[QUOTE="tocool340"][QUOTE="jeremiah06"] There is no proof I can offer other than my bible and my faith... The point is to choose with your faith. Having direct proof defeats the purpose of choosing. If any random person could have absolute proof of God and his will of us then why would they not choose to believe. Thats not free will. I could give you my religious views, but I doubt thats the answer you're looking for.Why do you follow God if you don't mind me asking. Is it out of fear or just in a sense of duty? Personally, I believe in God because he has called out to me and has shown me that he does exist. It's not a sense of duty or fear(I'm my religion people say they are God fearing. However, its not fear as in afraid. In the original translation it would be closer to respect.) There have been many times my prayers have been answered. I've even faced death and my survival was not due to my own hands. In short, I can feel God in my heart. There is no logical explanation I can give. I don't believe that, that bike turning on its own, that random lady giving me a dime(the amount I was short), that tree falling on my house(which caused insurance to fix our already broken furnace that wasn't covered) was coincidence. There are many other times/experiences, but I can't possible share them all. I'd say a million coincidences are more probable than an omnipotent God of all time and space.jeremiah06
I Just dont get it How could you not believe in God
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="jeremiah06"]There is no proof I can offer other than my bible and my faith... The point is to choose with your faith. Having direct proof defeats the purpose of choosing. If any random person could have absolute proof of God and his will of us then why would they not choose to believe. Thats not free will. I could give you my religious views, but I doubt thats the answer you're looking for. Then why did God give me reason and create me so I think rationally when he didn't even want me to use this ability when it came to my entire purpose for existing? If anything, the fact that I do think rationally and do use logic makes it that much harder for me to believe in God. Think about what those words are... logic, rational. They are human terms derived from a human's perception. They hold no barring when discussing God. Humans from our beginning have chose knowledge(Adam and Eve) over the piece of mind God gives, its in our nature. However, the point is to look past that nature with nothing but the faith of Gods love, and choose to believe in him. You've now received his calling(through me) Now all's that's left is to live your life and deiced for yourself whether or not you do believe.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] But does that alleged purpose that man has actually exist, either? Isn't it possible that God doesn't give a **** whether or not we believe in him or reject? You haven't proved that he does care about man's view of him.-Sun_Tzu-
[QUOTE="tocool340"][QUOTE="jeremiah06"] There is no proof I can offer other than my bible and my faith... The point is to choose with your faith. Having direct proof defeats the purpose of choosing. If any random person could have absolute proof of God and his will of us then why would they not choose to believe. Thats not free will. I could give you my religious views, but I doubt thats the answer you're looking for.Why do you follow God if you don't mind me asking. Is it out of fear or just in a sense of duty? Personally, I believe in God because he has called out to me and has shown me that he does exist. It's not a sense of duty or fear(I'm my religion people say they are God fearing. However, its not fear as in afraid. In the original translation it would be closer to respect.) There have been many times my prayers have been answered. I've even faced death and my survival was not due to my own hands. In short, I can feel God in my heart. There is no logical explanation I can give. I don't believe that, that bike turning on its own, that random lady giving me a dime(the amount I was short), that tree falling on my house(which caused insurance to fix our already broken furnace that wasn't covered) was coincidence. There are many other times/experiences, but I can't possible share them all. And this here.....is why I don't respect many Christians. I dislike the idea of when you are in a slump, instead of giving yourself remotely ANY credit of finding a way out of it, or pat yourself on the back, you give most, if not all, the credit to something that probably wasn't thinking about you. What makes you so special that he would decide to look pass people less fortunate than you and would allow them to continue to suffer?jeremiah06
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="jeremiah06"] There is no proof I can offer other than my bible and my faith... The point is to choose with your faith. Having direct proof defeats the purpose of choosing. If any random person could have absolute proof of God and his will of us then why would they not choose to believe. Thats not free will. I could give you my religious views, but I doubt thats the answer you're looking for.Then why did God give me reason and create me so I think rationally when he didn't even want me to use this ability when it came to my entire purpose for existing? If anything, the fact that I do think rationally and do use logic makes it that much harder for me to believe in God. Think about what those words are... logic, rational. They are human terms derived from a human's perception. They hold no barring when discussing God. Humans from our beginning have chose knowledge(Adam and Eve) over the piece of mind God gives, its in our nature. However, the point is to look past that nature with nothing but the faith of Gods love, and choose to believe in him. You've now received his calling(through me) Now all's that's left is to live your life and deiced for yourself whether or not you do believe. See...this bothers me. Christians always want to speak on God's behalf. If God wanted me to know something, I would know; you - a mere mortal with no special standing in His eyes - wouldn't be the one to tell me.jeremiah06
You've now received his calling(through me) Now all's that's left is to live your life and deiced for yourself whether or not you do believe.jeremiah06
I'll choose not to thanks. I'd rather not live life under a dictator who uses eternal punishment for finite crimes. Plus, Cthulhu is just so much cooler... and doesn't give a rats ass about what I do.
[QUOTE="jeremiah06"]You've now received his calling(through me) Now all's that's left is to live your life and deiced for yourself whether or not you do believe.foxhound_fox
I'll choose not to thanks. I'd rather not live life under a dictator who uses eternal punishment for finite crimes. Plus, Cthulhu is just so much cooler... and doesn't give a rats ass about what I do. I know. Cthulhu is an a-hole, but he/it/whatever isn't trying to convince anyone otherwise. If a ruler is going to be malicious, I would prefer that he not try to convince me otherwise.
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="jeremiah06"] There is no proof I can offer other than my bible and my faith... The point is to choose with your faith. Having direct proof defeats the purpose of choosing. If any random person could have absolute proof of God and his will of us then why would they not choose to believe. Thats not free will. I could give you my religious views, but I doubt thats the answer you're looking for.Then why did God give me reason and create me so I think rationally when he didn't even want me to use this ability when it came to my entire purpose for existing? If anything, the fact that I do think rationally and do use logic makes it that much harder for me to believe in God. Think about what those words are... logic, rational. They are human terms derived from a human's perception. They hold no barring when discussing God. Humans from our beginning have chose knowledge(Adam and Eve) over the piece of mind God gives, its in our nature. However, the point is to look past that nature with nothing but the faith of Gods love, and choose to believe in him. You've now received his calling(through me) Now all's that's left is to live your life and deiced for yourself whether or not you do believe. I choose not to believe.jeremiah06
But back to logic, rationality and all that good stuff - all these things are very relevant when discussing God. Even if these things derived soley from our perception - God dictates how we were to perceive the world. Perception is not something anyone chooses. No man invented the process of thinking rationally - if God created us then God invented it.
Personally, I believe in God because he has called out to me and has shown me that he does exist. It's not a sense of duty or fear(I'm my religion people say they are God fearing. However, its not fear as in afraid. In the original translation it would be closer to respect.) There have been many times my prayers have been answered. I've even faced death and my survival was not due to my own hands. In short, I can feel God in my heart. There is no logical explanation I can give. I don't believe that, that bike turning on its own, that random lady giving me a dime(the amount I was short), that tree falling on my house(which caused insurance to fix our already broken furnace that wasn't covered) was coincidence. There are many other times/experiences, but I can't possible share them all. And this here.....is why I don't respect many Christians. I dislike the idea of when you are in a slump, instead of giving yourself remotely ANY credit of finding a way out of it, or pat yourself on the back, you give most, if not all, the credit to something that probably wasn't thinking about you. What makes you so special that he would decide to look pass people less fortunate than you and would allow them to continue to suffer? How could I have made that ice storm, that froze that tree, that feel on my house? I froze up out of fear and the bike swerved out of the way of the car, how can I clam credit of dodging that car? No one suffers eternally all the time forever. Something good will happen eventually. It's common Christan knowledge that those who believe in God will suffer fa more than those who don't believe. This is where Satan comes into play. He'll bless those who don't believe with worldly things so that they feel as if they don't need God. We suffer and still believe.. thats what makes us special.[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="tocool340"] Why do you follow God if you don't mind me asking. Is it out of fear or just in a sense of duty?tocool340
[QUOTE="jeremiah06"]Humans from our beginning have chose knowledge(Adam and Eve) over the piece of mind God gives, its in our natureGabuEx
And who gave us that nature?
...the point is to look past that nature with nothing but the faith of Gods love, and choose to believe in him.
I just don't get how you CAN believe in God. :shock:
Think about what those words are... logic, rational. They are human terms derived from a human's perception. They hold no barring when discussing God. Humans from our beginning have chose knowledge(Adam and Eve) over the piece of mind God gives, its in our nature. However, the point is to look past that nature with nothing but the faith of Gods love, and choose to believe in him. You've now received his calling(through me) Now all's that's left is to live your life and deiced for yourself whether or not you do believe. See...this bothers me. Christians always want to speak on God's behalf. If God wanted me to know something, I would know; you - a mere mortal with no special standing in His eyes - wouldn't be the one to tell me. Because we are told to spread the word of God so that other nonbelievers may hear/read the glory of God.[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Then why did God give me reason and create me so I think rationally when he didn't even want me to use this ability when it came to my entire purpose for existing? If anything, the fact that I do think rationally and do use logic makes it that much harder for me to believe in God. jalexbrown
Maybe I'm alone, but I find this attitude just as detestable as the attitude that non-believers get from believers. The world doesn't benefit from such closed-mindedness one way or the other.I just don't get how you CAN believe in God. :shock:
-Water-Wings-
[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="jeremiah06"]Humans from our beginning have chose knowledge(Adam and Eve) over the piece of mind God gives, its in our naturejeremiah06
And who gave us that nature?
...the point is to look past that nature with nothing but the faith of Gods love, and choose to believe in him.No, it's a perfectly valid question.
Humans, we are told, were given a nature that from the very beginning God did not want us to have, and which we must never make use of, and if we do make use of it, then we will be punished for all eternity. This basically means that this is ultimately the fault of whomever gave us that nature.
So...
Who gave us that nature?
[QUOTE="jalexbrown"]See...this bothers me. Christians always want to speak on God's behalf. If God wanted me to know something, I would know; you - a mere mortal with no special standing in His eyes - wouldn't be the one to tell me. Because we are told to spread the word of God so that other nonbelievers may hear/read the glory of God. It's one thing to spread the word to someone whom is looking; it's another thing entirely to spread the world to people whom don't care or aren't interested. My mother is very happily Jewish, and I've seen her harangued by so many Christians that wouldn't leave her alone about it...I find it disgusting, to be honest.[QUOTE="jeremiah06"] Think about what those words are... logic, rational. They are human terms derived from a human's perception. They hold no barring when discussing God. Humans from our beginning have chose knowledge(Adam and Eve) over the piece of mind God gives, its in our nature. However, the point is to look past that nature with nothing but the faith of Gods love, and choose to believe in him. You've now received his calling(through me) Now all's that's left is to live your life and deiced for yourself whether or not you do believe.jeremiah06
...the point is to look past that nature with nothing but the faith of Gods love, and choose to believe in him.[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]
And who gave us that nature?
GabuEx
No, it's a perfectly valid question.
Humans, we are told, were given a nature that from the very beginning God did not want us to have, and which we must never make use of, and if we do make use of it, then we will be punished for all eternity. This basically means that this is ultimately the fault of whomever gave us that nature.
So...
Who gave us that nature?
(Look who decided to come back and partake in another round of this exciting thread! :P)Think about what those words are... logic, rational. They are human terms derived from a human's perception. They hold no barring when discussing God. Humans from our beginning have chose knowledge(Adam and Eve) over the piece of mind God gives, its in our nature. However, the point is to look past that nature with nothing but the faith of Gods love, and choose to believe in him. You've now received his calling(through me) Now all's that's left is to live your life and deiced for yourself whether or not you do believe. I choose not to believe.[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Then why did God give me reason and create me so I think rationally when he didn't even want me to use this ability when it came to my entire purpose for existing? If anything, the fact that I do think rationally and do use logic makes it that much harder for me to believe in God. -Sun_Tzu-
But back to logic, rationality and all that good stuff - all these things are very relevant when discussing God. Even if these things derived soley from our perception - God dictates how we were to perceive the world. Perception is not something anyone chooses. No man invented the process of thinking rationally - if God created us then God invented it.
Yes, you are right God created us with an inherent nature to seek knowledge. That's why we create words such as logic and rational. However, we also have the ability to put faith into the illogical. To believe with our hearts and mind in God. It is only after making that choice that our purpose is complete and after completely living out that purpose all there's left is to live. Live how God would like us to or not. Then upon the day of judgement our choices will be weighed.
[QUOTE="tocool340"]And this here.....is why I don't respect many Christians. I dislike the idea of when you are in a slump, instead of giving yourself remotely ANY credit of finding a way out of it, or pat yourself on the back, you give most, if not all, the credit to something that probably wasn't thinking about you. What makes you so special that he would decide to look pass people less fortunate than you and would allow them to continue to suffer? How could I have made that ice storm, that froze that tree, that feel on my house? I froze up out of fear and the bike swerved out of the way of the car, how can I clam credit of dodging that car? No one suffers eternally all the time forever. Something good will happen eventually. It's common Christan knowledge that those who believe in God will suffer fa more than those who don't believe. This is where Satan comes into play. He'll bless those who don't believe with worldly things so that they feel as if they don't need God. We suffer and still believe.. thats what makes us special. In that second one your survival instinct took over because you were failing at not dying, so yeah you would have dodged the car, it's not even a big feat I've done it several times. No one suffers eternally all the time forever? Isn't that the point of Christian hell? Isn't that kind of Evil under his own standards to make his own worshipers suffer? Why is Satan such a bad guy if he treats people nicely, he didn't make Hell either he just is depicted as being trapped there/taking care of it. So Christians are special because they suffer, what about Jews? They sure seem to have it way worse than Christians who are often the most powerful and wealthy people in the world.[QUOTE="jeremiah06"] Personally, I believe in God because he has called out to me and has shown me that he does exist. It's not a sense of duty or fear(I'm my religion people say they are God fearing. However, its not fear as in afraid. In the original translation it would be closer to respect.) There have been many times my prayers have been answered. I've even faced death and my survival was not due to my own hands. In short, I can feel God in my heart. There is no logical explanation I can give. I don't believe that, that bike turning on its own, that random lady giving me a dime(the amount I was short), that tree falling on my house(which caused insurance to fix our already broken furnace that wasn't covered) was coincidence. There are many other times/experiences, but I can't possible share them all. jeremiah06
[QUOTE="Avian005"]It's not enough to believe in God. If you're Christian, you believe that people go to hell for not accepting Jesus as their Lord and savior. That's actually not quite the whole story Either. I'm Mormon and believe that Jesus is the Christ, Savior of the world. But Most Christians believe that I am going to hell because I don't have their same beliefs about Jesus.Is it true if you don't believe in God, then you go to hell?
Then what about all the people who never heard of the existence in God?
How do you believe in God if you've never known his existence?
jalexbrown
And as for our purpose here, that is one of the main reasons why they think I am going to Hell, they say it is impossible to understand for us humans, I say it is quite simple. God is our father, he sent us here to earth so that we could move on to our next stage of life, as we had been spirit beings, but in order to progress we needed to receive a body, after we die we will be resurrected with a perfect, immortal body like he has, and we will continue to progress until we will eventually become gods and create worlds of our own.
We were not just created to worship God, he is not that self centered, he created us so that we would one day be like him. It is just like having children here on earth, they will eventually grow up to be like their parents, but their parents will still be their parents.
...the point is to look past that nature with nothing but the faith of Gods love, and choose to believe in him.[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]
And who gave us that nature?
GabuEx
No, it's a perfectly valid question.
Humans, we are told, were given a nature that from the very beginning God did not want us to have, and which we must never make use of, and if we do make use of it, then we will be punished for all eternity. This basically means that this is ultimately the fault of whomever gave us that nature.
So...
Who gave us that nature?
The nature we have is a stepping block to overcome. Like I said before if were weren't flawed from the beginning how could we not choose God? We have been given free will which is the catalyst of this entire age old discussion. To choose God or not. Without flaws, with out our natural disposition to faith as opposed to logic our choice would be pointless. So, Satan is allowed to exist. Suffering is allowed. All to test whether or not we'd chose God regardless.The nature we have is a stepping block to overcome. Like I said before if were weren't flawed from the beginning how could we not choose God? We have been given free will which is the catalyst of this entire age old discussion. To choose God or not. Without flaws, with out our natural disposition to faith as opposed to logic our choice would be pointless. So, Satan is allowed to exist. Suffering is allowed. All to test whether or not we'd chose God regardless.jeremiah06
And if we don't overcome this stepping block, we suffer eternal torment as a result.
So, basically, God has given us a totally arbitrary obstacle to overcome, and not only that, but he also designed the universe in such a way that using it gives us a better life in this life in the form of modern medicine and convenience, which makes it appear in this life as not an obstacle but rather a virtue, yet when we die we will find out that it actually was an obstacle to an eternal destiny that we wouldn't have even known about had he not gotten some guys in the Middle East and the Roman Empire a couple thousand years ago to write it down in some books and then try to convince other people to read it.
...Am I getting warm? This is the perfect divine plan of an all-powerful, all-knowing creator?
[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="tocool340"] And this here.....is why I don't respect many Christians. I dislike the idea of when you are in a slump, instead of giving yourself remotely ANY credit of finding a way out of it, or pat yourself on the back, you give most, if not all, the credit to something that probably wasn't thinking about you. What makes you so special that he would decide to look pass people less fortunate than you and would allow them to continue to suffer?How could I have made that ice storm, that froze that tree, that feel on my house? I froze up out of fear and the bike swerved out of the way of the car, how can I clam credit of dodging that car? No one suffers eternally all the time forever. Something good will happen eventually. It's common Christan knowledge that those who believe in God will suffer fa more than those who don't believe. This is where Satan comes into play. He'll bless those who don't believe with worldly things so that they feel as if they don't need God. We suffer and still believe.. thats what makes us special. In that second one your survival instinct took over because you were failing at not dying, so yeah you would have dodged the car, it's not even a big feat I've done it several times. No one suffers eternally all the time forever? Isn't that the point of Christian hell? Isn't that kind of Evil under his own standards to make his own worshipers suffer? Why is Satan such a bad guy if he treats people nicely, he didn't make Hell either he just is depicted as being trapped there/taking care of it. So Christians are special because they suffer, what about Jews? They sure seem to have it way worse than Christians who are often the most powerful and wealthy people in the world. I did nothing by close my eyes and the bike moved on its own. When I brought the suffering I was referring to humans on earth. "Why is Satan such a bad guy if he treats people nicely" Satan is after your soul. He wishes to deceive you into siding with him over God. I can't answer that. I'm not all knowing I can only share the knowledge and experiences that I have.Ace6301
In that second one your survival instinct took over because you were failing at not dying, so yeah you would have dodged the car, it's not even a big feat I've done it several times. No one suffers eternally all the time forever? Isn't that the point of Christian hell? Isn't that kind of Evil under his own standards to make his own worshipers suffer? Why is Satan such a bad guy if he treats people nicely, he didn't make Hell either he just is depicted as being trapped there/taking care of it. So Christians are special because they suffer, what about Jews? They sure seem to have it way worse than Christians who are often the most powerful and wealthy people in the world. I did nothing by close my eyes and the bike moved on its own. When I brought the suffering I was referring to humans on earth. "Why is Satan such a bad guy if he treats people nicely" Satan is after your soul. He wishes to deceive you into siding with him over God. I can't answer that. I'm not all knowing I can only share the knowledge and experiences that I have. "The bike moved on its own" :| So the logical conclusion couldn't possibly be subconscious muscle movement; of course, it had to be God![QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="jeremiah06"] How could I have made that ice storm, that froze that tree, that feel on my house? I froze up out of fear and the bike swerved out of the way of the car, how can I clam credit of dodging that car? No one suffers eternally all the time forever. Something good will happen eventually. It's common Christan knowledge that those who believe in God will suffer fa more than those who don't believe. This is where Satan comes into play. He'll bless those who don't believe with worldly things so that they feel as if they don't need God. We suffer and still believe.. thats what makes us special.jeremiah06
[QUOTE="jeremiah06"]The nature we have is a stepping block to overcome. Like I said before if were weren't flawed from the beginning how could we not choose God? We have been given free will which is the catalyst of this entire age old discussion. To choose God or not. Without flaws, with out our natural disposition to faith as opposed to logic our choice would be pointless. So, Satan is allowed to exist. Suffering is allowed. All to test whether or not we'd chose God regardless.GabuEx
And if we don't overcome this stepping block, we suffer eternal torment as a result.
So, basically, God has given us a totally arbitrary obstacle to overcome, and not only that, but he also designed the universe in such a way that using it gives us a better life in this life in the form of modern medicine and convenience, which makes it appear in this life as not an obstacle but rather a virtue, yet when we die we will find out that it actually was an obstacle to an eternal destiny that we wouldn't have even known about had he not gotten some guys in the Middle East and the Roman Empire a couple thousand years ago to write it down in some books and then try to convince other people to read it.
...Am I getting warm? This is the perfect divine plan of an all-powerful, all-knowing creator?
You are confusing seeking knowledge as opposed to God with using the God given elements of earth. There is nothing wrong with using the things God has given us to our advantage as long as you still believe in God at the end of the day. Think about where science/medicine/technology comes from? Everything we have/know comes from God. It only becomes evil after we replace God with this knowledge. Its a different thing to use a computer than it is to worship dell for giving you a box that God could not.[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="jeremiah06"]The nature we have is a stepping block to overcome. Like I said before if were weren't flawed from the beginning how could we not choose God? We have been given free will which is the catalyst of this entire age old discussion. To choose God or not. Without flaws, with out our natural disposition to faith as opposed to logic our choice would be pointless. So, Satan is allowed to exist. Suffering is allowed. All to test whether or not we'd chose God regardless.jeremiah06
And if we don't overcome this stepping block, we suffer eternal torment as a result.
So, basically, God has given us a totally arbitrary obstacle to overcome, and not only that, but he also designed the universe in such a way that using it gives us a better life in this life in the form of modern medicine and convenience, which makes it appear in this life as not an obstacle but rather a virtue, yet when we die we will find out that it actually was an obstacle to an eternal destiny that we wouldn't have even known about had he not gotten some guys in the Middle East and the Roman Empire a couple thousand years ago to write it down in some books and then try to convince other people to read it.
...Am I getting warm? This is the perfect divine plan of an all-powerful, all-knowing creator?
You are confusing seeking knowledge as opposed to God with using the God given elements of earth. There is nothing wrong with using the things God has given us to our advantage as long as you still believe in God at the end of the day. Think about where science/medicine/technology comes from? Everything we have/know comes from God. It only becomes evil after we replace God with this knowledge. Its a different thing to use a computer than it is to worship dell for giving you a box that God could not. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time taking seriously the religious beliefs of any group that prays to Jesus and not God. That is blasphemy by your own standards, because you should have no false idols and "no God before me".You are confusing seeking knowledge as opposed to God with using the God given elements of earth. There is nothing wrong with using the things God has given us to our advantage as long as you still believe in God at the end of the day. Think about where science/medicine/technology comes from? Everything we have/know comes from God. It only becomes evil after we replace God with this knowledge. Its a different thing to use a computer than it is to worship dell for giving you a box that God could not.jeremiah06
What exactly differentiates knowledge that is opposed to God from knowledge that is not opposed to God? When Adam and Eve ate the apple from the Tree of Knowledge, they gained insight into good or evil. They didn't begin to worship it. They just knew it. And that was, it seems, bad enough.
Unfortunately, your preference has no impact on the truth.WelkabonzThis rationale is no better than that which TC used. :|
[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]You are confusing seeking knowledge as opposed to God with using the God given elements of earth. There is nothing wrong with using the things God has given us to our advantage as long as you still believe in God at the end of the day. Think about where science/medicine/technology comes from? Everything we have/know comes from God. It only becomes evil after we replace God with this knowledge. Its a different thing to use a computer than it is to worship dell for giving you a box that God could not. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time taking seriously the religious beliefs of any group that prays to Jesus and not God. That is blasphemy by your own standards, because you should have no false idols and "no God before me". Jesus is God, and so is the holy spit. They are all three separate beings yet they are all one.And if we don't overcome this stepping block, we suffer eternal torment as a result.
So, basically, God has given us a totally arbitrary obstacle to overcome, and not only that, but he also designed the universe in such a way that using it gives us a better life in this life in the form of modern medicine and convenience, which makes it appear in this life as not an obstacle but rather a virtue, yet when we die we will find out that it actually was an obstacle to an eternal destiny that we wouldn't have even known about had he not gotten some guys in the Middle East and the Roman Empire a couple thousand years ago to write it down in some books and then try to convince other people to read it.
...Am I getting warm? This is the perfect divine plan of an all-powerful, all-knowing creator?
jalexbrown
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time taking seriously the religious beliefs of any group that prays to Jesus and not God. That is blasphemy by your own standards, because you should have no false idols and "no God before me". Jesus is God, and so is the holy spit. They are all three separate beings yet they are all one. Why did God need a personification? I fail to see why an omnipotent God would need to come to Earth in the form of a mere human. I also fail to see how God could be his own son.[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="jeremiah06"] You are confusing seeking knowledge as opposed to God with using the God given elements of earth. There is nothing wrong with using the things God has given us to our advantage as long as you still believe in God at the end of the day. Think about where science/medicine/technology comes from? Everything we have/know comes from God. It only becomes evil after we replace God with this knowledge. Its a different thing to use a computer than it is to worship dell for giving you a box that God could not.jeremiah06
[QUOTE="Welkabonz"]Unfortunately, your preference has no impact on the truth.jalexbrownThis rationale is no better than that which TC used. :| You're right. We should believe in eternal finances because it's better than the alternative. :|
[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="Welkabonz"]Unfortunately, your preference has no impact on the truth.WelkabonzThis rationale is no better than that which TC used. :| You're right. We should believe in eternal finances because it's better than the alternative. :| I don't care who believes in what, but to dismiss any possibility is foolish, and trying to pass off your preference as "the truth" is even more foolish.
[QUOTE="jeremiah06"]You are confusing seeking knowledge as opposed to God with using the God given elements of earth. There is nothing wrong with using the things God has given us to our advantage as long as you still believe in God at the end of the day. Think about where science/medicine/technology comes from? Everything we have/know comes from God. It only becomes evil after we replace God with this knowledge. Its a different thing to use a computer than it is to worship dell for giving you a box that God could not.GabuEx
What exactly differentiates knowledge that is opposed to God from knowledge that is not opposed to God? When Adam and Eve ate the apple from the Tree of Knowledge, they gained insight into good or evil. They didn't begin to worship it. They just knew it. And that was, it seems, bad enough.
Thats because they chose to listen to Satan over God. Adam and eve did not seek knowledge as a art of their nature. God didn't design us with that nature right off. He gave that knowledge seeking nature to the fruit. It was only after we ate that fruit that we gained that nature. God wanted to protect us from the harsh realities of the world(evil). So, he told them not to eat the fruit. However, Satan deceived them into eating the fruit so that we could grow a capacity for evil. The lesson here is not that knowledge in it's self is evil but that choosing to go against the will of God for the sake of knowledge is. Thats the difference God should be put over all else.[QUOTE="jeremiah06"]Jesus is God, and so is the holy spit. They are all three separate beings yet they are all one. Why did God need a personification? I fail to see why an omnipotent God would need to come to Earth in the form of a mere human. I also fail to see how God could be his own son. Because it was the only way besides forcing us... He wanted us to choose him, not be forced into it. The holy spit is used to combat the devil's advances. Jesus was used as a physical form to speak to us with more clarity.[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] I'm sorry, but I have a hard time taking seriously the religious beliefs of any group that prays to Jesus and not God. That is blasphemy by your own standards, because you should have no false idols and "no God before me".jalexbrown
[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="jeremiah06"] Jesus is God, and so is the holy spit. They are all three separate beings yet they are all one.Why did God need a personification? I fail to see why an omnipotent God would need to come to Earth in the form of a mere human. I also fail to see how God could be his own son. Because it was the only way besides forcing us... He wanted us to choose him, not be forced into it. The holy spit is used to combat the devil's advances. Jesus was used as a physical form to speak to us with more clarity. So how is Jesus the son of God if he's God?jeremiah06
[QUOTE="tocool340"]And this here.....is why I don't respect many Christians. I dislike the idea of when you are in a slump, instead of giving yourself remotely ANY credit of finding a way out of it, or pat yourself on the back, you give most, if not all, the credit to something that probably wasn't thinking about you. What makes you so special that he would decide to look pass people less fortunate than you and would allow them to continue to suffer? How could I have made that ice storm, that froze that tree, that feel on my house? I froze up out of fear and the bike swerved out of the way of the car, how can I clam credit of dodging that car? No one suffers eternally all the time forever. Something good will happen eventually. It's common Christan knowledge that those who believe in God will suffer fa more than those who don't believe. This is where Satan comes into play. He'll bless those who don't believe with worldly things so that they feel as if they don't need God. We suffer and still believe.. thats what makes us special. Possibly out of determination? The will to live? Maybe because the driver was pretty skilled at driving in those conditions. It's not like the car levitated, allowed you to go through, then it drove away. Because that would truly be the work of a caring God, not having a close call. It seem like you don't want to acknowledge all the other possibilities or factors that could have been the reason you survived that day, but want to say "God done it"... And since when does Satan have to power to bless anyone? Name all the times in the Bible, preferably the OT, that he has ever blessed someone for not believing in God, let alone shown his face?...[QUOTE="jeremiah06"] Personally, I believe in God because he has called out to me and has shown me that he does exist. It's not a sense of duty or fear(I'm my religion people say they are God fearing. However, its not fear as in afraid. In the original translation it would be closer to respect.) There have been many times my prayers have been answered. I've even faced death and my survival was not due to my own hands. In short, I can feel God in my heart. There is no logical explanation I can give. I don't believe that, that bike turning on its own, that random lady giving me a dime(the amount I was short), that tree falling on my house(which caused insurance to fix our already broken furnace that wasn't covered) was coincidence. There are many other times/experiences, but I can't possible share them all. jeremiah06
It is easy to not believe in God. For all that is right in this world there is just as much if not MORE that is WRONG with it.
I honestly hope there is a truely just God and an afterlife. To think that a girl could be abuse and tortured all her life, and then have her life taken away when she is only 16 when her house caught fire while her parents had her strapped to her bed (happened here in Michigan) is just maddening. It depresses me and yet angers me to an extreme level that someone could experience almost nothing but pain their whole life for no justifiable reason. I really like the idea of people getting what they deserve, both good AND bad.
At the same time though, I completely lack faith in anything. If I can't have faith in people, something I KNOW exist and can be capable of doing good, then how am I suppossed to have faith that there is some all-powerful and all-loving entity over-seeing the universe? I am just in-capable of following a religion I have found. If my lack of fatih doesn't get in the way then my stubborness does. I was raised Christian but while I still hold alot of the morals and ideals, I can't believe in said God. I feel a truely loving God wouldn't condemn one to eternal torture for simply not believing or being gay.
Because it was the only way besides forcing us... He wanted us to choose him, not be forced into it. The holy spit is used to combat the devil's advances. Jesus was used as a physical form to speak to us with more clarity. So how is Jesus the son of God if he's God? Because God is omnipotent. He is his son and himself at the same time yet they are separate.[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="jalexbrown"] Why did God need a personification? I fail to see why an omnipotent God would need to come to Earth in the form of a mere human. I also fail to see how God could be his own son.jalexbrown
Easily.
I just don't. Why should I believe that this "perfect balance" you speak of is the result of some higher power?
Thats because they chose to listen to Satan over God. Adam and eve did not seek knowledge as a art of their nature. God didn't design us with that nature right off. He gave that knowledge seeking nature to the fruit. It was only after we ate that fruit that we gained that nature. God wanted to protect us from the harsh realities of the world(evil). So, he told them not to eat the fruit. However, Satan deceived them into eating the fruit so that we could grow a capacity for evil. The lesson here is not that knowledge in it's self is evil but that choosing to go against the will of God for the sake of knowledge is. Thats the difference God should be put over all else. jeremiah06
And why were we capable of being tricked by the serpent? And why was the serpent allowed to attempt to trick us?
[QUOTE="jeremiah06"]Thats because they chose to listen to Satan over God. Adam and eve did not seek knowledge as a art of their nature. God didn't design us with that nature right off. He gave that knowledge seeking nature to the fruit. It was only after we ate that fruit that we gained that nature. God wanted to protect us from the harsh realities of the world(evil). So, he told them not to eat the fruit. However, Satan deceived them into eating the fruit so that we could grow a capacity for evil. The lesson here is not that knowledge in it's self is evil but that choosing to go against the will of God for the sake of knowledge is. Thats the difference God should be put over all else. GabuEx
And why were we capable of being tricked by the serpent?
Why would God be idiot enough to put something like that fruit in the garden when he knew that we could be deceived? Don't tell me it was for decoration. More importantly, how could he not know that there was a talking serpent manipulating one of his children?Everything is just in perfect balance.The birds singing the wind trees the flowers the world is beautiful..This all cant just happen by chance..I mean really come on just because you dont see it doesnt mean its not there.Everybody has a mind a brain a soul a voice that tells them right or wrong god gave everybody free will.And besides ive rather believe in something than not beieving in anything at all.Some atheists act like christians fear death and worry about it..We dont fear it we welcome it when our time comes to be with our family.And you guys think christians follow the rules without disobeying we dont god forgives us.I just dont get how you guys dont believe in God
wickedwaffle
Can you prove that there is god(s)? Im not saying there isn't one but there is other theorys on how we are made such as the big bang theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="tocool340"] And this here.....is why I don't respect many Christians. I dislike the idea of when you are in a slump, instead of giving yourself remotely ANY credit of finding a way out of it, or pat yourself on the back, you give most, if not all, the credit to something that probably wasn't thinking about you. What makes you so special that he would decide to look pass people less fortunate than you and would allow them to continue to suffer?How could I have made that ice storm, that froze that tree, that feel on my house? I froze up out of fear and the bike swerved out of the way of the car, how can I clam credit of dodging that car? No one suffers eternally all the time forever. Something good will happen eventually. It's common Christan knowledge that those who believe in God will suffer fa more than those who don't believe. This is where Satan comes into play. He'll bless those who don't believe with worldly things so that they feel as if they don't need God. We suffer and still believe.. thats what makes us special. Possibly out of determination? The will to live? Maybe because the driver was pretty skilled at driving in those conditions. It's not like the car levitated, allowed you to go through, then it drove away. Because that would truly be the work of a caring God, not having a close call. It seem like you don't want to acknowledge all the other possibilities or factors that could have been the reason you survived that day, but want to say "God done it"... And since when does Satan have to power to bless anyone? Name all the times in the Bible, preferably the OT, that he has ever blessed someone for not believing in God, let alone shown his face?... I did nothing and the driver kept straight. One thing about God is that he acts within the grounds of the rules he set for the world. Any twitch/random movement/gravitational force that may have been the cause of my bike moving out of the way was caused by God. Bless may have been the wrong term but Satan does grant worldly things to those faithful to him. That actor that comprised his morals to gain a roll n a movie. The Mob boss who killed his way up to the top. The rich atheist. Those twisted thoughts you form in your mind of dong evil are the devil's nflouence and the thoughts telling you to do the right thing is the holy spirit.tocool340
[QUOTE="wickedwaffle"]You're welcome. Some of these people are blasphemers and are insulting God. Why can't you all get it? because there is no god? why cant you get it? why do you feel the need to believe in this and choose not to believe in the easter bunny instead?thannnnnnnk you tigertechiefor helpin me try to talk some sese into these people wow already 40 pages.Im back
tigertechie
[QUOTE="jeremiah06"]Thats because they chose to listen to Satan over God. Adam and eve did not seek knowledge as a art of their nature. God didn't design us with that nature right off. He gave that knowledge seeking nature to the fruit. It was only after we ate that fruit that we gained that nature. God wanted to protect us from the harsh realities of the world(evil). So, he told them not to eat the fruit. However, Satan deceived them into eating the fruit so that we could grow a capacity for evil. The lesson here is not that knowledge in it's self is evil but that choosing to go against the will of God for the sake of knowledge is. Thats the difference God should be put over all else. GabuEx
And why were we capable of being tricked by the serpent? And why was the serpent allowed to attempt to trick us?
Because we are not perfect. Because creating us perfect would defeated the purpose of having us choose him. Like I said God does not force us. We are allowed to be tempted so that we may have a choice at good or evil. If we had not ate the fruit then the choice of evil wouldn't be present. Everything went according to plan.Please Log In to post.
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