Not to sound completely insensitive, but if everyone has a p.h.d. who's going to want to flip burgers at McDonald's?guynamedbillywhen that happens then we can have that argument... but that isn't reality.
This topic is locked from further discussion.
you sound very spiteful......lazzordudeWhat does that have to do with anything? I am stating that he, through no action of his own, has money coming towards his education.
[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="lazzordude"]stop comparing office work to factory work. its not a 1:1 comparison. the vast majority of people that have "hard working jobs" are people who went straight to work after high school, sometimes they even quit high school to go to work. the people who truly worked harder are the ones who got a good education and earned a good job. mfp16So, do you believe that a person who lives in a slum in Detroit has equal access to good education than a person who grew up in a comfortable suburb of Washington DC? Yes...actually I would. I have been to inner city schools, I've seen the instruction. They don't do anything differently than those suburb schools do. The difference lies in the value the students place on the education they should be receiving. Like it or not, there are consequences for placing no value on education. Those consequences are living a much more difficult life than those who took a different path. As I mentioned before, there are exceptions to every rule, those who have mental deficiencies, physical disabilities, etc. - I already pay a portion of my taxes to help take care of those people. I will fight kicking and screaming before some politician tells me I need to give away my money for people who didn't see the value in their education and work hard to provide for themselves... and I vote! What if the child has to say... look after a sibling while there parents get high on drugs and the rest of the family doesnt care causing the to spend all there time being a parent, preventing them from studying hard, getting into college and getting a good job?
Not to sound completely insensitive, but if everyone has a p.h.d. who's going to want to flip burgers at McDonald's?guynamedbillyCountries that offer free college do so not on a financial basis, but on a basis of aptitude. Not everyone has to get a PHD. It just separates initial wealth from the equation.
[QUOTE="XD4NTESINF3RNOX"]Ugh yes I am so that's why I'm going to repay them when I get a good job ..that's the whole point in staying in school and getting an educated so you can help your family and help yourself, but eh guess I'm just a greedy S.O.B Engrish_MajorI'm not talking about repayment. You are lucky enough to be in a situation (through no action of your own) where your higher education is made readily available to you. Are you mad that I got placed in a good family that cares about me...?
[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]You keep quoting "hard work" like it's the only part of the equation. As you seem to ignore, there are concrete methods to increase one's wealth - personal investment, working hard to move up, and the aquizition of personal risk. And yes, people with higher paying jobs have typically performed at least one of these steps. Engrish_MajorYes, and what I am saying is that these methods have a much different chance of paying off, and a different amount of reward realized, depending on the environment one happens to be born into. In college, my roommate's familay made $2,000 annually. Through financial aid, he went to school without paying a dime and now makes $60,000 dollars a year. Another buddy of mine was in a similar situation but from Jamaica. He's now a lawyer. My parent b oth grew up in slums. Both are extremely successful. Each of their siblings also make very good livings.
[QUOTE="XD4NTESINF3RNOX"]Ugh yes I am so that's why I'm going to repay them when I get a good job ..that's the whole point in staying in school and getting an educated so you can help your family and help yourself, but eh guess I'm just a greedy S.O.B Engrish_MajorI'm not talking about repayment. You are lucky enough to be in a situation (through no action of your own) where your higher education is made readily available to you. Hard work, scholarships, and financial aid can do that for anyone else as well.. Let's not forget that anyone one of those poor people born into bad situations will go to school pretty much tuition free on the government. Now that is a tax I can get behind.
The values of the parent. However, that doesn't mean that kids can not combat that mentality (and I have seen many do just that), since they want to leave more comfortable lives.mfp16So, then the child becomes just like the parent, because they inherit both the mentality and the environment. So, do you have a solution that does not involve government intervention?
[QUOTE="lazzordude"] you sound very spiteful......Engrish_MajorWhat does that have to do with anything? I am stating that he, through no action of his own, has money coming towards his education. ever heard of scholarships? student loans? grants? there is no excuse in this country to be able to say "bu bu bu i cant afford college".
You're right, I mean I wouldn't mind getting some small percentage taken off of my paycheckto enrich society.(Hypothetically speaking because I am still a student but I am sure my stance would be the same as if I was working)
If society is enriched that will also benefit me because I am part of society, it's like an investment. I am pretty sure that I would spend the money on stuff that I don't need anyways just like everyone else with some extra money so we might as well use it for something helpful for everyone.
[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="XD4NTESINF3RNOX"]Ugh yes I am so that's why I'm going to repay them when I get a good job ..that's the whole point in staying in school and getting an educated so you can help your family and help yourself, but eh guess I'm just a greedy S.O.B XD4NTESINF3RNOXI'm not talking about repayment. You are lucky enough to be in a situation (through no action of your own) where your higher education is made readily available to you. Are you mad that I got placed in a good family that cares about me...? Why do people think I am mad? I'm trying to make a point, not make personal attacks.
[QUOTE="Democratik"]
Im not kidding either. I want to make sure everyone has the ability to eat in this country. I want to make sure everyone(including me) has the right to an education(which includes college) and health care.
Collectivism is the only way. human beings are collective by nature. Why? Notice when you're in a group, do you act like a jerk if you dont need them? Most people dont. Social responsibility.
I've never heard a good argument stating that we are entitled to property. Everything we own is a result of many people, without them it cannot exist, and without them it cannot have value. Most libertarians say we are entitled to our property in one breathe, and then claim to support a police force and military based upon taxation. It seems libertarians dont care about property rights... They claim that if we dont provide these things that life would be worse. This proves two things
1) The government is good at providing things
2) You dont actually believe in property rights.
Conclusion: Why not provide more services? Since you dont believe in full-on property rights and believe that some wealth belongs to everyone. The Richest people in the world are respected by libertarians, but they can only make their profits with a functioning government, which requires all of us. Its selfish to think they deserve more of the pie than others do because they NEED the rest of society. Society made it POSSIBLE for them to be rich in the first place.
Although its not logically necessary to tell you to discuss the ideas here, i will. To avoid this topic from getting locked.
What do you think about getting taxed more?
What do you think about the argument I presented? Keep in mind, I didnt make it as detailed as it should be... We all know most people read the topic title and respond.
Frattracide
That is such a brazen non sequiter I can't decide if your trolling or not. . .
How?Hard work, scholarships, and financial aid can do that for anyone else as well.. Let's not forget that anyone one of those poor people born into bad situations will go to school pretty much tuition free on the government. Now that is a tax I can get behind. mfp16So then we're getting somewhere. Then you do agree on giving part of your paycheck to other people.
In college, my roommate's familay made $2,000 annually. Through financial aid, he went to school without paying a dime and now makes $60,000 dollars a year. Another buddy of mine was in a similar situation but from Jamaica. He's now a lawyer. My parent b oth grew up in slums. Both are extremely successful. Each of their siblings also make very good livings. mattbbplYes, through financial aid, which is a government program coming from the paychecks of others. That's exactly what this thread is about, and what the TC and I support.
[QUOTE="mfp16"]Hard work, scholarships, and financial aid can do that for anyone else as well.. Let's not forget that anyone one of those poor people born into bad situations will go to school pretty much tuition free on the government. Now that is a tax I can get behind. Engrish_MajorSo then we're getting somewhere. Then you do agree on giving part of your paycheck to other people. ......we already do that, we're saying that we already give enough
[QUOTE="mattbbpl"] In college, my roommate's familay made $2,000 annually. Through financial aid, he went to school without paying a dime and now makes $60,000 dollars a year. Another buddy of mine was in a similar situation but from Jamaica. He's now a lawyer. My parent b oth grew up in slums. Both are extremely successful. Each of their siblings also make very good livings. Engrish_MajorYes, through financial aid, which is a government program coming from the paychecks of others. That's exactly what this thread is about, and what the TC and I support. Right. but the TC is asking for MORE. That's what this thread is about. It's even in the title...
[QUOTE="mfp16"]Hard work, scholarships, and financial aid can do that for anyone else as well.. Let's not forget that anyone one of those poor people born into bad situations will go to school pretty much tuition free on the government. Now that is a tax I can get behind. Engrish_MajorSo then we're getting somewhere. Then you do agree on giving part of your paycheck to other people. I guess you caught me.. yes, I would be willing to give up a large portion of my salary to help children attain a meaningful education if they wanted one. I'm not anti-helping people. I'm quite happy to share my wages with those who do not have the ability to work (mental retardation, physical disability, etc), to help people who have lost their jobs for a short time, and to education young people as pre-college, and college students who don't have the means to help themselves. Children who need help are a different matter altogether. However, an adult who would like to receive an education would also work for me too... That isn't the main purpose of this thread as I understand it to be. We are talking about taking my wages to help people who had the ability to help themselves.
......we already do that, we're saying that we already give enoughlazzordudeWe certainly can cut spending on other places (such as military), but that could cause higher unemployment. However, there are other ways to give equal access to resources to the less fortunate than college aid. For instance, public transit infrastructure in low-income neighborhoods help the poor to get to job areas. Giving government incentives to banks and supermarkets help these people get access to financial services and healthy food. And, lets not even start on health care in this country. Education is but one part of the puzzle.
[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="mfp16"]Hard work, scholarships, and financial aid can do that for anyone else as well.. Let's not forget that anyone one of those poor people born into bad situations will go to school pretty much tuition free on the government. Now that is a tax I can get behind. lazzordudeSo then we're getting somewhere. Then you do agree on giving part of your paycheck to other people. ......we already do that, we're saying that we already give enough EXACLTY... thank you, I'm happy to help, but I help enough.
EXACLTY... thank you, I'm happy to help, but I help enough.mfp16Aaach... my post in response to this is the last post on the previous page. (I hate when that happens with a long post!) That's what I had to say about providing more government services (and thus, more taxes).
[QUOTE="mfp16"]EXACLTY... thank you, I'm happy to help, but I help enough.Engrish_MajorAaach... my post in response to this is the last post on the previous page. That's what I had to say about providing more government services (and thus, more taxes). we don't need more government services, we need to fix the ones we already have
we don't need more government services, we need to fix the ones we already havelazzordudeCan't we do both at the same time?
[QUOTE="Frattracide"][QUOTE="Democratik"]
Im not kidding either. I want to make sure everyone has the ability to eat in this country. I want to make sure everyone(including me) has the right to an education(which includes college) and health care.
Collectivism is the only way. human beings are collective by nature. Why? Notice when you're in a group, do you act like a jerk if you dont need them? Most people dont. Social responsibility.
I've never heard a good argument stating that we are entitled to property. Everything we own is a result of many people, without them it cannot exist, and without them it cannot have value. Most libertarians say we are entitled to our property in one breathe, and then claim to support a police force and military based upon taxation. It seems libertarians dont care about property rights... They claim that if we dont provide these things that life would be worse. This proves two things
1) The government is good at providing things
2) You dont actually believe in property rights.
Conclusion: Why not provide more services? Since you dont believe in full-on property rights and believe that some wealth belongs to everyone. The Richest people in the world are respected by libertarians, but they can only make their profits with a functioning government, which requires all of us. Its selfish to think they deserve more of the pie than others do because they NEED the rest of society. Society made it POSSIBLE for them to be rich in the first place.
Although its not logically necessary to tell you to discuss the ideas here, i will. To avoid this topic from getting locked.
What do you think about getting taxed more?
What do you think about the argument I presented? Keep in mind, I didnt make it as detailed as it should be... We all know most people read the topic title and respond.
Democratik
That is such a brazen non sequiter I can't decide if your trolling or not. . .
How?You go from a hasty generalization ("Most libertarians. . .claim to support a police force and military based upon taxation") To concluding that Libertarians don't "believe" in property rights and think that the government is the best choice for providing "things." Then you take that conclusion and extrapolate it to a statist ideal. Something that is inconsistent with Libertarian political philosophy.
It does not follow.
I think, either you are trolling, or, you don't understand the position you are trying to argue against.
[QUOTE="lazzordude"]we don't need more government services, we need to fix the ones we already haveEngrish_MajorCan't we do both at the same time? The government taxes my money when I make it, they tax my money when I spend it, they tax me because I own property, they tax me at every conceivable opportunity. I think I pay more than enough...
[QUOTE="lazzordude"]we don't need more government services, we need to fix the ones we already haveEngrish_MajorCan't we do both at the same time? in a fantasy world? maybe in the real world? not probable
The government taxes my money when I make it, they tax my money when I spend it, they tax me because I own property, they tax me at every conceivable opportunity. I think I pay more than enough...mfp16To be fair, most of those taxes are going towards different entities (federal and state from your paycheck, local when buying things, etc). However, remember that we still pay a bit less than most other post-industrial Western nations.
Well that's the beauty about our economic system. If you feel better about your money going to a specific cause, there are charities that you can donate to to provide that opportunity. Someone else may feel that there are better causes that their money can go to.
in a fantasy world? maybe in the real world? not probablelazzordudeIt's not probable that we can fix government programs while expanding others? Do you know how vast our government actually is, and how many people work to make this country a better place every day? Why do you think that we are unable to increase efficiency and improve existing services while simultaneously working to providing new ones?
This hasn't worked so well for the countries that have tried itPenguinchowActually, most Western nations pay higher taxes than we do.
Im not kidding either. I want to make sure everyone has the ability to eat in this country. I want to make sure everyone(including me) has the right to an education(which includes college) and health care.
I don't want to be taxed more, and I'm not kidding either. I want to make sure everyone has the ability to eat in this country while still being able to enjoy the life they enjoy without some organization saying they can't. I want to make sure everyone (including me) has the right to an education that is not controlled by that same organization and favors it over all others, as well as health care that isn't in the hands of that organization.
Collectivism is the only way. human beings are collective by nature. Why? Notice when you're in a group, do you act like a jerk if you dont need them? Most people dont. Social responsibility.
Individualism is the only way. Human beings are individuals by nature. Why? Notice when you're alone you can think for yourself and choose to either join a collective or create one of your own. Most people do, thus creating the concept of social responsibility. Collectives require individuals, thus individuals are superior to collectives.
I've never heard a good argument stating that we are entitled to property. Everything we own is a result of many people, without them it cannot exist, and without them it cannot have value. Most libertarians say we are entitled to our property in one breathe, and then claim to support a police force and military based upon taxation. It seems libertarians dont care about property rights... They claim that if we dont provide these things that life would be worse. This proves two things.
I've never heard a good argument stating that we aren't entitled to property. Everything we own is a result of many people who willingly sell us, through some middleman, the products of their labor. Most Communists say we are not entitled to our property in one breath and in the next claim to not support a police force and military that would enforce such a doctrine. It seems Communists don't care about individual rights. They claim that if we don't provide these things that life would be worse, despite the fact that there has never been a successful, industrial Communist nation. This proves two things:
1) The government is good at providing things
1. The government is bad at providing things like food and health care to people in a fair measure.
2) You dont actually believe in property rights.
2. You don't actually believe in individual rights.
Conclusion: Why not provide more services? Since you dont believe in full-on property rights and believe that some wealth belongs to everyone. The Richest people in the world are respected by libertarians, but they can only make their profits with a functioning government, which requires all of us. Its selfish to think they deserve more of the pie than others do because they NEED the rest of society. Society made it POSSIBLE for them to be rich in the first place.
Conclusion: Why not stay out of the service industries? Since you don't believe in full-on individual rights and believe that wealth belongs to everyone. The poorest people in the world are respected by Communists, because it is from the poorest people that Communists gain their power and are able to parlay that power into a dysfunctional government that caters to some minority. It is selfish to think that they deserve more of the pie than others do because they NEED the rest of society. Society made it POSSIBLE for them to be powerful in the first place.
Democratik
For my own personal piece, though, you've fallen into the naivete of Communism, that being that all people would work for the betterment of society if they could. The end result of the society you describe could be summarized in one sentence:
All animals are created equal, but some are created more equal than others.
Human nature, being derived from the animal instinct, is enough to destroy such a society within a century so long as it industrializes. The collapse of the Soviet Union should be proof enough of that. The only way such a society could exist is if it were to go back in time about two centuries, before the advent of industrial technique. If it were to do that, though, it would very quickly be destroyed by its neighbors unless they were also at such a technologically backwards point.
[QUOTE="lazzordude"]in a fantasy world? maybe in the real world? not probableEngrish_MajorIt's not probable that we can fix government programs while expanding others? Do you know how vast our government actually is, and how many people work to make this country a better place every day? Why do you think that we are unable to increase efficiency and improve existing services while simultaneously working to providing new ones? and we can turn the mojave desert into the gumdrop forest with enough tax money. Provide services to help people help themselves (education), after that it's their responsibility.
and we can turn the mojave desert into the gumdrop forest with enough tax money. Provide services to help people help themselves (education), after that it's their responsibility.mfp16Yes, but as I stated, it takes more than education to transform a community. I'm going to use an example that I see every day near me. The NoMa neighborhood of DC is an up-and-coming area that was unimaginably blighted a decade ago. One simple thing - a new Metro transit stop, funded by local, state, and federal funds, has been attributed to transforming this to one of the newest and most promising areas in DC. Now office buildings are sprouting up quickly, despite the recession. Government zoning laws require that these buildings have ground-level retail, which helps to diversify the job market there while bringing in more tax dollars. The level of jobs in this neighborhood has transformed from nail salons and Popeyes to what it is now, which includes jobs all the way from meter maids and street cleaners to high-paying corporate and office jobs. All because of an expansion of a government program (Metro), and smart zoning from the local government-funded planning boards.
How?[QUOTE="Democratik"][QUOTE="Frattracide"]
That is such a brazen non sequiter I can't decide if your trolling or not. . .
Frattracide
You go from a hasty generalization ("Most libertarians. . .claim to support a police force and military based upon taxation") To concluding that Libertarians don't "believe" in property rights and think that the government is the best choice for providing "things." Then you take that conclusion and extrapolate it to a statist ideal. Something that is inconsistent with Libertarian political philosophy.
It does not follow.
I think, either you are trolling, or, you don't understand the position you are trying to argue against.
Yes it does follow. Most libertarians are minarchists. If they believe in providing services via taxation, they do not believe in property rights since a minarchist believes that a certain a mount of your property does not belong to you. All of which is decided by the state. There is no non sequitur. I understand libertarianism quite well. Well enough to know its hypocritical unless its anarcho capitalism.[QUOTE="Democratik"]
Im not kidding either. I want to make sure everyone has the ability to eat in this country. I want to make sure everyone(including me) has the right to an education(which includes college) and health care.
I don't want to be taxed more, and I'm not kidding either. I want to make sure everyone has the ability to eat in this country while still being able to enjoy the life they enjoy without some organization saying they can't. I want to make sure everyone (including me) has the right to an education that is not controlled by that same organization and favors it over all others, as well as health care that isn't in the hands of that organization.
Collectivism is the only way. human beings are collective by nature. Why? Notice when you're in a group, do you act like a jerk if you dont need them? Most people dont. Social responsibility.
Individualism is the only way. Human beings are individuals by nature. Why? Notice when you're alone you can think for yourself and choose to either join a collective or create one of your own. Most people do, thus creating the concept of social responsibility. Collectives require individuals, thus individuals are superior to collectives.
I've never heard a good argument stating that we are entitled to property. Everything we own is a result of many people, without them it cannot exist, and without them it cannot have value. Most libertarians say we are entitled to our property in one breathe, and then claim to support a police force and military based upon taxation. It seems libertarians dont care about property rights... They claim that if we dont provide these things that life would be worse. This proves two things.
I've never heard a good argument stating that we aren't entitled to property. Everything we own is a result of many people who willingly sell us, through some middleman, the products of their labor. Most Communists say we are not entitled to our property in one breath and in the next claim to not support a police force and military that would enforce such a doctrine. It seems Communists don't care about individual rights. They claim that if we don't provide these things that life would be worse, despite the fact that there has never been a successful, industrial Communist nation. This proves two things:
1) The government is good at providing things
1. The government is bad at providing things like food and health care to people in a fair measure.
2) You dont actually believe in property rights.
2. You don't actually believe in individual rights.
Conclusion: Why not provide more services? Since you dont believe in full-on property rights and believe that some wealth belongs to everyone. The Richest people in the world are respected by libertarians, but they can only make their profits with a functioning government, which requires all of us. Its selfish to think they deserve more of the pie than others do because they NEED the rest of society. Society made it POSSIBLE for them to be rich in the first place.
Conclusion: Why not stay out of the service industries? Since you don't believe in full-on individual rights and believe that wealth belongs to everyone. The poorest people in the world are respected by Communists, because it is from the poorest people that Communists gain their power and are able to parlay that power into a dysfunctional government that caters to some minority. It is selfish to think that they deserve more of the pie than others do because they NEED the rest of society. Society made it POSSIBLE for them to be powerful in the first place.
tycoonmike
For my own personal piece, though, you've fallen into the naivete of Communism, that being that all people would work for the betterment of society if they could. The end result of the society you describe could be summarized in one sentence:
All animals are created equal, but some are created more equal than others.
Human nature, being derived from the animal instinct, is enough to destroy such a society within a century so long as it industrializes. The collapse of the Soviet Union should be proof enough of that. The only way such a society could exist is if it were to go back in time about two centuries, before the advent of industrial technique. If it were to do that, though, it would very quickly be destroyed by its neighbors unless they were also at such a technologically backwards point.
Thats not really communism. Acknowledging that you owe a debt to society is not communism. The Soviet Union wasnt communist. They claimed to be socialist (hell, its in the name) but most socialists wouldnt recognize what they did as socialism[QUOTE="shinian"]Sorry but communism looks only ok'ay on paper.kemar7856communism could work in theory if the leader is not corrupt communism wouldnt have leaders
[QUOTE="shinian"]Sorry but communism looks only ok'ay on paper.kemar7856communism could work in theory if the leader is not corrupt It was also not supposed to be run by a vicious and war-mongering dictator. Unfortunately, the largest examples of [so-called] Communism so far have been lead by such.
I can barely break even. Tell you what, if you can afford to pay more taxes, then you should be allowed to, but if you're struggling, you should pay less. Only fair in my eyes.JustPlainLucasThat's how it is in Canada. The amount you pay per month for medical coverage is dependant on the amount you bring in. I pay $54 per month. My roommate pays nothing.
[QUOTE="kemar7856"][QUOTE="shinian"]Sorry but communism looks only ok'ay on paper.Engrish_Majorcommunism could work in theory if the leader is not corrupt It was also not supposed to be run by a vicious and war-mongering dictator. Unfortunately, the largest examples of [so-called] Communism so far have been lead by such. naturally I think it would never work either way for eg. why should everyone get paid the same if one person does more work then the other
To all people arguing that you deserve your money because you worked hard for it, that is not entirely true. If it weren't for government programs already funded by taxes you wouldn't have the opportunity to do what you accomplished. If there was no FDA regulating food and drugs it is likely you might have died early on, if it weren't for tax payer funded public education it is unlikely you would have had any opportunity to move on, if it weren't for tax payer funded police,fire departments, military, etc. you get the point. The thing is that it is not entirely because of your labor that you obtained your wealth and i do agree that people are entitled to the money that they earned but the thing is that if it weren't for the people of the country collectively pitching in together and creating these programs no one would have had the opportunity to go and do what caused them to obtain that wealth and because of this the people living within society owe it to keep these programs going and expand on them where necessary (like health insurance).Former_SlackerWe already pay for all of those things and more. I don't think anyone is arguing that you should pay NO taxes.
[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="mattbbpl"] CEO pay is a little outrageous right now, but it is largely a function of rising to the top through personal investment, working hard, and taking on personal risk. Should a cashier make as much as a database administrator? Should a database administrator make as much as a doctor? Should a doctor make as much as Bill Gates?DemocratikNo. I never said that they should. However, the gap between what wealthy and non-wealthy people are making has widened dramatically in the past couple of decades. And it has nothing to do with how hard people work. I for one, definitely think the taxes on the wealthy should return to pre-Reagan years Just a simple return to the Reagan years would be a good increase.
naturally I think it would never work either way for eg. why should everyone get paid the same if one person does more work then the other kemar7856At the most extreme extent, I do agree with that. I don't believe that everyone should get paid the same. My angle is that the government is the buffer between the population and corporations, and helps to ensure that everyone at least gets equal opportunity to earn at a high level.
[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="kemar7856"] communism could work in theory if the leader is not corrupt kemar7856It was also not supposed to be run by a vicious and war-mongering dictator. Unfortunately, the largest examples of [so-called] Communism so far have been lead by such. naturally I think it would never work either way for eg. why should everyone get paid the same if one person does more work then the other Exactly. Why would I want to become a doctor under such conditions? I'd much rather be a mindless peion with no stress under such a condition. Even as a doctor, would I have stress? What motive would I have for working harder so I made no mistakes? The prospect of moving into a higher position with even more stress and the same pay?
I think that's fair. The issue I have is when people want more services, but don't want to pay the resulting fees for that service. I mean, I would vote for more perks for myself if I didnt have to pay for any of it either. I think there is a large amount of moral hazard in shifting the responsibility for said services unto a group other than yourself. Certainly people that make more can pay more, but everyone should be vested in those services.
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