My Letter to Atheists

[QUOTE="mattisgod01"]

[QUOTE="Krelian-co"]

who worships something that doesn't exists? atheism means you don't worship anything

Victorious_Fize

Well is worshipping something that doesn't exist still worship or just meaningless gestures? An Atheist doesn't beleive god exists so anyone who claims to worship god is actually worshipping nothing and is the act of worshipping nothing still worship?

Its not an old cliche, I'm not saying god doesn't exist, I'm Exploring different ways of viewing the religious debate and hopefully open up new avenues for discussion rather then the same old recycled stuff.

I could careless if you worshiped lawn grass. My problem with religion is that it seems to always stand in the way of advancement in Science. Saying God's choice or divine intervention to explain away mysterys seems kinda narrow minded and childish.

roulettethedog

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] Doesn't matter who said it, still means the same thing. You don't need a religion, more so a "true" religion, to believe in God(s). Most people I know believe in God, and what follows suit is their ways of reaching to him. The overused notion that there are many religious institutions (keyword) proclaiming truth, thus, invalidating them all, is a an argumentation formed in poor taste to me. Religious dogma and authority are ever changing and ever (rightly) challenged. Spirituality however, have not. Here's another colorful quote attributed to Gandhi when he was asked whether he is a Hindu or not: "Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew" As far as my progression goes in my very very poor theological teaching so far, I've come to know, that in both Christianity and Islam, when taken from a certain perspective, every good man will enter heaven, regardless of religion. Although it is true odds are less than likely as differing views and conflicting actions challenges what both said religions constitute as a "good" person. RationalAtheist

People would usually disagree and agree on many things, it is a part of human nature. However, the fine line between working on debunking and proving each is truly a difference. That is why you replied, is it not?

Answers for last paragraph: I don't. I don't. Mostly from people that claims revelation or prophecy. Perhaps and perhaps not, what influences me matters little, its contents is what concerns me, I am indifferent about afterlife.

@mattisgod01: That is commendable. Thank you for your work.

[QUOTE="Krelian-co"]

[QUOTE="mattisgod01"]

How do you worship something that doesn't exist? What makes an act of worship an act of worship and not just pointless meaningless gestures?

mattisgod01

who worships something that doesn't exists? atheism means you don't worship anything

Well is worshipping something that doesn't exist still worship or just meaningless gestures? An Atheist doesn't beleive god exists so anyone who claims to worship god is actually worshipping nothing and is the act of worshipping nothing still worship?

the act of worship is there, wheater the god they worship is real or not, is irrelevant i can worship santa if i want. atheist don't worship anything, how is that not clear?

now the fact that god exists or not has nothing to do with the definition of theists or atheists itself.

and seriously you are trying too hard.

All I have to say is todays "Christians" would have been hung back in the day for all their new takes on religion.

I hate it that every time Science makes a break through, religious nuts come aorund saying God wanted that to happen and he's either just testing our faith or proving his existance because otherwise nothing to weird could have come about.

I can't wait for irrefutable evidence that God is simply made up. His name was used as a system of control when the authority figures in the past were worried about uprisings. IE:Entire population switching from Atheist to Christian, it's simply easier for a king to appoint a head priest at his side and say that God speaks to him and the king relays this message. Avoid a coup and rather then the people hating you they suddenly worship you.

[QUOTE="roulettethedog"]

I could careless if you worshiped lawn grass. My problem with religion is that it seems to always stand in the way of advancement in Science. Saying God's choice or divine intervention to explain away mysterys seems kinda narrow minded and childish.

SaudiFury

you said it yourself, church is against the cloning of human organs and mother and stem cells that could help with a lot of illnesses and transplants needed. How is that not getting in the way of science?

in the same sentence you give a reason and then proceed to deny it? wtf

This one is still going? Religion is fine as is having faith, just keep it out of politics, education and science.

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"][QUOTE="roulettethedog"]

I could careless if you worshiped lawn grass. My problem with religion is that it seems to always stand in the way of advancement in Science. Saying God's choice or divine intervention to explain away mysterys seems kinda narrow minded and childish.

Krelian-co

church is against the cloning of human organs and mother cells that could help with a lot of illnesses and transplants needed. That enough for you?

[QUOTE="roulettethedog"]

I could careless if you worshiped lawn grass. My problem with religion is that it seems to always stand in the way of advancement in Science. Saying God's choice or divine intervention to explain away mysterys seems kinda narrow minded and childish.

SaudiFury

I don't recall hearing any arguments against embryonic stem cell research that were not religious in origin or that were not put forth by religious people.

[QUOTE="Krelian-co"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"] when was the last time religion got in the way of science in modern history? the embryonic stem cell research controversy? As i recall there weren't just religious arguments against, but mostly on moral and ethical grounds as well. and if i remember correctly there have been religious people in one form or another who have been advancing science as well, I forget the man's name but there was a Catholic who actually help advance theories on the Big Bang theory. not to mention whatever Thiestic people there are that are working the science fields as well. SaudiFury

church is against the cloning of human organs and mother cells that could help with a lot of illnesses and transplants needed. That enough for you?

because thankfully church has no real power anymore. if they still did the research would be closed, they have done a few speeches and are openly against it, but thats all they can do now.

Still my point is they will always do something against the advancement of science, even now you asked for an example and that is a very good one.

[QUOTE="roulettethedog"]

I could careless if you worshiped lawn grass. My problem with religion is that it seems to always stand in the way of advancement in Science. Saying God's choice or divine intervention to explain away mysterys seems kinda narrow minded and childish.

SaudiFury

Religion gets in the way of science everyday, parents teaching their kids that the world is 6000 years old and that evolution is a lie and that satan planted the dinosaur bones.

What chance to these kids have of having an interest in science when they are misinformed like this?

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"][QUOTE="roulettethedog"]

I could careless if you worshiped lawn grass. My problem with religion is that it seems to always stand in the way of advancement in Science. Saying God's choice or divine intervention to explain away mysterys seems kinda narrow minded and childish.

tenaka2

Religion gets in the way of science everyday, parents teaching their kids that the world is 6000 years old and that evolution is a lie and that satan planted the dinosaur bones.

What chance to these kids have of having an interest in science when they are misinformed like this?

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"] when was the last time religion got in the way of science in modern history? the embryonic stem cell research controversy? As i recall there weren't just religious arguments against, but mostly on moral and ethical grounds as well. and if i remember correctly there have been religious people in one form or another who have been advancing science as well, I forget the man's name but there was a Catholic who actually help advance theories on the Big Bang theory. not to mention whatever Thiestic people there are that are working the science fields as well. SaudiFury

Religion gets in the way of science everyday, parents teaching their kids that the world is 6000 years old and that evolution is a lie and that satan planted the dinosaur bones.

What chance to these kids have of having an interest in science when they are misinformed like this?

Problem is there are plenty of people in this country who are attempting to get their religious views (Creationism, or "Intelligent Design") taught in science classes.

[QUOTE="mattisgod01"]

[QUOTE="Krelian-co"]

who worships something that doesn't exists? atheism means you don't worship anything

Krelian-co

Well is worshipping something that doesn't exist still worship or just meaningless gestures? An Atheist doesn't beleive god exists so anyone who claims to worship god is actually worshipping nothing and is the act of worshipping nothing still worship?

the act of worship is there, wheater the god they worship is real or not, is irrelevant i can worship santa if i want. atheist don't worship anything, how is that not clear?

now the fact that god exists or not has nothing to do with the definition of theists or atheists itself.

and seriously you are trying too hard.

Nothing is the Absence of something, You cannot worship nothing. So Worship and Theism are just a psychological mindset Based on no evidence and God existing is irrelevant. Ergo Atheism is the more logical position based on the impracticality of accommodating all possible psychological mindsets through the process of applying a strict criteria of acceptance which religion and Theism would not meet without contradiction to said criteria.

Did i win? I used the word Ergo so thats like default win. Either way people need to try harder in these threads, I might not necessarily be right but can i atleast get points for trying?

[QUOTE="Scoob64"]

[QUOTE="NiKva"] You didn't read the entire thing ): I've already blogged this incase a moderator wanted to close this. Personally, I want to see what people see of my thoughts and discuss/debate about it. I was using Christianity as an example since I am Christian. Many times when I see atheists complaining why a God can't possibly exist, they target Judaism/Christianity/Islam.trastamad03

I was a devout Christian years ago... been to church all my life, came close to a minor in religion in college, and even use to do some one-one-one evangelism... but heres the problem with the faith...

Christianty stole many of its elements, like the virgin birth from much earlier faiths... Horas is one example that comes to mind.and there an infinite number of Gods you can believe in. why not believe in Thor, Zeus, Islam, Judaism? they all have about as much evidence for their 'truth'... also, the scriptures have been written and rewritten by tons of scribes throughout history, and so many "gospels" were ommited from the scripture... including the gospel of Peter, Mary Magdalene, etc...are youreally going to put all your faith in some men that hand-pickedthe cannon from a gigantic library of old texts?

yes, its hard to explain a universe coming from nothing, or else always existing... but its just as improbable to think of an eternal coming from nothing, or always existing... if not more so. i'm kind of up in the air about it... i will frankly state that I don't know, and i think thats all we can really say right now... unless you have seen God face to face, its hard to say otherwise.

lastly, if Christianity is real, then 'Christians' would act VERY, VERY differently... i remember hearing that those that are pro-torture of detainees our military capture are overwhelmingly evangelical Christian... yes, because I'm sure Jesus was very pro-torture... the scripture where the prostitute brought before Jesus by the Pharisees comes to mind... why are Christians so pro-war and conquer? why is their divorce rate so high if that is against scripture as well? if christianity were real, the evidence would be reflected in Christians... and the evidence is not there.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that right now I really don't know.

Um, I have never hit you with a hammer.. I think someone may be impersonating me? :?

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"][QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Religion gets in the way of science everyday, parents teaching their kids that the world is 6000 years old and that evolution is a lie and that satan planted the dinosaur bones.

What chance to these kids have of having an interest in science when they are misinformed like this?

worlock77

Problem is there are plenty of people in this country who are attempting to get their religious views (Creationism, or "Intelligent Design") taught in science classes.

That is not to be blamed on religious people. I have little respect for a majority of the American Christian population as well, and most Christians elsewhere are estranged by their behaviour.

You might ask me, "How do you know there is a God?" My answer is that I just take a look around myself. Objects can be broken down by what exactly they are made up, whether it be material, element, or even how many protons, electrons, and neutrons there are in it. You might now be asking "Well how does this prove in your belief of a God?" My answer for that is that we don't know how the elements were created, or how atoms came to be. In my own opionion, I would believe that a divine entity created everything in the universe, and that we are slowly understanding what anything is made of through scienceNiKva

So because we don't know how everything came to be, automatically = some supreme being made it.

It doesn't solve the question at all, it just raises another one, how did God get created?

[QUOTE="roulettethedog"]

I could careless if you worshiped lawn grass. My problem with religion is that it seems to always stand in the way of advancement in Science. Saying God's choice or divine intervention to explain away mysterys seems kinda narrow minded and childish.

SaudiFury

my rebuttle to religion

i felt that this was very very relevant for a topic like this and i have never seen it posted here before :P

[QUOTE="realguitarhero5"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] So do you do it?Frame_Dragger

Ummmm... Abraham begs to disagree. Still, it isn't a good question for other reasons. IF the god I don't believe in DOES exist, then anything it tells you to do is right. AFAIK, that's the Judeo-Christian religious framework... period. If god tells you to dance with peanut butter on your nipples while wearing a pith-helmet... you do that. The issue here is that we're assuming a god exists and has proven credentials, and it's an ominipotent, omniscient, and living god. If you're assuming ALL of that... why even ask the question? Still... a lot of people seem to believe that various scriptures provide a framework for killing people under a divine mandate. That is a much more complex issue than some hypothetical which offers a fait accompli.

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]

[QUOTE="realguitarhero5"] That was a bad question. Because God would not just ask a person to kill another.realguitarhero5

Ummmm... Abraham begs to disagree. Still, it isn't a good question for other reasons. IF the god I don't believe in DOES exist, then anything it tells you to do is right. AFAIK, that's the Judeo-Christian religious framework... period. If god tells you to dance with peanut butter on your nipples while wearing a pith-helmet... you do that. The issue here is that we're assuming a god exists and has proven credentials, and it's an ominipotent, omniscient, and living god. If you're assuming ALL of that... why even ask the question? Still... a lot of people seem to believe that various scriptures provide a framework for killing people under a divine mandate. That is a much more complex issue than some hypothetical which offers a fait accompli.

What exactly is the message to take away from that?

[QUOTE="realguitarhero5"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]

Ummmm... Abraham begs to disagree. Still, it isn't a good question for other reasons. IF the god I don't believe in DOES exist, then anything it tells you to do is right. AFAIK, that's the Judeo-Christian religious framework... period. If god tells you to dance with peanut butter on your nipples while wearing a pith-helmet... you do that. The issue here is that we're assuming a god exists and has proven credentials, and it's an ominipotent, omniscient, and living god. If you're assuming ALL of that... why even ask the question? Still... a lot of people seem to believe that various scriptures provide a framework for killing people under a divine mandate. That is a much more complex issue than some hypothetical which offers a fait accompli.

mattisgod01

What exactly is the message to take away from that?

I can't figure it out either, did god tell abe to kill his son or not?

That was a bad question. Because God would not just ask a person to kill another.realguitarhero5

Ummmm... Abraham begs to disagree. Still, it isn't a good question for other reasons. IF the god I don't believe in DOES exist, then anything it tells you to do is right. AFAIK, that's the Judeo-Christian religious framework... period. If god tells you to dance with peanut butter on your nipples while wearing a pith-helmet... you do that. The issue here is that we're assuming a god exists and has proven credentials, and it's an ominipotent, omniscient, and living god. If you're assuming ALL of that... why even ask the question? Still... a lot of people seem to believe that various scriptures provide a framework for killing people under a divine mandate. That is a much more complex issue than some hypothetical which offers a fait accompli.

If god truly exists and if he is morally just then he would never accept the vast majority of religions that we know today. The history of abuse is too much.

If you are born in India, you would most likely be brought up as a Hindu. If you were born in the time of the vikings in Denmark you would believe in Thor. If you were born in ancient Greece you would have believed in Zeus. If you were born in Iraq you would most likely be a Muslim. They can't all be right, they can't all be telling the truth or leading you to a truth and herein you see the problem, somebody is leading you astray and somebody is wrong. If you believe one thing, why do you not believe the others, why believe they are wrong and you right? It is because you didn't grow up in ancient Greece or born in the time of the vikings or born in Iraq or born in India and you weren't involuntarily made believe anything and that is the only answer.Cloudwolfe

copyright to richard dawkins.

[QUOTE="Cloudwolfe"]If you are born in India, you would most likely be brought up as a Hindu. If you were born in the time of the vikings in Denmark you would believe in Thor. If you were born in ancient Greece you would have believed in Zeus. If you were born in Iraq you would most likely be a Muslim. They can't all be right, they can't all be telling the truth or leading you to a truth and herein you see the problem, somebody is leading you astray and somebody is wrong. If you believe one thing, why do you not believe the others, why believe they are wrong and you right? It is because you didn't grow up in ancient Greece or born in the time of the vikings or born in Iraq or born in India and you weren't involuntarily made believe anything and that is the only answer.biohaznerd

copyright to richard dawkins.

[QUOTE="-Tish-"]Also as a side note, I hate that TC decided to incorporate scientific reasoning into his religious beliefs. It's almost like saying, "Well, maybe some of this science stuff like evolution is true.... But I bet it's because god put it there, even though there's no reference to it in the bible!" Frame_Dragger

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"] school. internet. radio. video games if they touch on it (God games like Spore come to mind, which while light kinda touches on the subject at all) television. other people you will meet in your lifetime. any number of things outside of the home. Can only shelter a kid for only so long. Hell i came from one of the most conservative Islamic countries in the world, and i figured out about Evolution a little bit in Biology class, and more of it via the internet, as well as learned about Abiogensis and the other theories. Victorious_Fize

Problem is there are plenty of people in this country who are attempting to get their religious views (Creationism, or "Intelligent Design") taught in science classes.

That is not to be blamed on religious people. I have little respect for a majority of the American Christian population as well, and most Christians elsewhere are estranged by their behaviour.

Ok. So if it's religious people trying to get their religion taught in science class who is to blame if not those religious people?

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="-Tish-"]Also as a side note, I hate that TC decided to incorporate scientific reasoning into his religious beliefs. It's almost like saying, "Well, maybe some of this science stuff like evolution is true.... But I bet it's because god put it there, even though there's no reference to it in the bible!" -Tish-

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Problem is there are plenty of people in this country who are attempting to get their religious views (Creationism, or "Intelligent Design") taught in science classes.

That is not to be blamed on religious people. I have little respect for a majority of the American Christian population as well, and most Christians elsewhere are estranged by their behaviour.

Ok. So if it's religious people trying to get their religion taught in science class who is to blame if not those religious people?

Hmm nobody willing to answer my question?

greenskittles

my rebuttle to religion

i felt that this was very very relevant for a topic like this and i have never seen it posted here before :P

linkin_guy109

It's look like you copy someone elses argument. Make your own argument.

[QUOTE="-Tish-"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] You hate that he keeps an open mind and isn't sticking to some fundamentalist line of literalism? The post wasn't exactly a stroke of genius or original thinking, but the notion that science and religion can co-exist was refreshing to hear on GS... people here seem to prefer armed camps.Frame_Dragger

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] Right, but there are multiple doctrines, so which do you think is the right one?Frame_Dragger

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="-Tish-"] It's not keeping an open mind. It's making an excuse for religion to continue to be a viable reasoning as to why life exists.-Tish-

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="gaming25"] I meant The Bible when saying doctrine.gaming25

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] And if you get someone from each sect I mentioned to agree on what the bible means, and what doctrine it outlines, I'll eat my shoes. You're still dodging.Frame_Dragger

The question is too broad. There are many different takes that I have with disagreements within Christianity.

[QUOTE="-Tish-"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] To me, once you've gone past the point where science can attempt an answer, feel free to believe whatever you like. In the course of listening to endless speculations about what "things" are like beyond the event horizon of a black hole, I fall back on the standby voiced by John Earman, who suggested that you might just find, "green slime and lost socks." There is a point after which current methods of investigation, and all reasonable future attempts will fail, and we can simply not know (which is my policy), or we can invent or adhere to fancies (the OP's preference). As long as you're with reality until that critical juncture, it's hardly meaningful. I used to think much as you do, but then I realized that it's a win anytime you find people who don't think god sneezed the universe into being 6000 years ago.Frame_Dragger

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="gaming25"] Why would it matter which type of ideal I would find correct?gaming25

The question is too broad. There are many different takes that I have with disagreements within Christianity.

[QUOTE="gaming25"]

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] It doesn't matter, but it would tell me something about you.realguitarhero5

The question is too broad. There are many different takes that I have with disagreements within Christianity.

I've never known of the Jehova's Witness teaching this doctrine (though admittedly I never paid that much attention to them). Are you sure you're not confusing them with the Mormons?

[QUOTE="realguitarhero5"][QUOTE="gaming25"]

The question is too broad. There are many different takes that I have with disagreements within Christianity.

worlock77

I've never known of the Jehova's Witness teaching this doctrine (though admittedly I never paid that much attention to them). Are you sure you're not confusing them with the Mormons?

I still have absolutely no reason to follow any religion.

To OP:

Agreed. Although when faced with the "can you prove God" question, I just ask "can you disprove God in any way other than by pointing to some theory that doesn't?" Also, God created the universe and science to give a choice to people so that you still have free will. In the future, I'm confident that more of science will mesh with explaining God, although possibly not as most people wouldn't disbelieve if God could be proven and that's not really free will and faith. Although, some could choose not too out of spite or for evil or whatever. I'm not trying to convince anyone anymore, because it just gets to a quagmire of semantics and logjams and reaches an empasse every time with neither atheists nor I convincing the other. It's like that with everyone unless your beliefs are weak to begin with, so it's pointless to try in most cases.

And God didn't create the Universe 5,000 years ago. God created it billions of years ago as is proven.

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="-Tish-"] You used to think as much as I do? I'm not a science nut nor do I adhere to all its principles. Based on what you just said, I'd wager we pretty much think the same way, except my idea of keeping an open mind doesn't involve combining two completely unrelated theories to explain an answer for life's existence. -Tish-

All religions will die by time

But ignorance will never die, people will keep believe in every ridiculous thing they are told

To OP:

Agreed. Although when faced with the "can you prove God" question, I just ask "can you disprove God in any way other than by pointing to some theory that doesn't?" Also, God created the universe and science to give a choice to people so that you still have free will. In the future, I'm confident that more of science will mesh with explaining God, although possibly not as most people wouldn't disbelieve if God could be proven and that's not really free will and faith. Although, some could choose not too out of spite or for evil or whatever. I'm not trying to convince anyone anymore, because it just gets to a quagmire of semantics and logjams and reaches an empasse every time with neither atheists nor I convincing the other. It's like that with everyone unless your beliefs are weak to begin with, so it's pointless to try in most cases.

And God didn't create the Universe 5,000 years ago. God created it billions of years ago as is proven.

Sunfyre7896

All religions will die by time

But ignorance will never die, people will keep believe in every ridiculous thing they are told

[QUOTE="-Tish-"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] You hate that he keeps an open mind and isn't sticking to some fundamentalist line of literalism? The post wasn't exactly a stroke of genius or original thinking, but the notion that science and religion can co-exist was refreshing to hear on GS... people here seem to prefer armed camps.Frame_Dragger