Is the current global economic system leading us to catastrophe?

[QUOTE="deeliman"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]What I mean by that is if you start up a company and it became very successful, you will earn a lot of money yes. But you will never be able to lawfully and ethically earn billions of dollars, its just not possible. Though we can disagree on what should be lawful and/or ethical to an extent.GazaAli

L.O'fvcking.L.

I know some will yell at me "COMMUNIST" but I still don't understand why some people are allowed to own billions of dollars. What would they possibly do with all that money? They will never spend it, EVER, no matter how extravagant and gluttonous of lives they lead. On the other hand we have millions of people in serious need for a fraction of that money. A fraction of that wealth can change the lives of thousands if not millions of people in the blink of an eye. Yet they will most likely spend their lifetimes without getting a chance to a decent life. For fvck sake that is just screwed up. Some will say they earned it so they are entitled to the fruits of their labor. You must be completely out of touch with reality to actually believe that. They did not earn it, no one will ever be able to earn this much money. No one is capable of that its just not possible. It goes against what we know about the capacipty of the individual and the extent of his ability. The only possible explanation to the enormous wealth of the super rich is that they stole it one way or another. Maybe they stole it from the people, or from the state, or from other states it varies but the important part is that they did not earn it.

Imagine if this stolen wealth were to be released back to its rightful owners or those who deserve it, can you even begin to imagine how abundant resources will become?

GazaAli

Because it's not your place to say what someone can or can't have. Nor is it your place to determine who earned what. Deal with your lot in life, not somebody elses.

[QUOTE="prokadiri"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]Obviously.. We depend off a finite resources, especially when it comes to energy.. What do you think will happen when we run out of the said finite resource we depend off of?sSubZerOo

Yep uh huh.. We have oil industries out there spending billions in ensuring any and all threats to their profit margins are stamped down on.. The only time things will change is when we are at that point when we run out, and by then it may already be too late..

Yeah, bro. I can't beleive Rockafeller succeeded on not letting that whole eletricity thing take off. Oh wait..

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="prokadiri"] We'll find other?Person0

Yep uh huh.. We have oil industries out there spending billions in ensuring any and all threats to their profit margins are stamped down on.. The only time things will change is when we are at that point when we run out, and by then it may already be too late..

:| That's not how it works.. Price is dictated by demand, seeing as we can't tell how much oil is left we could hardly claim that price is the factor to why it is so expensive.. Furthermore the US has a 6 month emergency supply of some such things.. When people hear we are running out of oil, we would have mass panic.. People racing towards the pumps.. This would be like nothing we have dealt with before BECAUSE we are so dependent upon it.. The American auto industry nearly went belly up with a minor hiccup in the economy compared to something like this, you seriously think all of a sudden we would pull green energy solutions out of our ass when we have a economy that discourage such things?

[QUOTE="Person0"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Yep uh huh.. We have oil industries out there spending billions in ensuring any and all threats to their profit margins are stamped down on.. The only time things will change is when we are at that point when we run out, and by then it may already be too late..

sSubZerOo

:| That's not how it works.. Price is dictated by demand, seeing as we can't tell how much oil is left we could hardly claim that price is the factor to why it is so expensive.. Furthermore the US has a 6 month emergency supply of some such things.. When people hear we are running out of oil, we would have mass panic.. People racing towards the pumps.. This would be like nothing we have dealt with before BECAUSE we are so dependent upon it.. The American auto industry nearly went belly up with a minor hiccup in the economy compared to something like this, you seriously think all of a sudden we would pull green energy solutions out of our ass when we have a economy that discourage such things?

:| That's not how it works.. Price is dictated by demand, seeing as we can't tell how much oil is left we could hardly claim that price is the factor to why it is so expensive.. Furthermore the US has a 6 month emergency supply of some such things.. When people hear we are running out of oil, we would have mass panic.. People racing towards the pumps.. This would be like nothing we have dealt with before BECAUSE we are so dependent upon it.. The American auto industry nearly went belly up with a minor hiccup in the economy compared to something like this, you seriously think all of a sudden we would pull green energy solutions out of our ass when we have a economy that discourage such things?

sSubZerOo

I don't think you actually understand how the oil industry works.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="prokadiri"] We'll find other?SpartanMSU

Yep uh huh.. We have oil industries out there spending billions in ensuring any and all threats to their profit margins are stamped down on.. The only time things will change is when we are at that point when we run out, and by then it may already be too late..

Yeah, bro. I can't beleive Rockafeller succeeded on not letting that whole eletricity thing take off. Oh wait..

:| Oh yes because Rockafeller, a American tycoon of the early 19th century compares to a global economy in which entire nations politics revolve around.. Or do you think regions like the Middle East are highly important in the agendas of many nations because it's warm and sunny there? What do you think the Japanese did when they had oil cut off to them by the United States? Oh thats right Pearl Harbor, bro. The fact of the matter at this time the world economy runs on oil, to the point that a nation's political policies revolve around the economic importance of them... THe fact of the matter is we live in a reactionary time in which things only ever change when we are at that disaster point.. I am argueing the fact that I do not think the economy it self could survive such a disaster point when economy literally is the life blood of the industry.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:| That's not how it works.. Price is dictated by demand, seeing as we can't tell how much oil is left we could hardly claim that price is the factor to why it is so expensive.. Furthermore the US has a 6 month emergency supply of some such things.. When people hear we are running out of oil, we would have mass panic.. People racing towards the pumps.. This would be like nothing we have dealt with before BECAUSE we are so dependent upon it.. The American auto industry nearly went belly up with a minor hiccup in the economy compared to something like this, you seriously think all of a sudden we would pull green energy solutions out of our ass when we have a economy that discourage such things?

airshocker

I don't think you actually understand how the oil industry works.

Please elaborate.

[QUOTE="Person0"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Yep uh huh.. We have oil industries out there spending billions in ensuring any and all threats to their profit margins are stamped down on.. The only time things will change is when we are at that point when we run out, and by then it may already be too late..

sSubZerOo

:| That's not how it works.. Price is dictated by demand, seeing as we can't tell how much oil is left we could hardly claim that price is the factor to why it is so expensive.. Furthermore the US has a 6 month emergency supply of some such things.. When people hear we are running out of oil, we would have mass panic.. People racing towards the pumps.. This would be like nothing we have dealt with before BECAUSE we are so dependent upon it.. The American auto industry nearly went belly up with a minor hiccup in the economy compared to something like this, you seriously think all of a sudden we would pull green energy solutions out of our ass when we have a economy that discourage such things?

Please elaborate.

sSubZerOo

You seem to be under the impression that the oil industry doesn't have an idea of how much oil we do have. That is absurd. There's a reason the oil industry employs thousands of geologists, and it's not to let them mosey about looking at rocks all day.

You also think that one day we're just going to run out of oil. As Person0 said, the price alone will force other alternatives to be viable long before that happens.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="Person0"] Its not like one day there's oil the next day its all gone. It will slowly raise in price until alternatives are cost efficient then those new cost efficient technologies will be adopted.prokadiri

:| That's not how it works.. Price is dictated by demand, seeing as we can't tell how much oil is left we could hardly claim that price is the factor to why it is so expensive.. Furthermore the US has a 6 month emergency supply of some such things.. When people hear we are running out of oil, we would have mass panic.. People racing towards the pumps.. This would be like nothing we have dealt with before BECAUSE we are so dependent upon it.. The American auto industry nearly went belly up with a minor hiccup in the economy compared to something like this, you seriously think all of a sudden we would pull green energy solutions out of our ass when we have a economy that discourage such things?

Yes of oil actually pumped out of the ground, yes, not by the knowledge of the oil we have in the ground which is my point.. We don't lnow how much is left, we can't make a sound strategy or policy in how and when we should get off it's dependence.. Furthermore I never said we had 6 months of oil left.. What I said was the US keeps a safety stock pile of around that in case of a emergency.. I never said we were running out right at this moment, I pointed out it is a finite product that we are addicted of, and our consumption is increasing not decreasing.. And one day it will run out.. And based upon human behavior of other such events, we will not do anything about it until it is right on top of us.. IN which point I would argue it is too late..

[QUOTE="prokadiri"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:| That's not how it works.. Price is dictated by demand, seeing as we can't tell how much oil is left we could hardly claim that price is the factor to why it is so expensive.. Furthermore the US has a 6 month emergency supply of some such things.. When people hear we are running out of oil, we would have mass panic.. People racing towards the pumps.. This would be like nothing we have dealt with before BECAUSE we are so dependent upon it.. The American auto industry nearly went belly up with a minor hiccup in the economy compared to something like this, you seriously think all of a sudden we would pull green energy solutions out of our ass when we have a economy that discourage such things?

sSubZerOo

Yes of oil actually pumped out of the ground, yes, not by the knowledge of the oil we have in the ground which is my point.. We don't lnow how much is left, we can't make a sound strategy or policy in how and when we should get off it's dependence.. Furthermore I never said we had 6 months of oil left.. What I said was the US keeps a safety stock pile of around that in case of a emergency.. I never said we were running out right at this moment, I pointed out it is a finite product that we are addicted of, and our consumption is increasing not decreasing.. And one day it will run out.. And based upon human behavior of other such events, we will not do anything about it until it is right on top of us.. IN which point I would argue it is too late..

[QUOTE="prokadiri"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:| That's not how it works.. Price is dictated by demand, seeing as we can't tell how much oil is left we could hardly claim that price is the factor to why it is so expensive.. Furthermore the US has a 6 month emergency supply of some such things.. When people hear we are running out of oil, we would have mass panic.. People racing towards the pumps.. This would be like nothing we have dealt with before BECAUSE we are so dependent upon it.. The American auto industry nearly went belly up with a minor hiccup in the economy compared to something like this, you seriously think all of a sudden we would pull green energy solutions out of our ass when we have a economy that discourage such things?

sSubZerOo

Yes of oil actually pumped out of the ground, yes, not by the knowledge of the oil we have in the ground which is my point.. We don't lnow how much is left, we can't make a sound strategy or policy in how and when we should get off it's dependence.. Furthermore I never said we had 6 months of oil left.. What I said was the US keeps a safety stock pile of around that in case of a emergency.. I never said we were running out right at this moment, I pointed out it is a finite product that we are addicted of, and our consumption is increasing not decreasing.. And one day it will run out.. And based upon human behavior of other such events, we will not do anything about it until it is right on top of us.. IN which point I would argue it is too late..

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="prokadiri"] Do you seriously believe America is fighting over Russia and Canada over 6 months oil? There's much much more oil than you think left. It's not going away any time soon. Also, price is not dictated soleley by demand. it's also dictated by supply.Person0

Yes of oil actually pumped out of the ground, yes, not by the knowledge of the oil we have in the ground which is my point.. We don't lnow how much is left, we can't make a sound strategy or policy in how and when we should get off it's dependence.. Furthermore I never said we had 6 months of oil left.. What I said was the US keeps a safety stock pile of around that in case of a emergency.. I never said we were running out right at this moment, I pointed out it is a finite product that we are addicted of, and our consumption is increasing not decreasing.. And one day it will run out.. And based upon human behavior of other such events, we will not do anything about it until it is right on top of us.. IN which point I would argue it is too late..

Not sure how that is some how a good example.. We are talking about the global economy in which we use oil not just for personal vehicles but numerous other things including materials like plastics.. And your example of "see see WE ARE DOING something!" is a personal vehicle that very few will afford..... Seriously we had a domino effect 10 years ago with certain economic policies which led to the ruination of large swathes of the economy.. We saw the warning signs, nothing was done about it until the damage was done.. And you seriously think the global economy would some how survive this if they suddenly found out they had only 5 years of oil left with countries like India and China that are geometrically increasing in oil consumption.. If your reasoning was correct our consumption would be going down due to the increase in prices.. When it is not, it is increasing in the United States regardless of prices.

[QUOTE="Person0"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Yes of oil actually pumped out of the ground, yes, not by the knowledge of the oil we have in the ground which is my point.. We don't lnow how much is left, we can't make a sound strategy or policy in how and when we should get off it's dependence.. Furthermore I never said we had 6 months of oil left.. What I said was the US keeps a safety stock pile of around that in case of a emergency.. I never said we were running out right at this moment, I pointed out it is a finite product that we are addicted of, and our consumption is increasing not decreasing.. And one day it will run out.. And based upon human behavior of other such events, we will not do anything about it until it is right on top of us.. IN which point I would argue it is too late..

sSubZerOo

Not sure how that is some how a good example.. We are talking about the global economy in which we use oil not just for personal vehicles but numerous other things including materials like plastics.. And your example of "see see WE ARE DOING something!" is a personal vehicle that very few will afford..... Seriously we had a domino effect 10 years ago with certain economic policies which led to the ruination of large swathes of the economy.. We saw the warning signs, nothing was done about it until the damage was done.. And you seriously think the global economy would some how survive this if they suddenly found out they had only 5 years of oil left with countries like India and China that are geometrically increasing in oil consumption.. If your reasoning was correct our consumption would be going down due to the increase in prices.. When it is not, it is increasing in the United States regardless of prices.

[QUOTE="Person0"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Yes of oil actually pumped out of the ground, yes, not by the knowledge of the oil we have in the ground which is my point.. We don't lnow how much is left, we can't make a sound strategy or policy in how and when we should get off it's dependence.. Furthermore I never said we had 6 months of oil left.. What I said was the US keeps a safety stock pile of around that in case of a emergency.. I never said we were running out right at this moment, I pointed out it is a finite product that we are addicted of, and our consumption is increasing not decreasing.. And one day it will run out.. And based upon human behavior of other such events, we will not do anything about it until it is right on top of us.. IN which point I would argue it is too late..

sSubZerOo

Not sure how that is some how a good example.. We are talking about the global economy in which we use oil not just for personal vehicles but numerous other things including materials like plastics.. And your example of "see see WE ARE DOING something!" is a personal vehicle that very few will afford..... Seriously we had a domino effect 10 years ago with certain economic policies which led to the ruination of large swathes of the economy.. We saw the warning signs, nothing was done about it until the damage was done.. And you seriously think the global economy would some how survive this if they suddenly found out they had only 5 years of oil left with countries like India and China that are geometrically increasing in oil consumption.. If your reasoning was correct our consumption would be going down due to the increase in prices.. When it is not, it is increasing in the United States regardless of prices.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="prokadiri"] Do you seriously believe America is fighting over Russia and Canada over 6 months oil? There's much much more oil than you think left. It's not going away any time soon. Also, price is not dictated soleley by demand. it's also dictated by supply.prokadiri

Yes of oil actually pumped out of the ground, yes, not by the knowledge of the oil we have in the ground which is my point.. We don't lnow how much is left, we can't make a sound strategy or policy in how and when we should get off it's dependence.. Furthermore I never said we had 6 months of oil left.. What I said was the US keeps a safety stock pile of around that in case of a emergency.. I never said we were running out right at this moment, I pointed out it is a finite product that we are addicted of, and our consumption is increasing not decreasing.. And one day it will run out.. And based upon human behavior of other such events, we will not do anything about it until it is right on top of us.. IN which point I would argue it is too late..

You mean how the global economy and the US economy self correct it self during the little hiccup (compared to something like this) did a few years back? IN which many industries only survived by massive deposits made by the US government to survive.. If anything it tells us they will not do anything until at the cusp of the event by which time it would already be too late, the global economy will collapse.. Especially when we have behemoths like China and India ONLY STARTING up on their consumption at this time due to rapid industrialization.. WHat do you think would happen to the global economy if China bought it? Let's say the US were to some how survive this with a alternative route, you seriously think China would still do the same when it is still modernizing that this time?

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="Person0"] We're already doing things about it...heard of TESLA cars? The problem is that right now those technologies are young and expensive, they will get cheaper over time. As they get cheaper oil will get more expensive because of lower supply.prokadiri

Not sure how that is some how a good example.. We are talking about the global economy in which we use oil not just for personal vehicles but numerous other things including materials like plastics.. And your example of "see see WE ARE DOING something!" is a personal vehicle that very few will afford..... Seriously we had a domino effect 10 years ago with certain economic policies which led to the ruination of large swathes of the economy.. We saw the warning signs, nothing was done about it until the damage was done.. And you seriously think the global economy would some how survive this if they suddenly found out they had only 5 years of oil left with countries like India and China that are geometrically increasing in oil consumption.. If your reasoning was correct our consumption would be going down due to the increase in prices.. When it is not, it is increasing in the United States regardless of prices.

There in lies the problem, this isn't some minor resource, we literally use this to run almost everything.. And no where did I say we would die, simply put our economy and most likely many nations would implode on themselves.. And as I stated on another post.. Let's say if the United States was able to do it and found a proper alternative before it was too late.. Do you think China and India would in their current trend would in time? Do you seriously think the US would not be hit hard by the immense loss of a huge trade partner such as China for instance?

Either way guys I am sorry for this heated argument, I don't mean to sound condescending or try to rankle anyone here.. I merely don't hold the same faith in humanity as you guys do based on what I have seen of past events.

[QUOTE="prokadiri"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Yes of oil actually pumped out of the ground, yes, not by the knowledge of the oil we have in the ground which is my point.. We don't lnow how much is left, we can't make a sound strategy or policy in how and when we should get off it's dependence.. Furthermore I never said we had 6 months of oil left.. What I said was the US keeps a safety stock pile of around that in case of a emergency.. I never said we were running out right at this moment, I pointed out it is a finite product that we are addicted of, and our consumption is increasing not decreasing.. And one day it will run out.. And based upon human behavior of other such events, we will not do anything about it until it is right on top of us.. IN which point I would argue it is too late..

sSubZerOo

You mean how the global economy and the US economy self correct it self during the little hiccup (compared to something like this) did a few years back? IN which many industries only survived by massive deposits made by the US government to survive.. If anything it tells us they will not do anything until at the cusp of the event by which time it would already be too late, the global economy will collapse.. Especially when we have behemoths like China and India ONLY STARTING up on their consumption at this time due to rapid industrialization.. WHat do you think would happen to the global economy if China bought it? Let's say the US were to some how survive this with a alternative route, you seriously think China would still do the same when it is still modernizing that this time?

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="prokadiri"] This is non-sense. Oil companies themselves will find and advance alternative energies long before the end. Humanity never idles when money is involved.prokadiri

You mean how the global economy and the US economy self correct it self during the little hiccup (compared to something like this) did a few years back? IN which many industries only survived by massive deposits made by the US government to survive.. If anything it tells us they will not do anything until at the cusp of the event by which time it would already be too late, the global economy will collapse.. Especially when we have behemoths like China and India ONLY STARTING up on their consumption at this time due to rapid industrialization.. WHat do you think would happen to the global economy if China bought it? Let's say the US were to some how survive this with a alternative route, you seriously think China would still do the same when it is still modernizing that this time?

Thats just it though lets say we do get our oil fix.. We depend off our trade partners for numerous resources.. IN fact we have more imports now then we have exports, much of it is from China.. What do you think would happen to our economy if China suddenly collapsed? The problem is this, we are reactionary.. We do not work on problems until it is on top of us and beating us over the head with it.. Another example of this is within the United States in which our infastructure (roads, bridges, dams, electrical grid, etc etc) is literally crumbling under us because not enough funds are put into it.. Yet again I apologize if I am coming off as hostile, snide etc etc.. That is not my intention.

[QUOTE="prokadiri"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

You mean how the global economy and the US economy self correct it self during the little hiccup (compared to something like this) did a few years back? IN which many industries only survived by massive deposits made by the US government to survive.. If anything it tells us they will not do anything until at the cusp of the event by which time it would already be too late, the global economy will collapse.. Especially when we have behemoths like China and India ONLY STARTING up on their consumption at this time due to rapid industrialization.. WHat do you think would happen to the global economy if China bought it? Let's say the US were to some how survive this with a alternative route, you seriously think China would still do the same when it is still modernizing that this time?

sSubZerOo

Thats just it though lets say we do get our oil fix.. We depend off our trade partners for numerous resources.. IN fact we have more imports now then we have exports, much of it is from China.. What do you think would happen to our economy if China suddenly collapsed? The problem is this, we are reactionary.. We do not work on problems until it is on top of us and beating us over the head with it.. Another example of this is within the United States in which our infastructure (roads, bridges, dams, electrical grid, etc etc) is literally crumbling under us because not enough funds are put into it.. Yet again I apologize if I am coming off as hostile, snide etc etc.. That is not my intention.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="prokadiri"] China is already beginning to stall and USA now controls more oil than there's now in whole of middle east. There's going to be a mess but as long as there are alternative energies, we'll go through it. Now, water is another issue.prokadiri

Thats just it though lets say we do get our oil fix.. We depend off our trade partners for numerous resources.. IN fact we have more imports now then we have exports, much of it is from China.. What do you think would happen to our economy if China suddenly collapsed? The problem is this, we are reactionary.. We do not work on problems until it is on top of us and beating us over the head with it.. Another example of this is within the United States in which our infastructure (roads, bridges, dams, electrical grid, etc etc) is literally crumbling under us because not enough funds are put into it.. Yet again I apologize if I am coming off as hostile, snide etc etc.. That is not my intention.

I wish I was as optemistic as you guys, but everything I have seen, seems to be the opposite.. We have reactionary responses afterwards when the damage is already done.. IT took the American auto industry to almost go belly up and gas nearly to reach $5 a gallon before they started changing their toons and making more fuel efficent cars to compete with foreign companies.. It took the blackout of 2003 in several states for people to start asking questions about the state of our power grid, not before it.

[QUOTE="prokadiri"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Thats just it though lets say we do get our oil fix.. We depend off our trade partners for numerous resources.. IN fact we have more imports now then we have exports, much of it is from China.. What do you think would happen to our economy if China suddenly collapsed? The problem is this, we are reactionary.. We do not work on problems until it is on top of us and beating us over the head with it.. Another example of this is within the United States in which our infastructure (roads, bridges, dams, electrical grid, etc etc) is literally crumbling under us because not enough funds are put into it.. Yet again I apologize if I am coming off as hostile, snide etc etc.. That is not my intention.

sSubZerOo

I wish I was as optemistic as you guys, but everything I have seen, seems to be the opposite.. We have reactionary responses afterwards when the damage is already done.. IT took the American auto industry to almost go belly up and gas nearly to reach $5 a gallon before they started changing their toons and making more fuel efficent cars to compete with foreign companies.. It took the blackout of 2003 in several states for people to start asking questions about the state of our power grid, not before it.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="prokadiri"] Don't worry about seeming hostile to me, I got no prob. I'm not sure what we're arguing. If we find alternative resources we survive, if not we die.Person0

I wish I was as optemistic as you guys, but everything I have seen, seems to be the opposite.. We have reactionary responses afterwards when the damage is already done.. IT took the American auto industry to almost go belly up and gas nearly to reach $5 a gallon before they started changing their toons and making more fuel efficent cars to compete with foreign companies.. It took the blackout of 2003 in several states for people to start asking questions about the state of our power grid, not before it.

Actually that is one of my main points.. It is specifically MONEY diverting us from any kind of real alternatives at this time.. Money in the huge cost it would take to overhaul our economy to a different primary resource.. And specifically MONEY through the oil industries in ensuring the economic climate stays healthy for their profits.. Money is one of the main incentives to why man made climate change models are being attacked, specifically because it could lead to policy changing that could hurt profit margins. It is little surprise that the majority of the said science organizations who rally against the said models are funded by fossil fuel industries. For all the money alternative energy may create, it has to start up first while competing against a global trillion dollar industry.

[QUOTE="Person0"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

I wish I was as optemistic as you guys, but everything I have seen, seems to be the opposite.. We have reactionary responses afterwards when the damage is already done.. IT took the American auto industry to almost go belly up and gas nearly to reach $5 a gallon before they started changing their toons and making more fuel efficent cars to compete with foreign companies.. It took the blackout of 2003 in several states for people to start asking questions about the state of our power grid, not before it.

sSubZerOo

Actually that is one of my main points.. It is specifically MONEY diverting us from any kind of real alternatives at this time.. Money in the huge cost it would take to overhaul our economy to a different primary resource.. And specifically MONEY through the oil industries in ensuring the economic climate stays healthy for their profits.. Money is one of the main incentives to why man made climate change models are being attacked, specifically because it could lead to policy changing that could hurt profit margins. It is little surprise that the majority of the said science organizations who rally against the said models are funded by fossil fuel industries. For all the money alternative energy may create, it has to start up first while competing against a global trillion dollar industry.

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

I know some will yell at me "COMMUNIST" but I still don't understand why some people are allowed to own billions of dollars. What would they possibly do with all that money? They will never spend it, EVER, no matter how extravagant and gluttonous of lives they lead. On the other hand we have millions of people in serious need for a fraction of that money. A fraction of that wealth can change the lives of thousands if not millions of people in the blink of an eye. Yet they will most likely spend their lifetimes without getting a chance to a decent life. For fvck sake that is just screwed up. Some will say they earned it so they are entitled to the fruits of their labor. You must be completely out of touch with reality to actually believe that. They did not earn it, no one will ever be able to earn this much money. No one is capable of that its just not possible. It goes against what we know about the capacipty of the individual and the extent of his ability. The only possible explanation to the enormous wealth of the super rich is that they stole it one way or another. Maybe they stole it from the people, or from the state, or from other states it varies but the important part is that they did not earn it.

Imagine if this stolen wealth were to be released back to its rightful owners or those who deserve it, can you even begin to imagine how abundant resources will become?

airshocker

Because it's not your place to say what someone can or can't have. Nor is it your place to determine who earned what. Deal with your lot in life, not somebody elses.

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

I know some will yell at me "COMMUNIST" but I still don't understand why some people are allowed to own billions of dollars. What would they possibly do with all that money? They will never spend it, EVER, no matter how extravagant and gluttonous of lives they lead. On the other hand we have millions of people in serious need for a fraction of that money. A fraction of that wealth can change the lives of thousands if not millions of people in the blink of an eye. Yet they will most likely spend their lifetimes without getting a chance to a decent life. For fvck sake that is just screwed up. Some will say they earned it so they are entitled to the fruits of their labor. You must be completely out of touch with reality to actually believe that. They did not earn it, no one will ever be able to earn this much money. No one is capable of that its just not possible. It goes against what we know about the capacipty of the individual and the extent of his ability. The only possible explanation to the enormous wealth of the super rich is that they stole it one way or another. Maybe they stole it from the people, or from the state, or from other states it varies but the important part is that they did not earn it.

Imagine if this stolen wealth were to be released back to its rightful owners or those who deserve it, can you even begin to imagine how abundant resources will become?

GazaAli

Because it's not your place to say what someone can or can't have. Nor is it your place to determine who earned what. Deal with your lot in life, not somebody elses.

The American Dream. In America, even our poor people have this impression that if they work hard, everything will fall in place for them and they'll become successful. 

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

I know some will yell at me "COMMUNIST" but I still don't understand why some people are allowed to own billions of dollars. What would they possibly do with all that money? They will never spend it, EVER, no matter how extravagant and gluttonous of lives they lead. On the other hand we have millions of people in serious need for a fraction of that money. A fraction of that wealth can change the lives of thousands if not millions of people in the blink of an eye. Yet they will most likely spend their lifetimes without getting a chance to a decent life. For fvck sake that is just screwed up. Some will say they earned it so they are entitled to the fruits of their labor. You must be completely out of touch with reality to actually believe that. They did not earn it, no one will ever be able to earn this much money. No one is capable of that its just not possible. It goes against what we know about the capacipty of the individual and the extent of his ability. The only possible explanation to the enormous wealth of the super rich is that they stole it one way or another. Maybe they stole it from the people, or from the state, or from other states it varies but the important part is that they did not earn it.

Imagine if this stolen wealth were to be released back to its rightful owners or those who deserve it, can you even begin to imagine how abundant resources will become?

GazaAli

Because it's not your place to say what someone can or can't have. Nor is it your place to determine who earned what. Deal with your lot in life, not somebody elses.

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

- John Steinbeck

Capitalism is not a zero sum game.

Never in the history of humanity has there been as high a quality of life for most people as there is today. The poor in the developed world live better than the kings of old.

Things in the developing world are not quite there, but are moving in the right direction as the middleclass grows in China, India, Brazil, etc.

The desperately poor and dying are an embarassment that the rest of us share for letting it be so. Obviously we aren't quite there yet but we are making progress.

All the population size, resource constraints, etc issues are tied to two things which are interrelated: getting the majority of people to our approx economic condition which is self sustaining, and doing so by ensuring that energy is available at a reasonable cost everywhere.

[QUOTE="EntropyWins"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

Maybe we should stop wasting 1/3 of the world's food, spending gazillions of dollars on war and imperialist shit and allowing a handful of schmucks of owning heaps of money on the expense of the people. That would be a great start. Enough with the "depleting resources" and "overpopulation" BS...

GazaAli

What do you think wars are fought over? Maybe limited resources? Food is one of many resources that are currently being wasted at an alarming rate by a percentage of our planet. A troubling trend for me though is that instead of us learning to consume less, we are teaching the rest of the world how awesome it is to consume and waste more.

The wealth disparity only exacerbates the issue.Honestly, I don't think most people mind that there are super wealthy people as long as we still are living decent lives, but if resources become more scarce and prices go up the rest of us will suffer while the wealthy still enjoy their gluttonous lifestyles then conflict is inevitable also.

So I guess I would like you to explain what you mean when you refer to those issues as BS.

I think of them as BS because in my opinion they're not real in the sense that they do have realistic, applicable and somehow straightforward solutions. There is an argument that the world is overpopulated and earth can no longer sustain the needs of its human population. This argument is BS because earth's resources are more than enough to sustain a reasonably comfortable and even luxurious life for its entire human population and possibly much more. If we are able to fund wars of ridiculously huge budgets and military spendings in the trillions of dollars then I can definitely say we're not facing a resources problem.

The way you're looking at the whole situation suggests that you think wars are being fought over resources because they're being depleted. I see the whole thing from an opposite angle. Resources are in short because of imperialist wars that do not serve the interest of the majority of earth's population. They only serve the interests of megalomaniac, egotistical minority and the interests of the super rich. In short, resources were more than enough then they became in shortage because of wars. Going by this arrangement, it does not make sense to say that we're fighting wars over resources per say.

I know some will yell at me "COMMUNIST" but I still don't understand why some people are allowed to own billions of dollars. What would they possibly do with all that money? They will never spend it, EVER, no matter how extravagant and gluttonous of lives they lead. On the other hand we have millions of people in serious need for a fraction of that money. A fraction of that wealth can change the lives of thousands if not millions of people in the blink of an eye. Yet they will most likely spend their lifetimes without getting a chance to a decent life. For fvck sake that is just screwed up. Some will say they earned it so they are entitled to the fruits of their labor. You must be completely out of touch with reality to actually believe that. They did not earn it, no one will ever be able to earn this much money. No one is capable of that its just not possible. It goes against what we know about the capacipty of the individual and the extent of his ability. The only possible explanation to the enormous wealth of the super rich is that they stole it one way or another. Maybe they stole it from the people, or from the state, or from other states it varies but the important part is that they did not earn it.

Imagine if this stolen wealth were to be released back to its rightful owners or those who deserve it, can you even begin to imagine how abundant resources will become?

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]What I mean by that is if you start up a company and it became very successful, you will earn a lot of money yes. But you will never be able to lawfully and ethically earn billions of dollars, its just not possible. Though we can disagree on what should be lawful and/or ethical to an extent.deeliman

Most sociologists agree that the population of the Earth is beginning to level off. The problem is handling itself.

[QUOTE="deeliman"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]What I mean by that is if you start up a company and it became very successful, you will earn a lot of money yes. But you will never be able to lawfully and ethically earn billions of dollars, its just not possible. Though we can disagree on what should be lawful and/or ethical to an extent.gamerguru100

I got news for you, most poor people are poor for a pretty good reason. At least that is the way it is in the USA. Sounds heartless, I know.

[QUOTE="EntropyWins"][QUOTE="Barbariser"]

There's no reason why an interventionist capitalist system is going to be any worse at handling overpopulation issues as compared to any other kind of economy.

Barbariser

Capitalist market economies encourage consumption with massive PR campaigns that manipulate our culture to embrace consumerism and productivism. The market dosn't wan't rational consumers. So phsycology is being used to turn people into animals of want, instead of helping those in need. The weding ring tradition was actualy started by a PR campaign. Scary fact I learned from my mass comm teacher.

[QUOTE="gamerguru100"][QUOTE="deeliman"] Of course you can lawfully earn all that money, it doesn't happen often but it can happen. And as for ethically, well, that's something subjective, some people will find it unethical, and some people won't.Amvis

I got news for you, most poor people are poor for a pretty good reason. At least that is the way it is in the USA. Sounds heartless, I know.

[QUOTE="deeliman"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]What I mean by that is if you start up a company and it became very successful, you will earn a lot of money yes. But you will never be able to lawfully and ethically earn billions of dollars, its just not possible. Though we can disagree on what should be lawful and/or ethical to an extent.gamerguru100

The American Dream. In America, even our poor people have this impression that if they work hard, everything will fall in place for them and they'll become successful. 

nomsayin

Which is quite a load to tell people when social mobility isn't very high.  Rags to ritches stories make for just that, a good story.  For the vast majority of people however they will stay in the socio economic class they were born into. 

oh look, airshocker is mad. The most depressing part of the current status quo is how fiercely some will defend it. I doubt you are super rich, you wouldn't be wasting your time on OT. So why exactly are you in favor of how things are? I don't get it.GazaAli

Not sure how you could possibly interpret anything in my post as me being mad. My point still stands

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]oh look, airshocker is mad. The most depressing part of the current status quo is how fiercely some will defend it. I doubt you are super rich, you wouldn't be wasting your time on OT. So why exactly are you in favor of how things are? I don't get it.airshocker

Not sure how you could possibly interpret anything in my post as me being mad. My point still stands

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

[QUOTE="EntropyWins"] I don't disagree with any of your initial statements. But I don't understand why you think limited resources and overpopulation issues are BS?

What do you think wars are fought over? Maybe limited resources? Food is one of many resources that are currently being wasted at an alarming rate by a percentage of our planet. A troubling trend for me though is that instead of us learning to consume less, we are teaching the rest of the world how awesome it is to consume and waste more.

The wealth disparity only exacerbates the issue.Honestly, I don't think most people mind that there are super wealthy people as long as we still are living decent lives, but if resources become more scarce and prices go up the rest of us will suffer while the wealthy still enjoy their gluttonous lifestyles then conflict is inevitable also.

So I guess I would like you to explain what you mean when you refer to those issues as BS.

gamerguru100

I think of them as BS because in my opinion they're not real in the sense that they do have realistic, applicable and somehow straightforward solutions. There is an argument that the world is overpopulated and earth can no longer sustain the needs of its human population. This argument is BS because earth's resources are more than enough to sustain a reasonably comfortable and even luxurious life for its entire human population and possibly much more. If we are able to fund wars of ridiculously huge budgets and military spendings in the trillions of dollars then I can definitely say we're not facing a resources problem.

The way you're looking at the whole situation suggests that you think wars are being fought over resources because they're being depleted. I see the whole thing from an opposite angle. Resources are in short because of imperialist wars that do not serve the interest of the majority of earth's population. They only serve the interests of megalomaniac, egotistical minority and the interests of the super rich. In short, resources were more than enough then they became in shortage because of wars. Going by this arrangement, it does not make sense to say that we're fighting wars over resources per say.

I know some will yell at me "COMMUNIST" but I still don't understand why some people are allowed to own billions of dollars. What would they possibly do with all that money? They will never spend it, EVER, no matter how extravagant and gluttonous of lives they lead. On the other hand we have millions of people in serious need for a fraction of that money. A fraction of that wealth can change the lives of thousands if not millions of people in the blink of an eye. Yet they will most likely spend their lifetimes without getting a chance to a decent life. For fvck sake that is just screwed up. Some will say they earned it so they are entitled to the fruits of their labor. You must be completely out of touch with reality to actually believe that. They did not earn it, no one will ever be able to earn this much money. No one is capable of that its just not possible. It goes against what we know about the capacipty of the individual and the extent of his ability. The only possible explanation to the enormous wealth of the super rich is that they stole it one way or another. Maybe they stole it from the people, or from the state, or from other states it varies but the important part is that they did not earn it.

Imagine if this stolen wealth were to be released back to its rightful owners or those who deserve it, can you even begin to imagine how abundant resources will become?

While I am empathetic to the humanistic elements of his post, what he is identifying as weakness has little to do with wealth generation; rather, it is largely about social choices that we make as societies around wealth redistribution.

The total economic value of the richest of the rich in aggregate pales in comparison to the total economic output of the economy. The large majority of total economic output is consumed in ways that benefit the overwhelming % of citizens in the developed world and increasingly in the developing world.

Nothing has been stolen by the rich (excepting criminal behaviour). People who ascribe to us vs them in capitalism do not understand capitalism. The rich can get richer, while simultaneously the lives of the non rich can be improved. China, India, Brazil etc are perfect examples of this. Similarly, the working poor today in N America have decent accomodations, TVs, cell phones etc. Arguably these are basics today, but the standard of what is basic continues to rise.

Also his last point is completely backwards. If you spent all of the wealth the rich horde you would increase aggregate demand and consume more resources.