until Isreal is ready to actually bring a reasonable negotiation to the table nothing will ever progress, The first thing they need to do is stop settlement expansion. over 200 houses were green lit in settlements. How can you reasonably negotiate when one side is already helping themselves to the land you're negotiating? So on the terms of pure goverment standings you do not think that all the sides do not have too much blood on their hands to shake and actually trust each other? Also that even if say hamas and Israel both did a genuine proceedings, that there isn't enough bad blood on both sides for an outside influence to easily refuel the fire? That is the problem. I do not think the sides are "ever" ready to talk genuine peace when all sides are. It seems when a hand there is extended it is bitten. Vice versa as well. For that.. there is blame but it is on both sides. But blame will not keep people from getting killed on both sides either who have never raised a weapon to the other. oh and as for bad blood I'm not sure, I'm pretty sure it'll be the coldest peace known in history. soccer matches would end in huge fights on and off the field. but IDk right now its just easier to think about whats happening now in the process than to worry about if an external force can mess things up. its exremly uncertian true but somehow its got to end.[QUOTE="mayceV"][QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"] I sadly say that is a part of the bigger issue of people holding entire countries abroad totally responsible and for any and all military or harmful humanitarian efforts by default. I think in general the people without rockets or munitions are the ones who would really like for it all to stop from all sides. However I would also account that haman or hezbullah are equal to the IDF in goals. The effects from them all are not equal, but that does not mean that the lesser bloody hand is only covered in less blood due to lack of equal resources. Least that is my view. Which also leads me to the maybe biased assumption that none of this will ever stop. CreasianDevaili
Multiple terrorist attacks in Israel; use RPG's and mortars. Seven dead.
This topic is locked from further discussion.
so you support the sentence" lets stop the terrorists."? good so do I and I'm pretty sure everyone in the world would. its the actions that are being argued and Isreal Isn't exactly a clean white lamb.Ok nice isreal wants to keep its state from being isolated overrun and what not, then hurry up and start the negotiation... the PLO stated if isreal was to halt settlement expansion then negotiations would be possible. but no it took half the world to pressure the PLO to go into negotiations ( currently overseen by tony blair I think) to negotiate with Isreal even if isreal is already helping themselves to what's being negotiated. these negotiations overseen by tony blair aren't even getting anywhere. After 20 years of failed negotiations I'm suprised the PLO didn't give up on ever comeing up with an agreement with isreal. Isreal is holding up everything and prolonging this occupation for God knows what reason. Not the PLO, Not hamas or extremists but isreal themselves, If they are willing to recognize that palestinians are indeed human beings then the problem is solved. Yes I do. And judging by your post I'm not sure you're aware that negotiations are DEFINITELY over. The PLO are going to the UN in September to get unilateral recognition of Palestine. And the only reason they are "prolonging the occupation" is because they don't want to give up East Jerusalem, Har Homa and a few other pieces of land (which I understand). They know there is no chance of the PLO willing to negotiate EJ and a few other stragetically important bits of land vital for Israel's security. If the PLO said they would be willing to give up EJ and strategic land I'm sure negotiations would be back on and they could reach a compromise. you think its only about EJ? really? how about the millions of people tha have right of return? I have right of return to Yehud, my family also has the deeds to about 37 acres worth of land which is a lot in a small country like Isreal. Isreal fears that every single palestinian will return to Isreal and make it an arab country rather than a jewish one. Also heads up No one but america recognized EJ as a part of Isreal... the world court even deeemed the annexing of EJ as "null and void" Its right of return thas the big problem. also the UN bid isn't gaurenteed to do anything The PLO stated that negotiations will commence afterwards.[QUOTE="mayceV"][QUOTE="CannedWorms"]I support the reasoning behind the operations but not the 'collateral damage'. Two different things. I always look at '3rd party" sources, in that the figures I posted was from a third party source (Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center).CannedWorms
FUBAR situation that the US should not be supporting either side of the conflict unquestioningly.. The US gains nothing from it politically or economically, and its a liability.. You should never support any country out there unquestioningably.. Especially one like Israel who is as much the aggresor as they are the victim in this conflict.sSubZerOo
i disagree. i think there is only one side the US can support and that is isreal which is both a political and economic gain. maybe when the palestinians get rid of the terrorist organization they elected into power a real peaceful 2-state solution can exist.
[QUOTE="Wasdie"]"Without achieving their goal"...actually, Israel has a very good ratio at "achieving their goals". Responding to attacks with an offensive always works for Israel. It lets their enemies know who that they can't win. See: a halt in 10+ years of rocket attacks from Gaza after Cast Lead. If they didn't do anything then their enemies would think they could get away with anything and thus more attacks.Watch Israel's response be massive and leads to tons of collateral damage without actually achieving their goal thus breeding more terrorists. You think they would have learned by now.
CannedWorms
Israel can turn the rocket attacks on and off like a spigot. The attacks will resume as soon as Israel needs an excuse to commit further depredations against the Palestinians. Originally created to weaken Yasser Arafat and divide the Palestinians against one another, Hamas' main purpose nowadays is to give Israel a casus belli whenever it needs one.
See: Hamas is a Creation of Mossad
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]FUBAR situation that the US should not be supporting either side of the conflict unquestioningly.. The US gains nothing from it politically or economically, and its a liability.. You should never support any country out there unquestioningably.. Especially one like Israel who is as much the aggresor as they are the victim in this conflict.ItalStallion777
i disagree. i think there is only one side the US can support and that is isreal which is both a political and economic gain. maybe when the palestinians get rid of the terrorist organization they elected into power a real peaceful 2-state solution can exist.
That is the problem but no one wants to say it here.....
[QUOTE="ItalStallion777"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]FUBAR situation that the US should not be supporting either side of the conflict unquestioningly.. The US gains nothing from it politically or economically, and its a liability.. You should never support any country out there unquestioningably.. Especially one like Israel who is as much the aggresor as they are the victim in this conflict.LJS9502_basic
i disagree. i think there is only one side the US can support and that is isreal which is both a political and economic gain. maybe when the palestinians get rid of the terrorist organization they elected into power a real peaceful 2-state solution can exist.
That is the problem but no one wants to say it here..... It is definitely a problem and the Palestinians need to remove Hamas from power, but it is not only the Palestinians who are to blame for the lack of a peaceful solution.[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]FUBAR situation that the US should not be supporting either side of the conflict unquestioningly.. The US gains nothing from it politically or economically, and its a liability.. You should never support any country out there unquestioningably.. Especially one like Israel who is as much the aggresor as they are the victim in this conflict.ItalStallion777
i disagree. i think there is only one side the US can support and that is isreal which is both a political and economic gain. maybe when the palestinians get rid of the terrorist organization they elected into power a real peaceful 2-state solution can exist.
.. No it isn't.. Its a economic and political sink hole.. We depend off of Arab countries for resources far more than we ever did Israel.. Furthermore you make it sound like this is one sided.. The Israeli government is preventing a two state solution right now as much as the terrorist organizations.. You know you have problems when you must compare the government to a terrorist group to some how make them look alittle bit better.. There is no reason why the US should unquestioningly support any one.. Especially one like Israel that has a large track record of violating International laws, human rights, and other such things.. If you read about the countries history you will realize they are as much the aggressor as the victim.. The difference is in this conflict that have always had the advantage for the past 40 years with West backing and superior military forces.. Palesitinians on the other hand have only been recognized internationally by the 90s.. In the end there is no reason why we should unquestioningly support Israel or any side for that matter.. It is only prolonging the conflict, because with said shield Israel can continue its hardliner policies..
[QUOTE="mayceV"]Sorry but uhhh if you support any military opperation like cast lead or what happened in Jenin simply due to the results, makes It hard to believe you dettest the killing of civilians jenin was a straigh up massacre nothing more nothing less, sure they killed 40 hamas officials however they killed so many civilains and destroyed the entire refugee camp and blew down houses knowing people were inside. don't believe the isreali hed count look at 3rd party ones such as.. the name escapes me but it was a british NGO that re affirmed that Jenin was indeed a massacre. So if you're against killing civilians then you should be horrified at isreal's responses to threats.CannedWormsI support the reasoning behind the operations but not the 'collateral damage'. Two different things. I always look at '3rd party" sources, in that the figures I posted was from a third party source (Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center).
Isn't that the same reasoning that Hamas and others are using? Keep pushing us and we will push back. You can't trample over us without some consequences. So are you ok with their reasoning?
BTW the casualties for operation Cast Lead was 13 to 1300.
In other words (1=10): Israeli deaths:1 1
Palestinian deaths:1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
of course that's not counting the property damage. And you really can't see the the reason why there is a circle of violence? Take of the blinders.
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="ItalStallion777"]That is the problem but no one wants to say it here..... It is definitely a problem and the Palestinians need to remove Hamas from power, but it is not only the Palestinians who are to blame for the lack of a peaceful solution.i disagree. i think there is only one side the US can support and that is isreal which is both a political and economic gain. maybe when the palestinians get rid of the terrorist organization they elected into power a real peaceful 2-state solution can exist.
chessmaster1989
The difference is this.. The Palestnians have never been in a position of advantage.. They are poor, disenfranchised and other such things.. The leadership is become a darwinian example in which the most vicious and extreme have taken hold.. People like to claim its because this extremism is why there is problem.. No other way around the leadership is extreme because of the position they have been in so long.. The only time things are going to change is when the said party in advantage, Israel, makes steps to change.. They have not, even the most remote thing like givng up land was due to the threat of large international pressure.. In the end of the day we shouldn't unconditionally support Israel or any side.. Our aid and protection for Israel should be based around following policies we want.. And if they don't like it, they are free to go their own way with out our support..
[QUOTE="ItalStallion777"]
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]FUBAR situation that the US should not be supporting either side of the conflict unquestioningly.. The US gains nothing from it politically or economically, and its a liability.. You should never support any country out there unquestioningably.. Especially one like Israel who is as much the aggresor as they are the victim in this conflict.sSubZerOo
i disagree. i think there is only one side the US can support and that is isreal which is both a political and economic gain. maybe when the palestinians get rid of the terrorist organization they elected into power a real peaceful 2-state solution can exist.
.. No it isn't.. Its a economic and political sink hole.. We depend off of Arab countries for resources far more than we ever did Israel.. Furthermore you make it sound like this is one sided.. The Israeli government is preventing a two state solution right now as much as the terrorist organizations.. You know you have problems when you must compare the government to a terrorist group to some how make them look alittle bit better.. There is no reason why the US should unquestioningly support any one.. Especially one like Israel that has a large track record of violating International laws, human rights, and other such things.. If you read about the countries history you will realize they are as much the aggressor as the victim.. The difference is in this conflict that have always had the advantage for the past 40 years with West backing and superior military forces.. Palesitinians on the other hand have only been recognized internationally by the 90s.. In the end there is no reason why we should unquestioningly support Israel or any side for that matter.. It is only prolonging the conflict, because with said shield Israel can continue its hardliner policies..
Not sure where you get the sink hole idea from but Israel is one of the better developed countries in the ME. As for politics....that depends one's own personal agenda. Considering the only thing wanted from most of the ME countries....including allies is our continued dependency on their oil which funds their countries and foreign aid here and there......I'm not sure why that would be considered a positive.I'm also not sure why you are condemning Israel for human rights violations while other countries in the ME act in ways the west...or International Law is against. Seems a one sided approach TBH....
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="ItalStallion777"]That is the problem but no one wants to say it here..... It is definitely a problem and the Palestinians need to remove Hamas from power, but it is not only the Palestinians who are to blame for the lack of a peaceful solution. Yes but as long as Hamas remains there....no pressure will be put on Israel. So if Hamas is removed then, too, is the justification. That is unless something else develops...but I'm going with progressive events unfold.i disagree. i think there is only one side the US can support and that is isreal which is both a political and economic gain. maybe when the palestinians get rid of the terrorist organization they elected into power a real peaceful 2-state solution can exist.
chessmaster1989
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]
[QUOTE="ItalStallion777"]
i disagree. i think there is only one side the US can support and that is isreal which is both a political and economic gain. maybe when the palestinians get rid of the terrorist organization they elected into power a real peaceful 2-state solution can exist.
LJS9502_basic
.. No it isn't.. Its a economic and political sink hole.. We depend off of Arab countries for resources far more than we ever did Israel.. Furthermore you make it sound like this is one sided.. The Israeli government is preventing a two state solution right now as much as the terrorist organizations.. You know you have problems when you must compare the government to a terrorist group to some how make them look alittle bit better.. There is no reason why the US should unquestioningly support any one.. Especially one like Israel that has a large track record of violating International laws, human rights, and other such things.. If you read about the countries history you will realize they are as much the aggressor as the victim.. The difference is in this conflict that have always had the advantage for the past 40 years with West backing and superior military forces.. Palesitinians on the other hand have only been recognized internationally by the 90s.. In the end there is no reason why we should unquestioningly support Israel or any side for that matter.. It is only prolonging the conflict, because with said shield Israel can continue its hardliner policies..
Not sure where you get the sink hole idea from but Israel is one of the better developed countries in the ME. As for politics....that depends one's own personal agenda. Considering the only thing wanted from most of the ME countries....including allies is our continued dependency on their oil which funds their countries and foreign aid here and there......I'm not sure why that would be considered a positive.I'm also not sure why you are condemning Israel for human rights violations while other countries in the ME act in ways the west...or International Law is against. Seems a one sided approach TBH....
The difference is we are protecting them in every way possible and the said countries are demonized.. Strategically we are not gaining anything from Israel's alliance.. And if the US government really cared about people, there would be so many more ventures in aiding people around the world that does not require taking sides or military arming.. I am all for not supporting Saudi ARabia for instance, but we are at least gaining something through them in oil.. We are not in Israel.. And we are covering Israel mor ethan any other country in the world.. IN the end of the day.. Our Aid should be based upon whether Israel meets our requirements.. Not the other way around.. Where Aid is given so maybe they may reach our requirements bu thtey never do.. Pakistan is more or less in the same situation..
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]
[QUOTE="ItalStallion777"]
i disagree. i think there is only one side the US can support and that is isreal which is both a political and economic gain. maybe when the palestinians get rid of the terrorist organization they elected into power a real peaceful 2-state solution can exist.
LJS9502_basic
.. No it isn't.. Its a economic and political sink hole.. We depend off of Arab countries for resources far more than we ever did Israel.. Furthermore you make it sound like this is one sided.. The Israeli government is preventing a two state solution right now as much as the terrorist organizations.. You know you have problems when you must compare the government to a terrorist group to some how make them look alittle bit better.. There is no reason why the US should unquestioningly support any one.. Especially one like Israel that has a large track record of violating International laws, human rights, and other such things.. If you read about the countries history you will realize they are as much the aggressor as the victim.. The difference is in this conflict that have always had the advantage for the past 40 years with West backing and superior military forces.. Palesitinians on the other hand have only been recognized internationally by the 90s.. In the end there is no reason why we should unquestioningly support Israel or any side for that matter.. It is only prolonging the conflict, because with said shield Israel can continue its hardliner policies..
Not sure where you get the sink hole idea from but Israel is one of the better developed countries in the ME. As for politics....that depends one's own personal agenda. Considering the only thing wanted from most of the ME countries....including allies is our continued dependency on their oil which funds their countries and foreign aid here and there......I'm not sure why that would be considered a positive.I'm also not sure why you are condemning Israel for human rights violations while other countries in the ME act in ways the west...or International Law is against. Seems a one sided approach TBH....
I would think because the U.S. is supporting Israel, as has been said already.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Not sure where you get the sink hole idea from but Israel is one of the better developed countries in the ME. As for politics....that depends one's own personal agenda. Considering the only thing wanted from most of the ME countries....including allies is our continued dependency on their oil which funds their countries and foreign aid here and there......I'm not sure why that would be considered a positive.[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]
.. No it isn't.. Its a economic and political sink hole.. We depend off of Arab countries for resources far more than we ever did Israel.. Furthermore you make it sound like this is one sided.. The Israeli government is preventing a two state solution right now as much as the terrorist organizations.. You know you have problems when you must compare the government to a terrorist group to some how make them look alittle bit better.. There is no reason why the US should unquestioningly support any one.. Especially one like Israel that has a large track record of violating International laws, human rights, and other such things.. If you read about the countries history you will realize they are as much the aggressor as the victim.. The difference is in this conflict that have always had the advantage for the past 40 years with West backing and superior military forces.. Palesitinians on the other hand have only been recognized internationally by the 90s.. In the end there is no reason why we should unquestioningly support Israel or any side for that matter.. It is only prolonging the conflict, because with said shield Israel can continue its hardliner policies..
BranKetra
I'm also not sure why you are condemning Israel for human rights violations while other countries in the ME act in ways the west...or International Law is against. Seems a one sided approach TBH....
I would think because the U.S. is supporting Israel. We also give foreign aid to other countries in the ME.....[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Not sure where you get the sink hole idea from but Israel is one of the better developed countries in the ME. As for politics....that depends one's own personal agenda. Considering the only thing wanted from most of the ME countries....including allies is our continued dependency on their oil which funds their countries and foreign aid here and there......I'm not sure why that would be considered a positive.I would think because the U.S. is supporting Israel. We also give foreign aid to other countries in the ME..... We don't support any other country in the ME to the extent we support Israel, not even close.I'm also not sure why you are condemning Israel for human rights violations while other countries in the ME act in ways the west...or International Law is against. Seems a one sided approach TBH....
LJS9502_basic
Several countries come close and according to this get more money.We don't support any other country in the ME to the extent we support Israel, not even close.
chessmaster1989
[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Not sure where you get the sink hole idea from but Israel is one of the better developed countries in the ME. As for politics....that depends one's own personal agenda. Considering the only thing wanted from most of the ME countries....including allies is our continued dependency on their oil which funds their countries and foreign aid here and there......I'm not sure why that would be considered a positive.I would think because the U.S. is supporting Israel. We also give foreign aid to other countries in the ME.....Sure, but to the scale of Israel?I'm also not sure why you are condemning Israel for human rights violations while other countries in the ME act in ways the west...or International Law is against. Seems a one sided approach TBH....
LJS9502_basic
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="ItalStallion777"]That is the problem but no one wants to say it here..... It is definitely a problem and the Palestinians need to remove Hamas from power, but it is not only the Palestinians who are to blame for the lack of a peaceful solution.i disagree. i think there is only one side the US can support and that is isreal which is both a political and economic gain. maybe when the palestinians get rid of the terrorist organization they elected into power a real peaceful 2-state solution can exist.
chessmaster1989
You guys do realize that Hamas only controls the Gaza Strip and not the larger West Bank, right? What do you guys thinks about the developments in the West Bank?
We also give foreign aid to other countries in the ME.....Sure, but to the scale of Israel?Yes we do......[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="BranKetra"] I would think because the U.S. is supporting Israel.BranKetra
Several countries come close and according to this Bahrain gets more money. Is money the only thing that the U.S. gives these countries?[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
We don't support any other country in the ME to the extent we support Israel, not even close.
LJS9502_basic
[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
We don't support any other country in the ME to the extent we support Israel, not even close.
Several countries come close and according to this Bahrain gets more money. Am I misreading or are you confusing billions and millions?Several countries come close and according to this Bahrain gets more money. Um... I think you should read that map a little closer. No one comes close to the amount of money we give to Israel.[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
We don't support any other country in the ME to the extent we support Israel, not even close.
LJS9502_basic
Is money the only thing that the U.S. gives these countries? BranKetraAid is aid. That is the cost of aid. As you can see it's not as one sided as OT makes it out to be. The US supports many countries in the ME.
Um... I think you should read that map a little closer. No one comes close to the amount of money we give to Israel.EsYuGeeAfghanistan/Pakistan according to that map are getting more.....and several countries are getting comparable amounts...as in...not small amounts.
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Several countries come close and according to this Bahrain gets more money. Um... I think you should read that map a little closer. No one comes close to the amount of money we give to Israel. Egypt gets 1.55 billion.[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
We don't support any other country in the ME to the extent we support Israel, not even close.
EsYuGee
[QUOTE="EsYuGee"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Several countries come close and according to this Bahrain gets more money.Um... I think you should read that map a little closer. No one comes close to the amount of money we give to Israel. Afghanistan according to that map is getting more.....and several countries are getting comparable amounts...as in...not small amounts. Afghanistan and Pakistan get so much because we're in a war over there. Which countries get comparable amounts? Why do we give so much to Israel?LJS9502_basic
That is disheartening news. :[ I hope justice is served for this act.
Several countries come close and according to this Bahrain gets more money.[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
We don't support any other country in the ME to the extent we support Israel, not even close.
LJS9502_basic
According to that, Bahrain gets 20.8 million while Israel gets 2.8 billion...
And it's not just about financial aid (by the way, whereas a lot of countries in the ME get aid related to non-military purposes (some get aid related to the military), Israel's funding is almost entirely for the military). When was the last time you heard a US politician say they will support Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or any other ME country besides Israel in just about anything they do? Because unconditional support of Israel seems fairly common in the US.
Afghanistan and Pakistan get so much because we're in a war over there. Which countries get comparable amounts? Why do we give so much to Israel?Well no.....military expenditures are not included in Foreign Aid.EsYuGee
Several countries come close and according to this Bahrain gets more money.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]
[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
We don't support any other country in the ME to the extent we support Israel, not even close.
chessmaster1989
According to that, Bahrain gets 20.8 million while Israel gets 2.8 billion...
And it's not just about financial aid (by the way, whereas a lot of countries in the ME get aid related to non-military purposes (some get aid related to the military), Israel's funding is almost entirely for the military). When was the last time you heard a US politician say they will support Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or any other ME country besides Israel in just about anything they do? Because unconditional support of Israel seems fairly common in the US.
That's what I was wondering, too. Sure, aid is aid when talking about money. How much money would it cost for President Obama to get on stage and say "I support Egypt." Not sending more or less money, just saying that. The same goes for politicians who say they support Israel or any other country. It's just talking, but it can be very influential.[QUOTE="EsYuGee"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Several countries come close and according to this Bahrain gets more money.Um... I think you should read that map a little closer. No one comes close to the amount of money we give to Israel. Egypt gets 1.55 billion.BranKetra
Egypt gets about 55% of what Israel gets. And the main reason we do that is because of Suez and to keep then friends with Israel. We only started giving them that much when they signed a peace treaty with Israel.
As I stated above I typed the wrong country in because it was the last one I read and it stuck in my mind. I'm tired. Two countries get more...and one gets comparable. So stating we give Israel more foreign aid is incorrect.According to that, Bahrain gets 20.8 million while Israel gets 2.8 billion...
And it's not just about financial aid (by the way, whereas a lot of countries in the ME get aid related to non-military purposes (some get aid related to the military), Israel's funding is almost entirely for the military). When was the last time you heard a US politician say they will support Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or any other ME country besides Israel in just about anything they do? Because unconditional support of Israel seems fairly common in the US.
chessmaster1989
Once the aid is given the country can do as it wishes. Aid allows allocation of resources within the country to whatever said country wants to fund. So whether the aid is given directly to the military or not...it allows increased funding for a military by not allocating funds for other issues. This is just quibbling over the money given.
What politicians say is immaterial. When is the last time you heard a politician tell the truth about anything?
Well no.....military expenditures are not included in Foreign Aid. Of course I'm not talking about the other billions we spend on the actual war. We're currently nation building in Afghanistan. Why do we give so much aid to Afghanistan and Pakistan?[QUOTE="EsYuGee"]Afghanistan and Pakistan get so much because we're in a war over there. Which countries get comparable amounts? Why do we give so much to Israel?
LJS9502_basic
As I stated above I typed the wrong country in because it was the last one I read and it stuck in my mind. I'm tired. Two countries get more...and one gets comparable. So stating we give Israel more foreign aid is incorrect.[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
According to that, Bahrain gets 20.8 million while Israel gets 2.8 billion...
And it's not just about financial aid (by the way, whereas a lot of countries in the ME get aid related to non-military purposes (some get aid related to the military), Israel's funding is almost entirely for the military). When was the last time you heard a US politician say they will support Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or any other ME country besides Israel in just about anything they do? Because unconditional support of Israel seems fairly common in the US.
LJS9502_basic
What politicians say is immaterial. When is the last time you heard a politician tell the truth about anything?
To you, but not to other people who get influenced by their words.As I stated above I typed the wrong country in because it was the last one I read and it stuck in my mind. I'm tired. Two countries get more...and one gets comparable. So stating we give Israel more foreign aid is incorrect.[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
According to that, Bahrain gets 20.8 million while Israel gets 2.8 billion...
And it's not just about financial aid (by the way, whereas a lot of countries in the ME get aid related to non-military purposes (some get aid related to the military), Israel's funding is almost entirely for the military). When was the last time you heard a US politician say they will support Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or any other ME country besides Israel in just about anything they do? Because unconditional support of Israel seems fairly common in the US.
LJS9502_basic
Once the aid is given the country can do as it wishes. Aid allows allocation of resources within the country to whatever said country wants to fund. So whether the aid is given directly to the military or not...it allows increased funding for a military by not allocating funds for other issues. This is just quibbling over the money given.
What politicians say is immaterial. When is the last time you heard a politician tell the truth about anything?
The general attitude towards a country is completely relevant. Let's say Iran decided to invade Israel, and compare it to what would happen if Iran decided to invade Uzbekistan. I'm betting we'd be much faster to respond with aid for Israel than we would be for Uzbekistan. (note: Iran might not be the best specific example because the US might be more willing to respond to any attack by Iran, but this is just to illustrate a point)[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]As I stated above I typed the wrong country in because it was the last one I read and it stuck in my mind. I'm tired. Two countries get more...and one gets comparable. So stating we give Israel more foreign aid is incorrect.[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
According to that, Bahrain gets 20.8 million while Israel gets 2.8 billion...
And it's not just about financial aid (by the way, whereas a lot of countries in the ME get aid related to non-military purposes (some get aid related to the military), Israel's funding is almost entirely for the military). When was the last time you heard a US politician say they will support Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or any other ME country besides Israel in just about anything they do? Because unconditional support of Israel seems fairly common in the US.
BranKetra
What politicians say is immaterial. When is the last time you heard a politician tell the truth about anything?
To you, but not to other people who get influenced by their words. I don't see most of the world that friendly to the US TBH...so this is a non issue.The general attitude towards a country is completely relevant. Let's say Iran decided to invade Israel, and compare it to what would happen if Iran decided to invade Uzbekistan. I'm betting we'd be much faster to respond with aid for Israel than we would be for Uzbekistan. (note: Iran might not be the best specific example because the US might be more willing to respond to any attack by Iran, but this is just to illustrate a point)chessmaster1989I'm talking reality...not hypotheticals. And the fact of the matter is the US has friendly relations with several ME countries and they get way too much money in Foreign Aid. Particularly when we have this debt problem.
My point was simple.....for those calling for cutting aid to Israel....I expect to see calling for cutting aid to the ME (and other regions but that is beyond the scope of this topic) period. Not picking and choosing who gets the money because of their slant. Politically things are often done for reasons that one....are unknown to the general public whether they consider themselves pollitically savvy or not (and what one considers oneself is not always correct) and two....done for stability reasons within an area because instability could have major repurcussions.
As I stated above I typed the wrong country in because it was the last one I read and it stuck in my mind. I'm tired. Two countries get more...and one gets comparable. So stating we give Israel more foreign aid is incorrect.[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
According to that, Bahrain gets 20.8 million while Israel gets 2.8 billion...
And it's not just about financial aid (by the way, whereas a lot of countries in the ME get aid related to non-military purposes (some get aid related to the military), Israel's funding is almost entirely for the military). When was the last time you heard a US politician say they will support Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or any other ME country besides Israel in just about anything they do? Because unconditional support of Israel seems fairly common in the US.
LJS9502_basic
Once the aid is given the country can do as it wishes. Aid allows allocation of resources within the country to whatever said country wants to fund. So whether the aid is given directly to the military or not...it allows increased funding for a military by not allocating funds for other issues. This is just quibbling over the money given.
What politicians say is immaterial. When is the last time you heard a politician tell the truth about anything?
Excluding Pakistan and Afghanistan because of the reasons I stated earlier, you can add up all of the aid the US gives to ME countries and it still wouldn't equal the aid given to Israel.
In other words:
Egypt+ Saudi Arabia+ Lebanon+Palestine+Morocco+Tunisia+Libya+Yemen+Oman+Jordan+Kuwait+Bahrain+UAE+Qatar is LESS THAN Israeli Aid
So yes we do give Israel more foreign aid. Why is that?
[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]As I stated above I typed the wrong country in because it was the last one I read and it stuck in my mind. I'm tired. Two countries get more...and one gets comparable. So stating we give Israel more foreign aid is incorrect.To you, but not to other people who get influenced by their words. I don't see most of the world that friendly to the US TBH...so this is a non issue. I get that impression often. That doesn't make it a non-issue. I think you misunderstood me when I was talking about politicians. People in America are influenced by American politicians.What politicians say is immaterial. When is the last time you heard a politician tell the truth about anything?
LJS9502_basic
As I stated above I typed the wrong country in because it was the last one I read and it stuck in my mind. I'm tired. Two countries get more...and one gets comparable. So stating we give Israel more foreign aid is incorrect.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]
[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
According to that, Bahrain gets 20.8 million while Israel gets 2.8 billion...
And it's not just about financial aid (by the way, whereas a lot of countries in the ME get aid related to non-military purposes (some get aid related to the military), Israel's funding is almost entirely for the military). When was the last time you heard a US politician say they will support Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or any other ME country besides Israel in just about anything they do? Because unconditional support of Israel seems fairly common in the US.
EsYuGee
Once the aid is given the country can do as it wishes. Aid allows allocation of resources within the country to whatever said country wants to fund. So whether the aid is given directly to the military or not...it allows increased funding for a military by not allocating funds for other issues. This is just quibbling over the money given.
What politicians say is immaterial. When is the last time you heard a politician tell the truth about anything?
Excluding Pakistan and Afghanistan because of the reasons I stated earlier, you can add up all of the aid the US gives to ME countries and it still wouldn't equal the aid given to Israel.
In other words:
Egypt+ Saudi Arabia+ Lebanon+Palestine+Morocco+Tunisia+Libya+Yemen+Oman+Jordan+Kuwait+Bahrain+UAE+Qatar is LESS THAN Israeli Aid
So yes we do give Israel more foreign aid. Why is that?
They are not hostile to the US perhaps?:|And again....I said comparable. And frankly Egypt is comparable. When talking money this large....the .8 billion difference is negligible. As for Afghanistan and Pakistan the aid is not only because of the war. As I said...foreign aid is not the same as money spent for the military.
And to get back to why we give Israel money...it's self interest. We have an established ally in the region where the oil is. So it's not altruistic by any means.
I don't see most of the world that friendly to the US TBH...so this is a non issue. I get that impression often. That doesn't make it a non-issue. I think you misunderstood me when I was talking about politicians. People in America are influenced by American politicians.People in America, though, aren't really that interested in Foreign Aid...in fact...most would be happy if we stopped that I'd wager.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="BranKetra"]To you, but not to other people who get influenced by their words.BranKetra
[QUOTE="EsYuGee"]
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]As I stated above I typed the wrong country in because it was the last one I read and it stuck in my mind. I'm tired. Two countries get more...and one gets comparable. So stating we give Israel more foreign aid is incorrect.
Once the aid is given the country can do as it wishes. Aid allows allocation of resources within the country to whatever said country wants to fund. So whether the aid is given directly to the military or not...it allows increased funding for a military by not allocating funds for other issues. This is just quibbling over the money given.
What politicians say is immaterial. When is the last time you heard a politician tell the truth about anything?
LJS9502_basic
Excluding Pakistan and Afghanistan because of the reasons I stated earlier, you can add up all of the aid the US gives to ME countries and it still wouldn't equal the aid given to Israel.
In other words:
Egypt+ Saudi Arabia+ Lebanon+Palestine+Morocco+Tunisia+Libya+Yemen+Oman+Jordan+Kuwait+Bahrain+UAE+Qatar is LESS THAN Israeli Aid
So yes we do give Israel more foreign aid. Why is that?
They are not hostile to the US perhaps?:|And again....I said comparable. And frankly Egypt is comparable. When talking money this large....the .8 billion difference is negligible. As for Afghanistan and Pakistan the aid is not only because of the war. As I said...foreign aid is not the same as money spent for the military.
And to get back to why we give Israel money...it's self interest. We have an established ally in the region where the oil is. So it's not altruistic by any means.
But that established ally causes us problems with the people in the region that have the oil. We probably also support them because AIPAC has alot of US politicians by the gazongas.
Where do you get .8 from? The difference between Israel and Egypt aid is 1.25 billion. Egypt gets 1.55 billion. That's little more than half of Israel's aid. 50% is not a negligible amount. That is not comparable.
That's my point though. Why do people in the US complain about Israel being their only partner in the ME while not fully fostering their relationship with other countries in the region. Jordan is stable with a pro-Western leader, but we don't give them close to the same privileges. Now is the time to build a good relationship with Egypt, which is perhaps the most influential country in the Arab world. Everyone will have to get over our past support for Mubarak, but taking the first step to a long journey is important. Maybe even Tunisia is a good candidate.
[QUOTE="ItalStallion777"]
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]FUBAR situation that the US should not be supporting either side of the conflict unquestioningly.. The US gains nothing from it politically or economically, and its a liability.. You should never support any country out there unquestioningably.. Especially one like Israel who is as much the aggresor as they are the victim in this conflict.sSubZerOo
i disagree. i think there is only one side the US can support and that is isreal which is both a political and economic gain. maybe when the palestinians get rid of the terrorist organization they elected into power a real peaceful 2-state solution can exist.
.. No it isn't.. Its a economic and political sink hole.. We depend off of Arab countries for resources far more than we ever did Israel.. Furthermore you make it sound like this is one sided.. The Israeli government is preventing a two state solution right now as much as the terrorist organizations.. You know you have problems when you must compare the government to a terrorist group to some how make them look alittle bit better.. There is no reason why the US should unquestioningly support any one.. Especially one like Israel that has a large track record of violating International laws, human rights, and other such things.. If you read about the countries history you will realize they are as much the aggressor as the victim.. The difference is in this conflict that have always had the advantage for the past 40 years with West backing and superior military forces.. Palesitinians on the other hand have only been recognized internationally by the 90s.. In the end there is no reason why we should unquestioningly support Israel or any side for that matter.. It is only prolonging the conflict, because with said shield Israel can continue its hardliner policies..
let me first clarify that i wasn't comparing hamas to a terrorist organization, i was calling it one. don't take my word for it though, you can ask the US, EU, canada, israel, and japan why they also classify it as such.
the US shares both intelligence and equipment with israel which is both of economic and political gain. we keep a valuable and stable democratic ally in the middle east that is committed to both defending itself and fighting terrorism. what other country can that be said about at the moment? in terms of resources palestine has little and the rest of the middle east depends on us buying oil to keep their countries afloat, a solely economic partnership but hardly a friendly one.
i have read about israel's history many times and have not come to the same conclusion that you have. i do see them as the victim more than the aggressor so your statement that i will realize different is false. and i'm glad they have the "advantage" over hamas.
israel is under enormous international pressure to make a deal with this terrorist organization and are resisting to some extent. they will continue to do so until hamas is gone imo.
[QUOTE="BranKetra"]I get that impression often. That doesn't make it a non-issue. I think you misunderstood me when I was talking about politicians. People in America are influenced by American politicians.People in America, though, aren't really that interested in Foreign Aid...in fact...most would be happy if we stopped that I'd wager. They were interested enough to help Japan recently.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I don't see most of the world that friendly to the US TBH...so this is a non issue. LJS9502_basic
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