I don't get it...why would god punish us for his own mistakes?

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-Wicked_Sick-

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#251 -Wicked_Sick-
Member since 2007 • 1171 Posts

Twice more LJS - the unmentionable word again?

We were discussing Gods forgiveness of murderers and the damnation of non-believers. I was illustrating an argument based on fairness. If you want to wildly distort our earlier exchanges, I'm glad one of us remains that knows what happened.

You have not described the relevence of the parable or its significance to this debate. You have only said that it busts my argument (I assume the one about fairness) without explaining why (again).

You can wait all you like, but I've already answered that question of yours in an earlier post. Perhaps you were so eager to reply that you forgot to read it.

RationalAtheist

I read the thread and you brought up animals. Not LJ. And you didn't give an answer to his question.

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RationalAtheist

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#252 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

If I create a world, and it falls apart, whose fault would it be? Mine, since it would be my project and I would be in complete control of everything that goes into it.

-Wicked_Sick-

If you created sentient life, and that sentient life made your world fall apart, who's fault would that be? Theirs, because they ruined it, not you.

Yours, seeing as they are your responsibility. If I owned a dog (as I do), I am responsible for the actions of the dog.

If the dog bites someone, it's my fault for not training or restraining the dog appropriately.

Dogs are not people.:|

Neither is "sentient life", or divinities.

And here comes the smiley - :roll:

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Dracargen

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#253 Dracargen
Member since 2007 • 7928 Posts

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

HEre's a better analogy:

You raise a son. He becomes a murderer.

Should you go to jail for his crime?

RationalAtheist

That depends onthe age of criminal responsibility. In the UK, if he is under 12, the parents would be prosecuted.

Well, Adam and Eve were 930, so I think the UK will let God off on this one.

In humans, sons are independent of their parents and parents have no responsibility over the actions of their offspring.

DING DING DING!! You seem to have gotten the answer, though I anticipate a "But" somewhere up ahead. . .

It's also true that crimial behaviour is learned, so in many cases, parents do have some responsibility in the crimes of their children.

Criminal behavior is learned, but not necessarily from their parents. ;) You learn more about criminal behavior from school and the news than your parents, in normal cases.

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RationalAtheist

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#254 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Twice more LJS - the unmentionable word again?

We were discussing Gods forgiveness of murderers and the damnation of non-believers. I was illustrating an argument based on fairness. If you want to wildly distort our earlier exchanges, I'm glad one of us remains that knows what happened.

You have not described the relevence of the parable or its significance to this debate. You have only said that it busts my argument (I assume the one about fairness) without explaining why (again).

You can wait all you like, but I've already answered that question of yours in an earlier post. Perhaps you were so eager to reply that you forgot to read it.

-Wicked_Sick-

I read the thread and you brought up animals. Not LJ. And you didn't give an answer to his question.

Did you read this post?

Are you the judge and the jury? What have yuou to say about the link I give you in my humble defense?

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LJS9502_basic

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#255 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180145 Posts

Twice more LJS - the unmentionable word again?

We were discussing Gods forgiveness of murderers and the damnation of non-believers. I was illustrating an argument based on fairness. If you want to wildly distort our earlier exchanges, I'm glad one of us remains that knows what happened.

You have not described the relevence of the parable or its significance to this debate. You have only said that it busts my argument (I assume the one about fairness) without explaining why (again).

You can wait all you like, but I've already answered that question of yours in an earlier post. Perhaps you were so eager to reply that you forgot to read it.

RationalAtheist

Finally after how many pages it sinks in. Yay!

If you are discussing God as perceived in the Bible...and you are...then the Bible is the criteria. Could you discuss a pitcher without using his stats? Not effectively. This line of reasoning is not in the least rational.

I didn't notice unless you count that lukewarm response that athesits could still want to be with God. That is illogical and didn't answer why anyway.

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-Wicked_Sick-

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#256 -Wicked_Sick-
Member since 2007 • 1171 Posts

Did you read this post?

Are you the judge and the jury? What have yuou to say about the link I give you in my humble defense?

RationalAtheist

It skirted the issue.

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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#257 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts
To the TC, "I don't get it". So in other words, if god is truly an omnipotent, omniscient, and infinite being, you would expect to completely understand this being and its actions? I don't know if god exists or not, but I can accept that my knowledge of such things is limited and finite. There many things in the world and universe that I can't quite comprehend - there's no beginning or end to time, there's no end to the universe, where did matter come from, etc.
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RationalAtheist

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#258 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

HEre's a better analogy:

You raise a son. He becomes a murderer.

Should you go to jail for his crime?

Dracargen

That depends onthe age of criminal responsibility. In the UK, if he is under 12, the parents would be prosecuted.

Well, Adam and Eve were 930, so I think the UK will let God off on this one.

In humans, sons are independent of their parents and parents have no responsibility over the actions of their offspring.

DING DING DING!! You seem to have gotten the answer, though I anticipate a "But" somewhere up ahead. . .

It's also true that crimial behaviour is learned, so in many cases, parents do have some responsibility in the crimes of their children.

Criminal behavior is learned, but not necessarily from their parents. ;) You learn more about criminal behavior from school and the news than your parents, in normal cases.

930? Really? I'd fail to see how anyone could suggest a human could survive that long.

What has that to do with responsibility? It's not God that's responsible, nor the parents, but the people who commit crime that are responsible for their own actions.

On what study do you base this assumption? In the UK, criminality often tends to run in families.

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rinkegekido2110

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#259 rinkegekido2110
Member since 2004 • 617 Posts

[QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

So, what exactly makes being powerful worthy of worship?

This will open a can of worms which i excel at on this site but we don't have free will...

every human being EVERYONE was created for a purpose, whether it be good or evil. they were meant to be here to give the glory to God... whether intentional or not... thats all God wants anyway...

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

People make their own decisicions on what to do in life. Therefore, it's their fault. /thread.

LJS9502_basic

See above.

If some guy were to throw an awesome party, but not send out invatations or give any clear indication of when or where the party will be held, that doesn't mean some people who didn't know about it wouldn't want to go.

One...doesn't address the subject.

Two....that would be your interpreation...but isn't everyone's interpretation. Actually, it goes against what the Bible says and as that is the discussion here....your can of worms is unopened.

Three....see number one.

Four....if one of your friends said they'd have a major party one day...you'd keep it in mind.

1. I was referring to someone else's statement.

2. Someone else's statement.

3. Again, someone else's statement.

4. If someone who doesn't give any clear indication that he even exists, that this party is happening or when or where it's going to be, I'm not going to be looking for it.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

HEre's a better analogy:

You raise a son. He becomes a murderer.

Should you go to jail for his crime?

Dracargen

That depends onthe age of criminal responsibility. In the UK, if he is under 12, the parents would be prosecuted.

Well, Adam and Eve were 930, so I think the UK will let God off on this one.

In humans, sons are independent of their parents and parents have no responsibility over the actions of their offspring.

DING DING DING!! You seem to have gotten the answer, though I anticipate a "But" somewhere up ahead. . .

It's also true that crimial behaviour is learned, so in many cases, parents do have some responsibility in the crimes of their children.

Criminal behavior is learned, but not necessarily from their parents. ;) You learn more about criminal behavior from school and the news than your parents, in normal cases.

This got way off track somehow, let me try to bring it back.

"Is god capable of being suprised?"

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RationalAtheist

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#260 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Did you read this post?

Are you the judge and the jury? What have yuou to say about the link I give you in my humble defense?

-Wicked_Sick-

It skirted the issue.

How?

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Godly_Cure

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#261 Godly_Cure
Member since 2007 • 4293 Posts
You know what I think now? Of course I knew it was a parable. It's my point.

When I said "even the bible contests that it didn't really happen" the contest was between the bible and LJS. In citing a reference to the parable in his rebuttal, he was assigning some factual significance to it.

What I should have said is that "the bible says that it didn't really happen", to protect myself from ignorami.

RationalAtheist

If you knew it was a parable why did you go to the effort to say the bible didn't say it was real. That is implied by the word parable. IE, a story meant to teach.

You asked LJS a question and I think he answered it well. Your rebuttal was weak.

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#262 Quick-Time
Member since 2007 • 610 Posts
Free will. Crime and punishment.
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#263 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Twice more LJS - the unmentionable word again?

We were discussing Gods forgiveness of murderers and the damnation of non-believers. I was illustrating an argument based on fairness. If you want to wildly distort our earlier exchanges, I'm glad one of us remains that knows what happened.

You have not described the relevence of the parable or its significance to this debate. You have only said that it busts my argument (I assume the one about fairness) without explaining why (again).

You can wait all you like, but I've already answered that question of yours in an earlier post. Perhaps you were so eager to reply that you forgot to read it.

LJS9502_basic

Finally after how many pages it sinks in. Yay!

If you are discussing God as perceived in the Bible...and you are...then the Bible is the criteria. Could you discuss a pitcher without using his stats? Not effectively. This line of reasoning is not in the least rational.

I didn't notice unless you count that lukewarm response that athesits could still want to be with God. That is illogical and didn't answer why anyway.

Well done - I'm quite relieved that you finally got it.

Are we not disussing the current interpretation of God, as derived from the bible, rather than as God was perceived in the bible? If we were discussing that, it would be a purely theological discussion and would not concern me. I'm interested to know what people here and now think about God.

I repeat that no atheist would want to be with God (at least in the sense I think you mean), as the atheist belief is one of God's nonexistance.

Let me put a similar arguement back at you:

If you died and it was the Islamic God you knelt before in judgement, would you not be interested in knowing more about this God that you had previously denied?

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RationalAtheist

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#264 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"] You know what I think now? Of course I knew it was a parable. It's my point.

When I said "even the bible contests that it didn't really happen" the contest was between the bible and LJS. In citing a reference to the parable in his rebuttal, he was assigning some factual significance to it.

What I should have said is that "the bible says that it didn't really happen", to protect myself from ignorami.

Godly_Cure

If you knew it was a parable why did you go to the effort to say the bible didn't say it was real. That is implied by the word parable. IE, a story meant to teach.

You asked LJS a question and I think he answered it well. Your rebuttal was weak.

If you have a look at the time and date stamp of the posts after my post, you will discover that I coninued that citing the made-up nature of the story meant it had no credibility. Time-stamps don't lie.

I don't think LJS has answered anything particularly well. I have explained why.

Thanks for your opinion, though I believe it somewhat biased.

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Dracargen

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#265 Dracargen
Member since 2007 • 7928 Posts

To the TC, "I don't get it". So in other words, if god is truly an omnipotent, omniscient, and infinite being, you would expect to completely understand this being and its actions? I don't know if god exists or not, but I can accept that my knowledge of such things is limited and finite. There many things in the world and universe that I can't quite comprehend - there's no beginning or end to time, there's no end to the universe, where did matter come from, etc. sonicare

Technically, time began with the universe, the universe stretches about 93 billion light years, and matter. . . .well, that's still a mystery. >_>

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LJS9502_basic

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#266 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180145 Posts

1. I was referring to someone else's statement.

2. Someone else's statement.

3. Again, someone else's statement.

4. If someone who doesn't give any clear indication that he even exists, that this party is happening or when or where it's going to be, I'm not going to be looking for it.

rinkegekido2110

1. I know. And?

2. I know. And?

3. You quoted and responded to me.

4. Then you miss out.

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Dracargen

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#267 Dracargen
Member since 2007 • 7928 Posts
[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

HEre's a better analogy:

You raise a son. He becomes a murderer.

Should you go to jail for his crime?

RationalAtheist

That depends onthe age of criminal responsibility. In the UK, if he is under 12, the parents would be prosecuted.

Well, Adam and Eve were 930, so I think the UK will let God off on this one.

In humans, sons are independent of their parents and parents have no responsibility over the actions of their offspring.

DING DING DING!! You seem to have gotten the answer, though I anticipate a "But" somewhere up ahead. . .

It's also true that crimial behaviour is learned, so in many cases, parents do have some responsibility in the crimes of their children.

Criminal behavior is learned, but not necessarily from their parents. ;) You learn more about criminal behavior from school and the news than your parents, in normal cases.

930? Really? I'd fail to see how anyone could suggest a human could survive that long.

What has that to do with responsibility? It's not God that's responsible, nor the parents, but the people who commit crime that are responsible for their own actions.

On what study do you base this assumption? In the UK, criminality often tends to run in families.

The point is, they were above the age of twelve.

People are responsible for their own actions? Then by what logic do you reach the conclusion that God is responsible for the actions of humans, who could be considered His children?

http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/pcornell.html

Motive. The motives are not new, they are familiar to anyone who remembers their teenage years. These are young people who are outcasts from their peers. Often they are victims of bullying and teasing. They join rebellious cliques that are attracted to counter-cultural ideas, whether they are beatniks, hippies, or goths. Within these counter-cultural groups some youth are especially vulnerable -- more angry, alienated, and depressed than their peers, and more susceptible to friends who encourage them to act out or take revenge. In case after case I have seen youth who discussed the possibility of murder with their families and were advised to go ahead and do it.

Method. Even more disturbing is the horrific method of these murders. To charge into a building and try to kill as many people as possible is an enactment of video violence. This is the kind of violence you see in the movies and play on video games. Children of today live in a social environment where violence is a primary form of entertainment, and they are exposed to values and ideas which reinforce and glorify violence. In case after case I have observed just how easily the lessons of well-meaning and capable parents are overpowered by the compelling and pervasive messages of violence in our modern video culture. We protect adults from consumer fraud and deceptive advertising better than we protect our children from these salesmen of hate and violence. As a society, we must be more concerned about the daily does of extreme violence administered to our children through television, video games, music, and the internet. Repeated exposure to messages of violence and hatred over time desensitize many young people, distort their perceptions of personal safety, and erode inhibitions against harming others.

Scientific studies provide overwhelming evidence that television violence encourages aggressive behavior and has a long-term effect on children (see reviews in Berkowitz, 1993; Donnerstein, Slaby, & Eron, 1995; Hughes & Hasbrouck, 1996). Yet the entertainment industry cannot accept these findings any more than tobacco industry could accept that cigarette smoking results in cancer. Concern over our children is cunningly transformed into a debate over constitutional freedom. We have trouble appreciating causal effects that are subtle, indirect, and cumulative over long periods of time. What's the harm in one video game or one cigarette?

I know you will hear representatives from the entertainment industry who simplistically point out that millions of children exposed to video violence never commit a violent act; in reply, be sure to ask them how it can that when millions are exposed to a flu virus, only a small proportion become ill, and only a handful die. The violence pervasive in our culture is like an environmental toxin; everyone is exposed to it, but only those who are most vulnerable or have the greatest exposure, are affected.

Today we have a lot of children infected with violence, but it's not a virus, it's a learned behavior. Violence is learned (Berkowitz, 1993; Perry, Perry, & Boldizar, 1990). Someone taught the kids in the Trenchcoat Mafia to admire Hitler and how to make pipebombs rather than to tolerate differences and respect others.

Means. Finally, the means to carry out these violent plans is the ready availability of firearms. Without access to guns, none of these school tragedies could have take place. Guns are a critical risk factor. When juvenile homicide tripled in this country in just ten years, all of the increase was in gun-related killing (Cornell, 1993; Snyder & Sickmund, 1995). There was no increase in juveniles stabbing or beating one another to death. Guns are not the cause of the violence, but they provide the means.

Violence does not come from just families. That's common sense here.

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LJS9502_basic

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#268 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180145 Posts

Well done - I'm quite relieved that you finally got it.

Are we not disussing the current interpretation of God, as derived from the bible, rather than as God was perceived in the bible? If we were discussing that, it would be a purely theological discussion and would not concern me. I'm interested to know what people here and now think about God.

I repeat that no atheist would want to be with God (at least in the sense I think you mean), as the atheist belief is one of God's nonexistance.

Let me put a similar arguement back at you:

If you died and it was the Islamic God you knelt before in judgement, would you not be interested in knowing more about this God that you had previously denied?

RationalAtheist

Your spin won't work with anyone with reading comprehension...but A for effort.

We're discussing the text in the Bible...without outside sources. They are a bit messy.

Good...then explain why atheists go on about living a moral life and shouldn't they be saved then. I'm not referring to you specifically...but I'm sure you've seen those posts in OT.

If I'm dead then it would be too late. He have made up His mind about me. But the God is the same with a slight difference in interpretation.

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RationalAtheist

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#269 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts

[QUOTE="sonicare"]To the TC, "I don't get it". So in other words, if god is truly an omnipotent, omniscient, and infinite being, you would expect to completely understand this being and its actions? I don't know if god exists or not, but I can accept that my knowledge of such things is limited and finite. There many things in the world and universe that I can't quite comprehend - there's no beginning or end to time, there's no end to the universe, where did matter come from, etc. Dracargen

Technically, time began with the universe, the universe stretches about 93 billion light years, and matter. . . .well, that's still a mystery. >_>

Technically? Are you talking about space-time?

If the big bang happened 15 billion years ago, wouldn't that make the universe 30 billion light-years in diameter?

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Dracargen

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#270 Dracargen
Member since 2007 • 7928 Posts
[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"]To the TC, "I don't get it". So in other words, if god is truly an omnipotent, omniscient, and infinite being, you would expect to completely understand this being and its actions? I don't know if god exists or not, but I can accept that my knowledge of such things is limited and finite. There many things in the world and universe that I can't quite comprehend - there's no beginning or end to time, there's no end to the universe, where did matter come from, etc. RationalAtheist

Technically, time began with the universe, the universe stretches about 93 billion light years, and matter. . . .well, that's still a mystery. >_>

Technically? Are you talking about space-time?

If the big bang happened 15 billion years ago, wouldn't that make the universe 30 billion light-years in diameter?

Time began with the Big Bang, and according to our WMAP satellittes, the universe is at least 93 billion light years across.

I gotta go.

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#271 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Well done - I'm quite relieved that you finally got it.

Are we not disussing the current interpretation of God, as derived from the bible, rather than as God was perceived in the bible? If we were discussing that, it would be a purely theological discussion and would not concern me. I'm interested to know what people here and now think about God.

I repeat that no atheist would want to be with God (at least in the sense I think you mean), as the atheist belief is one of God's nonexistance.

Let me put a similar arguement back at you:

If you died and it was the Islamic God you knelt before in judgement, would you not be interested in knowing more about this God that you had previously denied?

LJS9502_basic

Your spin won't work with anyone with reading comprehension...but A for effort.

We're discussing the text in the Bible...without outside sources. They are a bit messy.

Good...then explain why atheists go on about living a moral life and shouldn't they be saved then. I'm not referring to you specifically...but I'm sure you've seen those posts in OT.

If I'm dead then it would be too late. He have made up His mind about me. But the God is the same with a slight difference in interpretation.

Shouldn't that be "for anyone with reading comprehension"? Discussing the bible does always tend to get messy, if the discussion comes from opposing views.

The "moral lives" argument comes not from atheism, but from everyone who is not a Chrisitan, and even from some within the Christian faith itself.

It supposes that the non-relgious are making some enquiry into the possibility that they are wrong in this what if scenareo. The outcome, for me, is that the Christian salvation situation is grossly unfair, with tends to fuel my disbelief in the compassionate God of the New Testament.

The question I asked was about you being interested in knowing the real truth, rather than the lies (in this hypothetical situation) that you had believed. It would not be too late as in this hypothetical situation (the same on I am in too) you would be being judged. Your intelligence and curiosity would infer that you would be interested in knowing about the God and also in pleading a case for living a virtuous life (If you have done).

And the one God fits all viewpoint is not the majority view of the faithful.

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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#272 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

[QUOTE="sonicare"]To the TC, "I don't get it". So in other words, if god is truly an omnipotent, omniscient, and infinite being, you would expect to completely understand this being and its actions? I don't know if god exists or not, but I can accept that my knowledge of such things is limited and finite. There many things in the world and universe that I can't quite comprehend - there's no beginning or end to time, there's no end to the universe, where did matter come from, etc. Dracargen

Technically, time began with the universe, the universe stretches about 93 billion light years, and matter. . . .well, that's still a mystery. >_>

But there was something before the beginning of the universe. That's just the creation of the known universe. What was before that?

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LJS9502_basic

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#273 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180145 Posts
Discussing the bible does always tend to get messy, if the discussion comes from opposing views.

The "moral lives" argument comes not from atheism, but from everyone who is not a Chrisitan, and even from some within the Christian faith itself.

It supposes that the non-relgious are making some enquiry into the possibility that they are wrong in this what if scenareo. The outcome, for me, is that the Christian salvation situation is grossly unfair, with tends to fuel my disbelief in the compassionate God of the New Testament.

The question I asked was about you being interested in knowing the real truth, rather than the lies (in this hypothetical situation) that you had believed. It would not be too late as in this hypothetical situation (the same on I am in too) you would be being judged. Your intelligence and curiosity would infer that you would be interested in knowing about the God and also in pleading a case for living a virtuous life (If you have done).

And the one God fits all viewpoint is not the majority view of the faithful.

RationalAtheist

That's why you use the actual text.

The Christian salvation is not unfair. One either believes or not and if one chooses not to believe they have the consequences THEY SOUGHT. If they sought it...it's not unfair.:)

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RationalAtheist

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#274 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

HEre's a better analogy:

You raise a son. He becomes a murderer.

Should you go to jail for his crime?

Dracargen

That depends onthe age of criminal responsibility. In the UK, if he is under 12, the parents would be prosecuted.

Well, Adam and Eve were 930, so I think the UK will let God off on this one.

In humans, sons are independent of their parents and parents have no responsibility over the actions of their offspring.

DING DING DING!! You seem to have gotten the answer, though I anticipate a "But" somewhere up ahead. . .

It's also true that crimial behaviour is learned, so in many cases, parents do have some responsibility in the crimes of their children.

Criminal behavior is learned, but not necessarily from their parents. ;) You learn more about criminal behavior from school and the news than your parents, in normal cases.

930? Really? I'd fail to see how anyone could suggest a human could survive that long.

What has that to do with responsibility? It's not God that's responsible, nor the parents, but the people who commit crime that are responsible for their own actions.

On what study do you base this assumption? In the UK, criminality often tends to run in families.

The point is, they were above the age of twelve.

People are responsible for their own actions? Then by what logic do you reach the conclusion that God is responsible for the actions of humans, who could be considered His children?

http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/pcornell.html

Violence does not come from just families. That's common sense here.

I never did reach the conclusion that God is responsible for human actions. I'm atheist, remember?

I never said that violence does not come just from families. I spoke of criminality. Violence is one small part of criminal behaviour. There's no need to post ugly big quotes from the link you gave, especially seeing as your point is not in dispute.

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rinkegekido2110

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#275 rinkegekido2110
Member since 2004 • 617 Posts

[QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

1. I was referring to someone else's statement.

2. Someone else's statement.

3. Again, someone else's statement.

4. If someone who doesn't give any clear indication that he even exists, that this party is happening or when or where it's going to be, I'm not going to be looking for it.

LJS9502_basic

1. I know. And?

2. I know. And?

3. You quoted and responded to me.

4. Then you miss out.

1, 2, and 3 were the topic I was addressing, not the one you jumped in with.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"] Discussing the bible does always tend to get messy, if the discussion comes from opposing views.

The "moral lives" argument comes not from atheism, but from everyone who is not a Chrisitan, and even from some within the Christian faith itself.

It supposes that the non-relgious are making some enquiry into the possibility that they are wrong in this what if scenareo. The outcome, for me, is that the Christian salvation situation is grossly unfair, with tends to fuel my disbelief in the compassionate God of the New Testament.

The question I asked was about you being interested in knowing the real truth, rather than the lies (in this hypothetical situation) that you had believed. It would not be too late as in this hypothetical situation (the same on I am in too) you would be being judged. Your intelligence and curiosity would infer that you would be interested in knowing about the God and also in pleading a case for living a virtuous life (If you have done).

And the one God fits all viewpoint is not the majority view of the faithful.

LJS9502_basic

That's why you use the actual text.

The Christian salvation is not unfair. One either believes or not and if one chooses not to believe they have the consequences THEY SOUGHT. If they sought it...it's not unfair.:)

Which comes back to "Do we have free will?" Which in turn leads to "Is god capable of being suprised?"

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RationalAtheist

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#276 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"] Discussing the bible does always tend to get messy, if the discussion comes from opposing views.

The "moral lives" argument comes not from atheism, but from everyone who is not a Chrisitan, and even from some within the Christian faith itself.

It supposes that the non-relgious are making some enquiry into the possibility that they are wrong in this what if scenareo. The outcome, for me, is that the Christian salvation situation is grossly unfair, with tends to fuel my disbelief in the compassionate God of the New Testament.

The question I asked was about you being interested in knowing the real truth, rather than the lies (in this hypothetical situation) that you had believed. It would not be too late as in this hypothetical situation (the same on I am in too) you would be being judged. Your intelligence and curiosity would infer that you would be interested in knowing about the God and also in pleading a case for living a virtuous life (If you have done).

And the one God fits all viewpoint is not the majority view of the faithful.

LJS9502_basic

That's why you use the actual text.

The Christian salvation is not unfair. One either believes or not and if one chooses not to believe they have the consequences THEY SOUGHT. If they sought it...it's not unfair.:)

The faithful do base their views on the one text - with varying degrees of selectivity and interpretation.

The consequences of Christan salvation are unfair. People didn't seek those consequences, the choice was blunt.

I notice you still have not answered the question I kindly answered when you asked it of me. Why's that then?

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xxDustmanxx

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#277 xxDustmanxx
Member since 2007 • 2598 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"] Discussing the bible does always tend to get messy, if the discussion comes from opposing views.

The "moral lives" argument comes not from atheism, but from everyone who is not a Chrisitan, and even from some within the Christian faith itself.

It supposes that the non-relgious are making some enquiry into the possibility that they are wrong in this what if scenareo. The outcome, for me, is that the Christian salvation situation is grossly unfair, with tends to fuel my disbelief in the compassionate God of the New Testament.

The question I asked was about you being interested in knowing the real truth, rather than the lies (in this hypothetical situation) that you had believed. It would not be too late as in this hypothetical situation (the same on I am in too) you would be being judged. Your intelligence and curiosity would infer that you would be interested in knowing about the God and also in pleading a case for living a virtuous life (If you have done).

And the one God fits all viewpoint is not the majority view of the faithful.

LJS9502_basic

That's why you use the actual text.

The Christian salvation is not unfair. One either believes or not and if one chooses not to believe they have the consequences THEY SOUGHT. If they sought it...it's not unfair.:)

so its gods way or the highway.That doesnt sound too fair to me.

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LJS9502_basic

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#278 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180145 Posts

so its gods way or the highway.That doesnt sound too fair to me.

xxDustmanxx

It's His afterlife party....invitation only.

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RationalAtheist

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#279 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"][QUOTE="Dracargen"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"]To the TC, "I don't get it". So in other words, if god is truly an omnipotent, omniscient, and infinite being, you would expect to completely understand this being and its actions? I don't know if god exists or not, but I can accept that my knowledge of such things is limited and finite. There many things in the world and universe that I can't quite comprehend - there's no beginning or end to time, there's no end to the universe, where did matter come from, etc. Dracargen

Technically, time began with the universe, the universe stretches about 93 billion light years, and matter. . . .well, that's still a mystery. >_>

Technically? Are you talking about space-time?

If the big bang happened 15 billion years ago, wouldn't that make the universe 30 billion light-years in diameter?

Time began with the Big Bang, and according to our WMAP satellittes, the universe is at least 93 billion light years across.

I gotta go.

93 billion is correct, according to them. It uses he notion that space can expand faster than light can travel to explain the increased size. Hooray for astro-physics!

The notion of time before he big bang has not been discredited as a hypothesis. Conjecture on the prior state of the universe is just that.

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xxDustmanxx

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#280 xxDustmanxx
Member since 2007 • 2598 Posts
[QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

so its gods way or the highway.That doesnt sound too fair to me.

LJS9502_basic

It's His afterlife party....invitation only.

That wouldnt be a problem if the only alternative wasnt burning and torture for all eternity.That's ridiculous.

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xXBuffJeffXx

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#281 xXBuffJeffXx
Member since 2006 • 5913 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Well done - I'm quite relieved that you finally got it.

Are we not disussing the current interpretation of God, as derived from the bible, rather than as God was perceived in the bible? If we were discussing that, it would be a purely theological discussion and would not concern me. I'm interested to know what people here and now think about God.

I repeat that no atheist would want to be with God (at least in the sense I think you mean), as the atheist belief is one of God's nonexistance.

Let me put a similar arguement back at you:

If you died and it was the Islamic God you knelt before in judgement, would you not be interested in knowing more about this God that you had previously denied?

LJS9502_basic

Good...then explain why atheists go on about living a moral life and shouldn't they be saved then. I'm not referring to you specifically...but I'm sure you've seen those posts in OT.

I'm not saying that an atheist wants to spend time with God because atheists don't believe he exists. My point was that if Christianity preaches altruism, forgiveness, and acceptence, shouldn't atheists be afforded the same treatment that Christians are if they abide by a similar moral code?

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rinkegekido2110

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#282 rinkegekido2110
Member since 2004 • 617 Posts

... "Is god capable of being suprised?"

rinkegekido2110

Why has no one even tried to answer this yet?

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#283 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180145 Posts

I'm not saying that an atheist wants to spend time with God because atheists don't believe he exists. My point was that if Christianity preaches altruism, forgiveness, and acceptence, shouldn't atheists be afforded the same treatment that Christians are if they abide by a similar moral code?

xXBuffJeffXx

The NT clearly states "no one gets to the Father but through me".

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LJS9502_basic

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#284 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180145 Posts
[QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

... "Is god capable of being suprised?"

rinkegekido2110

Why has no one even tried to answer this yet?

No. You've been answered.

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rinkegekido2110

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#285 rinkegekido2110
Member since 2004 • 617 Posts
[QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

... "Is god capable of being suprised?"

LJS9502_basic

Why has no one even tried to answer this yet?

No. You've been answered.

Well then there is no free will, as any action taken is simply acting out god's knowledge of what would happen. So in that case, god would be punishing us for his mistakes.

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LJS9502_basic

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#286 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180145 Posts

Well then there is no free will, as any action taken is simply acting out god's knowledge of what would happen. So in that case, god would be punishing us for his mistakes.

rinkegekido2110

Yeah I knew that was your intent...however, being able to predict what's going to happen is not the same as causing it to happen so that logic fails.

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_Marisa_

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#287 _Marisa_
Member since 2003 • 12204 Posts
To be honest, I'm not so sure the God portrayed in the bible is an omnibenevolent one.
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#288 UnhappyCrab
Member since 2007 • 266 Posts
[QUOTE="gobo212"]

God looks like a baby? ;)

Anyway I also have trouble with this. God has known since the beginning of time (or before?) how things were going to turn out and that people would reject religion. Why not give everyone the unmistakable feeling of his presence if wants to be worshiped?

fanboy-buster

Haven't you seen the perfect balance of the universe? Everything in the universe runs perfectly. Everytime I think about this I know there is a higher power watching everything.

Have you seen everything in the Universe? "Everything in the Universe runs perfectly" How do you know this? Are you someone like Doctor Who?

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#289 flowdee79
Member since 2007 • 4483 Posts

Yeah sho we would have no free-will. That is probably one of our defining factors as individuals. What if God said that we weren't allowed to have sex until we were married and fully committed? Or he banned games like GTA IV on the premise of simulating violence? Dunno about you but I wouldn't like to be a common drone...

I could go on but....I think I've made my point.

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RiSkyBiZ-13

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#290 RiSkyBiZ-13
Member since 2007 • 1448 Posts

If I create a world, and it falls apart, whose fault would it be? Mine, since it would be my project and I would be in complete control of everything that goes into it. I would be nothing more than a bully and a coward if I blamed all of my mistakes on the lesser beings that I created, knowing full well I designed them to be flawed.

So why does god point the finger at us and tell us that we have "fallen" short of his glory? Sounds like he just wants to avoid the blame for where he went wrong in his design of this life.

All this leads me to think - How could a being as majestic, powerful, and infinitely wise as god supposedly is, get all caught up in such petty and frivilous matters such as not being able to own up to making a mistake? I can own up to a mistake if I make one...does this make me better than god? And if I'm better than god, in any way, wouldn't that prove he is an imaginary being since it's impossible to create anything greater than yourself?

Why can't he say, "Ok, look, it's my fault the world turned out this way. Let me clean it up for you." Cause really, if he wanted to rid the world of all evil, he could just snap his fingers and make it so.

He made everything the way it is, and now he blames us for it...what the hell?

Deity_Slapper

If I'm repeating anyone's post, I appologize. I'm not reading through 350+ messages, don't have time.

I'll make it plain and simple. God gave us free will, a two sided blade. He won't work us like puppets, so we are free to do all the good we can. At the same turn, we are free to do all the evil we can. Look at it this way, God created the world with the possibility for humans to make it the most peaceful, prosperous place in all of existence. Look what we did with it. Saying it's his fault that we do what we do is a total copout, and makes us the coward that won't take responsibility. In fact, if I were Him, I wouldn't like us at all. I'd probably hate us.

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rinkegekido2110

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#291 rinkegekido2110
Member since 2004 • 617 Posts
[QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

Well then there is no free will, as any action taken is simply acting out god's knowledge of what would happen. So in that case, god would be punishing us for his mistakes.

LJS9502_basic

Yeah I knew that was your intent...however, being able to predict what's going to happen is not the same as causing it to happen so that logic fails.

That only applies if god doesn't know what will happen, and if that's true, then god is not omniscient, as there are things that god doesn't know. It's one or the other, free will cannot co-exist with omniscience.

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#292 xscrapzx
Member since 2007 • 6636 Posts
Where is the evidence that god has punished us? What because there is hunger in the world? What because people suffer? How can you throw that all on God when people have their own choices? The reason there are bad things in the world is because there were and are certain people that make bad decisions that make those things. Don't blame God.
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LJS9502_basic

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#293 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180145 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

Well then there is no free will, as any action taken is simply acting out god's knowledge of what would happen. So in that case, god would be punishing us for his mistakes.

rinkegekido2110

Yeah I knew that was your intent...however, being able to predict what's going to happen is not the same as causing it to happen so that logic fails.

That only applies if god doesn't know what will happen, and if that's true, then god is not omniscient, as there are things that god doesn't know. It's one or the other, free will cannot co-exist with omniscience.

Uh no. You are confusing knowing with doing. Two entirely different things.

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xXBuffJeffXx

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#294 xXBuffJeffXx
Member since 2006 • 5913 Posts
[QUOTE="xXBuffJeffXx"]

I'm not saying that an atheist wants to spend time with God because atheists don't believe he exists. My point was that if Christianity preaches altruism, forgiveness, and acceptence, shouldn't atheists be afforded the same treatment that Christians are if they abide by a similar moral code?

LJS9502_basic

The NT clearly states "no one gets to the Father but through me".

Does that seem fair to you?

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LJS9502_basic

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#295 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180145 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="xXBuffJeffXx"]

I'm not saying that an atheist wants to spend time with God because atheists don't believe he exists. My point was that if Christianity preaches altruism, forgiveness, and acceptence, shouldn't atheists be afforded the same treatment that Christians are if they abide by a similar moral code?

xXBuffJeffXx

The NT clearly states "no one gets to the Father but through me".

Does that seem fair to you?

Sure. If you seek God in life you find Him...if you don't...then you don't.

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rinkegekido2110

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#296 rinkegekido2110
Member since 2004 • 617 Posts
[QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

Well then there is no free will, as any action taken is simply acting out god's knowledge of what would happen. So in that case, god would be punishing us for his mistakes.

LJS9502_basic

Yeah I knew that was your intent...however, being able to predict what's going to happen is not the same as causing it to happen so that logic fails.

That only applies if god doesn't know what will happen, and if that's true, then god is not omniscient, as there are things that god doesn't know. It's one or the other, free will cannot co-exist with omniscience.

Uh no. You are confusing knowing with doing. Two entirely different things.

No, you are confusing prediction with knowledge. As you said, god is incapable of being suprised. That means that there is no possibility of god being wrong, as such whatever happens could not have happened any other way because god can't be wrong. Now, if that's not what you're arguing, please clear it up.

It comes down to whether or not god can be wrong. If not, no free will. If so, not omniscient.

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#297 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180145 Posts

No, you are confusing prediction with knowledge. As you said, god is incapable of being suprised. That means that there is no possibility of god being wrong, as such whatever happens could not have happened any other way because god can't be wrong. Now, if that's not what you're arguing, please clear it up.

It comes down to whether or not god can be wrong. If not, no free will. If so, not omniscient.

rinkegekido2110

Not quite. Knowing how you are going to act is not the same thing as making you act.:|

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gobo212

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#298 gobo212
Member since 2003 • 6277 Posts
[QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

No, you are confusing prediction with knowledge. As you said, god is incapable of being suprised. That means that there is no possibility of god being wrong, as such whatever happens could not have happened any other way because god can't be wrong. Now, if that's not what you're arguing, please clear it up.

It comes down to whether or not god can be wrong. If not, no free will. If so, not omniscient.

LJS9502_basic

Not quite. Knowing how you are going to act is not the same thing as making you act.:|

If God knows your going to do something before you do it, how can you possibly do otherwise?

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rinkegekido2110

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#299 rinkegekido2110
Member since 2004 • 617 Posts
[QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

No, you are confusing prediction with knowledge. As you said, god is incapable of being suprised. That means that there is no possibility of god being wrong, as such whatever happens could not have happened any other way because god can't be wrong. Now, if that's not what you're arguing, please clear it up.

It comes down to whether or not god can be wrong. If not, no free will. If so, not omniscient.

LJS9502_basic

Not quite. Knowing how you are going to act is not the same thing as making you act.:|

And predicting how one is going to act is not the same as knowing. So does god know, or is it making predictions?

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Happy_Kat777

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#300 Happy_Kat777
Member since 2006 • 459 Posts

read "God's Debris"

/thread