Morally Speaking, What Are Humans?

Is there such thing as a good person? Absolutely not! Even the best person thinks the wickedest things if they are honest. Here is Holy Writ says,

Is man basically good or basically evil?

• Ecclesiastes 7:29 - "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."
• Romans 5:7-8 - For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
• Romans 5:12,19 - through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned... through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners.

Are people good deep down?

• Mark 7:21-23 - "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." (c.f. Matthew 15:19)
• Psalm 5:9 - There is nothing reliable in what they say; their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?

Heart (Hardened, Deceitful)

• Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
• Ecclesiastes 9:3 - the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

Mind (Depraved)

• Romans 1:28-31 - And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being... without understanding
• Titus 1:15-16 - to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

Will/Choosing (Enslaved)

• John 8:34 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
• 2 Peter 2:19 - by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
• Titus 3:3 - For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

Can men change themselves or still do good when they want to?

• Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
• Job 11:12 - An idiot will become intelligent when the foal of a wild donkey is born a man.
• 1 Samuel 24:13 - "As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes forth wickedness'"

The truth is that man is so morally corrupt he is unable to choose God or even perform one perfect deed. Mankind loves sin as our society clearly shows. All one has to do is turn on the tv to see the vilest things celebrated.

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"] A flawed human being. Teenaged

I'll be frank with you, I've been a thief, liar, fornicator, coveter of my neighbor. However I do not believe that I will be severely punished for these things. Second_Rook

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"] No, not unless you made a habit of it. It I gave you some money out of nothing but generosity, would you think I were a good person? Crushmaster

Regardless, either doing an act assigns you the adjective describing one who does that act, or it doesn't. And either way, that destroys your argument.

[QUOTE="Second_Rook"] I'll be frank with you, I've been a thief, liar, fornicator, coveter of my neighbor. However I do not believe that I will be severely punished for these things. Crushmaster

Cool. Now all that is left for you to show is not only that God exists, but also that that god is the god of Christianity. :)

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]
Yes, of course; but I'm looking for a more specific answer.

What would you call me if I told a lie?

Lansdowne5

I cant give you a number.

@fatzebra: Your argument is an ad hominem attack -- which is illogical in itself.Lansdowne5

The meaning of 'murderer' is different, because of the magnitude of just one murder. Funky_Llama

Regardless, either doing an act assigns you the adjective describing one who does that act, or it doesn't. And either way, that destroys your argument. Funky

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]

[QUOTE="Second_Rook"] I'll be frank with you, I've been a thief, liar, fornicator, coveter of my neighbor. However I do not believe that I will be severely punished for these things. chessmaster1989

Cool. Now all that is left for you to show is not only that God exists, but also that that god is the god of Christianity. :)

Can men of themselves accept God's gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?

• John 3:27 - John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven."
• John 14:16 - "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him
• John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
• John 6:44 & 64 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
• Romans 9:16 - So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
• Romans 11:35-36 - Or who has first given to [the Lord] that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
• 1 Corinthians 1:30 - But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus
• Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Is there such thing as a good person? Absolutely not! Even the best person thinks the wickedest things if they are honest. Here is Holy Writ says,

Is man basically good or basically evil?

• Ecclesiastes 7:29 - "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."
• Romans 5:7-8 - For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
• Romans 5:12,19 - through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned... through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners.

Are people good deep down?

• Mark 7:21-23 - "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." (c.f. Matthew 15:19)
• Psalm 5:9 - There is nothing reliable in what they say; their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?

Heart (Hardened, Deceitful)

• Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
• Ecclesiastes 9:3 - the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

Mind (Depraved)

• Romans 1:28-31 - And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being... without understanding
• Titus 1:15-16 - to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

Will/Choosing (Enslaved)

• John 8:34 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
• 2 Peter 2:19 - by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
• Titus 3:3 - For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

Can men change themselves or still do good when they want to?

• Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
• Job 11:12 - An idiot will become intelligent when the foal of a wild donkey is born a man.
• 1 Samuel 24:13 - "As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes forth wickedness'"

The truth is that man is so morally corrupt he is unable to choose God or even perform one perfect deed. Mankind loves sin as our society clearly shows. All one has to do is turn on the tv to see the vilest things celebrated.

maheo30

[QUOTE="maheo30"]

...

Crushmaster

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]@fatzebra: Your argument is an ad hominem attack -- which is illogical in itself.Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]@fatzebra: Your argument is an ad hominem attack -- which is illogical in itself.Lansdowne5

This - "Using logic towards a Christian is like painting a picture for a blind person. Totally pointless." - is an ad hominem attack.Lansdowne5

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]
I am afraid you are wrong.

God is a righteous, holy God. He must punish sin. Look at this:
(Revelation 21:8 )- "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10)- "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, {10} Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

maheo30

Cool. Now all that is left for you to show is not only that God exists, but also that that god is the god of Christianity. :)

Can men of themselves accept God's gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?

• John 3:27 - John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven."
• John 14:16 - "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him
• John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
• John 6:44 & 64 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
• Romans 9:16 - So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
• Romans 11:35-36 - Or who has first given to [the Lord] that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
• 1 Corinthians 1:30 - But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus
• Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Cool story bro. Next time try a real argument instead of an ad hominem attack :).

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] This - "Using logic towards a Christian is like painting a picture for a blind person. Totally pointless." - is an ad hominem attack.Crushmaster

[QUOTE="maheo30"]

Is there such thing as a good person? Absolutely not! Even the best person thinks the wickedest things if they are honest. Here is Holy Writ says,

Is man basically good or basically evil?

• Ecclesiastes 7:29 - "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."
• Romans 5:7-8 - For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
• Romans 5:12,19 - through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned... through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners.

Are people good deep down?

• Mark 7:21-23 - "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." (c.f. Matthew 15:19)
• Psalm 5:9 - There is nothing reliable in what they say; their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?

Heart (Hardened, Deceitful)

• Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
• Ecclesiastes 9:3 - the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

Mind (Depraved)

• Romans 1:28-31 - And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being... without understanding
• Titus 1:15-16 - to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

Will/Choosing (Enslaved)

• John 8:34 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
• 2 Peter 2:19 - by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
• Titus 3:3 - For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

Can men change themselves or still do good when they want to?

• Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
• Job 11:12 - An idiot will become intelligent when the foal of a wild donkey is born a man.
• 1 Samuel 24:13 - "As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes forth wickedness'"

The truth is that man is so morally corrupt he is unable to choose God or even perform one perfect deed. Mankind loves sin as our society clearly shows. All one has to do is turn on the tv to see the vilest things celebrated.

Crushmaster

I don't know, a good Tolkien novel (Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, The Silmarilion, etc.) is much more interesting and about as true. :)

[QUOTE="maheo30"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Cool. Now all that is left for you to show is not only that God exists, but also that that god is the god of Christianity. :)

chessmaster1989

Can men of themselves accept God's gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?

• John 3:27 - John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven."
• John 14:16 - "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him
• John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
• John 6:44 & 64 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
• Romans 9:16 - So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
• Romans 11:35-36 - Or who has first given to [the Lord] that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
• 1 Corinthians 1:30 - But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus
• Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Cool story bro. Next time try a real argument instead of an ad hominem attack :).

Cool story bro. Next time try a real argument instead of an ad hominem attack :). chessmaster1989

[QUOTE="maheo30"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Cool. Now all that is left for you to show is not only that God exists, but also that that god is the god of Christianity. :)

Can men of themselves accept God's gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?

• John 3:27 - John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven."
• John 14:16 - "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him
• John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
• John 6:44 & 64 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
• Romans 9:16 - So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
• Romans 11:35-36 - Or who has first given to [the Lord] that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
• 1 Corinthians 1:30 - But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus
• Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Cool story bro. Next time try a real argument instead of an ad hominem attack :).

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="maheo30"] Wouldn't matter if he did. The unregenerate person is unable to accept God. Here ya go,

Can men of themselves accept God's gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?

• John 3:27 - John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven."
• John 14:16 - "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him
• John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
• John 6:44 & 64 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
• Romans 9:16 - So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
• Romans 11:35-36 - Or who has first given to [the Lord] that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
• 1 Corinthians 1:30 - But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus
• Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Teenaged

Cool story bro. Next time try a real argument instead of an ad hominem attack :).

If these discussions weren't continually ironic, I would have taken the time to point that out...

I wouldnt call you a liar by just saying one lie. Teenaged

What happened to the discussion from yesterday? I can't find a conclusion.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"] Cool story bro. Next time try a real argument instead of an ad hominem attack :). Crushmaster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

He did not address my request for proof, of even any god. He merely stated that I would not accept proof even if shown to me.

If you don't think that's ad hominem... :lol:

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="maheo30"] Wouldn't matter if he did. The unregenerate person is unable to accept God. Here ya go,

maheo30

Cool story bro. Next time try a real argument instead of an ad hominem attack :).

That is most certainly ad hominem. Don't deny it. Denying it is about as stupid as BR denying his own insults.

What happened to the discussion from yesterday? I can't find a conclusion.

Zagrius

Don't worry, these threads never reach any form of conclusion. It's hard to convince people when they won't listen to a word you are saying :).

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"] Cool story bro. Next time try a real argument instead of an ad hominem attack :). chessmaster1989

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

He did not address my request for proof, of even any god. He merely stated that I would not accept proof even if shown to me.

If you don't think that's ad hominem... :lol:

The evil that lies in man is a curse from Adam and Eve that is passed down to their descendants. All humans are descendants and whether you like it or not we are all cursed from Adam and Eves wrong doing. Make of that what you will, but that is why humans behave the way they do, it's apart of our nature but we choose whether we want to do good or evil things in this world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Hedid not address my request for proof, of even any god. He merely stated that I would not accept proof even if shown to me.

If you don't think that's ad hominem... :lol: chessmaster1989

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]
Could you please explain exactly how that was an ad hominem attack?

maheo30

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

He did not address my request for proof, of even any god. He merely stated that I would not accept proof even if shown to me.

If you don't think that's ad hominem... :lol:

Okay, mate, you are, of course, free to believe whatever you want. I cannot stop you from believing whatever you want, no matter how ludicrous I might think it.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"] I wouldnt call you a liar by just saying one lie. Crushmaster

Apart from that even in killing there are circumstances. Like self-defense.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Hedid not address my request for proof, of even any god. He merely stated that I would not accept proof even if shown to me.

If you don't think that's ad hominem... :lol: Crushmaster

He presented a Bible verse in response to me asking for proof of God... :lol: He did not attempt to prove any form of god exists. He did not attempt to even prove that any form of god must exist. He merely assumed his religion to be true.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Hedid not address my request for proof, of even any god. He merely stated that I would not accept proof even if shown to me.

If you don't think that's ad hominem... :lol: Crushmaster

I think the new guidelines say specifically to not present personal opinions as facts.

Don't worry, these threads never reach any form of conclusion. It's hard to convince people when they won't listen to a word you are saying :).

chessmaster1989

[QUOTE="maheo30"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

He did not address my request for proof, of even any god. He merely stated that I would not accept proof even if shown to me.

If you don't think that's ad hominem... :lol:

Okay, mate, you are, of course, free to believe whatever you want. I cannot stop you from believing whatever you want, no matter how ludicrous I might think it.

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Hedid not address my request for proof, of even any god. He merely stated that I would not accept proof even if shown to me.

If you don't think that's ad hominem... :lol: Teenaged

I think the new guidelines say specifically to not present personal opinions as facts.

:lol: don't forget, Teenaged, it's undeniably the word of God, so it must be true :lol:

He presented a Bible verse in response to me asking for proof of God... :lol: He did not attempt to prove any form of god exists. He did not attempt to even prove that any form of god must exist. He merely assumed his religion to be true. chessmaster1989

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="maheo30"] I'm sorry you don't like historical christian doctrine but that is the truth. It is called the Doctrine of Man's Total Depravity. It states that mankind is so depraved morally and loves sin so much he is unable to accept God. That is what the church has taught for 2000 years. You want to call it an attack that is not my problem.

maheo30

Okay, mate, you are, of course, free to believe whatever you want. I cannot stop you from believing whatever you want, no matter how ludicrous I might think it.

Irrelevant. I never stated anything of the kind. Stop putting words in my mouth.

But, my response was to your statement that I would not accept proof of God even were it shown to me. Stop misrepresenting my statements.

Telling lies and killing are completely different things. I hate gross equalisations. Teenaged

Apart from that even in killing there are circumstances. Like self-defense. Teenaged

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"] He presented a Bible verse in response to me asking for proof of God... :lol: He did not attempt to prove any form of god exists. He did not attempt to even prove that any form of god must exist. He merely assumed his religion to be true. Crushmaster

The fact that it was an attack upon my person does. I asked him for any kind of evidence that god existed. He responded by attacking me. That is the very definition of ad hominem. :|

[QUOTE="Teenaged"] Telling lies and killing are completely different things. I hate gross equalisations. Crushmaster

Apart from that even in killing there are circumstances. Like self-defense. Teenaged

I'm pretty sure the commandment was "Thou shalt not kill." Said nothing about murder...

The fact that it was an attack upon my person does. I asked him for any kind of evidence that god existed. He responded by attacking me. That is the very definition of ad hominem. :| chessmaster1989

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]
...And he then presented evidence as to why you wouldn't.

chessmaster1989

I think the new guidelines say specifically to not present personal opinions as facts.

:lol: don't forget, Teenaged, it's undeniably the word of God, so it must be true :lol:

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"] The fact that it was an attack upon my person does. I asked him for any kind of evidence that god existed. He responded by attacking me. That is the very definition of ad hominem. :| Crushmaster

Presenting "evidence" from scripture in a discussion pertaining to the existence of god is kind of hilarious... just throwing that out there...

I'm pretty sure the commandment was "Thou shalt not kill." Said nothing about murder...chessmaster1989

[QUOTE="Teenaged"] Telling lies and killing are completely different things. I hate gross equalisations. Crushmaster

Apart from that even in killing there are circumstances. Like self-defense. Teenaged

Do you consider murder, stealing and lying to be in the same level of severity?

I'm pretty sure the commandment was "Thou shalt not kill." Said nothing about murder...

chessmaster1989

Presenting "evidence" from scripture in a discussion pertaining to the existence of god is kind of hilarious... just throwing that out there...chessmaster1989

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]Evidence?

I think the new guidelines say specifically to not present personal opinions as facts.

Crushmaster

:lol: don't forget, Teenaged, it's undeniably the word of God, so it must be true :lol:

Like I said to maheo already, Crush, you are, of course, free to believe whatever you want. I cannot make you believe anything, nor can anyone else. Since you, maheo, and lans seem unwilling to even remotely question the existence of God, since you attempted to offer no proof at all when I requested proof for the existence of God, and since there have been ad hominem attacks in place of evidence, I feel there is no reason for me to continue posting in this thread.

In any case, I hope you have found happiness in your life worshipping your god. I can assure you that I have found happiness in a life without god.

My best wishes to you.