If I didn't know about Christianity why would you tell me?

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="tocool340"]Not that I don't like it, I think there's one too many threads about christians floating around..... They do it in an attempt to "save people", though they do it in a way, IMO, that is as annoying and pesky as a mosquito flying in my ear. It's unwanted, yet, they continue. Got to admire their stubbornness though because they refuse to give up. I just wish they would stop forcing kids to see their views and brainwashing people into believing that what's not explainable is the work of God. There are tons of things I can list that I dislike about christians, but those two things are the ones that really stick out to me....jalexbrown

I don't see why all of christianity is taking the rap for what I believe to be, the doings of the seven day adventist since I mostly know them to be the ones floating around door to door.

I can assume its the Gideons. I've never met one that forceful. They will hand it to you, and if you say no thats fine. I mean in the same way when I walk through my college I get condoms handed to me all the time even though I abstain, I just say no thank you and move on. Now if your gideons are forceful and talk about it even after you have expressed disinterest, then thats a bummer. Though I have never witnessed them doing that.

Mankind has many flaws. No matter how bad my life may turn out to be, I'd honestly die happy if I saw religion die out in my lifetime.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"] Then I doubt you believe in the bible either, it is riddled with contradictions.jalexbrown

I don't hence why I said I don't take their word as his word. There are so many contradictions that it's not funny, but I have my own reasons for believing in god and jesus.

Because within all the contradictions the existence Jesus is the one thing that we can all agree is factual.

Because you can't plead ignorant when you're being judged? I'm not sure on the exact ruling of this, but basically you can't be saved unless you've accepted Jesus as your savior, regardless of whether you were aware of God or not.

jubino

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

I don't see why all of christianity is taking the rap for what I believe to be, the doings of the seven day adventist since I mostly know them to be the ones floating around door to door.

Ravirr

I can assume its the Gideons. I've never met one that forceful. They will hand it to you, and if you say no thats fine. I mean in the same way when I walk through my college I get condoms handed to me all the time even though I abstain, I just say no thank you and move on. Now if your gideons are forceful and talk about it even after you have expressed disinterest, then thats a bummer. Though I have never witnessed them doing that.

[QUOTE="jubino"]

Because you can't plead ignorant when you're being judged? I'm not sure on the exact ruling of this, but basically you can't be saved unless you've accepted Jesus as your savior, regardless of whether you were aware of God or not.

SteveTabernacle

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

I don't hence why I said I don't take their word as his word. There are so many contradictions that it's not funny, but I have my own reasons for believing in god and jesus.

Espada12

Because within all the contradictions the existence Jesus is the one thing that we can all agree is factual.

[QUOTE="Ravirr"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] Do you care to guess which branch of Christianity has shown up at my college campus on at least four different occasions without permission handing out Bibles and preaching to passer-bys that expressed no interest?jalexbrown

I can assume its the Gideons. I've never met one that forceful. They will hand it to you, and if you say no thats fine. I mean in the same way when I walk through my college I get condoms handed to me all the time even though I abstain, I just say no thank you and move on. Now if your gideons are forceful and talk about it even after you have expressed disinterest, then thats a bummer. Though I have never witnessed them doing that.

Ah say no more. Baptists tend to be probably the most aggressive of the protestant groups. Which is a bummer. Even as a christian myself, I've always found talking to people about these things tends to do more harm than good in the long run.

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"][QUOTE="jubino"]

Because you can't plead ignorant when you're being judged? I'm not sure on the exact ruling of this, but basically you can't be saved unless you've accepted Jesus as your savior, regardless of whether you were aware of God or not.

jubino

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"][QUOTE="jubino"]

Because you can't plead ignorant when you're being judged? I'm not sure on the exact ruling of this, but basically you can't be saved unless you've accepted Jesus as your savior, regardless of whether you were aware of God or not.

jubino

You do know baptism is a christian-only practise, right? There is no such thing as baptism or godparents for children born in other religions...

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="Ravirr"]

I can assume its the Gideons. I've never met one that forceful. They will hand it to you, and if you say no thats fine. I mean in the same way when I walk through my college I get condoms handed to me all the time even though I abstain, I just say no thank you and move on. Now if your gideons are forceful and talk about it even after you have expressed disinterest, then thats a bummer. Though I have never witnessed them doing that.

Ravirr

Ah say no more. Baptists tend to be probably the most aggressive of the protestant groups. Which is a bummer. Even as a christian myself, I've always found talking to people about these things tends to do more harm than good in the long run.

[QUOTE="jubino"][QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"] Which would mean babies and children who die before the age of reason who die go to hell, and God throws people to hell for being born int he wrong place, despite the fact the he is the one who put them there since he would have been the one who made them, which would mean they never had free will to choose heaven or hell, which casts God in an extremely negative light, one that is decidedly unloving.jalexbrown

Well, lets see, if the medical field sees a baby at 20 weeks as a viable birth, that means you'll have to have a priest spinkle holy water on your cervix and hope it gets to the baby after the 20 week period. Its the only sensible solution :P

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"] Hell is a part of the package. It's an undeniable part of the "real" Christianity.SteveTabernacle

This is wrong because there are denominations of Christianity that don't believe in hell.

You're forgetting about baptism. That's why they have a godfather and godmother, two people that can vouch for the child and have it blessed. Therefore, they are saved until the child is old enough to make that decision for themselves, which then they're asked to do a confirmation. You assume too much.jubino

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

This is wrong because there are denominations of Christianity that don't believe in hell.

_rock_

[QUOTE="Ravirr"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] They were actually Baptists. But for some reason the Baptists in my area tend to be overly aggressive in general. I remember my mom and I going to the mall once, and we were accosted on the way out to the car; these two Baptists came up and started preaching to us, walked with us out to our car, and then stood there for live five minutes after we'd already gotten in the car standing so that we couldn't get out without listening to them. We told this couple twenty different times that we were Jewish and not interested, but they just wouldn't hear such things. They were Baptists too - perhaps the same branch that shows up at my college.jalexbrown

Ah say no more. Baptists tend to be probably the most aggressive of the protestant groups. Which is a bummer. Even as a christian myself, I've always found talking to people about these things tends to do more harm than good in the long run.

From my discussions. Many see it as saving people from hell. Sharing news that could potientally change a life. Its the ultimate act of kindness basically, a rescueing hand from a twisted fate. But I donno, people have to want to know about it before it will have any affect. AS for converting other religions, I have no idea. Makes for a good story on sunday when you can say, Omg this Jewish guy became christian. Then everyone says amen ,nods and says yep ours is right.

I guess I just tend to follow that faith is a personal thing. I try to live my life according to the book and if someone sees me as special or unique then they can ask me about it. I try to openly talk about it to people who show no interest or dis interest. But everyone is different.

What about miscarriages? Babies that die during labor and don't get to be baptized?jalexbrown

[QUOTE="_rock_"][QUOTE="Gunslinger_1988"] No, it's not equal you're forcing someone to believe what you believe and if they don't they will be tortured, burned, and suffer. You are condeming people by telling them about Christianity.Gunslinger_1988

From my discussions. Many see it as saving people from hell. Sharing news that could potientally change a life. Its the ultimate act of kindness basically, a rescueing hand from a twisted fate. But I donno, people have to want to know about it before it will have any affect. AS for converting other religions, I have no idea. Makes for a good story on sunday when you can say, Omg this Jewish guy became christian. Then everyone says amen ,nods and says yep ours is right.

I guess I just tend to follow that faith is a personal thing. I try to live my life according to the book and if someone sees me as special or unique then they can ask me about it. I try to openly talk about it to people who show no interest or dis interest. But everyone is different.

Ravirr

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"] Hell is a part of the package. It's an undeniable part of the "real" Christianity.SteveTabernacle

This is wrong because there are denominations of Christianity that don't believe in hell.

Sort of. Depending on which English Bible you pick out, there can be anywhere between four to zero Greek or Hebrew words that have been translated into the singular English word "hell". Those are the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. And yes, "zero" is not a typo; there are Bibles out there that do not include the word "hell" at any point from cover to cover.

[QUOTE="Ravirr"]

From my discussions. Many see it as saving people from hell. Sharing news that could potientally change a life. Its the ultimate act of kindness basically, a rescueing hand from a twisted fate. But I donno, people have to want to know about it before it will have any affect. AS for converting other religions, I have no idea. Makes for a good story on sunday when you can say, Omg this Jewish guy became christian. Then everyone says amen ,nods and says yep ours is right.

I guess I just tend to follow that faith is a personal thing. I try to live my life according to the book and if someone sees me as special or unique then they can ask me about it. I try to openly talk about it to people who show no interest or dis interest. But everyone is different.

jalexbrown

That is probably why the jewish faith doesn't. But the local baptist church in my area does do its monthly fire and brime stone sermon, followed by the 20 minutes of Jesus is awesome come chill with him. ( I don't like this church but my whole family goes there sadly) . Its a rather poor approach to things IMO. Rather than talking about tough issues that non christians may be struggling with its just a whole appeal to emotion bit. Eh, its lame. But Baptists are very strong on converting people to save them from this firey death. Where judism has a different set of beliefs that governs there actions.

[QUOTE="_rock_"][QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"] Then they aren't Christians. Jesus spoke directly of hell. You either accept all his teachings, or none. You can't cherry pick.jalexbrown

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

This is wrong because there are denominations of Christianity that don't believe in hell.

GabuEx

Sort of. Depending on which English Bible you pick out, there can be anywhere between four to zero Greek or Hebrew words that have been translated into the singular English word "hell". Those are the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. And yes, "zero" is not a misprint; there are Bibles out there that do not include the word "hell" at any point from cover to cover.

Because you can't plead ignorant when you're being judged? I'm not sure on the exact ruling of this, but basically you can't be saved unless you've accepted Jesus as your savior, regardless of whether you were aware of God or not.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"]

[QUOTE="_rock_"]This is correct and hell is apart of it. But Jesus didn't come to this earth to condemn and send to hell, He preached on the love of God and how there is away to heaven though Jesus. _rock_

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="Ravirr"]

From my discussions. Many see it as saving people from hell. Sharing news that could potientally change a life. Its the ultimate act of kindness basically, a rescueing hand from a twisted fate. But I donno, people have to want to know about it before it will have any affect. AS for converting other religions, I have no idea. Makes for a good story on sunday when you can say, Omg this Jewish guy became christian. Then everyone says amen ,nods and says yep ours is right.

I guess I just tend to follow that faith is a personal thing. I try to live my life according to the book and if someone sees me as special or unique then they can ask me about it. I try to openly talk about it to people who show no interest or dis interest. But everyone is different.

Ravirr

That is probably why the jewish faith doesn't. But the local baptist church in my area does do its monthly fire and brime stone sermon, followed by the 20 minutes of Jesus is awesome come chill with him. ( I don't like this church but my whole family goes there sadly) . Its a rather poor approach to things IMO. Rather than talking about tough issues that non christians may be struggling with its just a whole appeal to emotion bit. Eh, its lame. But Baptists are very strong on converting people to save them from this firey death. Where judism has a different set of beliefs that governs there actions.

Technically Sheol only loosely translates to hell, and it carries an entirely different concept with it - at least amongst Jews, anyways.jalexbrown

I would go a bit further and say that untechnically Sheol doesn't translate to hell in any way, shape, or form. :P None of the modern Bibles translate it as such; only the King James Version does. And since Hades is basically the Greek equivalent of Sheol, none of the modern Bibles translate it into "hell" either (except for the New International Version, which just could not resist attempting to force the concept of hell onto the parable of the rich man and Lazarus).

Which means that, if indeed hell does exist, God seemed to neglect to mention it at all for thousands of years... which strikes me as a bit curious.

Sort of. Depending on which English Bible you pick out, there can be anywhere between four to zero Greek or Hebrew words that have been translated into the singular English word "hell". Those are the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. And yes, "zero" is not a typo; there are Bibles out there that do not include the word "hell" at any point from cover to cover.

GabuEx

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]Sort of. Depending on which English Bible you pick out, there can be anywhere between four to zero Greek or Hebrew words that have been translated into the singular English word "hell". Those are the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. And yes, "zero" is not a typo; there are Bibles out there that do not include the word "hell" at any point from cover to cover.

SteveTabernacle

Well, this is why I always say that if you really want to understand it, you need to go to the original languages. Even the best English translations do not sufficiently render important subtleties in the original languages, such as the difference between kolasis and timoria, two Greek words that both refer to punishment, but are differentiated by the first one meaning corrective punishment and the second meaning vengeful punishment.

(Bonus points for guessing which one is used in reference to the punishment that those receive who die in sin.)

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"]Technically Sheol only loosely translates to hell, and it carries an entirely different concept with it - at least amongst Jews, anyways.GabuEx

I would go a bit further and say that untechnically Sheol doesn't translate to hell in any way, shape, or form. :P None of the modern Bibles translate it as such; only the King James Version does.

Which means that, if indeed hell does exist, God seemed to neglect to mention it at all for thousands of years... which strikes me as a bit curious.

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]Sort of. Depending on which English Bible you pick out, there can be anywhere between four to zero Greek or Hebrew words that have been translated into the singular English word "hell". Those are the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. And yes, "zero" is not a typo; there are Bibles out there that do not include the word "hell" at any point from cover to cover.

GabuEx

Well, this is why I always say that if you really want to understand it, you need to go to the original languages. Even the best English translations do not sufficiently render important subtleties in the original languages, such as the difference between kolasis and timoria, two Greek words that both refer to punishment, but are differentiated by the first one meaning corrective punishment and the second meaning vengeful punishment.

(Bonus points for guessing which one is used in reference to the punishment that those receive who die in sin.)

[QUOTE="_rock_"][QUOTE="jalexbrown"] I'm really glad that I don't believe in hell, so all of the worries about it are moot to me.

jalexbrown

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"]Technically Sheol only loosely translates to hell, and it carries an entirely different concept with it - at least amongst Jews, anyways.jalexbrown

I would go a bit further and say that untechnically Sheol doesn't translate to hell in any way, shape, or form. :P None of the modern Bibles translate it as such; only the King James Version does.

Which means that, if indeed hell does exist, God seemed to neglect to mention it at all for thousands of years... which strikes me as a bit curious.

Twice? It appears sixty-two times. :?

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]Sort of. Depending on which English Bible you pick out, there can be anywhere between four to zero Greek or Hebrew words that have been translated into the singular English word "hell". Those are the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. And yes, "zero" is not a typo; there are Bibles out there that do not include the word "hell" at any point from cover to cover.

GabuEx

Well, this is why I always say that if you really want to understand it, you need to go to the original languages. Even the best English translations do not sufficiently render important subtleties in the original languages, such as the difference between kolasis and timoria, two Greek words that both refer to punishment, but are differentiated by the first one meaning corrective punishment and the second meaning vengeful punishment.

(Bonus points for guessing which one is used in reference to the punishment that those receive who die in sin.)

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"] Another good reason I just can't take the book seriously, then.

jalexbrown

Well, this is why I always say that if you really want to understand it, you need to go to the original languages. Even the best English translations do not sufficiently render important subtleties in the original languages, such as the difference between kolasis and timoria, two Greek words that both refer to punishment, but are differentiated by the first one meaning corrective punishment and the second meaning vengeful punishment.

(Bonus points for guessing which one is used in reference to the punishment that those receive who die in sin.)

That's the obvious one to guess, given the modern conception of hell, but no, it's actually kolasis (Matthew 25:46).

[QUOTE="Ravirr"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] That's a respectable approach. I have no problem sharing my religious beliefs with those that are interested. I think one thing of importance is that Jews don't believe in hell, so evangelism is basically a pointless cause to them; from what would they be saving people?jalexbrown

That is probably why the jewish faith doesn't. But the local baptist church in my area does do its monthly fire and brime stone sermon, followed by the 20 minutes of Jesus is awesome come chill with him. ( I don't like this church but my whole family goes there sadly) . Its a rather poor approach to things IMO. Rather than talking about tough issues that non christians may be struggling with its just a whole appeal to emotion bit. Eh, its lame. But Baptists are very strong on converting people to save them from this firey death. Where judism has a different set of beliefs that governs there actions.

That I can agree with. A lot of christians only learn about other religions through biased sources instead of actually going to the various religions groups and talking to them about it to learn their perspective. While I haven't done this as much as I should, I have learned a whole lot more about other religons by going to the my local catholic church and talking to the members there about catholicism, or when I went to synagouge(sp) with a friend of mine.

Are those imaginary points or real points? I don't want to be bamboozled.

Gunslinger_1988

They're as real as you'd like them to be... :P

[QUOTE="Gunslinger_1988"]

Are those imaginary points or real points? I don't want to be bamboozled.

GabuEx

They're as real as you'd like them to be... :P

So its not like moderator for a day

Or gabu does his special Chocobo mating dance just for you

bummer :3

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I would go a bit further and say that untechnically Sheol doesn't translate to hell in any way, shape, or form. :P None of the modern Bibles translate it as such; only the King James Version does.

Which means that, if indeed hell does exist, God seemed to neglect to mention it at all for thousands of years... which strikes me as a bit curious.

GabuEx

Twice? It appears sixty-two times. :?

From your site (Genesis 37:35): and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, `For -- I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him.

From my site (Genesis 37:35): And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said: 'Nay, but I will go down to the grave to my son mourning.' And his father wept for him.

Hebrew-English Tanakh

If you cross-reference the passages from your site with one from an actual Hebrew-English Tanakh, you'll find the passages are different.

From your site (Genesis 37:35): and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, `For -- I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him.

From my site (Genesis 37:35): And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said: 'Nay, but I will go down to the grave to my son mourning.' And his father wept for him.

Hebrew-English Tanakh

jalexbrown

Well, yes, but the Hebrew word is Sheol, it's just been translated into "grave" in the English.

Well, yes, but the Hebrew word is Sheol, it's just been translated into "grave" in the English.

GabuEx

Then why are there two instances where it does occur? It's really irrelevant anyways, because your original point still stands; Sheol is not at all the same thing as hell, made more obvious by the fact that Jewish scripture translates the word to grave instead of hell. I believe you're right (I didn't think two times sounded right), but I do wonder why there are two instances where the word Sheol appears in the English translation.

jalexbrown

I couldn't really tell you why it was translated as it was, but take a look at the Hebrew; in the center on the second line of Genesis 37:35, there is the word שְׁאֹלָ; then, in 2 Samuel 22:6, there is the word שְׁאוֹל. Same root word, both mean the same thing, that being "unseen", or figuratively the place where dead people are.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"]

Then why are there two instances where it does occur? It's really irrelevant anyways, because your original point still stands; Sheol is not at all the same thing as hell, made more obvious by the fact that Jewish scripture translates the word to grave instead of hell. I believe you're right (I didn't think two times sounded right), but I do wonder why there are two instances where the word Sheol appears in the English translation.

GabuEx

I couldn't really tell you why it was translated as it was, but take a look at the Hebrew; in the center on the second line of Genesis 37:35, there is the word שְׁאֹלָ; then, in 2 Samuel 22:6, there is the word שְׁאוֹל. Same root word, both mean the same thing, that being "unseen", or figuratively the place where dead people are.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"]

Then why are there two instances where it does occur? It's really irrelevant anyways, because your original point still stands; Sheol is not at all the same thing as hell, made more obvious by the fact that Jewish scripture translates the word to grave instead of hell. I believe you're right (I didn't think two times sounded right), but I do wonder why there are two instances where the word Sheol appears in the English translation.

jalexbrown

I couldn't really tell you why it was translated as it was, but take a look at the Hebrew; in the center on the second line of Genesis 37:35, there is the word שְׁאֹלָ; then, in 2 Samuel 22:6, there is the word שְׁאוֹל. Same root word, both mean the same thing, that being "unseen", or figuratively the place where dead people are.

Yeah, it certainly helps. Like I said before, pretty well all the translations out there are insufficient for those who really, really want to understand what the original text said. And then there are other translations that should just be used by no one, ever... like the King James Version... :P

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I couldn't really tell you why it was translated as it was, but take a look at the Hebrew; in the center on the second line of Genesis 37:35, there is the word שְׁאֹלָ; then, in 2 Samuel 22:6, there is the word שְׁאוֹל. Same root word, both mean the same thing, that being "unseen", or figuratively the place where dead people are.

GabuEx

Yeah, it certainly helps. Like I said before, pretty well all the translations out there are insufficient for those who really, really want to understand what the original text said. And then there are other translations that should just be used by no one, ever... like the King James Version... :P

Most people are willing to accept even the most liberal or inaccurate English translation as "good enough". But reading the scripture in the original language really brings a whole never level of spirituality and understanding and insight to the process of reading scripture. Every Jewish convert that I know says that they'd never want to go back to reading English translations of the Tanakh.jalexbrown

Well, there's liberal and inaccurate, and then there's the King James Version, which has such gems as the inclusion of dragons, satyrs, unicorns, and other mythical creatures due to the translators just making **** up because they didn't know what words meant; blatant mistranslations such as using the word "turtle" instead of "turtledove"; overly complicated phrases like "gave up the ghost" when the original text just says "died"; very formal language despite the fact that Jesus spoke like the commoner that he was in life; finding the word "hell" 40 times more than basically any modern Bible due to the insistance that Sheol and Hades mean "hell"... it's just terrible. And the worst part is that there are people who believe that it is the only valid English Bible to use and that all others are corrupted, mostly on account of the fact that they use the Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament as their basis, whose text is originally Greek, rather than the Textus Receptus, which was translated to Greek from Latin.

...Yeah, this is kind of a pet peeve of mine... :P

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"]Most people are willing to accept even the most liberal or inaccurate English translation as "good enough". But reading the scripture in the original language really brings a whole never level of spirituality and understanding and insight to the process of reading scripture. Every Jewish convert that I know says that they'd never want to go back to reading English translations of the Tanakh.GabuEx

Well, there's liberal and inaccurate, and then there's the King James Version, which has such gems as the inclusion of dragons, satyrs, unicorns, and other mythical creatures due to the translators just making **** up because they didn't know what words meant; blatant mistranslations such as using the word "turtle" instead of "turtledove"; overly complicated phrases like "gave up the ghost" when the original text just says "died"; very formal language despite the fact that Jesus spoke like the commoner that he was in life; finding the word "hell" 40 times more than basically any modern Bible due to the insistance that Sheol and Hades mean "hell"... it's just terrible. And the worst part is that there are people who believe that it is the only valid English Bible to use and that all others are corrupted, mostly on account of the fact that they use the Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament as their basis, whose text is originally Greek, rather than the Textus Receptus, which was translated to Greek from Latin.

...Yeah, this is kind of a pet peeve of mine... :P