How is God Most forgiving,Most loving???

It's easy for white middle Americans to say God is all loving, when they're never confronted with true suffering.

Imagine you live in a country struck by disease and poverty, where many babies never survive past birth. Where those that do survive are presented with God's "tests" of drug addiction, rape, gang warfare and the righteous path of virtual slavery.

Why are some people brought up in these wretched conditions, while others can sit happily living off the luxury resources provided from the sweat and misery of those they never have to see? What on earth does that say about an all loving God? He loves those who were worthy of being born in the right place?

[QUOTE="Hitman_887"][QUOTE="RazMaTaz-1"]

I dont understand, Prophet Muhammad went through far more difficulties than you and you are questioning if God is most forgiving? Life is a test, it consists of difficulties, and there are people half way across the world who are far worse difficulties then many of us in the forum. At end of the day, why should god pay attention to some likes of anyone around here as they deny or question their faith, or hell, dont nothing to spread the word of their faith?

Seems logical to me :|

RazMaTaz-1

Your point being? No one lives life as smooth as silk, their will be problems along the way. At the end of the day, muslims look at Prophet Muhammed as a Role model who also struggled more than everyone here, but that didnt make him lose focus of his religion in any sense, infact, it inspired him to strive more towards his religion. If people want to blame God for their life, then they are idiotic since they have the ability to correct the mishaps in life or work upon it. A person must be well spoilt if they want God to sort their lives out for them, same way a spoilt person relies completely on their parents wealth and knowledge, and then blaming them when its time to become independant . There are people half way across the world in far worse situations and we got people here who curse God over the most petty things in modern society. Everyone goes through difficulty many times in life, its a fact. If blaming God is a persons answer for having mishaps in life, then that person is a complete idiot.

Rapstar Nepolian, a part of outlawz, read up on his life story, and how bad it was. At the end of it all, end of his music career, he turned to Islam. Muhammad Ali turned to Islam, but now hes suffering from parkison disease, i guess he should blame god for that according some peoples mentality on this thread no? :|

I am a Muslim and I always read in the Quran that God is the Most merciful,Most forgiving,Most loving.My parents tell me that God loves you 10 times more than your own mother:? .It's a saying of Prophet Muhammad.

How is it then that I have to go through so many difficulties in my life?My mother would never even want the slightest pain to come in my life if it was under her control.How is God Most forgiving when so many people will apparantely go to Hell?How is God Most caring when life is so unfair?Some people are born downright ugly with no way around it,some people are born with not enough money to feed themselves.

Hitman_887

Im a Christian, so my words may not help you, but I think they could still apply. He is merciful in that even through man's greed, lust, deviations, wars, murders, perversions, so on, so on he still provides a means to escape the condemnation of man's nature (whether it be through Christ or whatever Muslims believe). I'm not looking for a debate (even though I could match and answer any question brought to me) because nothing is ever good enough for those who need proof. Even if proof was in front of them, they would explain it away even though they can't prove their beliefs to be true, and thus by definition, also believe what they believe through faith. Anyway, I answered and won't be returning to the thread.

It's easy for white middle Americans to say God is all loving, when they're never confronted with true suffering.

Imagine you live in a country struck by disease and poverty, where many babies never survive past birth. Where those that do survive are presented with God's "tests" of drug addiction, rape, gang warfare and the righteous path of virtual slavery.

Why are some people brought up in these wretched conditions, while others can sit happily living off the luxury resources provided from the sweat and misery of those they never have to see? What on earth does that say about an all loving God? He loves those who were worthy of being born in the right place?

jimmyjammer69

[QUOTE="RazMaTaz-1"][QUOTE="Hitman_887"][QUOTE="RazMaTaz-1"]

I dont understand, Prophet Muhammad went through far more difficulties than you and you are questioning if God is most forgiving? Life is a test, it consists of difficulties, and there are people half way across the world who are far worse difficulties then many of us in the forum. At end of the day, why should god pay attention to some likes of anyone around here as they deny or question their faith, or hell, dont nothing to spread the word of their faith?

Seems logical to me :|

Hitman_887

Your point being? No one lives life as smooth as silk, their will be problems along the way. At the end of the day, muslims look at Prophet Muhammed as a Role model who also struggled more than everyone here, but that didnt make him lose focus of his religion in any sense, infact, it inspired him to strive more towards his religion. If people want to blame God for their life, then they are idiotic since they have the ability to correct the mishaps in life or work upon it. A person must be well spoilt if they want God to sort their lives out for them, same way a spoilt person relies completely on their parents wealth and knowledge, and then blaming them when its time to become independant . There are people half way across the world in far worse situations and we got people here who curse God over the most petty things in modern society. Everyone goes through difficulty many times in life, its a fact. If blaming God is a persons answer for having mishaps in life, then that person is a complete idiot.

Rapstar Nepolian, a part of outlawz, read up on his life story, and how bad it was. At the end of it all, end of his music career, he turned to Islam. Muhammad Ali turned to Islam, but now hes suffering from parkison disease, i guess he should blame god for that according some peoples mentality on this thread no? :|

This life and all the shallow things in it , (money, looks) don't matter. This life is nothing compared to eternity.I'm out.

*Internet sarcasm noted*

RazMaTaz-1

"A follower of religion, you make it sound like a bad thing. If you think every religious person has been brainwashed by religion, then you seriously need to take a good look in the mirror as you are trying your upmost best to believe their isnt a God. If one beleives in God and all of a sudden when they die they aint a God, what have they got to lose out on? Nothing. If there was a God and all athiest were trying their upmost best to convince others there isnt a God, you are the ones that gonna be looking like total fools at the end of the day."

Well by that logic, if there is no God, you look like a fool for believing in one...

"You really think i am gonna take advice from a well known scientist? Might aswell believe in the Darwin Theory aswell :lol: ."

You don't have to take his advice, but that quote wasn't really about science. It was a simple idea which I and many others, atheists and theists alike agree on(and have realized on our own), which is that people have the ability to do good because they want to and believe it is right, not because they fear they will be punished in the afterlife. It seems blatant to me that being religious to "play it safe", which you said was your reason for being religious in your other post, is a selfish view and not a morally good one. With that view, you are "doing good" because you fear for your well being, which means you're ultimately doing it to save your own ass. That's why I think you are brainwashed. I do not think all religious followers are brainwashed, because some people want to do good and help others, and see whatever religion as a means to help promote and support doing good.

"Scientists try to provide info to debunk God, but failed miserably. We are in 2008 and yet there is no factual explanation of Big Bang. oo particals colided and bam, we manage to get a whole solar system that orbits in a perfect fashion :| Athiests take Science as their alternative explanation to how our world came about, so, you people are equally as deluded as those who believe in religion then. Even if we want to follow the religious books, what the hell is it to Atheists at the end of the day? If we want to live a moral life, then so be it."

An atheist can live a moral life as well. We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories. I do not take either of them as written in stone truth, in fact, I find both of them highly questionable, and believe we are not yet capable of truly explaining these things. "Scientists" used to believe the world was flat. Now we have proof that is not true. That being said, I do not believe in creationism or other religious explanations, I personally find them primitive and think they were thought up and followed by people to give them a reason for being. My cousin, who is one of my closest friends, is a devout catholic. I don't ridicule his beliefs or try to convince him that there isn't a god. I don't think he is stupid, that is what he was brought up believing and he is happy believing it and wants to do good to others. Your posts state that you remain part of Islam because you believe that if you don't, you may be punished and go to hell. This is why I even posted in the first place. I was raised by conservative catholics and had the same thoughts through my childhood, thinking that if I don't follow the bible and whatnot I will go to hell when I die, and followed out of fear. When I was 13 I asserted that I was an atheist. Some may refer to me as an agnostic, as I believe there is some reason for why the universe even exists, and a reason for morale. I don't believe the Quran or the Bible has the answers to these things. The belief in a higher power because of fear of punishment, like a parent controlling a child, is just primitive to me. You're obviously entitled to your own beliefs.

I am a Muslim and I always read in the Quran that God is the Most merciful,Most forgiving,Most loving.My parents tell me that God loves you 10 times more than your own mother:? .It's a saying of Prophet Muhammad.

How is it then that I have to go through so many difficulties in my life?My mother would never even want the slightest pain to come in my life if it was under her control.How is God Most forgiving when so many people will apparantely go to Hell?How is God Most caring when life is so unfair?Some people are born downright ugly with no way around it,some people are born with not enough money to feed themselves.

Hitman_887

wait.....whoever said going through pain and hard times is a bad thing?

Why are some people brought up in these wretched conditions, while others can sit happily living off the luxury resources provided from the sweat and misery of those they never have to see? What on earth does that say about an all loving God? He loves those who were worthy of being born in the right place?

jimmyjammer69

Good point.

Why are some people brought up in these wretched conditions, while others can sit happily living off the luxury resources provided from the sweat and misery of those they never have to see? What on earth does that say about an all loving God? He loves those who were worthy of being born in the right place?

jimmyjammer69

It comes back to the point that lifes a test. Dont you think people in those harsh conditions and die at early ages wont go to heaven? The Quran states that people who are in that condition will automatically go to heaven. Same applies for babies who die at early ages or die at birth. It would balance out with the people who are living in luxury, when god asks then what the hell you did with your time.

[QUOTE="feryl06"]He's like any other self righteous conceited person---it's all about me, love me or go to HELL. :)LJS9502_basic

So if you had a party.....the entire world could show up? Even those who despise you? Seems a bit simplistic your explanation does.

I am a Muslim and I always read in the Quran that God is the Most merciful,Most forgiving,Most loving.My parents tell me that God loves you 10 times more than your own mother:? .It's a saying of Prophet Muhammad.

How is it then that I have to go through so many difficulties in my life?My mother would never even want the slightest pain to come in my life if it was under her control.How is God Most forgiving when so many people will apparantely go to Hell?How is God Most caring when life is so unfair?Some people are born downright ugly with no way around it,some people are born with not enough money to feed themselves.

Hitman_887

that because there is no white guy in the sky ...... there is no one looking down at.... you ... Life has to be balanced for some stupid reason

We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories.

lostprodigy3141

Ugh... sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world who understands the meaning of the word theory.

[QUOTE="lostprodigy3141"]

We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories.

Funky_Llama

Ugh... sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world who understands the meaning of the word theory.

Do you feel special for knowing the difference between scientific theory and theory? Because that quote uses it properly. Scientific theories can be corrected. They explain scientific facts, they are not necessarily completely true and accurate. Fact and theory are not the same thing. Theories can be replaced or modified, as the Big Bang theory and Darwin's theory of the origin of humanity probably will be.

I am a Muslim and I always read in the Quran that God is the Most merciful,Most forgiving,Most loving.My parents tell me that God loves you 10 times more than your own mother:? .It's a saying of Prophet Muhammad.

How is it then that I have to go through so many difficulties in my life?My mother would never even want the slightest pain to come in my life if it was under her control.How is God Most forgiving when so many people will apparantely go to Hell?How is God Most caring when life is so unfair?Some people are born downright ugly with no way around it,some people are born with not enough money to feed themselves.

Hitman_887

You can't see how God is working in your life, but regardless, even if you can't see it, he is.

[QUOTE="lostprodigy3141"]

We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories.

Funky_Llama

Ugh... sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world who understands the meaning of the word theory.

I do too. "An explanation for some phenomenon that is based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning."

I am a Muslim and I always read in the Quran that God is the Most merciful,Most forgiving,Most loving.My parents tell me that God loves you 10 times more than your own mother:? .It's a saying of Prophet Muhammad.

How is it then that I have to go through so many difficulties in my life?My mother would never even want the slightest pain to come in my life if it was under her control.How is God Most forgiving when so many people will apparantely go to Hell?How is God Most caring when life is so unfair?Some people are born downright ugly with no way around it,some people are born with not enough money to feed themselves.

Hitman_887

1: God = God, he is your creator, I am pretty sure that God would love you more than your Mother.

2: It's life, deal with it. There would be no good in this world if there was no evil because good = opposite of evil and vice versa.

3: Homework can be a pain. Your Mother would most likely force you to do homework, so she WOULD cause you the slightest pain if you know what I mean.

4: Refer to "2"

5: Refer to "2"

6: That's life, buddy.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="lostprodigy3141"]

We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories.

lostprodigy3141

Ugh... sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world who understands the meaning of the word theory.

Do you feel special for knowing the difference between scientific theory and theory? Because that quote uses it properly. Scientific theories can be corrected. They explain scientific facts, they are not necessarily completely true and accurate. Fact and theory are not the same thing. Theories can be replaced or modified, as the Big Bang theory and Darwin's theory of the origin of humanity probably will be.

I never said all theories were fact. Straw man.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="lostprodigy3141"]

We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories.

Lansdowne5

Ugh... sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world who understands the meaning of the word theory.

I do too. "An explanation for some phenomenon that is based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning."

And yet you had to Google it. :P

[QUOTE="Hitman_887"]

I am a Muslim and I always read in the Quran that God is the Most merciful,Most forgiving,Most loving.My parents tell me that God loves you 10 times more than your own mother:? .It's a saying of Prophet Muhammad.

How is it then that I have to go through so many difficulties in my life?My mother would never even want the slightest pain to come in my life if it was under her control.How is God Most forgiving when so many people will apparantely go to Hell?How is God Most caring when life is so unfair?Some people are born downright ugly with no way around it,some people are born with not enough money to feed themselves.

Lansdowne5

You can't see how God is working in your life, but regardless, even if you can't see it, he is.

What kind of a counterargument is that? You address absolutely none of his points.

[QUOTE="lostprodigy3141"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="lostprodigy3141"]

We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories.

Funky_Llama

Ugh... sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world who understands the meaning of the word theory.

Do you feel special for knowing the difference between scientific theory and theory? Because that quote uses it properly. Scientific theories can be corrected. They explain scientific facts, they are not necessarily completely true and accurate. Fact and theory are not the same thing. Theories can be replaced or modified, as the Big Bang theory and Darwin's theory of the origin of humanity probably will be.

I never said all theories were fact. Straw man.

You tried to feel as if you were knowledgeable by basically saying I used the word theory improperly. I used it properly, and explained to you what the scientific theory was and why I used it correctly. That was the whole point.

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="Hitman_887"]

I am a Muslim and I always read in the Quran that God is the Most merciful,Most forgiving,Most loving.My parents tell me that God loves you 10 times more than your own mother:? .It's a saying of Prophet Muhammad.

How is it then that I have to go through so many difficulties in my life?My mother would never even want the slightest pain to come in my life if it was under her control.How is God Most forgiving when so many people will apparantely go to Hell?How is God Most caring when life is so unfair?Some people are born downright ugly with no way around it,some people are born with not enough money to feed themselves.

Funky_Llama

You can't see how God is working in your life, but regardless, even if you can't see it, he is.

What kind of a counterargument is that? You address absolutely none of his points.

It wasn't trying to. ;)

He's the boss. If he doesn't fire you, then you kiss his boots.vlin1108

Who? Alan Sugar?

[QUOTE="vlin1108"]He's the boss. If he doesn't fire you, then you kiss his boots.Lansdowne5

Who? Alan Sugar?

No man, I'm talking about the big cheese. He's the chief; he runs this show! You don't question him.

I don't think God, regardless of whether he/she exists or not doesn't, really effects the outcomes in the world except through our own psychology. I hear ppl thanking God for everything from sports games and bets to how they survived some ordeal. but i don't hear anyone damn God for them losing or ppl dying because of "Acts of God". if a religious man and an atheist flip coins i don't believe that the religious man would have any better chance of winning.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="lostprodigy3141"]

We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories.

lostprodigy3141

Ugh... sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world who understands the meaning of the word theory.

Do you feel special for knowing the difference between scientific theory and theory? Because that quote uses it properly. Scientific theories can be corrected. They explain scientific facts, they are not necessarily completely true and accurate. Fact and theory are not the same thing. Theories can be replaced or modified, as the Big Bang theory and Darwin's theory of the origin of humanity probably will be.

An atheist can live a moral life as well. We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories. I do not take either of them as written in stone truth, in fact, I find both of them highly questionable, and believe we are not yet capable of truly explaining these things. "Scientists" used to believe the world was flat. Now we have proof that is not true. That being said, I do not believe in creationism or other religious explanations, I personally find them primitive and think they were thought up and followed by people to give them a reason for being. My cousin, who is one of my closest friends, is a devout catholic. I don't ridicule his beliefs or try to convince him that there isn't a god. I don't think he is stupid, that is what he was brought up believing and he is happy believing it and wants to do good to others. Your posts state that you remain part of Islam because you believe that if you don't, you may be punished and go to hell. This is why I even posted in the first place. I was raised by conservative catholics and had the same thoughts through my childhood, thinking that if I don't follow the bible and whatnot I will go to hell when I die, and followed out of fear. When I was 13 I asserted that I was an atheist. Some may refer to me as an agnostic, as I believe there is some reason for why the universe even exists, and a reason for morale. I don't believe the Quran or the Bible has the answers to these things. The belief in a higher power because of fear of punishment, like a parent controlling a child, is just primitive to me. You're obviously entitled to your own beliefs.

===============================================================

Well, you are entitled for your oppinion. If one doesnt believe in scientific theorys of evolutions nor the belief that God created the universe, what can we exactly believe then? Even though an athiest might live a good life, but what can you consider "good" in terms of atheism terms? what draws the line between the Good deeds and Bad deeds? Apart from the obvious like murder and what not, how about the little things like "no sex before marriage", or "no gf". Its stuff like that that seperates the moral athiests to moral muslims/catholics and what not. Those are just 2 things ive mentioned, and i can list alot more that distinguish atheists "good" or "neutral" to Islam/Christan good. Things like that may consider petty and stupid to modern day society, but countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia, you get shot for that kind of stuff or stoned to death. Again, stoning is something people thing "wtf harsh", but im sure back during Prophet muhammad days, this stuff was perfectly Normal. Its society thats changed that make us question religion. Its scientists that propose bogus theories that try to Invalidats God existance, even though they have miserably failed. Theres one million different oppinions of God existance anyways. Buddhists just believe in a simple easy life which i admire, abrahamic religions like islam and christianity believe in reference to one god, atheiest believe no god and strongly believe it, hinduism believe in many gods. I am sticking to my religion, and we will only find out the truth eschatologically.

\thread

[QUOTE="RazMaTaz-1"] lostprodigy3141

"A follower of religion, you make it sound like a bad thing. If you think every religious person has been brainwashed by religion, then you seriously need to take a good look in the mirror as you are trying your upmost best to believe their isnt a God. If one beleives in God and all of a sudden when they die they aint a God, what have they got to lose out on? Nothing. If there was a God and all athiest were trying their upmost best to convince others there isnt a God, you are the ones that gonna be looking like total fools at the end of the day."

Well by that logic, if there is no God, you look like a fool for believing in one...

"You really think i am gonna take advice from a well known scientist? Might aswell believe in the Darwin Theory aswell :lol: ."

You don't have to take his advice, but that quote wasn't really about science. It was a simple idea which I and many others, atheists and theists alike agree on(and have realized on our own), which is that people have the ability to do good because they want to and believe it is right, not because they fear they will be punished in the afterlife. It seems blatant to me that being religious to "play it safe", which you said was your reason for being religious in your other post, is a selfish view and not a morally good one. With that view, you are "doing good" because you fear for your well being, which means you're ultimately doing it to save your own ass. That's why I think you are brainwashed. I do not think all religious followers are brainwashed, because some people want to do good and help others, and see whatever religion as a means to help promote and support doing good.

"Scientists try to provide info to debunk God, but failed miserably. We are in 2008 and yet there is no factual explanation of Big Bang. oo particals colided and bam, we manage to get a whole solar system that orbits in a perfect fashion :| Athiests take Science as their alternative explanation to how our world came about, so, you people are equally as deluded as those who believe in religion then. Even if we want to follow the religious books, what the hell is it to Atheists at the end of the day? If we want to live a moral life, then so be it."

An atheist can live a moral life as well. We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories. I do not take either of them as written in stone truth, in fact, I find both of them highly questionable, and believe we are not yet capable of truly explaining these things. "Scientists" used to believe the world was flat. Now we have proof that is not true. That being said, I do not believe in creationism or other religious explanations, I personally find them primitive and think they were thought up and followed by people to give them a reason for being. My cousin, who is one of my closest friends, is a devout catholic. I don't ridicule his beliefs or try to convince him that there isn't a god. I don't think he is stupid, that is what he was brought up believing and he is happy believing it and wants to do good to others. Your posts state that you remain part of Islam because you believe that if you don't, you may be punished and go to hell. This is why I even posted in the first place. I was raised by conservative catholics and had the same thoughts through my childhood, thinking that if I don't follow the bible and whatnot I will go to hell when I die, and followed out of fear. When I was 13 I asserted that I was an atheist. Some may refer to me as an agnostic, as I believe there is some reason for why the universe even exists, and a reason for morale. I don't believe the Quran or the Bible has the answers to these things. The belief in a higher power because of fear of punishment, like a parent controlling a child, is just primitive to me. You're obviously entitled to your own beliefs.

RazMaTaz-1, you ignored the first half of my response. (There are 3 responses in the above post)

An atheist can live a moral life as well. We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories. I do not take either of them as written in stone truth, in fact, I find both of them highly questionable, and believe we are not yet capable of truly explaining these things. "Scientists" used to believe the world was flat. Now we have proof that is not true. That being said, I do not believe in creationism or other religious explanations, I personally find them primitive and think they were thought up and followed by people to give them a reason for being. My cousin, who is one of my closest friends, is a devout catholic. I don't ridicule his beliefs or try to convince him that there isn't a god. I don't think he is stupid, that is what he was brought up believing and he is happy believing it and wants to do good to others. Your posts state that you remain part of Islam because you believe that if you don't, you may be punished and go to hell. This is why I even posted in the first place. I was raised by conservative catholics and had the same thoughts through my childhood, thinking that if I don't follow the bible and whatnot I will go to hell when I die, and followed out of fear. When I was 13 I asserted that I was an atheist. Some may refer to me as an agnostic, as I believe there is some reason for why the universe even exists, and a reason for morale. I don't believe the Quran or the Bible has the answers to these things. The belief in a higher power because of fear of punishment, like a parent controlling a child, is just primitive to me. You're obviously entitled to your own beliefs.

===============================================================

Well, you are entitled for your oppinion. If one doesnt believe in scientific theorys of evolutions nor the belief that God created the universe, what can we exactly believe then? Even though an athiest might live a good life, but what can you consider "good" in terms of atheism terms? what draws the line between the Good deeds and Bad deeds? Apart from the obvious like murder and what not, how about the little things like "no sex before marriage", or "no gf". Its stuff like that that seperates the moral athiests to moral muslims/catholics and what not. Those are just 2 things ive mentioned, and i can list alot more that distinguish atheists "good" or "neutral" to Islam/Christan good. Things like that may consider petty and stupid to modern day society, but countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia, you get shot for that kind of stuff or stoned to death. Again, stoning is something people thing "wtf harsh", but im sure back during Prophet muhammad days, this stuff was perfectly Normal. Its society thats changed that make us question religion. Its scientists that propose bogus theories that try to Invalidats God existance, even though they have miserably failed. Theres one million different oppinions of God existance anyways. Buddhists just believe in a simple easy life which i admire, abrahamic religions like islam and christianity believe in reference to one god, atheiest believe no god and strongly believe it, hinduism believe in many gods. I am sticking to my religion, and we will only find out the truth eschatologically.

\thread

RazMaTaz-1

Are you saying you believe barbaric acts like that are humane and just punishments for sex before marriage and such?

It's easy for white middle Americans to say God is all loving, when they're never confronted with true suffering.

Imagine you live in a country struck by disease and poverty, where many babies never survive past birth. Where those that do survive are presented with God's "tests" of drug addiction, rape, gang warfare and the righteous path of virtual slavery.

Why are some people brought up in these wretched conditions, while others can sit happily living off the luxury resources provided from the sweat and misery of those they never have to see? What on earth does that say about an all loving God? He loves those who were worthy of being born in the right place?

jimmyjammer69

Actually, many of these "horrible countries" are more religious than America. Come to think of it, the UK, Canada, US, France, and Germany all have a growing atheistic community. So by your logic, wouldn't that mean that it is easy to not believe in a God when you have never confronted true suffering:?. The people who go through the most suffering tend to be more religious than the 1st world countries. Just goes to show you that it is easy to deny God when you live a perfect cozy life and when you take everything he does for you for granted.

That's the point. If it's impossible, then God cannot cause there to be God without evil.

Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

1. It's relevant, because, if you remember...

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

God is omnipotent... he could make it so that evil is not necessary for good to exist, right?Funky_Llama

2. I don't see how suffering is necessary to be humans. I suppose Adam and Eve weren't human before Original Sin, then.

1. No....it's still not relevant because as I stated omnipotency has nothing to do with definitions. You can't have one extreme without the other. It's impossible.

2. Before the first of mankind sinned? And? They were put on earth in a human condition. I'm dealing with humans as we know them.

1. And that contradicts omnipotence. If God is omnipotent, he could make it so that you can have good without evil. If that is indeed impossible for God, he's not omnipotent. So your solution to the problem of evil (that you can't have good without evil), and the concept of an omnipotent God, are mutually exclusive. And since you do believe in an omnipotent God, your solution to the problem of evil cannot, therefore, be correct.

2. What kind of a counterargument is that? They were humans, and they had not suffered, therefore suffering is not necessary to be human.

Were they human? Can your prove that?

I used the idea of an omnipotent being as a premise in my argument. It is linked logically to the argument's conclusion. It's not irrelevant.

:roll: Just don't. You know Adam and Eve were humans. I know Adam and Eve were humans. Don't even bother going down that route.

In fact, you are incorrect. God did create adam and eve as perfect beings. As long as they followed his rules, which they did not, they would remain immortal. But when they partook of the fruit and were cast out. They discovered mortality and eventually led to the discovery of sex. So, in fact, had they not committed original sin, we would not exist b/c adam and eve never would have discovered sexuality

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]

Why are some people brought up in these wretched conditions, while others can sit happily living off the luxury resources provided from the sweat and misery of those they never have to see? What on earth does that say about an all loving God? He loves those who were worthy of being born in the right place?

Persecuted_1

Good point.

not really, you are looking at what a world, that man shaped, made the "poor". When god sent their spirit down to join the physical body he loves them and everytime he does it is another miracle. but what happens after that body has a spirit is the doing of the world. not god. if he meddled with every detail he wouldn't be giving us the teftf in life we need. Bill Gates is filthy rich and has HIS OWN charity foundation. The rich and poor become what they make themselves and what they let the world make of them.

[QUOTE="RazMaTaz-1"]

An atheist can live a moral life as well. We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories. I do not take either of them as written in stone truth, in fact, I find both of them highly questionable, and believe we are not yet capable of truly explaining these things. "Scientists" used to believe the world was flat. Now we have proof that is not true. That being said, I do not believe in creationism or other religious explanations, I personally find them primitive and think they were thought up and followed by people to give them a reason for being. My cousin, who is one of my closest friends, is a devout catholic. I don't ridicule his beliefs or try to convince him that there isn't a god. I don't think he is stupid, that is what he was brought up believing and he is happy believing it and wants to do good to others. Your posts state that you remain part of Islam because you believe that if you don't, you may be punished and go to hell. This is why I even posted in the first place. I was raised by conservative catholics and had the same thoughts through my childhood, thinking that if I don't follow the bible and whatnot I will go to hell when I die, and followed out of fear. When I was 13 I asserted that I was an atheist. Some may refer to me as an agnostic, as I believe there is some reason for why the universe even exists, and a reason for morale. I don't believe the Quran or the Bible has the answers to these things. The belief in a higher power because of fear of punishment, like a parent controlling a child, is just primitive to me. You're obviously entitled to your own beliefs.

===============================================================

Well, you are entitled for your oppinion. If one doesnt believe in scientific theorys of evolutions nor the belief that God created the universe, what can we exactly believe then? Even though an athiest might live a good life, but what can you consider "good" in terms of atheism terms? what draws the line between the Good deeds and Bad deeds? Apart from the obvious like murder and what not, how about the little things like "no sex before marriage", or "no gf". Its stuff like that that seperates the moral athiests to moral muslims/catholics and what not. Those are just 2 things ive mentioned, and i can list alot more that distinguish atheists "good" or "neutral" to Islam/Christan good. Things like that may consider petty and stupid to modern day society, but countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia, you get shot for that kind of stuff or stoned to death. Again, stoning is something people thing "wtf harsh", but im sure back during Prophet muhammad days, this stuff was perfectly Normal. Its society thats changed that make us question religion. Its scientists that propose bogus theories that try to Invalidats God existance, even though they have miserably failed. Theres one million different oppinions of God existance anyways. Buddhists just believe in a simple easy life which i admire, abrahamic religions like islam and christianity believe in reference to one god, atheiest believe no god and strongly believe it, hinduism believe in many gods. I am sticking to my religion, and we will only find out the truth eschatologically.

\thread

lostprodigy3141

Are you saying you believe barbaric acts like that are humane and just punishments for sex before marriage and such?

I dont believe in barbaric acts, i think its very harsh how people get treated when they end up commiting sex in these countries, but if you know the rules, why do it? Its the lack of self control that gets you shot in those countries. Very rarely people get shot in those countries because they are fully aware of the rule. I do however think disapline is needed, but one thing that annoys meabout modern society is that if a parent hits a kid, that kid has full right on phoning the police and getting jailed for or fined for. Its pathetic. People getting punished for the wrong reasons why in other religious countries they get punished for the right reasons(matter of oppinion). Rules are there for a reason in religion, same way countries have government law. Again, this is what i believe, and its something i will stick to.

[QUOTE="lostprodigy3141"][QUOTE="RazMaTaz-1"]

An atheist can live a moral life as well. We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories. I do not take either of them as written in stone truth, in fact, I find both of them highly questionable, and believe we are not yet capable of truly explaining these things. "Scientists" used to believe the world was flat. Now we have proof that is not true. That being said, I do not believe in creationism or other religious explanations, I personally find them primitive and think they were thought up and followed by people to give them a reason for being. My cousin, who is one of my closest friends, is a devout catholic. I don't ridicule his beliefs or try to convince him that there isn't a god. I don't think he is stupid, that is what he was brought up believing and he is happy believing it and wants to do good to others. Your posts state that you remain part of Islam because you believe that if you don't, you may be punished and go to hell. This is why I even posted in the first place. I was raised by conservative catholics and had the same thoughts through my childhood, thinking that if I don't follow the bible and whatnot I will go to hell when I die, and followed out of fear. When I was 13 I asserted that I was an atheist. Some may refer to me as an agnostic, as I believe there is some reason for why the universe even exists, and a reason for morale. I don't believe the Quran or the Bible has the answers to these things. The belief in a higher power because of fear of punishment, like a parent controlling a child, is just primitive to me. You're obviously entitled to your own beliefs.

===============================================================

Well, you are entitled for your oppinion. If one doesnt believe in scientific theorys of evolutions nor the belief that God created the universe, what can we exactly believe then? Even though an athiest might live a good life, but what can you consider "good" in terms of atheism terms? what draws the line between the Good deeds and Bad deeds? Apart from the obvious like murder and what not, how about the little things like "no sex before marriage", or "no gf". Its stuff like that that seperates the moral athiests to moral muslims/catholics and what not. Those are just 2 things ive mentioned, and i can list alot more that distinguish atheists "good" or "neutral" to Islam/Christan good. Things like that may consider petty and stupid to modern day society, but countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia, you get shot for that kind of stuff or stoned to death. Again, stoning is something people thing "wtf harsh", but im sure back during Prophet muhammad days, this stuff was perfectly Normal. Its society thats changed that make us question religion. Its scientists that propose bogus theories that try to Invalidats God existance, even though they have miserably failed. Theres one million different oppinions of God existance anyways. Buddhists just believe in a simple easy life which i admire, abrahamic religions like islam and christianity believe in reference to one god, atheiest believe no god and strongly believe it, hinduism believe in many gods. I am sticking to my religion, and we will only find out the truth eschatologically.

\thread

RazMaTaz-1

Are you saying you believe barbaric acts like that are humane and just punishments for sex before marriage and such?

I dont believe in barbaric acts, i think its very harsh how people get treated when they end up commiting sex in these countries, but if you know the rules, why do it? Its the lack of self control that gets you shot in those countries. Very rarely people get shot in those countries because they are fully aware of the rule. I do however think disapline is needed, but one thing that annoys meabout modern society is that if a parent hits a kid, that kid has full right on phoning the police and getting jailed for or fined for. Its pathetic. People getting punished for the wrong reasons why in other religious countries they get punished for the right reasons(matter of oppinion). Rules are there for a reason in religion, same way countries have government law. Again, this is what i believe, and its something i will stick to.

So... do you believe that the laws of a country should be influenced by a religion(spefically your religion, Islam)?

lostprodigy3141

So... do you believe that the laws of a country should be influenced by a religion(spefically your religion, Islam)?

It states in the bible that Man must obey the laws of the land first if they are to be able to worship Him. In essence you can do a lot more good to thid world and to god OUTSIDE of prison. So He said they (religious "laws" and country laws) are different.

[QUOTE="lostprodigy3141"][QUOTE="MunkeySpunk92"]

MunkeySpunk92

So... do you believe that the laws of a country should be influenced by a religion(spefically your religion, Islam)?

It states in the bible that Man must obey the laws of the land first if they are to be able to worship Him. In essence you can do a lot more good to thid world and to god OUTSIDE of prison. So He said they (religious "laws" and country laws) are different.

The bible... are you referring to the Quran?

[QUOTE="lostprodigy3141"][QUOTE="RazMaTaz-1"]

An atheist can live a moral life as well. We are obviously very primitive in terms of understanding the universe, theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are just that: theories. I do not take either of them as written in stone truth, in fact, I find both of them highly questionable, and believe we are not yet capable of truly explaining these things. "Scientists" used to believe the world was flat. Now we have proof that is not true. That being said, I do not believe in creationism or other religious explanations, I personally find them primitive and think they were thought up and followed by people to give them a reason for being. My cousin, who is one of my closest friends, is a devout catholic. I don't ridicule his beliefs or try to convince him that there isn't a god. I don't think he is stupid, that is what he was brought up believing and he is happy believing it and wants to do good to others. Your posts state that you remain part of Islam because you believe that if you don't, you may be punished and go to hell. This is why I even posted in the first place. I was raised by conservative catholics and had the same thoughts through my childhood, thinking that if I don't follow the bible and whatnot I will go to hell when I die, and followed out of fear. When I was 13 I asserted that I was an atheist. Some may refer to me as an agnostic, as I believe there is some reason for why the universe even exists, and a reason for morale. I don't believe the Quran or the Bible has the answers to these things. The belief in a higher power because of fear of punishment, like a parent controlling a child, is just primitive to me. You're obviously entitled to your own beliefs.

===============================================================

Well, you are entitled for your oppinion. If one doesnt believe in scientific theorys of evolutions nor the belief that God created the universe, what can we exactly believe then? Even though an athiest might live a good life, but what can you consider "good" in terms of atheism terms? what draws the line between the Good deeds and Bad deeds? Apart from the obvious like murder and what not, how about the little things like "no sex before marriage", or "no gf". Its stuff like that that seperates the moral athiests to moral muslims/catholics and what not. Those are just 2 things ive mentioned, and i can list alot more that distinguish atheists "good" or "neutral" to Islam/Christan good. Things like that may consider petty and stupid to modern day society, but countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia, you get shot for that kind of stuff or stoned to death. Again, stoning is something people thing "wtf harsh", but im sure back during Prophet muhammad days, this stuff was perfectly Normal. Its society thats changed that make us question religion. Its scientists that propose bogus theories that try to Invalidats God existance, even though they have miserably failed. Theres one million different oppinions of God existance anyways. Buddhists just believe in a simple easy life which i admire, abrahamic religions like islam and christianity believe in reference to one god, atheiest believe no god and strongly believe it, hinduism believe in many gods. I am sticking to my religion, and we will only find out the truth eschatologically.

\thread

RazMaTaz-1

Are you saying you believe barbaric acts like that are humane and just punishments for sex before marriage and such?

I dont believe in barbaric acts, i think its very harsh how people get treated when they end up commiting sex in these countries, but if you know the rules, why do it? Its the lack of self control that gets you shot in those countries. Very rarely people get shot in those countries because they are fully aware of the rule. I do however think disapline is needed, but one thing that annoys meabout modern society is that if a parent hits a kid, that kid has full right on phoning the police and getting jailed for or fined for. Its pathetic. People getting punished for the wrong reasons why in other religious countries they get punished for the right reasons(matter of oppinion). Rules are there for a reason in religion, same way countries have government law. Again, this is what i believe, and its something i will stick to.

Well by that logic, if there is no God, you look like a fool for believing in onelostprodigy3141

not really because you will be dead. If there is no god, they is no predestination, hence, you wont feel a thing once you are dead.

You don't have to take his advice, but that quote wasn't really about science. It was a simple idea which I and many others, atheists and theists alike agree on(and have realized on our own), which is that people have the ability to do good because they want to and believe it is right, not because they fear they will be punished in the afterlife. It seems blatant to me that being religious to "play it safe", which you said was your reason for being religious in your other post, is a selfish view and not a morally good one. With that view, you are "doing good" because you fear for your well being, which means you're ultimately doing it to save your own ass. That's why I think you are brainwashed. I do not think all religious followers are brainwashed, because some people want to do good and help others, and see whatever religion as a means to help promote and support doing good.lostprodigy3141

Are you drawing conclusions from your backside about me? I do alot for charity. I was born in a muslim family and i dont do good deeds so i can save my ass from the next life, i do it from my heart. Also, I try to do my upmost best in this life from a religious and non religious view. If a person wants to play safe just cuz hes scared of the next life, wud that be so wrong? I dont think so. Well Mr Macho man, if you really believe there isnt a god, then so be it. You can argue with me or debate with me all you want but neither of us gonna change eachothers mind. As i said above, you wont know until we are dead, hence, eschatologically so none of us should be drawing conclusions from our ass because its just a base of oppinion, not facts.

end of!

[QUOTE="lostprodigy3141"]Well by that logic, if there is no God, you look like a fool for believing in oneRazMaTaz-1

not really because you will be dead. If there is no god, they is no predestination, hence, you wont feel a thing once you are dead.RazMaTaz-1

If it was ever a proven there wasn't a God, you would look like a fool. But this is a childish arguement that you started, so I'll just drop it.

You don't have to take his advice, but that quote wasn't really about science. It was a simple idea which I and many others, atheists and theists alike agree on(and have realized on our own), which is that people have the ability to do good because they want to and believe it is right, not because they fear they will be punished in the afterlife. It seems blatant to me that being religious to "play it safe", which you said was your reason for being religious in your other post, is a selfish view and not a morally good one. With that view, you are "doing good" because you fear for your well being, which means you're ultimately doing it to save your own ass. That's why I think you are brainwashed. I do not think all religious followers are brainwashed, because some people want to do good and help others, and see whatever religion as a means to help promote and support doing good.lostprodigy3141

Are you drawing conclusions from your backside about me? I do alot for charity. I was born in a muslim family and i dont do good deeds so i can save my ass from the next life, i do it from my heart. Also, I try to do my upmost best in this life from a religious and non religious view. If a person wants to play safe just cuz hes scared of the next life, wud that be so wrong? I dont think so. Well Mr Macho man, if you really believe there isnt a god, then so be it. You can argue with me or debate with me all you want but neither of us gonna change eachothers mind. Im done with this topicRazMaTaz-1

I think you know very well where I am drawin conclusions from. I don't know you, so where would I learn about you? From what you post on here. Your stated motivation for doing good and following the Quran was why I even posted in this topic in the first place. Here are some of the things you said that directly contradict what you are saying now:

"I rather be safe and become a good muslim, then become an atheist and believe there is no god because what happens one day the events of the Quran become a reality? You are gonna be sitting there thinking "oh crap"."

"If we just born,live, and die, what purpose is there to life? Just to have FUN? have education, have sex, have kids, and die? no, life aint about taht. You might aswell Sin your buts off it that was the case "

"You dont understand that everyone will be sinful on the day of judgement unless they died at Hajj. So they will get punished in the grave, on day of judgment, and/or in hell."

And I don't get why you're angry as if we are competing against something. If you read my previous posts you would see that I've said you are entitled to your own beliefs, I respect religious beliefs, and your reasons for doing so were what bothered me. Did you fully read my last post? Calling me "Mr Macho man" as if I'm trying to win the argument that there is no god is drifting away from the actual arguement, come on. I still believe you are brainwashed, but you're probably very young, and maybe your views will change as you get older. Your supposed support of a country's laws and the laws of a religion being together also disturbed me, expecially you saying "you know the rules why do it" about those countries. I don't know where you're from, but the uncivilized and barbaric acts that are committed in these countries in the name of Islam is what bothers me most about your religion.

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]

It's easy for white middle Americans to say God is all loving, when they're never confronted with true suffering.

Imagine you live in a country struck by disease and poverty, where many babies never survive past birth. Where those that do survive are presented with God's "tests" of drug addiction, rape, gang warfare and the righteous path of virtual slavery.

Why are some people brought up in these wretched conditions, while others can sit happily living off the luxury resources provided from the sweat and misery of those they never have to see? What on earth does that say about an all loving God? He loves those who were worthy of being born in the right place?

Redneck33

Actually, many of these "horrible countries" are more religious than America. Come to think of it, the UK, Canada, US, France, and Germany all have a growing atheistic community. So by your logic, wouldn't that mean that it is easy to not believe in a God when you have never confronted true suffering:?. The people who go through the most suffering tend to be more religious than the 1st world countries. Just goes to show you that it is easy to deny God when you live a perfect cozy life and when you take everything he does for you for granted.

I'm not arguing about belief in a God, I'm making the point that it's easy to dismiss suffering on Earth if we say "Oh well, as long as the sufferer believed in God and turned the other cheek, he's off to a life of infinite happiness". No, suffering is all the more tragic if this is the only life. Doesn't this reasoning make it infinitely more crucial to prevent eg. torture?

While I'm at it...these suffering as a test arguments never made any sense to me. Sure, it's not for us mere mortals to understand the ways of an omniscient being, but why on earth (or heaven) would an omniscient being need to test our mettle? Being omniscient, surely he already knows your strength of character without the need to introduce suffering.

["I rather be safe and become a good muslim, then become an atheist and believe there is no god because what happens one day the events of the Quran become a reality? You are gonna be sitting there thinking "oh crap"."

"If we just born,live, and die, what purpose is there to life? Just to have FUN? have education, have sex, have kids, and die? no, life aint about taht. You might aswell Sin your buts off it that was the case "

"You dont understand that everyone will be sinful on the day of judgement unless they died at Hajj. So they will get punished in the grave, on day of judgment, and/or in hell."

And I don't get why you're angry as if we are competing against something. If you read my previous posts you would see that I've said you are entitled to your own beliefs, I respect religious beliefs, and your reasons for doing so were what bothered me. Did you fully read my last post? Calling me "Mr Macho man" as if I'm trying to win the argument that there is no god is drifting away from the actual arguement, come on. I still believe you are brainwashed, but you're probably very young, and maybe your views will change as you get older. Your supposed support of a country's laws and the laws of a religion being together also disturbed me, expecially you saying "you know the rules why do it" about those countries. I don't know where you're from, but the uncivilized and barbaric acts that are committed in these countries in the name of Islam is what bothers me most about your religion.

lostprodigy3141

na dude, dont get me wrong i wasnt getting angry lol. I amactually getting married in a few months, so i aint younger then you think :P but yeah, lets just say that "religion" completes me. I know if i was an atheist, i would want my life to be meaning ful, hence, i would like to go out and study for a religion, same way people like Muhammad Ali and Nepolian and Malcom X did. Im the kind of guy that stick by rules, im a goodie 2 shoes if you wanna call it that lol. I have had a very tough bringing up with alot of deaths and stuff in family, hence why i stick firmly to my religion. I tend to throw alot of random crap out and about, so i probz did that with the above post about the macho thing lol :P but yeah, i was just speaking in terms of athiest views, that wouldnt it be more beneficial to believe in god and do good stuff then be an athiest and do good stuff? I only interpreted that way(the above u quoted me on) to make it sound convincing. If i started to refer to Quranic quotes, it would be less convincing. None of us know what lies after death, and we will only know eschatalogically. Even if there wasnt a god, i would be happy enough to die thinking i did the best i could potentially :)

na dude, dont get me wrong i wasnt getting angry lol. I amactually getting married in a few months, so i aint younger then you think :P but yeah, lets just say that "religion" completes me. I know if i was an atheist, i would want my life to be meaning ful, hence, i would like to go out and study for a religion, same way people like Muhammad Ali and Nepolian and Malcom X did. Im the kind of guy that stick by rules, im a goodie 2 shoes if you wanna call it that lol. I have had a very tough bringing up with alot of deaths and stuff in family, hence why i stick firmly to my religion. I tend to throw alot of random crap out and about, so i probz did that with the above post about the macho thing lol :P but yeah, i was just speaking in terms of athiest views, that wouldnt it be more beneficial to believe in god and do good stuff then be an athiest and do good stuff? I only interpreted that way(the above u quoted me on) to make it sound convincing. If i started to refer to Quranic quotes, it would be less convincing. None of us know what lies after death, and we will only know eschatalogically. Even if there wasnt a god, i would be happy enough to die thinking i did the best i could potentially :)

RazMaTaz-1

I'm an atheist, but I have agnostic views. I usually don't refer to myself as an agnostic because people seem to stereotype that you're open to the idea of one of the many religions, and you're not sure and may one day convert to one of them. I believe in something more than the physical universe, and as I've said before, I believe there is a reason for things like morale, and why the universe even exists. I study religion, I've taken many classes, and while interesting, the idea of literally believing in one of them seems ridiculous to me. But all the religions started off and shared the same basic beliefs of peace, that's what the original founders wanted(Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha). But hey, if you're happy with your religion, as long as you're trying to do good and not hurting anyone, then there's no harm in it. One more question: Are you an American?

[QUOTE="Persecuted_1"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]

Why are some people brought up in these wretched conditions, while others can sit happily living off the luxury resources provided from the sweat and misery of those they never have to see? What on earth does that say about an all loving God? He loves those who were worthy of being born in the right place?

MunkeySpunk92

Good point.

not really, you are looking at what a world, that man shaped, made the "poor". When god sent their spirit down to join the physical body he loves them and everytime he does it is another miracle. but what happens after that body has a spirit is the doing of the world. not god. if he meddled with every detail he wouldn't be giving us the teftf in life we need. Bill Gates is filthy rich and has HIS OWN charity foundation. The rich and poor become what they make themselves and what they let the world make of them.

I don't see how hiding under the covers is going to help you. You're completely oblivious to reality, aren't you. Many people are born into poverty with no way out. Look at third world countries. What the hell are you talking about when you say, "The rich and poor become what they make themselves and what they let the world make of them."?