[QUOTE="Ninja-Kitteh"][QUOTE="magicalclick"]That was a weak excuse, but, oh well, :roll:magicalclickWhat excuse did i make? :? Boy people are hostile today. Saying you were born in the wrong country of course. Unless your country don't have a beach, which I forgot. Anyway, I am not hostile LOL. I'm sorry i must have misinterpted your intentions, i thought you were being mean. :P There are beaches where i live but not warm ones. Besides i wasn't using that as an excuse by any means, just a reason why i dont live like that in the first place. I could absolutely leave and go live somewhere else and i really hope i am able to one day.
Is western life becoming more and more meaningless?
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[QUOTE="magicalclick"][QUOTE="Ninja-Kitteh"] What excuse did i make? :? Boy people are hostile today.Ninja-KittehSaying you were born in the wrong country of course. Unless your country don't have a beach, which I forgot. Anyway, I am not hostile LOL. I'm sorry i must have misinterpted your intentions, i thought you were being mean. :P There are beaches where i live but not warm ones. Besides i wasn't using that as an excuse by any means, just a reason why i dont live like that in the first place. I could absolutely leave and go live somewhere else and i really hope i am able to one day.
I felt in a similar way to you back in 2002, and 6 months later I moved to Australia where I still am. It wasn't my intention to stay here for so long, but the whole process was very liberating and – once on a plane – surprisingly smooth and easy (bar the obvious missing family and close friends)
You misunderstand in saying that i am imposing my feelings on others. For example, you mention a social worker. They might absolutely love their life, life itself and everything that comes with it and find it all very meaningful. That's fine by me, that's their thought and their view. I am not saying they must feel as i do. People who do things to help others are an interesting example though. That's always an intriguing idea to contemplate i think, and if life were to be MORE meaningful (which i know is a very unrealistic and abstract notion) i think it would be so if many, many more of us focused our efforts on helping each other rather than ourselves. As for happiness; i dont think happiness is really relevant. I am a happy person for example, and i may live a happy life, but i'd still find it pointless if it were lived as i described.I think the main issue is that your definition of meaningless is vague. You said that the western life is becoming more meaningless,as if, western life initially had more meaning, but you fail to explain what gives it more meaning. You repeatedly claim that the western societies promote the idea of working to earn money in order to buy neat stuff, but you didn't explain how that is meaningless. If someone enjoys their job as a social worker, because the oppurtunity to help others makes that person happy; how would their life be meaningless? If someone else enjoys fashion, and works in order to afford clothes to wear as a way of expressing themselves; how would their life be meaningless? If a person in a western society dies after living, at least what they find to be, a happy and satisfying life, how would their former life be meaningless? You may not find these things meaningless because they don't hold any interest in you, but it doesn't mean that others feel the same way. Hell, I don't know what gives a life meaning, but as long as people are happy, I think that's all that should matter. So yeah, a meaningful life really is what the person makes out of it.
Khoaki
[QUOTE="Pirate700"]Um, not really. If society functions in a manner which creates and incubates that meaninglessness i think it's very much a sociological issue, not an individual one. No, I'm gong to have to agree with Pirate. Life is what you make it. For instance you could always prioritize family and happiness.If life is meaningless, that's on you. Not society.
Ninja-Kitteh
Advancements in technology happen out of necessity not because we have time to spare. Even if most of the time it was leisure time for hunter-gatherer societies they spent it in other important stuff like doing art, tending children, walking, just resting, stuff like that. There was no time to get bored as we do today. I think you're thinking about artistic advancements due to the technology we have today. Well if we don't need technology and are living well without it we don't create technology. That's a constant in all human groups. Once technology is needed due to an increasing population or harsh climate conditions then we create it. Also technological advancements create new necessities for which we need even more technology so it is a vicious cycle.RedruM_I
I don't know, man. Most of the advancements in technology that we have today are not done out of "necessity" either. They are "conveniences" that help to sell a product.
The key words here being "convenience" and "sell". Modern capitalism obviously wouldn't have applied. But I like to think that given the time to solve "inconveniences", that people would have done so. Especially with that much free time. People absolutely try to make things more convient. And as you said, these were essentially the same people as you or me. They weren't monkey-ish idiots, they were modern humans who were every bit as intelligent as you or I.
And as far as art goes, I'm really not talking about technology. people today can do wondrous things with charcoal and something to draw on, and I'm assuming that hunter-gathers had that same technology. If they know how to make fire, have plant material to burn, and have rocks on which to draw, that's essentially the same technology. That technology should have been available for a HUGE percentage of mankind's time on earth. Yet, during that time, how much advancement do we see?
Though again, I'm no art historian, and maybe there are very many hunter-gather examples of paintings which deal with things such as perspective and light study. I've just never seen that to be the case, based on the little that I've seen.
[QUOTE="Khoaki"]You misunderstand in saying that i am imposing my feelings on others. For example, you mention a social worker. They might absolutely love their life, life itself and everything that comes with it and find it all very meaningful. That's fine by me, that's their thought and their view. I am not saying they must feel as i do. People who do things to help others are an interesting example though. That's always an intriguing idea to contemplate i think, and if life were to be MORE meaningful (which i know is a very unrealistic and abstract notion) i think it would be so if many, many more of us focused our efforts on helping each other rather than ourselves. As for happiness; i dont think happiness is really relevant. I am a happy person for example, and i may live a happy life, but i'd still find it pointless if it were lived as i described. I understand that you're not forcing people to feel the same as you do, but it seems to me that you're labeling their lives as meaningless because they engage in the activities that are promoted by western societies. It also now seems that you associate the helping of others as meaningful and I completely respect that. For me, I don't believe that life originally comes with any meaning, but since all humans have the cognitive ability to generate symbols and apply them to practically everything in life, that is what gives meaning to their own lives. I can't see why happiness is irrelevant; is it not the most positive emotion that any human may experience in their lifetime? Actually, I think it's the other way around. The meaning of life is irrelevant, because no one really knows what the real definition is. Therefore, instead of wasting time pondering on whether there is meaning in one's life, why not take the simpler path and pursue happiness? Happiness is easier to find, especially when the one doesn't expect too much just and lives for the moment. Your question was: Is western life becoming more and more meaningless? I say it depends on the individual. Sociologists can conduct surveys and ask the western population whether they find that their lives are meaningful or meaningless, and can generate an average based on those results. Maybe the statistics would show that the majority of the population does view life as meaningless. However, that is difficult because everyone's view is subjective: one's definition of meaning can be totally different than another's definition of meaning. In sum, I don't think that there is any possible way of measuring the meaning of western life!I think the main issue is that your definition of meaningless is vague. You said that the western life is becoming more meaningless,as if, western life initially had more meaning, but you fail to explain what gives it more meaning. You repeatedly claim that the western societies promote the idea of working to earn money in order to buy neat stuff, but you didn't explain how that is meaningless. If someone enjoys their job as a social worker, because the oppurtunity to help others makes that person happy; how would their life be meaningless? If someone else enjoys fashion, and works in order to afford clothes to wear as a way of expressing themselves; how would their life be meaningless? If a person in a western society dies after living, at least what they find to be, a happy and satisfying life, how would their former life be meaningless? You may not find these things meaningless because they don't hold any interest in you, but it doesn't mean that others feel the same way. Hell, I don't know what gives a life meaning, but as long as people are happy, I think that's all that should matter. So yeah, a meaningful life really is what the person makes out of it.
Ninja-Kitteh
I just realized that I was totally reiterating your post there, except you explained it a lot better. Sorry about that. :PNo, I don't think life is any more meaningful or meaningless than it ever was. Really, it boils down to individual priorities and whether or not those individuals are fulfilling their priorities. I for one am extremely satisfied with my life, and I live in the Western world. So it is certainly not meaningless to me, and I'm not alone. What IS happening is an increased rate of dissatisfaction. Too many people are getting caught in careers they pursued for the wrong reasons and don't enjoy at all. And in that sense, life certainly may feel somewhat less meaningful to many, because all they have to look forward to is the daily grind... which they despise. Ideally, your work should be a source of pride and passion for you, and it should bring you fulfillment. The money is just a necessary benefit for doing something you love which provides something of value to other people, enhancing their lives.
Humans have a tendency to romanticize the past. In reality, society is probably a better place to live now than it was in centuries gone by, but we only remember the good things about centuries gone by. We don't fully appreciate the many cruelties, hardships, and injustices that people suffered. We also have a tendency to romanticize the "simple life." It's a lot of fun to live that way in small doses, but just like many places in the world, it's nice to visit, but if you stay too long, the allure evaporates, leaving you right back where you started.
pianist
However much you put into it is what you will get out of it.
muller39
not really...
*DISCUSSION BEGINS HERE* Is western life becoming more and more pointless and meaningless? It seems to me like the goal in life thanks to our capitalist society is to make as much money as possible, surround yourself with as many nice things as possible, and then die having fulfilled no real purpose whatsoever in all your years. What do you guys think?Ninja-Kitteh
Well, it's not like the same things aren't available in the east. It's not "western life", it's "modern life". I wouldn't say meaningless, there is still a point to work to support a family/oneself, there is still a point to forge relationships, and there is still a point to reproduce and continue the human race.
You're still young (I assume) since you seem to think life is all material. Love, children, friends, etc. are all not material things, and these are the most important part of any human's existence. I'm sure that once you start a family, you'll see what I mean. I would hope nobody's goal in life is to make as much money as possible, get as many nice things as possible, and then die alone.
Personally, I'd be able to die happy if I had a long, loving marriage and got to see my children become adults, regardless of material possessions or the size of my bank account.
[QUOTE="RedruM_I"] Advancements in technology happen out of necessity not because we have time to spare. Even if most of the time it was leisure time for hunter-gatherer societies they spent it in other important stuff like doing art, tending children, walking, just resting, stuff like that. There was no time to get bored as we do today. I think you're thinking about artistic advancements due to the technology we have today. Well if we don't need technology and are living well without it we don't create technology. That's a constant in all human groups. Once technology is needed due to an increasing population or harsh climate conditions then we create it. Also technological advancements create new necessities for which we need even more technology so it is a vicious cycle.MrGeezer
I don't know, man. Most of the advancements in technology that we have today are not done out of "necessity" either. They are "conveniences" that help to sell a product.
The key words here being "convenience" and "sell". Modern capitalism obviously wouldn't have applied. But I like to think that given the time to solve "inconveniences", that people would have done so. Especially with that much free time. People absolutely try to make things more convient. And as you said, these were essentially the same people as you or me. They weren't monkey-ish idiots, they were modern humans who were every bit as intelligent as you or I.
And as far as art goes, I'm really not talking about technology. people today can do wondrous things with charcoal and something to draw on, and I'm assuming that hunter-gathers had that same technology. If they know how to make fire, have plant material to burn, and have rocks on which to draw, that's essentially the same technology. That technology should have been available for a HUGE percentage of mankind's time on earth. Yet, during that time, how much advancement do we see?
Though again, I'm no art historian, and maybe there are very many hunter-gather examples of paintings which deal with things such as perspective and light study. I've just never seen that to be the case, based on the little that I've seen.
What you said about capitalism is true. It promotes the creation of technology to sell products which in itself is a necessity within the capitalist society. But that technology comes from necessity rather than from too much free time is corroborated to the point of it to be deemed an undisputable fact. There are even examples of hunter-gatherer societies (in Oceania if I remember correctly) who lost technology like the ability to make fire due to the fact that they didn't need it to survive. And there are impressive feats from those people regarding art and the little technology they used. Up until now to replicate the kind of weapons they used for hunting with the technology they had then is a very difficult job for a human today. Even using current technology it is difficult to replicate such a work. Piramids and monuments are other impressive feats as are theories they came up with like the Dogon which knew about the Sirius twin stars without using a telescope! Something which could only be corroborated by modern humans using today's technology. Too much free time like that can make you do impressive stuff indeed. But as I said if they had no necessity for technology they wouldn't have created it and they basically worried for other stuff. Once things get harsh huge technological advancements like those which come with agriculture kick in and after that it's a vicious cycle. You create technology to produce more food sources using agriculture so your population grows, after that you need more technology to feed that bigger population which makes it grow again so you need new technology (industrial revolution) and so on. That's why we "advanced" so much in a few years, the population grew exponientally so we needed the technology.
I am not sure it is life that is the western life that is meaningless to you, but rather the path youve chosen to walk, that does not fit you.
From what Ive seen, it matters little where you are in the world, or what society you belong to, there is a high chance of ending up empty and aggrivated due to it.
That said, I have a distaste for most forms of communications, if someone want to talk to me, show up in front of me, or call on the phone.
It is a long long while since I plugged my cellphone out of the grid (about 5 years) havent visited my facebook account more then a few times after making it, and generally prefer to - if having any kind of relationship with people, then not wear social masks, or try to live up to peoples expectations.
The constant texting, and updating of people I could care less about irritates me, and I consider the cell phone as a virtual prison, I can live without that kind of thing.
For you TC I think I would advice a trip outside the city, somewhere like a lodge in a mountain, or a somewhere along the coast as it seems you like that.
It pretty much sounds like you are burned out, and if you somehow feel that things around you are worthless or "fake" then I would strongly reconsider the path you are on.
But as I stated it really doessnt matter where you are in the world, those are thoughts that would hit you anywhere where you are not struggeling to find food everyday, and I can not belive that would be to prefer.
BTW: Your GF complain about stuff liek that? oh joy -.- love those situations where they complain about things you find so trivial it was not even worth saying in the first place.
From a philosophical point of view, life in itself is meaningless, as it is completely random and serves no purpose. We should be glad it is this way, as we have no great mandatory duties to fulfill.
Your question doesn't concern philosophical chitchat, however, and I'll have to agree with you that Western capitalist society is especially pointless. It generates an exclusively materialistic and economical outlook on life that limits itself by putting a price tag on everything. You just have to turn on your TV to see this. Only a few years until 'The Running Man' becomes reality.
What do we do? Nothing, basically. We sit, try to enjoy the ride, and wait until this system destroys itself from within.
A lot of people turn to religion to fill that 'void' in their lives. I think it's up to you to define what you feel is a 'meaningful' life. Society is a construct, whether you use society for your own means or get absorbed into it is up to you.
I love school, my GF is hot and insanely awesome, most of my laughs derive from sitting in from of a computer, I have lived in LA my whole life so dirty air is my equilibrium, facebook offers a few yuks no and then, every person I surround myself with is hilarious, and I love my phone. Western. Life. Is. AWESOME.clayron
Don't worry - you'll grow out of it eventually.
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