I want to be TAXED more, now.

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Democratik

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#1 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts

Im not kidding either. I want to make sure everyone has the ability to eat in this country. I want to make sure everyone(including me) has the right to an education(which includes college) and health care.

Collectivism is the only way. human beings are collective by nature. Why? Notice when you're in a group, do you act like a jerk if you dont need them? Most people dont. Social responsibility.

I've never heard a good argument stating that we are entitled to property. Everything we own is a result of many people, without them it cannot exist, and without them it cannot have value. Most libertarians say we are entitled to our property in one breathe, and then claim to support a police force and military based upon taxation. It seems libertarians dont care about property rights... They claim that if we dont provide these things that life would be worse. This proves two things

1) The government is good at providing things

2) You dont actually believe in property rights.

Conclusion: Why not provide more services? Since you dont believe in full-on property rights and believe that some wealth belongs to everyone. The Richest people in the world are respected by libertarians, but they can only make their profits with a functioning government, which requires all of us. Its selfish to think they deserve more of the pie than others do because they NEED the rest of society. Society made it POSSIBLE for them to be rich in the first place.

Although its not logically necessary to tell you to discuss the ideas here, i will. To avoid this topic from getting locked.

What do you think about getting taxed more?

What do you think about the argument I presented? Keep in mind, I didnt make it as detailed as it should be... We all know most people read the topic title and respond.

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Wolls

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#2 Wolls
Member since 2005 • 19119 Posts

Have you tried volunteering :)

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JustPlainLucas

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#3 JustPlainLucas
Member since 2002 • 80441 Posts
I can barely break even. Tell you what, if you can afford to pay more taxes, then you should be allowed to, but if you're struggling, you should pay less. Only fair in my eyes.
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clyde46

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#4 clyde46
Member since 2005 • 49061 Posts

I love being a student. No tax for me :D

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deactivated-5d3f5f1ece8fb

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#5 deactivated-5d3f5f1ece8fb
Member since 2004 • 865 Posts

then donate money

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Engrish_Major

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#6 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
If my increased tax dollars go towards a meaningful program that provides a comparitive product that otherwise replaces one coming from a for-profit corporation, then sure. Increase my taxes.
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Democratik

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#7 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts

Have you tried volunteering :)

Wolls
I actually voluntary give things away a lot. I find it easier than trying to sell my stuff. Despite the fact that ive never had a lot of money in my life, my family has always given to charity.
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Democratik

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#8 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts
If my increased tax dollars go towards a meaningful program that provides a comparitive product that otherwise replaces one coming from a for-profit corporation, then sure. Increase my taxes.Engrish_Major
Exactly. Who wouldnt want limitless access to education? Most people complain about others being stupid.... Rational self interest is the basis of capitalism... Well, its in your rational self interest to make sure everyones educated...
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shinian

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#9 shinian
Member since 2005 • 6871 Posts
Sorry but communism looks only ok'ay on paper.
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Oleg_Huzwog

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#10 Oleg_Huzwog
Member since 2007 • 21885 Posts

If whatever it is I'll be receiving in exchange for the higher tax is something I want or need... sure, raise my taxes.

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Engrish_Major

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#11 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
Sorry but communism looks only ok'ay on paper.shinian
More taxes =/= Communism.
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Phoenix534

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#12 Phoenix534
Member since 2008 • 17774 Posts

I'd be fine with a slight bit more taxation, if the government knew how to spend money.

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shinian

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#13 shinian
Member since 2005 • 6871 Posts

[QUOTE="shinian"]Sorry but communism looks only ok'ay on paper.Engrish_Major
More taxes =/= Communism.

I was reffering to:

"Collectivism is the only way. human beings are collective by nature."

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Democratik

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#14 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts
Sorry but communism looks only ok'ay on paper.shinian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism What I described isnt communism. Nor is it marxism. ButThat link will actually let you be educated as to what communism is, as it explains it.
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#15 Wolls
Member since 2005 • 19119 Posts
[QUOTE="Wolls"]

Have you tried volunteering :)

Democratik
I actually voluntary give things away a lot. I find it easier than trying to sell my stuff. Despite the fact that ive never had a lot of money in my life, my family has always given to charity.

Well thats great, but i would still surgest that you give up your time as well and properly go down and either hand your stuff out or join a soup kitchen or anything really, i think you would enjoy that even more because you would be seeing what your hard work is doing and thats even better than just knowing your doing your bit :)
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Democratik

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#16 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="shinian"]Sorry but communism looks only ok'ay on paper.shinian

More taxes =/= Communism.

I was reffering to:

"Collectivism is the only way. human beings are collective by nature."

Every nation on the planet is collectivist.
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dmc333

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#17 dmc333
Member since 2002 • 766 Posts

[QUOTE="Wolls"]

Have you tried volunteering :)

Democratik

I actually voluntary give things away a lot. I find it easier than trying to sell my stuff. Despite the fact that ive never had a lot of money in my life, my family has always given to charity.

Volunteering does not require higher taxes. Neither does giving things away. Your sig also carries red and black, which generally refers to the left wing libertarian groups, who probably wouldn't like your idea of taxes....

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Engrish_Major

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#18 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
Exactly. Who wouldnt want limitless access to education? Most people complain about others being stupid.... Rational self interest is the basis of capitalism... Well, its in your rational self interest to make sure everyones educated...Democratik
Sociologists and historians agree that one of the main causes of the vast expansion of the middle class in the U.S. in most of the 20th Century was attributed to the availability of 12 years of free education to the entire population. Imagine how prosperous our future would become if everyone had access to a college education in this country.
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Snipes_2

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#19 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

No, We're being taxed too much already.

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Democratik

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#20 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts
[QUOTE="Democratik"][QUOTE="Wolls"]

Have you tried volunteering :)

Wolls
I actually voluntary give things away a lot. I find it easier than trying to sell my stuff. Despite the fact that ive never had a lot of money in my life, my family has always given to charity.

Well thats great, but i would still surgest that you give up your time as well and properly go down and either hand your stuff out or join a soup kitchen or anything really, i think you would enjoy that even more because you would be seeing what your hard work is doing and thats even better than just knowing your doing your bit :)

Thats not doing enough to combat poverty. We need social justice, then they wont be as poor, and theyll have an easier path out of poverty. This is a legitimate government responsibility
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Engrish_Major

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#21 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
[QUOTE="shinian"]

I was reffering to:

"Collectivism is the only way. human beings are collective by nature."

Still, Communism means that the workers control the means of production. The TC did not endorse that. Communism is a form of collectivism, but collectivism is not necessarily communism.
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Democratik

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#22 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts

[QUOTE="Democratik"][QUOTE="Wolls"]

Have you tried volunteering :)

dmc333

I actually voluntary give things away a lot. I find it easier than trying to sell my stuff. Despite the fact that ive never had a lot of money in my life, my family has always given to charity.

Volunteering does not require higher taxes. Neither does giving things away. Your sig also carries red and black, which generally refers to the left wing libertarian groups, who probably wouldn't like your idea of taxes....

I actually believe in social democracy for the most part. But im open minded to libertarian socialism. As long as a state exists, it might as well benefit everyone. Most left wing anarchy groups arent actual anarchy anyway. Even Noam Chomsky has advocated forms of taxation.
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Democratik

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#23 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts
[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="shinian"]

I was reffering to:

"Collectivism is the only way. human beings are collective by nature."

Still, Communism means that the workers control the means of production. The TC did not endorse that. Communism is a form of collectivism, but collectivism is not necessarily communism.

Although, I do agree that corporations should be owned and operated by the workers. That would be socialism. Communism is what happens after socialism, according to marx. in a nutshell
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mfp16

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#24 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts

why should I, a person who studied, worked hard, and strove to be successful have to pay for people who didn't? I'm sorry, my money is the fruit of MY labors... It's not my responsibility to take care of those who didn't care.

Edit: apparently "strived" isn't a word... it's supposed to be strove... news to me :)

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dmc333

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#25 dmc333
Member since 2002 • 766 Posts

[QUOTE="dmc333"]

[QUOTE="Democratik"] I actually voluntary give things away a lot. I find it easier than trying to sell my stuff. Despite the fact that ive never had a lot of money in my life, my family has always given to charity.Democratik

Volunteering does not require higher taxes. Neither does giving things away. Your sig also carries red and black, which generally refers to the left wing libertarian groups, who probably wouldn't like your idea of taxes....

I actually believe in social democracy for the most part. But im open minded to libertarian socialism. As long as a state exists, it might as well benefit everyone. Most left wing anarchy groups arent actual anarchy anyway. Even Noam Chomsky has advocated forms of taxation.

What is "actual anarchy"?

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Engrish_Major

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#26 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
why should I, a person who studied, worked hard, and strive to be successful have to pay for people who didn't? I'm sorry, my money is the fruit of MY labors... It's not my responsibility to take care of those who didn't.mfp16
Why should you? Because you are a part of society. Your personal feelings are less important than the proper functioning of society as a whole.
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Democratik

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#27 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts
[QUOTE="mfp16"]why should I, a person who studied, worked hard, and strive to be successful have to pay for people who didn't? I'm sorry, my money is the fruit of MY labors... It's not my responsibility to take care of those who didn't.

The entire economy is dependent on everyone in the society. Its not the fruit of your labor as my original post has proven, which i doubt you read at all. Yes it is your responsibility, because society took care of you. Dont think so? Directly respond to all of my arguments in the original post
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Snipes_2

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#28 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

why should I, a person who studied, worked hard, and strove to be successful have to pay for people who didn't? I'm sorry, my money is the fruit of MY labors... It's not my responsibility to take care of those who didn't care.

Edit: apparently "strived" isn't a word... it's supposed to be strove... news to me :)

mfp16

Exactly. Why should you pay more because you worked harder?

IF you WANT to give more money to the state, then by all means, just leave me out of it. :P

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mfp16

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#29 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
[QUOTE="mfp16"]why should I, a person who studied, worked hard, and strive to be successful have to pay for people who didn't? I'm sorry, my money is the fruit of MY labors... It's not my responsibility to take care of those who didn't.Engrish_Major
Why should you? Because you are a part of society. Your personal feelings are less important than the proper functioning of society as a whole.

So says you... I disagree
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Engrish_Major

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#30 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Exactly. Why should you pay more because you worked harder?

Richer =/= worked harder.
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Democratik

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#31 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts

[QUOTE="Democratik"][QUOTE="dmc333"]

Volunteering does not require higher taxes. Neither does giving things away. Your sig also carries red and black, which generally refers to the left wing libertarian groups, who probably wouldn't like your idea of taxes....

dmc333

I actually believe in social democracy for the most part. But im open minded to libertarian socialism. As long as a state exists, it might as well benefit everyone. Most left wing anarchy groups arent actual anarchy anyway. Even Noam Chomsky has advocated forms of taxation.

What is "actual anarchy"?

anarcho capitalism is the only system that really makes sense, because its really not organized by any form of state or collective. It wouldnt last at all, but thats not the point.
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Assassin1349

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#32 Assassin1349
Member since 2009 • 2798 Posts

Dude, no. I barely have any money. They should allow people to volunteer to be taxed more, but keep me out of it broseph.

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mfp16

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#33 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Exactly. Why should you pay more because you worked harder?

Richer =/= worked harder.

The vast majority of time... it does. There are exceptions to almost every rule.
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Democratik

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#34 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts
[QUOTE="mfp16"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="mfp16"] So says you... I disagree

I would actually believe you disagree if you provided an argument, but it seems that you do agree and dont want to admit it

[QUOTE="mfp16"]

why should I, a person who studied, worked hard, and strove to be successful have to pay for people who didn't? I'm sorry, my money is the fruit of MY labors... It's not my responsibility to take care of those who didn't care.

Edit: apparently "strived" isn't a word... it's supposed to be strove... news to me :)

Snipes_2

Exactly. Why should you pay more because you worked harder?

IF you WANT to give more money to the state, then by all means, just leave me out of it. :P

You simply benefit more from the collective system in the united states. It definitely is a COLLECTIVE system.
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Engrish_Major

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#36 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
So says you... I disagreemfp16
You state that your money is the fruit of your labors. But who's labor got us to the point where we are able to work, eat, relax, and enjoy life in the first place? 99% of the benefits that you enjoy were not directly created by you. We live on the sweat and tears of our ancestors, and it is our duty to give back to society to ensure a proper living place for the future (and current) residents of the land which we share.
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mattbbpl

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#37 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23343 Posts
We (the US) already pay taxes so other people can eat, go to school (inclusing college), AND have healthcare...
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#38 aransom
Member since 2002 • 7408 Posts

I've never heard a good argument stating that we are entitled to property.

Democratik

Give me your address. I'll come over with a friend, and we'll have a vote on whether or not we should take away all your stuff.

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Democratik

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#39 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts
[QUOTE="mfp16"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Exactly. Why should you pay more because you worked harder?

Richer =/= worked harder.

The vast majority of time... it does. There are exceptions to almost every rule.

Not really. Knowing how to work financial markets, or to exploit people for low wages does not mean you work harder. people at the bottom work just as hard, but arent given any real opportunities to do things they deem important
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#40 Wolls
Member since 2005 • 19119 Posts
[QUOTE="Democratik"][QUOTE="Wolls"][QUOTE="Democratik"] I actually voluntary give things away a lot. I find it easier than trying to sell my stuff. Despite the fact that ive never had a lot of money in my life, my family has always given to charity.

Well thats great, but i would still surgest that you give up your time as well and properly go down and either hand your stuff out or join a soup kitchen or anything really, i think you would enjoy that even more because you would be seeing what your hard work is doing and thats even better than just knowing your doing your bit :)

Thats not doing enough to combat poverty. We need social justice, then they wont be as poor, and theyll have an easier path out of poverty. This is a legitimate government responsibility

No i totally agree, governments dont do enough really....... however theres always a nagging thought in the back of my mind that welth in capitalisum is only relative, and if i really had to say i couldnt ever see a world with zero poverty.
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mfp16

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#41 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
[QUOTE="mfp16"]So says you... I disagreeEngrish_Major
You state that your money is the fruit of your labors. But who's labor got us to the point where we are able to work, eat, relax, and enjoy life in the first place? 99% of the benefits that you enjoy were not directly created by you. We live on the sweat and tears of our ancestors, and it is our duty to give back to society to ensure a proper living place for the future (and current) residents of the land which we share.

If you would like me to donate a portion of my wages to those who paved the way... by all means... but that isn't what is being discussed, it's giving my money to other people who didn't work as hard as I did.
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#42 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

The vast majority of time... it does. There are exceptions to almost every rule.mfp16
I don't think that it is applicable the vast majority of the time. Despite what people like to think, we live in a classful society. Your future prosperity is heavily dependent on your initial environment. If you were born rich, you will stay that way, and the inverse is true.

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#43 Renegade_Fury
Member since 2003 • 21755 Posts

**** that. Donate as much as you want, but I won't give a cent more than I have to towards taxes.

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Snipes_2

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#44 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

You're rich because you worked hard. It's very rare that a Wealthy Person hasn't endured at least some Hardships before they got to where they are today.

You don't just end up on the top.

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Democratik

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#45 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts

[QUOTE="Democratik"]

I've never heard a good argument stating that we are entitled to property.

aransom

Give me your address. I'll come over with a friend, and we'll have a vote on whether or not we should take away all your stuff.

I want you to prove empirically that you own something.
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Engrish_Major

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#46 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
If you would like me to donate a portion of my wages to those who paved the way... by all means... but that isn't what is being discussed, it's giving my money to other people who didn't work as hard as I did.mfp16
Again, it is not about who worked the hardest. It is about contributing to society in leu of private corporations. And I was not talking about donating to your ancestors, it is about doing as they have done, and make this world a better place yourself.
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XD4NTESINF3RNOX

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#47 XD4NTESINF3RNOX
Member since 2008 • 7438 Posts

Why should MY money being taken away when I work for it? Why should I have to provide for someone else? I mean family of course I will, but a person that has done nothing for me nor that I even know I don't understand why I should have to give them my hard earned money....

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dmc333

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#48 dmc333
Member since 2002 • 766 Posts

[QUOTE="dmc333"]

[QUOTE="Democratik"] I actually believe in social democracy for the most part. But im open minded to libertarian socialism. As long as a state exists, it might as well benefit everyone. Most left wing anarchy groups arent actual anarchy anyway. Even Noam Chomsky has advocated forms of taxation.Democratik

What is "actual anarchy"?

anarcho capitalism is the only system that really makes sense, because its really not organized by any form of state or collective. It wouldnt last at all, but thats not the point.

:sigh:.

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#49 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127731 Posts
I'm getting taxed 36% already and it's loads of "taxes" on everything I buy. I believe my government can make more use of the money they get through taxes and so on than they are. I want to see something done better than it is now before I pay more. Or make a lot of more money so it wont hurt so much to pay more than 36%. I mean I get more left to use on what I want anyway...
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#50 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
[QUOTE="mfp16"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]Richer =/= worked harder.Democratik
The vast majority of time... it does. There are exceptions to almost every rule.

Not really. Knowing how to work financial markets, or to exploit people for low wages does not mean you work harder. people at the bottom work just as hard, but arent given any real opportunities to do things they deem important

That makes zero sense... you are talking about a percent of a percent of people... The fact remains... you want to take my money and give it to people who didn't care to become educated... Every single person in the US has an opportunity to attend a university and earn a degree through financial aid, low interest loans, and scholarships if they care to expend the effort... If someone didn't I'm certainly not going to shed any tears.