If god doesen't exist that what diffrence will it make if I kill, rape or rob.

I mean why? It doesn't matter anyway I mean if I don't get caught I can enjoy raping, robbing, and killing. It won't matter when I die becasue I will be gone. You might think it is wrong but how? Morality is man made from religion. There is no righ and wrong. -Dark-Rain-

When your caught and crying in your cell as mr. "giggles" shows you why he couldnt have dolls as a child you might reconsider your notion that there is no right or wrong.

[QUOTE="-Dark-Rain-"]

Where did most morality come out of? Religion. Most of the moral things. The us is 93 % cCristian and Europe is 89 %

Enosh88

and religion says it's o.k. to have slaves.

so why don't we have slaves anymore? It's moraly o.k. by your standarts

Hmm my friend U.S. has one of the highest rape/murder/theft stats in the world, and its majorly Christian. Europe has a higher population of atheists and doesn't score that high with the U.S. in the previous regards...people like you make humanity look like ****. I'd say more but i'd get banned

I mean why? It doesn't matter anyway I mean if I don't get caught I can enjoy raping, robbing, and killing. It won't matter when I die becasue I will be gone. You might think it is wrong but how? Morality is man made from religion. There is no righ and wrong. -Dark-Rain-

It matters while you're alive. Take morality out of the picture, and tell me if it you would approve of someone robbing, raping and murdering your mother...from an ethical standpoint. How would these acts benefit society? Would this make your life happier and better?

[QUOTE="Enosh88"][QUOTE="-Dark-Rain-"]

Where did most morality come out of? Religion. Most of the moral things. The us is 93 % cCristian and Europe is 89 %

ab-1205

and religion says it's o.k. to have slaves.

so why don't we have slaves anymore? It's moraly o.k. by your standarts

Hmm my friend U.S. has one of the highest rape/murder/theft stats in the world, and its majorly Christian. Europe has a higher population of atheists and doesn't score that high with the U.S. in the previous regards...people like you make humanity look like ****.

Does the U.S. have more rape/murder/theft because it is Christian, or is it majority Christian because of rape/murder/theft, or are the two completely irrelevant?

Correlation =/= causation, a point you don't seem to get.

I'd say more but i'd get banned

You have experience with that, don't ya?

If the idea of an imaginary man in the clouds is the only thing stopping you from murdering and raping innocent people, you need help.

I don't believe in God in the slightest, and yet I have very strong morals. But why would I be good to people, if not because a Sky Man is gonna judge me? Because there are benefits. By doing good for other people, I feel good, they feel good, everybody wins. There are so many non-religious reasons to be moral, it makes it disturbing how people like you exist.

What? -_- seriously now........

You don't need God to have a sense of morality....It's what we live by society (or in a greater sense, humanity), not religion.

What? -_- seriously now........

You don't need God to have a sense of morality....It's what we live by society (or in a greater sense, humanity), not religion.

martialbullet

Exactly. We don't need religion for morals, we can figure this **** out on our own.

Also, saying morals come from religion is, in itself, extremely faulty. Like I said, I'm not only capable, but willing, to do good, and I don't believe in God. But now let's look at the other side of the spectrum. Yes, there are good religious people, no doubt. But there are also bad ones, and it's not a simple "He's religious, he's bad, ergo, religion makes you bad". Religion (including Christianity) has been the direct cause of people doing insanely immoral things "in the name of God". Read the Bible. Read the Koran. Those both condone violence, and as such, throughout history, many people have acted upon it, and many people have died gruesome deaths as a result of it.

It'd be wrong to say there's no correlation between a person's religion and a person's morals, but for the people who are good, they can be good without religion; however, for the people who act violently because of religion, truly nothing else could've made them do it. When a book, hundreds of years old, can make otherwise sane, perfectly normal people living perfectly normal lives blow themselves up, and fly planes into buildings...it's just not the kind of thing anyone would ever otherwise do.

[QUOTE="fmacraze"]

My faith in humanity has just been driven further down the negative mark. Thank you.

Darth-Caedus

Ya, I blame the ones who think they ca do what ever they want to this planet.

They're IRRELEVANT, however the guy I quoted said "where did most morality come out of? religon. the US is 93% christian"

Also, saying morals come from religion is, in itself, extremely faulty.

Crypto138

True. Religious people always think that society got it's morals from religion and/or the bible, but what they never seem to realize is that people were moral before the bible was even written. So it didn't come from that. The morals people had before the bible was written, in fact, probably went into the bible. It's not like there were no morals until magical God man blessed the minds of the biblical authors with the idea of what morals are.

Because societies have laws as well.....and because self control differentiates us from animals.LJS9502_basic

What about the moose speed signs?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Because societies have laws as well.....and because self control differentiates us from animals.yabbicoke

What about the moose speed signs?

Because societies have laws as well.....and because self control differentiates us from animals.LJS9502_basic

Some animals have self control, and some humans don't.

[QUOTE="yabbicoke"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Because societies have laws as well.....and because self control differentiates us from animals.LJS9502_basic

What about the moose speed signs?

This is what happens if you don't follow the moose sign, don't think animals are easy to smash.

I mean why? It doesn't matter anyway I mean if I don't get caught I can enjoy raping, robbing, and killing. It won't matter when I die becasue I will be gone. You might think it is wrong but how? Morality is man made from religion. There is no righ and wrong. -Dark-Rain-

This is silly. We humans as intelligent, rational creatures have figured out that if you're going to harm others through raping, robbing and killing etc that people are just as likely to do it back to you. Contrarily, some people find no enjoyment in committing such acts (such as myself).If we allowed others to do such things it would be severe detriment to the health and safety of oneself, to others and our society as a whole. Thus each society throughout history has formulated its own morals and laws to maintain order and continue its survival.

Your idea that morality comes from religion is juvenile. Just by observing nature, we can see that animals don't kill in cold blood, they don't rape or steal from others. (Granted, they may kill or steal to maintain their survival but that's a whole other argument). I think it would be more rational to argue that all humans have innate sense of morality regardless of religion. One could also subscribe to the idea of humanism, that we as an intelligent species decide our own destiny and law and order is one such way to achieve greater things. Furthermore, I'd like to see proof that morality is derived from religion. I myself am agnostic atheist and I believe in treating others as you wish to be treated and any such act that harms another person is wrong. I don't need a God to tell me this, I know it's wrong by the logical conclusion that I would not want those things done to me.

However, you seem to imply that you would commit such acts if it weren't for religion, which I think is a deplorable idea if you can't exhibit self discipline and respect towards other people. "It doesn't matter anyway I mean if I don't get caught I can enjoy raping, robbing, and killing. It won't matter when I die becasue I will be gone.".

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Because societies have laws as well.....and because self control differentiates us from animals.Persecuted_1

Some animals have self control, and some humans don't.

[QUOTE="Persecuted_1"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Because societies have laws as well.....and because self control differentiates us from animals.LJS9502_basic

Some animals have self control, and some humans don't.

I felt like if everyone knows that I'm P1 anyway, I might as well use it. I like the avatar better.

My cat has self control. She only comes out when it's completely safe, and not a second sooner. She's very crafty, and has been known to snag entire drumsticks off of a chicken when nobody is looking. We turn around, and it's like, ummm, where did the leg go? We walk around the corner and see the cat chowing down on her feast. :lol: Beleive me man, she's very smart, and very much in control of how she's seen, when she's seen, and how much evidence she leaves behind of her various mischevious capers.

Some humans don't have self control. It's been proven that serial killers lack a certain part of the brain that would tell them to put on the brakes.

I felt like if everyone knows that I'm P1 anyway, I might as well use it. I like the avatar better.

My cat has self control. She only comes out when it's completely safe, and not a second sooner. She's very crafty, and has been known to snag entire drumsticks off of a chicken when nobody is looking. We turn around, and it's like, ummm, where did the leg go? We walk around the corner and see the cat chowing down on her feast. :lol: Beleive me man, she's very smart, and very much in control of how she's seen, when she's seen, and how much evidence she leaves behind of her various mischevious capers.

Some humans don't have self control. It's been proven that serial killers lack a certain part of the brain that would tell them to put on the brakes.

Persecuted_1

Because societies have laws as well.....and because self control differentiates us from animals.LJS9502_basic

We are smart animals, we aren't different.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Because societies have laws as well.....and because self control differentiates us from animals.MindFreeze

We are smart animals, we aren't different.

[QUOTE="Persecuted_1"]

I felt like if everyone knows that I'm P1 anyway, I might as well use it. I like the avatar better.

My cat has self control. She only comes out when it's completely safe, and not a second sooner. She's very crafty, and has been known to snag entire drumsticks off of a chicken when nobody is looking. We turn around, and it's like, ummm, where did the leg go? We walk around the corner and see the cat chowing down on her feast. :lol: Beleive me man, she's very smart, and very much in control of how she's seen, when she's seen, and how much evidence she leaves behind of her various mischevious capers.

Some humans don't have self control. It's been proven that serial killers lack a certain part of the brain that would tell them to put on the brakes.

LJS9502_basic

Well then everything we do is just instinct then, and not self control. Maybe that was a bad example. One time my cat was running across the street and a car was coming. She heard it, turned around and ran back until it was safe to cross. Instinct? Ok, maybe. How about this? At times when we feed her, she doesn't eat the entire portion. She'll eat maybe half, then leave. She'll come back and finish an hour or two later. You might say that's instinct too, but if a human were to do the same, wouldn't you call it self control, for a person to stop themselves from abusing the food if they're not hungry, stop eating, and come back to it later when hungry again?

Well then everything we do is just instinct then, and not self control. Maybe that was a bad example. One time my cat was running across the street and a car was coming. She heard it, turned around and ran back until it was safe to cross. Instinct? Ok, maybe. How about this? At times when we feed her, she doesn't eat the entire portion. She'll eat maybe half, then leave. She'll come back and finish an hour or two later. You might say that's instinct too, but if a human were to do the same, wouldn't you call it self control, for a person to stop themselves from abusing the food if they're not hungry, stop eating, and come back to it later when hungry again?

Persecuted_1

It is not in human nature to do bad or good, it is the change in human behavior which allows such things to happen. As time has gone on, so has our human behavior changed.

Christianity came, and many lives were lost because of religious oppression and warfare. Heck...

Illiad > Bible, why? Because it's a more exciting piece of fiction. Mind you, both have some historical accuracies, duh. Both also are full of fantasy tales.

I mean why? It doesn't matter anyway I mean if I don't get caught I can enjoy raping, robbing, and killing. It won't matter when I die becasue I will be gone. You might think it is wrong but how? Morality is man made from religion. There is no righ and wrong. -Dark-Rain-

That just might of topped my list of the most utterly stupid thing that someone has said over the internet, please just bash your head repeatingly with heavy mining equipment.

I mean why? It doesn't matter anyway I mean if I don't get caught I can enjoy raping, robbing, and killing. It won't matter when I die because I will be gone. You might think it is wrong but how? Morality is man made from religion. There is no righ and wrong. -Dark-Rain-

You can live in this barrier. Life is a obstacle, religion is a strategy. But its ultimately control, unless of course, you don't mind or you don't know. I think people who truly believe in religion, are genuine and innocent like children.

I don't think you would have the guts to rape, rob, or kill even if God was proven to you that He certainly doesn't exist. For you to do that, you would have to transform in life, kind of like being reborn in a Christian sense but for a different cause.

Morality, its so simple. Humans percieve reality through their own lenses, senses, changes. Emotion manifests thought, thoughts manifest words, actions and reality. Right or wrong, call it what you want, it is what it is. Kind of like now, how your percieving your ideal idea of what morality is, yet your whole theme is wrong. But its not your fault, your just learning. Let me correct you, so you can look through your eyes again, heighten your senses, and change your perception of things.

Morality is man made but it is in man. Religion comes from man where morality can be found. Look around the world and you can find moraility in other texts, scripts, scribes of ancient documents before the new testament even spread around. Its difficult to say where or how it came to be, but as our brains got bigger we endured changes. In Darwinian terms, It could have helped make tribes communicate and help each other because they lived together and woud cross each other again.

Man and higher animals like primates have instincts in common. Same senses, intuitions, sensations, passions, emotions. Even the more complex ones such as jealousy, curiosity, suspicion.

I mean why? It doesn't matter anyway I mean if I don't get caught I can enjoy raping, robbing, and killing. It won't matter when I die becasue I will be gone. You might think it is wrong but how? Morality is man made from religion. There is no righ and wrong. -Dark-Rain-

That doesn't man that man suddenly has no value (in terms of morals or the value of someones life). Wrong is wrong, religiously inspired, controlled and valued or not.

This is one argument I hate that (stupid) theists bring up. They think that, somehow, athiests live their lives with no morals, that without God "anything goes." Simply not the case. Morals have, and always will be, governed by man, and inspired by God. Or something like that.

That was just sad....

Religion is the only thing that keeps you from doing bad things? Really?

That was....oh man...I can't even....nvm, no comment.

That was just sad....

Religion is the only thing that keeps you from doing bad things? Really?

That was....oh man...I can't even....nvm, no comment.

dann14v

No. Obviosly not. But there are too many god does not exist threads so I had to do something.

That was just sad....

Religion is the only thing that keeps you from doing bad things? Really?

That was....oh man...I can't even....nvm, no comment.

dann14v

No. Obviosly not. But there are too many god does not exist threads so I had to do something.

-Dark-Rain-

No offense, but if you're trying to prove the existence of God, the moral argument is probably one the weakest arguments out there.

[QUOTE="-Dark-Rain-"]

No. Obviosly not. But there are too many god does not exist threads so I had to do something.

GabuEx

No offense, but if you're trying to prove the existence of God, the moral argument is probably one the weakest arguments out there.

[QUOTE="dann14v"]

That was just sad....

Religion is the only thing that keeps you from doing bad things? Really?

That was....oh man...I can't even....nvm, no comment.

lovesPR

God isn't even human though.

GabuEx, I didn't see your discussion in the other thread, but I want to ask are you a moral objectivist (someone who expresses belief that some things ARE evil even if everyone thought that they were right) or a moral subjectivist (someone who denies the properly basic belief that ethical duties are real)?lovesPR

Well, on one hand, I can't see any real way to objectively state that action X is "evil" in a vacuum - to even make that statement, one must have a definition for the word "evil", and I think it would be rather hard to get a definition that everyone would agree on. But, on the other hand when someone says that it's evil, what they generally mean is that the action is generally detrimental to the well-being of the human race, and going by that definition I think it's fairly clear that there are many things that are certainly evil.

I think that morals are, on the whole, something dictated by the general public and something that does not exist univerally, but that doesn't mean that following them is a bad thing, based on the way in which most people intuitively define "evil".

So, in short, I refuse to pigeonhole myself into a dumb label. :P Make of the above how you will.

well outside of God there is no way to give a basis for morality.lovesPR

Exactly, we should rely on God to determine whether we should engage in wars on the basis of false information, as Bush did.

Humans see religion and say the product of religion is Morality, but this is not true.

Morality is a survival tool, it has nothing to do with religion. IT has everything to do with culture, the greatest evolutionary development of humanity. You do know what culture is right? The invisible laws that guide every society on the face of the planet, and why does every society function under these invisible laws? Survival. If raping, killing, and robbing supported a higher species survival rate than they would be considered moral. But since they don't majority of the time, they are immoral, but special circumstances do make them morally acceptable. Such as starvation, environmental circumstances, etc.

HUMAN REASONING IS NOT ABSOLUTE. Nature is bigger than us.. we try to explain a lot of things, that doesn't mean we understand them.

Anyways, I doubt you'll read this, because what you wrote tells me you're probably a fairly young individual who really doesn't know where they fit in the world yet. You see two choices, religion, or no religion. But life is so much bigger than that.

Fact is human perspective is much more limited than most of us are aware of. I just understand one concept a lot of people don't get . Nature is bigger than the human mind. And nature whether we can explain it's reasoning or not, has it's own way of doing things. Humans are incapable of explaining and understanding everything because we can only think one way, and that's within the human genetic code. Everything is limited and restricted by genetics. IT can only reach so high. Even a genius human mind is still a human mind.

Morality gives humans the best chances of survival. Morality changes depending on circumstances. Not everyone is a moral person. For example, if you run around doing what you suggest, you'd be eliminated because you're an inferior human, decreasing our survival rate. Even if you reproduce, through rape, or other means, and your off spring displays the same behavior they too would be eliminated. Because it's an inferior method of survival. Pretty simple, really.

Now if you actualy read this I'll be shocked.

Humans see religion and say the product of religion is Morality, but this is not true.

Morality is a survival tool, it has nothing to do with religion. IT has everything to do with culture, the greatest evolutionary development of humanity. You do know what culture is right? The invisible laws that guide every society on the face of the planet, and why does every society function under these invisible laws? Survival. If raping, killing, and robbing supported a higher species survival rate than they would be considered moral. But since they don't majority of the time, they are immoral, but special circumstances do make them morally acceptable. Such as starvation, environmental circumstances, etc.

HUMAN REASONING IS NOT ABSOLUTE. Nature is bigger than us.. we try to explain a lot of things, that doesn't mean we understand them.

Anyways, I doubt you'll read this, because what you wrote tells me you're probably a fairly young individual who really doesn't know where they fit in the world yet. You see two choices, religion, or no religion. But life is so much bigger than that.

Fact is human perspective is much more limited than most of us are aware of. I just understand one concept a lot of people don't get . Nature is bigger than the human mind. And nature whether we can explain it's reasoning or not, has it's own way of doing things. Humans are incapable of explaining and understanding everything because we can only think one way, and that's within the human genetic code. Everything is limited and restricted by genetics. IT can only reach so high. Even a genius human mind is still a human mind.

Morality gives humans the best chances of survival. Morality changes depending on circumstances. Not everyone is a moral person. For example, if you run around doing what you suggest, you'd be eliminated because you're an inferior human, decreasing our survival rate. Even if you reproduce, through rape, or other means, and your off spring displays the same behavior they too would be eliminated. Because it's an inferior method of survival. Pretty simple, really.

Now if you actualy read this I'll be shocked.

EMOEVOLUTION

Who are you talking too? Yourself?

[QUOTE="lovesPR"]well outside of God there is no way to give a basis for morality.Genetic_Code

Exactly, we should rely on God to determine whether we should engage in wars on the basis of false information, .

[QUOTE="lovesPR"]GabuEx, I didn't see your discussion in the other thread, but I want to ask are you a moral objectivist (someone who expresses belief that some things ARE evil even if everyone thought that they were right) or a moral subjectivist (someone who denies the properly basic belief that ethical duties are real)?GabuEx

Well, on one hand, I can't see any real way to objectively state that action X is "evil" in a vacuum - to even make that statement, one must have a definition for the word "evil", and I think it would be rather hard to get a definition that everyone would agree on. But, on the other hand when someone says that it's evil, what they generally mean is that the action is generally detrimental to the well-being of the human race, and going by that definition I think it's fairly clear that there are many things that are certainly evil.

I think that morals are, on the whole, something dictated by the general public and something that does not exist univerally, but that doesn't mean that following them is a bad thing, based on the way in which most people intuitively define "evil".

So, in short, I refuse to pigeonhole myself into a dumb label. :P Make of the above how you will.

wow. way to completely dodge my point. lovesPR

Et tu.

Bush sought God for a basis of morality when determining whether to wage war. You suggest that we have to have God in order to have a basis of morality. One could make the argument that Bush had no basis of morality. Failure to attack this makes it stand by default.

Strike 1.

I mean why? It doesn't matter anyway I mean if I don't get caught I can enjoy raping, robbing, and killing. It won't matter when I die becasue I will be gone. You might think it is wrong but how? Morality is man made from religion. There is no righ and wrong. -Dark-Rain-

If you don't care if you live or die, be my guest. Rape my mother, rob me, and kill my uncle. But I have a good feeling that you like living.

[QUOTE="lovesPR"]

wow. way to completely dodge my point. Genetic_Code

Et tu.

Bush sought God for a basis of morality when determining whether to wage war. You suggest that we have to have God in order to have a basis of morality. One could make the argument that Bush had no basis of morality. Failure to attack this makes it stand by default.