Is suicide an act of weakness or an act of strength?

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Ilovegames1992

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#51 Ilovegames1992
Member since 2010 • 14221 Posts

[QUOTE="meconate"]

[QUOTE="Rich3232"] Where else would it be? Rich3232

...equal? I'm pretty sure the families reasons for him living are just as powerful as his/her reasons for leaving.

Not really. Eventually, one will decide whether they will continue suffering(placing their own concerns/desires below others) or to off himself(thus placing his own concerns/desires above others).

Wouldn't the fact that it would be selfish of the other party to make the person keep suffering just so they wouldn't be upset by their death?

Seems like the ultimate emotional blackmail.

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Zeviander

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#52 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
Bodily sovereignty notwithstanding, it certainly is a waste of life, no matter what the subjective evaluation of it's "quality" might be.
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PernicioEnigma

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#53 PernicioEnigma
Member since 2010 • 6663 Posts

Whether they have a family or not, I'm sure we can all agree a person is more capable good alive than dead. If a suicidal person has no loved ones that doesn't mean they couldn't have a positive impact on someones life if they so choose. By killing themselves they're still putting an end to any potential good they could have done, even if no one mourns their death.

I'll also say that someone can consider suicide a selfish act and still sympathize and understand why someone feels it's their only choice. It's not an attempt to demonize people who kill themselves.

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Rich3232

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#54 Rich3232
Member since 2012 • 2628 Posts

[QUOTE="Rich3232"][QUOTE="meconate"] ...equal? I'm pretty sure the families reasons for him living are just as powerful as his/her reasons for leaving.

Ilovegames1992

Not really. Eventually, one will decide whether they will continue suffering(placing their own concerns/desires below others) or to off himself(thus placing his own concerns/desires above others).

Wouldn't the fact that it would be selfish of the other party to make the person keep suffering just so they wouldn't be upset by their death?

Seems like the ultimate emotional blackmail.

That's what I'm trying to say here. Short of the suicidal person not having any loved ones, someone will lose in the end. Selfishness to me does not really mean that much
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JigglyWiggly_

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#56 JigglyWiggly_
Member since 2009 • 24625 Posts

depends

if you gotta like sacrifice yourself in an epic 1v5 against ultra enemies to save your friends

dhat hero

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Ilovegames1992

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#57 Ilovegames1992
Member since 2010 • 14221 Posts

depends

if you gotta like sacrifice yourself in an epic 1v5 against ultra enemies to save your friends

dhat hero

JigglyWiggly_

That's all i want from life now. Either to die peacefully in my sleep tonight, or to die saving a baby or something.

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Rich3232

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#58 Rich3232
Member since 2012 • 2628 Posts

[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]

[QUOTE="meconate"] Nope, I'm saying you practically reworded the actual definition which ultimately means the say thing. What I'd love to hear is why you don't consider this selfishness.meconate

Are you trolling? Interests and concerns are most definitely not the same thing.I don't consider it selfishness because you'd have to be a fvcking tool if you don't do stuff because others will get sad. This dumb line of thinking can be applied to everything. Unless you've NEVER done something that made another person upset then you're a hypocrite.

You give an opinion and suddenly you're a troll? Right, of course.

And I think you need to consider what we're talking about here. Suicide. It's not just name calling or an argument that could cause some upset, we're talking about something here that could leave a whole family depressed or even leave a perminent effect.

What you're assuming here is that I've never had any, even slight experience on this subject. I've lived with someone who had severe depression and became suicidal, and believe me, it ain't pretty. Yet if this person were to have killed herself and leave her children behind to grow up without a mother, I consider that pretty damn selfish, don't you think?

Again, think of what the subject is here and how severe it is before you treat it as small as a minor insult.

I doubt a mother struggling from severe mental issues/depression would do much good for her kids.
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Rich3232

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#60 Rich3232
Member since 2012 • 2628 Posts
[QUOTE="Rich3232"][QUOTE="meconate"]

You give an opinion and suddenly you're a troll? Right, of course.

And I think you need to consider what we're talking about here. Suicide. It's not just name calling or an argument that could cause some upset, we're talking about something here that could leave a whole family depressed or even leave a perminent effect.

What you're assuming here is that I've never had any, even slight experience on this subject. I've lived with someone who had severe depression and became suicidal, and believe me, it ain't pretty. Yet if this person were to have killed herself and leave her children behind to grow up without a mother, I consider that pretty damn selfish, don't you think?

Again, think of what the subject is here and how severe it is before you treat it as small as a minor insult.

meconate
I doubt a mother struggling from severe mental issues/depression would do much good for her kids.

So she should have killed herself instead, you're saying? Nice logic.

Not necessarily, but if she were to hand over custody of the children over to someone who is more mentally stable and tried to receive help, that would be ideal. However, if treatment is not successful and she kills herself in the end, I wouldn't really hold it against her.
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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#61 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

You give an opinion and suddenly you're a troll? Right, of course.

And I think you need to consider what we're talking about here. Suicide. It's not just name calling or an argument that could cause some upset, we're talking about something here that could leave a whole family depressed or even leave a perminent effect.

What you're assuming here is that I've never had any, even slight experience on this subject. I've lived with someone who had severe depression and became suicidal, and believe me, it ain't pretty. Yet if this person were to have killed herself and leave her children behind to grow up without a mother, I consider that pretty damn selfish, don't you think?

Again, think of what the subject is here and how severe it is before you treat it as small as a minor insult.

meconate

No, I thought you were trolling for saying interests and concerns are the same. That or just misinformed.

Neat, nice anecdote. I didn't even assume anything but okay. I still wouldn't consider that selfish. Since you claim to have some experience on it, you should know that suicidal people aren't in the right state of mind when they do such things. Why you would decide to simplify it by calling it selfish is baffling to me.

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jim_shorts

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#62 jim_shorts
Member since 2006 • 7320 Posts
[QUOTE="Rich3232"] Not necessarily, but if she were to hand over custody of the children over to someone who is more mentally stable and tried to receive help, that would be ideal. However, if treatment is not successful and she kills herself in the end, I wouldn't really hold it against her.

I'm sure having a dead mother would be great for the development of the children.
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Rich3232

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#63 Rich3232
Member since 2012 • 2628 Posts
[QUOTE="jim_shorts"][QUOTE="Rich3232"] Not necessarily, but if she were to hand over custody of the children over to someone who is more mentally stable and tried to receive help, that would be ideal. However, if treatment is not successful and she kills herself in the end, I wouldn't really hold it against her.

I'm sure having a dead mother would be great for the development of the children.

Probably the same as having a mother who can't properly care for her kids because of severe mental issues. The kids lose either way.
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Leejjohno

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#65 Leejjohno
Member since 2005 • 13897 Posts

It depends why your doing it. Sometimes I can kind of see why people felt like there was no hope. And sometimes mental illness other than depression was a factor.

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IdioticIcarus

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#66 IdioticIcarus
Member since 2012 • 2167 Posts

Neither.

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-Tish-

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#68 -Tish-
Member since 2007 • 3624 Posts
[QUOTE="jim_shorts"]

I'd consider it an act of selfishness.

BluRayHiDef
So, they should continue living miserably just to make other people, their friends and family, and happy? That's ridiculous.

Like someone already said, getting help will alleviate much, if not all, of the misery.
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Leejjohno

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#69 Leejjohno
Member since 2005 • 13897 Posts

[QUOTE="BluRayHiDef"][QUOTE="jim_shorts"]

I'd consider it an act of selfishness.

-Tish-

So, they should continue living miserably just to make other people, their friends and family, and happy? That's ridiculous.

Like someone already said, getting help will alleviate much, if not all, of the misery.

Some people suffer hereditory chronic depression. It isn't fair to judge people in such situations.

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kingdre

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#70 kingdre
Member since 2005 • 9456 Posts

Depends on the circumstances. If someone kills himself because he got dumped by his gf, I'd consider it weak.

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deactivated-6243ee9902175

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#71 deactivated-6243ee9902175
Member since 2007 • 5847 Posts

It all depends on circumstance. It can be an act of weakness if someone kills themselves to avoid punishment, like after a killing spree at a school. It can also be an act of strength, like when the terminally ill man decides that he wants to kill himself instead of withering away to nothing which can cause a lot more pain long term. I personally think it is overwhelming the latter and rarely the former.

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jeremiah06

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#72 jeremiah06
Member since 2004 • 7217 Posts
For the sake of our society this is a question that we must never answer... if it turns out that by our very nature suicide is intrinsically brave it will lead a humanity to ruin...
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Ace6301

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#73 Ace6301
Member since 2005 • 21389 Posts
I fail to see how giving up could be considered strong.
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MrGeezer

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#74 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
You aren't in this world just to live for yourself.Shottayouth13-
Many people really are. This whole notion that they've got family and friends who give a $*** about them seems like it';s me projecting myself onto them. I've never been truly and utterly alone, so it's hard for me to understand the concept that other people truly ARE utterly alone. But there are people like that, and when they die literally no one on Earth gives a single flying f***.
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feared4power

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#75 feared4power
Member since 2008 • 621 Posts

[QUOTE="jim_shorts"]

I'd consider it an act of selfishness.

BluRayHiDef

So, they should continue living miserably just to make other people, their friends and family, and happy? That's ridiculous.

People think omg my life sucks right now so they kill themselves over dumb ****

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MrGeezer

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#76 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
Bodily sovereignty notwithstanding, it certainly is a waste of life, no matter what the subjective evaluation of it's "quality" might be.Zeviander
That's assuming that life has any intrinsic value, which is something that I'm not entirely convinced about.
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deactivated-5b19214ec908b

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#77 deactivated-5b19214ec908b
Member since 2007 • 25072 Posts

[QUOTE="BluRayHiDef"][QUOTE="jim_shorts"]

I'd consider it an act of selfishness.

feared4power

So, they should continue living miserably just to make other people, their friends and family, and happy? That's ridiculous.

People think omg my life sucks right now so they kill themselves over dumb ****

If people being depressed doesn't matter then surely the feelings of those that get affected by someone commiting suicide don't matter either.

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Ace6301

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#78 Ace6301
Member since 2005 • 21389 Posts
[QUOTE="Zeviander"]Bodily sovereignty notwithstanding, it certainly is a waste of life, no matter what the subjective evaluation of it's "quality" might be.MrGeezer
That's assuming that life has any intrinsic value, which is something that I'm not entirely convinced about.

Technically no matter what you're worth energy and resources. I forget what the raw net worth of a human is but it isn't negligible at any rate. Obviously people are worth whatever has been invested in them as well. Education and so forth.
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MrGeezer

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#79 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
[QUOTE="Ace6301"] Technically no matter what you're worth energy and resources. I forget what the raw net worth of a human is but it isn't negligible at any rate. Obviously people are worth whatever has been invested in them as well. Education and so forth.

At least in many cases, by the time those people decide to commit suicide, the "education and so forth" that has been invested in them has already been "wasted". In any case, the resources used to keep a person alive are often going to far outweigh the lost value caused by their death. Example: someone who just shoots heroin all day and robs people for heroin money probably isn't contributing much that makes his continued existence worthwhile.
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FMAB_GTO

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#80 FMAB_GTO
Member since 2010 • 14385 Posts
Depends.
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Ace6301

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#81 Ace6301
Member since 2005 • 21389 Posts
[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="Ace6301"] Technically no matter what you're worth energy and resources. I forget what the raw net worth of a human is but it isn't negligible at any rate. Obviously people are worth whatever has been invested in them as well. Education and so forth.

At least in many cases, by the time those people decide to commit suicide, the "education and so forth" that has been invested in them has already been "wasted". In any case, the resources used to keep a person alive are often going to far outweigh the lost value caused by their death. Example: someone who just shoots heroin all day and robs people for heroin money probably isn't contributing much that makes his continued existence worthwhile.

When arguing the value of something you can't take the worst case scenario as a representative worth for all cases.
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deactivated-60e799a72eb68

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#82 deactivated-60e799a72eb68
Member since 2008 • 1678 Posts

Anyhow, that's my opinion on it. What's yours? BluRayHiDef
People will tell themselves whatever they can to make sense of something they can't comprehend. This has never been a secret. People invent reasons when they find none.

Just look at how everyone plays the blame game after a school shooting.

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wis3boi

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#83 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

Ending your suffering at the expense of friends, family, and relatives is never a sign of strength

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MrGeezer

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#84 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
[QUOTE="Ace6301"] When arguing the value of something you can't take the worst case scenario as a representative worth for all cases.

I didn't say that was representative of all cases. But if we can agree that the worst case scenario is true in some cases, then then the best case scenario isn't representative of all cases either. Some people really are worthless. Some people really are trash, and they know it. In those cases, their lives have value to absolutely no one but themselves. And if their lives don't have value to themselves either (as is sometimes the case), then it's hard to consider it "a waste of life" once they're gone.
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deactivated-60e799a72eb68

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#85 deactivated-60e799a72eb68
Member since 2008 • 1678 Posts

Ending your suffering at the expense of friends, family, and relatives is never a sign of strength

wis3boi

This is toxic and insensitive to people with chronic mental illness/suffering. There reaches a point where it's selfish to force people to live or guilt trip them to keep going, as the pain of their death, even the sum of the pain experienced by everyone it affected, does not always exceed the suffering felt by this one individual. You can move on, they cannot.

This fact is overshadowed by the sheer number of people that commit suicide but could have led a fulfilling life, but gave up too soon. In that case, I agree with you.

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tocool340

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#86 tocool340
Member since 2004 • 21694 Posts
Both...
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tocool340

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#87 tocool340
Member since 2004 • 21694 Posts
[QUOTE="Rich3232"][QUOTE="meconate"]

You give an opinion and suddenly you're a troll? Right, of course.

And I think you need to consider what we're talking about here. Suicide. It's not just name calling or an argument that could cause some upset, we're talking about something here that could leave a whole family depressed or even leave a perminent effect.

What you're assuming here is that I've never had any, even slight experience on this subject. I've lived with someone who had severe depression and became suicidal, and believe me, it ain't pretty. Yet if this person were to have killed herself and leave her children behind to grow up without a mother, I consider that pretty damn selfish, don't you think?

Again, think of what the subject is here and how severe it is before you treat it as small as a minor insult.

meconate
I doubt a mother struggling from severe mental issues/depression would do much good for her kids.

So she should have killed herself instead, you're saying? Nice logic.

Not before taking the kids lives then her own like so many cases....
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-Renegade

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#88 -Renegade
Member since 2007 • 8340 Posts
It's an act about not caring.
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freek666

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#89 freek666
Member since 2007 • 22312 Posts

Neither, just a simple affirmation that the only person in true control of your life is yourself.

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ShadowsDemon

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#90 ShadowsDemon
Member since 2012 • 10059 Posts
It can be both.
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Spinnerweb

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#91 Spinnerweb
Member since 2009 • 2995 Posts
Cowardice.
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BluRayHiDef

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#92 BluRayHiDef
Member since 2009 • 10839 Posts
How about the followimg scenario: A person who is viewed as odd and potentially dangerous everywhere they go. When they're out in public, people avoid eye contact with them, don't go near them, mumble rude things when they walk pass them, tighten their grip on their belongings, pull their children closer to them, stare angrily, ignore them when they speak to ask for directions or something similarly simple, move away from an area when they come near, report them to local security because they supposedly look suspicious, etc. Imagine these things happening on a daily basis, multiple times per day, being viewed as a monster, even though you're not. Why would it be selfish to choose to not continue? I know some of you will sweep this under the rug and say it's not a big deal, or say that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, or that it's somehow the person's fault, so I'd like to tell you in advance that you're wrong.
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gamerguru100

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#94 gamerguru100
Member since 2009 • 12718 Posts
How about the followimg scenario: A person who is viewed as odd and potentially dangerous everywhere they go. When they're out in public, people avoid eye contact with them, don't go near them, mumble rude things when they walk pass them, tighten their grip on their belongings, pull their children closer to them, stare angrily, ignore them when they speak to ask for directions or something similarly simple, move away from an area when they come near, report them to local security because they supposedly look suspicious, etc. Imagine these things happening on a daily basis, multiple times per day, being viewed as a monster, even though you're not. Why would it be selfish to choose to not continue? I know some of you will sweep this under the rug and say it's not a big deal, or say that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, or that it's somehow the person's fault, so I'd like to tell you in advance that you're wrong. BluRayHiDef
That sounds like what some black people experience on an everyday basis, yet the suicide rates for whites and American Indians are a lot higher than for blacks. Strange.
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gamerguru100

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#95 gamerguru100
Member since 2009 • 12718 Posts

Depending on the circumstances, suicide can be either strong or weak. I agree that it's weak to commit suicide if you have good family and friends without even looking for help. However, treatment doesn't always work and not every suicidal person has access to mental health care or has loving relatives or friends. Some are literally quite lonely.

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Kats_RK

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#96 Kats_RK
Member since 2010 • 2080 Posts

You've got to have balls of steel to kill yourself.

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hippiesanta

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#97 hippiesanta
Member since 2005 • 10301 Posts
those who choose "both" or "depends" as an answer should be "guinea pig" on these suicide attempt .....
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MirkoS77

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#98 MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17966 Posts

For all those who find suicide selfish, cowardly, etc., I've got a few observations and questions.

Someon's terminally ill with cancer and is suffering immensely. Someone battles mental illness and depression. Both people are in constant agony, so I would like to know if you're okay for a terminally ill patient to kill themselves but not for someone who isn't? Is it just the fact that they have a terminal disease and are going to die anyway? Well in that case we're all dead one day. And if you are against taking one's own life in both cases, something tells me you wouldn't be so hasty to judge the person with cancer. If that's the case, why not? They're not at fault? Well neither is someone with Bipolar or Schizophrenia.

And if suicide is selfish, aren't both situations equally so, regardless in the manner or under the circumstances it occurs? The person killing themselves is doing so to cease pain with disregard to everyone else's. The people who look down on suicide demand that the other suffers so that they themselves won't feel pain. Difference being that the people who commit suicide don't wish pain upon others (though some suicides are committed to inflict pain), they simply want it to stop for them. People who aren't in pain want the other to endure it so they won't have to. So tell me again who's more selfish? How are both not at least equally so in this regard? As for cowardice, I don't see the act to be so at all. The reasons behind it may be to some people, but the act itself takes tremendous strength, commitment, determination and conviction.

The way I see it, if someone is suffering, they are suffering. I don't see how that suffering comes about holds any bearing on the morality of the act of killing one's self. The degree of pain is a point that's hard to determine and argue as there's no barometer to measure the amount any one person deals with relative to another, and even if there were everyone has different tolerances for it. What may kill someone in twenty years may kill me or you in one, and vice-versa. The person you judge as weak may well be able to last longer through something than you ever could dream of. So by what grounds do people have to hold anyone to any standard? Everyone has different breaking points, and everyone has different life experiences. You're judging those who kill themselves based on YOUR experience. These are no grounds to judge by at all. The only reason people claim suicide selfish and cowardly is to make themselves feel better, stronger, and courageous. Nothing more than selfish proclamations to boost their self-esteem at the expense of another who is obviously in great pain. Yea, real courageous.

And no, sometimes things will not get better even if help is sought, so the saying "it's a permanent solution to a...." (which I agree with in most
cases actually) is not always applicable. There are chronic mental illnesses that never go away but are (cruelly) unable to kill you outright like
terminal cancer eventually does yet suicide for the former is looked down upon while it's not so much for the latter. Both are terrible illnesses and both are not the fault of the one who bears them.

In the end, suicide is a sad situation any way you cut it. I feel equally bad for all parties involved, and yes, that includes the dead. But I would love to hear what the difference is of the two situations I mentioned above, and in addition on what foundation do you judge pain, suffering, and the tolerance to be able to endure it? The truth is, these things are subjective and you have none, therefor your judgments are based on ignorance and nothing more.

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Teenaged

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#99 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

Neither.

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The_Last_Ride

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#100 The_Last_Ride
Member since 2004 • 76371 Posts
both, kind of takes courage to end it all, but you are leaving a lot of people behind