Is the problem of evil sufficient to disprove God?

I know that murder is wrong becuase it means the the unnecessary death of an innocent human being -- that's all i need to know.

We can get all post-modernist and ultimately determine that there is no such thing as right and wrong, but I think that's besides the point.

Anyways, if you derive your whole morality from God, then you are not very moral at all, because you are acting on those morals perhaps not because you believe in them but because somebody has told you to believe in them. From what Nintedawg said, he is not acting on those morals for his compassion for humanity, but rather that is what he was told.

Theistic morality is robotic.

I'm fine with using religion as a source of morality, however implieing that morality can only be derived from theism is nihilistic.

MetalGear_Ninty

And whether one gets morals from a God, the law, society, or even a movie....you are still exposed to an idea from without.

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

I'm in the 1840's, America. Or around that time, give or take a few decades. And morality had to have entered it. How could it not?

LJS9502_basic

Yes, I'm aware that slavery existed LONG before then (dating back to Babylon), but the fact remains that people argued its morality and tried to justify it in some cases. Some people saw it as moral, but it is now immoral. Morality changes.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

I know that murder is wrong becuase it means the the unnecessary death of an innocent human being -- that's all i need to know.

We can get all post-modernist and ultimately determine that there is no such thing as right and wrong, but I think that's besides the point.

Anyways, if you derive your whole morality from God, then you are not very moral at all, because you are acting on those morals perhaps not because you believe in them but because somebody has told you to believe in them. From what Nintedawg said, he is not acting on those morals for his compassion for humanity, but rather that is what he was told.

Theistic morality is robotic.

I'm fine with using religion as a source of morality, however implieing that morality can only be derived from theism is nihilistic.

LJS9502_basic

And whether one gets morals from a God, the law, society, or even a movie....you are still exposed to an idea from without.

Well yeah, there is no such thing as an absolute morality -- it can only be subjective. Like I said before, nothing is inherently bad or good.

Even with the bible, you can't be absolutely sure that it is true, because you can't be sure of God's existence.

I'm not saying that morality from religion is bad, just it is not the only source of morality, and that everything you read from it should be read and considered deeply and not just accepted without thought.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

I'm in the 1840's, America. Or around that time, give or take a few decades. And morality had to have entered it. How could it not?

Video_Game_King

Yes, I'm aware that slavery existed LONG before then (dating back to Babylon), but the fact remains that people argued its morality and tried to justify it in some cases. Some people saw it as moral, but it is now immoral. Morality changes.

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

I'm in the 1840's, America. Or around that time, give or take a few decades. And morality had to have entered it. How could it not?

LJS9502_basic

Yes, I'm aware that slavery existed LONG before then (dating back to Babylon), but the fact remains that people argued its morality and tried to justify it in some cases. Some people saw it as moral, but it is now immoral. Morality changes.

What do you mean, "us"? Are you a group of weirdos, monitoring the Internet to weed out rebels? Are you....The Patriots? The Empire? Who are you, damnit!? *starts torturing LJS9502_basic*

Well yeah, there is no such thing as an absolute morality -- it can only be subjective. Like I said before, nothing is inherently bad or good.

Even with the bible, you can't be absolutely sure that it is true, because you can't be sure of God's existence.

I'm not saying that morality from religion is bad, just it is not the only source of morality, and that everything you read from it should be read and considered deeply and not just accepted without thought.

MetalGear_Ninty

What do you mean, "us"? Are you a group of weirdos, monitoring the Internet to weed out rebels? Are you....The Patriots? The Empire? Who are you, damnit!? *starts torturing LJS9502_basic*

Video_Game_King

I could've sworn this thread ended on the first page. >_>the_foreign_guy

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

What do you mean, "us"? Are you a group of weirdos, monitoring the Internet to weed out rebels? Are you....The Patriots? The Empire? Who are you, damnit!? *starts torturing LJS9502_basic*

LJS9502_basic

Ah, so you like torture, eh? You into that fetish? How about I force you to play through Battletoads? And every time you die in the game, I rip off a body part. Oh, and you have to listen to Queen while I smash Cure CDs.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Well yeah, there is no such thing as an absolute morality -- it can only be subjective. Like I said before, nothing is inherently bad or good.

Even with the bible, you can't be absolutely sure that it is true, because you can't be sure of God's existence.

I'm not saying that morality from religion is bad, just it is not the only source of morality, and that everything you read from it should be read and considered deeply and not just accepted without thought.

LJS9502_basic

The morals in The Bbile are very sound, but they do not belong to christinaity, the moral of 'no murder' doesn't belong to Christianity. I'm sure murder was condemned long before te birth of christianity.

People feel that murder is wrong, even if they haven't been taught it per se; if a child was brought up in a media vacuum then they would still know that murder is wrong; you don't need the bible to tell you that.

Ah, for example, HIV is a new age disease, and obviously not present during the times that The Bible was written, we know that if you have HIV, it would be amoral to willingly spread to other people -- this wasn't stated in the bible, yet we know it is wrong.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

What do you mean, "us"? Are you a group of weirdos, monitoring the Internet to weed out rebels? Are you....The Patriots? The Empire? Who are you, damnit!? *starts torturing LJS9502_basic*

Video_Game_King

Ah, so you like torture, eh? You into that fetish? How about I force you to play through Battletoads? And every time you die in the game, I rip off a body part. Oh, and you have to listen to Queen while I smash Cure CDs.

Now that's going over the line....

The morals in The Bbile are very sound, but they do not belong to christinaity, the moral of 'no murder' doesn't belong to Christianity. I'm sure murder was condemned long before te birth of christianity.

People feel that murder is wrong, even if they haven't been taught it per se; if a child was brought up in a media vacuum then they would still know that murder is wrong; you don't need the bible to tell you that.

Ah, for example, HIV is a new age disease, and obviously not present during the times that The Bible was written, we know that if you have HIV, it would be amoral to willingly spread to other people -- this wasn't stated in the bible, yet we know it is wrong.

MetalGear_Ninty

How would a child know murder was wrong? That doesn't necessarily follow. You are assuming.

HIV is only one example.....but the morality does tie back to older morals.

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

What do you mean, "us"? Are you a group of weirdos, monitoring the Internet to weed out rebels? Are you....The Patriots? The Empire? Who are you, damnit!? *starts torturing LJS9502_basic*

LJS9502_basic

Ah, so you like torture, eh? You into that fetish? How about I force you to play through Battletoads? And every time you die in the game, I rip off a body part. Oh, and you have to listen to Queen while I smash Cure CDs.

Now that's going over the line....

Oh, I'll go over the line as much as I want. I'll make Robert Smith dress in office attire, without the make up or hair. I'll kick his ass, just for you. Until you admit that I'm right on this!

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

The morals in The Bbile are very sound, but they do not belong to christinaity, the moral of 'no murder' doesn't belong to Christianity. I'm sure murder was condemned long before te birth of christianity.

People feel that murder is wrong, even if they haven't been taught it per se; if a child was brought up in a media vacuum then they would still know that murder is wrong; you don't need the bible to tell you that.

Ah, for example, HIV is a new age disease, and obviously not present during the times that The Bible was written, we know that if you have HIV, it would be amoral to willingly spread to other people -- this wasn't stated in the bible, yet we know it is wrong.

LJS9502_basic

How would a child know murder was wrong? That doesn't necessarily follow. You are assuming.

HIV is only one example.....but the morality does tie back to older morals.

You are saying that modern day morality is a cause of the Bible, factually, that is wrong, because you've no way to prove if the Bible didn't exist, then people wouldn't act like they do now anyway.

What you are saying is also nihilstic, because you are suggesting human morality is based upon following orders; which begs the question, if murder wasn't condemned in the Bible, would you still think it wrong?

May this thread and all similar threads perish!

To answer your question...NO! With no evil there is no good.

Oh, I'll go over the line as much as I want. I'll make Robert Smith dress in office attire, without the make up or hair. I'll kick his ass, just for you. Until you admit that I'm right on this!

Video_Game_King

You are saying that modern day morality is a cause of the Bible, factually, that is wrong, because you've no way to prove if the Bible didn't exist, then people wouldn't act like they do now anyway.

What you are saying is also nihilstic, because you are suggesting human morality is based upon following orders; which begs the question, if murder wasn't condemned in the Bible, would you still think it wrong?

MetalGear_Ninty

Morals are not innate.

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

Oh, I'll go over the line as much as I want. I'll make Robert Smith dress in office attire, without the make up or hair. I'll kick his ass, just for you. Until you admit that I'm right on this!

LJS9502_basic

Uh-hu, first stage of grief: denial. *shocks any area considered sexual, plays Queen while burning Cure CDs*

There is a lot of evil and suffering in the world. Is the problem of evil and suffering sufficient to disprove God?X4D

For God to remove evil from the world, he would have to remove sin, sin is a human's choice, therefore to remove evil you must remove choice, God does not take away a human's choice, its free will, as he has demonstrated on many occasions.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

You are saying that modern day morality is a cause of the Bible, factually, that is wrong, because you've no way to prove if the Bible didn't exist, then people wouldn't act like they do now anyway.

What you are saying is also nihilstic, because you are suggesting human morality is based upon following orders; which begs the question, if murder wasn't condemned in the Bible, would you still think it wrong?

LJS9502_basic

Morals are not innate.

Morality existed before The Bible was even written.

BTW, the onus is on the theist to prove that morality wouldn't have existed without religion, not the other way round.

Morality existed before The Bible was even written.

BTW, the onus is on the theist to prove that morality wouldn't have existed without religion, not the other way round.

MetalGear_Ninty

Two....actually the onus is on the person making statements as facts. Thus, you have made statements as facts and it is you that need provide proof that morality would exist today as it does without Biblical existence. Otherwise...you are just assuming due to personal bias.

Otherwise your argument comes down to "I can say anything I want because I don't have to prove it."

Off to work...

If there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God, why do religion threads still happen?xaos

That's what I'm saying! If he's so potent, there wouldn't even be different religions. He'd let the world know what he's all about in NO uncertain terms.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Morality existed before The Bible was even written.

BTW, the onus is on the theist to prove that morality wouldn't have existed without religion, not the other way round.

LJS9502_basic

Two....actually the onus is on the person making statements as facts. Thus, you have made statements as facts and it is you that need provide proof that morality would exist today as it does without Biblical existence. Otherwise...you are just assuming due to personal bias.

Just jumping in here...excuse me..."Theists" probably wasn't the right word, but I think he's absolutely correct...and for the reason you stated. Why would non-religious people say their morality would not exist without religion?! It's 1000% the other way around -- religious people OFTEN claim (loudly, I might add) that people who don't share their beliefs are immoral.

And, btw, since you stated it as a fact, how can you prove that the bible was "spoken before it was written"?

And, btw, since you stated it as a fact, how can you prove that the bible was "spoken before it was written"?

fartgorilla

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Morality existed before The Bible was even written.

BTW, the onus is on the theist to prove that morality wouldn't have existed without religion, not the other way round.

LJS9502_basic

Two....actually the onus is on the person making statements as facts. Thus, you have made statements as facts and it is you that need provide proof that morality would exist today as it does without Biblical existence. Otherwise...you are just assuming due to personal bias.

Otherwise your argument comes down to "I can say anything I want because I don't have to prove it."

Off to work...

Hinduism is widely recognised as the oldest religion, Hinduism teaches morality, therefore morality existed before The Bible's teachings.

Don't forget the Ancient Egyptians as well, they certainly weren't without morals.

Hinduism is widely recognised as the oldest religion, Hinduism teaches morality, therefore morality existed before The Bible's teachings.

MetalGear_Ninty

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Hinduism is widely recognised as the oldest religion, Hinduism teaches morality, therefore morality existed before The Bible's teachings.

Harshvardhan666

:?

from a christian stand point i know u cant, because people brought in evil not God. everything was perect until adam and eve sinned, becasue God had given man free will and we ruined it, so now the only way to heaven is through Jesus because we are all imperfect and only perfect people can get to heaven, so Jesus takes away our sin when we accept him a ssavior..

so thats what all the Christians say but idk

from a christian stand point i know u cant, because people brought in evil not God. everything was perect until adam and eve sinned, becasue God had given man free will and we ruined it, so now the only way to heaven is through Jesus because we are all imperfect and only perfect people can get to heaven, so Jesus takes away our sin when we accept him a ssavior..

so thats what all the Christians say but idk

HotVchick

That standpoint is flawed. Adam and Eve were perfect, therefore they wouldn't have sinned. Sin is a sign of imperfection.

[QUOTE="HotVchick"]

from a christian stand point i know u cant, because people brought in evil not God. everything was perect until adam and eve sinned, becasue God had given man free will and we ruined it, so now the only way to heaven is through Jesus because we are all imperfect and only perfect people can get to heaven, so Jesus takes away our sin when we accept him a ssavior..

so thats what all the Christians say but idk

Funky_Llama

That standpoint is flawed. Adam and Eve were perfect, therefore they wouldn't have sinned. Sin is a sign of imperfection.

where do u read that they were perfect??

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Hinduism is widely recognised as the oldest religion, Hinduism teaches morality, therefore morality existed before The Bible's teachings.

Harshvardhan666

Eventhough in the Bible there is passages about cruelty towards women, a father letting his daughter being raped, there are quite a few examples of immorality in the bible.

[QUOTE="Harshvardhan666"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Hinduism is widely recognised as the oldest religion, Hinduism teaches morality, therefore morality existed before The Bible's teachings.

MetalGear_Ninty

Eventhough in the Bible there is passages about cruelty towards women, a father letting his daughter being raped, there are quite a few examples of immorality in the bible.

really give us the book chapter and verse please

[QUOTE="Harshvardhan666"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Hinduism is widely recognised as the oldest religion, Hinduism teaches morality, therefore morality existed before The Bible's teachings.

MetalGear_Ninty

Eventhough in the Bible there is passages about cruelty towards women, a father letting his daughter being raped, there are quite a few examples of immorality in the bible.

i don't know about raping and stuff because I haven't read the holy book of hinduism.Harshvardhan666

there's several of those.

[QUOTE="Harshvardhan666"]i don't know about raping and stuff because I haven't read the holy book of hinduism.Hewkii

there's several of those.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="HotVchick"]

from a christian stand point i know u cant, because people brought in evil not God. everything was perect until adam and eve sinned, becasue God had given man free will and we ruined it, so now the only way to heaven is through Jesus because we are all imperfect and only perfect people can get to heaven, so Jesus takes away our sin when we accept him a ssavior..

so thats what all the Christians say but idk

HotVchick

That standpoint is flawed. Adam and Eve were perfect, therefore they wouldn't have sinned. Sin is a sign of imperfection.

where do u read that they were perfect??

1. It was a perfect world. Adam and Eve, if they were imperfect, would have contradicted that.

2. Adam and Eve were made in God's image... if they were imperfect, that must have reflected some imperfection on God's part, so God would be imperfect.

[QUOTE="HotVchick"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="HotVchick"]

from a christian stand point i know u cant, because people brought in evil not God. everything was perect until adam and eve sinned, becasue God had given man free will and we ruined it, so now the only way to heaven is through Jesus because we are all imperfect and only perfect people can get to heaven, so Jesus takes away our sin when we accept him a ssavior..

so thats what all the Christians say but idk

Funky_Llama

That standpoint is flawed. Adam and Eve were perfect, therefore they wouldn't have sinned. Sin is a sign of imperfection.

where do u read that they were perfect??

1. It was a perfect world. Adam and Eve, if they were imperfect, would have contradicted that.

2. Adam and Eve were made in God's image... if they were imperfect, that must have reflected some imperfection on God's part, so God would be imperfect.

ur right everything was meant to be perfect at the beginning. but u are forgettig that God did not want to be the manipulator of man so he gave them a free will. all they had to do was do as God told them and it woud have been perfect, but they didnt and they disobeyed God. therefore ruining that chance of a perfect world.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="HotVchick"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="HotVchick"]

from a christian stand point i know u cant, because people brought in evil not God. everything was perect until adam and eve sinned, becasue God had given man free will and we ruined it, so now the only way to heaven is through Jesus because we are all imperfect and only perfect people can get to heaven, so Jesus takes away our sin when we accept him a ssavior..

so thats what all the Christians say but idk

HotVchick

That standpoint is flawed. Adam and Eve were perfect, therefore they wouldn't have sinned. Sin is a sign of imperfection.

where do u read that they were perfect??

1. It was a perfect world. Adam and Eve, if they were imperfect, would have contradicted that.

2. Adam and Eve were made in God's image... if they were imperfect, that must have reflected some imperfection on God's part, so God would be imperfect.

ur right everything was meant to be perfect at the beginning. but u are forgettig that God did not want to be the manipulator of man so he gave them a free will. all they had to do was do as God told them and it woud have been perfect, but they didnt and they disobeyed God. therefore ruining that chance of a perfect world.

And that's where the problem lies: if they were perfect, they would not sin. Yes, they had free will to do so, but a perfect being would not sin.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="Harshvardhan666"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Hinduism is widely recognised as the oldest religion, Hinduism teaches morality, therefore morality existed before The Bible's teachings.

HotVchick

Eventhough in the Bible there is passages about cruelty towards women, a father letting his daughter being raped, there are quite a few examples of immorality in the bible.

really give us the book chapter and verse please

Gladly. Judges 22-26

22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."

24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go.

26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

[QUOTE="HotVchick"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="Harshvardhan666"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Hinduism is widely recognised as the oldest religion, Hinduism teaches morality, therefore morality existed before The Bible's teachings.

MetalGear_Ninty

Eventhough in the Bible there is passages about cruelty towards women, a father letting his daughter being raped, there are quite a few examples of immorality in the bible.

really give us the book chapter and verse please

Gladly. Judges 22-26

22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."

24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go.

26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

good job. but the bible is condeming these actions not teaching them. this passage is from judges right, judges is about how evil man was and God had to appoint a judge to turn the people around after letting his chosen people be captured and fester and rot in their own sin. so find another where u think the bible is teraching imoral acts