N Korea deploys missiles near South border.

N.Korea to be 'merciless'

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20101128-305787/NKorea-to-be-merciless-if-any-provocationstate-media

PandaTrueno86

[QUOTE="sherman-tank1"]

[QUOTE="F1_2004"]In all honesty, wtf is South Korea doing playing wargames right on the border with N.Korea? These are not the actions of a nation that wants to avoid trouble. Do your ****ing wargames somewhere further South, or else a lot of countries are going to get dragged into the war.shert

Yup that's true, the US is obligated to help the south if they get into a war with North Korea and China isn't about to let the North Korean government get deposed as they are one of North Koreas biggest allies. This is looking grim.

China doesn't give a damn about North Korea. They are a symbolic ally and nothing else. They give NOTHING of value to China. If China sided with them they would lose ALL of their current trade partners, end up in a war with the US and most of Europe, and end up defeated and losing the debt they hold on other countries, plunging them back to third world status. All to save a country that does nothing but constantly embarass them? China hasn't moved to do anything yet and they won't.

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"][QUOTE="optiow"]If the North attacked they would be destroyed. The world is just waiting for a chance to invade. Pixel-Pirate

You can have a gun that's jammed. When you do it's basically a hunk of plastic and metal.

Best Korea likely has Nukes. Have they had a successful test launch? No. Considering they're using equipment from the 50's, it's hard to say their nukes will even reach out of best Korea or if it will even launch.

I'm also not sure on how it all works but if they nuked, sey, Seoul, wouldn't the fallout drift to Best Korea and kill them as well? Nukes arn't too useful if you're going to kill yourself with them.

Well what is most unsettling is that recently before all this began north korea was showcasing its "ultra modern" uranium enrichment plant to a US official, so thats troubling enough right there, who noes what they're capable of on their own. Also this is assuming china doesn't intervene and if they do you can expect them to supply arms and tech to the north koreans just as Russia did for china back in the cold war.

[QUOTE="Bardock47"]

[QUOTE="gameguy6700"] China would tell us to **** off if we did that. Contrary to popular belief, the main reason China doesn't want war to break out isn't because they like North Korea, it's because they don't want to have to deal with the massive influx of impoverished, brainwashed North Korean refugees that are sure to flood into China the second NK's government becomes too weak to guard the borders anymore. As it stands now China happily ships back any North Korean refugees it finds crossing the border into China not because it gives a damn what NK's government wants but simply because the Chinese hate the idea of their country being flooded with refugees.JasonDarksavior

Artillery Heard in North Korea:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-11-27/artillery-heard-in-north-korea-u-s-carrier-enters-yellow-sea.html

[QUOTE="shert"]

[QUOTE="sherman-tank1"]SK has been bullied enough. They need to stand up for themselves. Its obvious these attacks aren't stopping anytime soon. They are going as far as they can without starting war. Of course, this is my perspective, and while I disagree with other nations being involved, as they should settle matters themselves, I don't think China and US aren't going to back out of this.

Pixel-Pirate

Yup that's true, the US is obligated to help the south if they get into a war with North Korea and China isn't about to let the North Korean government get deposed as they are one of North Koreas biggest allies. This is looking grim.

China doesn't give a damn about North Korea. They are a symbolic ally and nothing else. They give NOTHING of value to China. If China sided with them they would lose ALL of their current trade partners, end up in a war with the US and most of Europe, and end up defeated and losing the debt they hold on other countries, plunging them back to third world status. All to save a country that does nothing but constantly embarass them? China hasn't moved to do anything yet and they won't.

It may be a symbolic alliance but it's an important one at that if China were to sit by and do nothing while a well known ally was attacked it would set an embarassing precedent in itself. Allowing an ally to be attacked, useless one or not, can't be allowed, which is primarily why the US will aid the south even though they should stay out of it.

Wouldn't it be more likely that South Korea would reclaim it and lots of US bases would be built on the reclaimed land? If the US could build bases in N. Korea they essentially surround China with it's allies (Japan) ect.

And by stand up for themselves we mean provoke the bully and then hide behind the body builder(US).

Pixel-Pirate

South Korea does need to stop doing war training near NK, but I suppose it's more of a problem that NK harshly overreacts every time. It's not like NK doesn't flex it's "muscles" to SK every now and then. Hell, they're basically doing it now.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

And by stand up for themselves we mean provoke the bully and then hide behind the body builder(US).

sherman-tank1

[QUOTE="JasonDarksavior"][QUOTE="Bardock47"] Thank you for the explanation, I honestly don't know much about the realtions and politics between them. Either way though, it seems China would have to deal with NK refugees. The question is if China would be be able to withstand the refugee problem, for a major turf exapansion?

Bardock47

wrong post

What makes you think if North Korea fell it would go into Chinese hands?JasonDarksavior

Wouldn't it be more likely that South Korea would reclaim it and lots of US bases would be built on the reclaimed land? If the US could build bases in N. Korea they essentially surround China with it's allies (Japan) ect.

[QUOTE="Bardock47"]

[QUOTE="JasonDarksavior"] What makes you think if North Korea fell it would go into Chinese hands?gameguy6700

This.

Wars aren't about land anymore the time of imperialism is over. Now it's about economic, military and diplomatic edge, North korea is more useful as a puppet state then it would be as a part of China.

[QUOTE="JasonDarksavior"] If the US invaded NK, won, and sold the land to China. Thats just a 'what-if' at this point obviously, plus we don't know if China would even accept that offer.Bardock47

Wouldn't it be more likely that South Korea would reclaim it and lots of US bases would be built on the reclaimed land? If the US could build bases in N. Korea they essentially surround China with it's allies (Japan) ect.

Anyone still think McCarthur was wrong about North Korea?

[QUOTE="Bardock47"]

[QUOTE="JasonDarksavior"] What makes you think if North Korea fell it would go into Chinese hands?gameguy6700

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"] Too risky... More than just that to it. The North could easily attack the South, it's not as simple as waiting for the right moment and then jumping on them, especially when they most likely have nukes.shert

You can have a gun that's jammed. When you do it's basically a hunk of plastic and metal.

Best Korea likely has Nukes. Have they had a successful test launch? No. Considering they're using equipment from the 50's, it's hard to say their nukes will even reach out of best Korea or if it will even launch.

I'm also not sure on how it all works but if they nuked, sey, Seoul, wouldn't the fallout drift to Best Korea and kill them as well? Nukes arn't too useful if you're going to kill yourself with them.

Well what is most unsettling is that recently before all this began north korea was showcasing its "ultra modern" uranium enrichment plant to a US official, so thats troubling enough right there, who noes what they're capable of on their own. Also this is assuming china doesn't intervene and if they do you can expect them to supply arms and tech to the north koreans just as Russia did for china back in the cold war.

I don't think being able to enrich urainium matters much if your missle can't even launch. You can make a super bullet but if your gun doesn't work that bullet isn't too useful.

I'm not even taking China into consideration because I am 99.9% sure they will not get involved outside of stopping refugees from coming into China and maybe securing some land.

Here is what North Korea does for China.

Keep impovrished refugees from coming into China.

Be a buffer between American influenced SK.

What US (and by relation everyone who is not North Korea) does for China.

Trade with them.

Borrow lots of money.

Make them a world economic super power.

So one must ask would China give up the bottom part there (trade with basically everyone in the world, owning debt, and becoming a super power) to save a country that really does next to nothing for them? I don't think so.

We'll defend SK because it is actually a valuable ally to us. Best Korea is not a valuable ally to China. It is an ally and a symbol but not one worth losing everything for. I don't see a psychotic unpredictable loose cannon when I look at China. I think their move is quite predictable. They do not want this war to happen and they do not want Best Korea gone, but they arn't going to start WW3 over it. If it happens it happens and they deal with it. It ain't worth it for them.

[QUOTE="shert"]

[QUOTE="sherman-tank1"]SK has been bullied enough. They need to stand up for themselves. Its obvious these attacks aren't stopping anytime soon. They are going as far as they can without starting war. Of course, this is my perspective, and while I disagree with other nations being involved, as they should settle matters themselves, I don't think China and US aren't going to back out of this.

Pixel-Pirate

Yup that's true, the US is obligated to help the south if they get into a war with North Korea and China isn't about to let the North Korean government get deposed as they are one of North Koreas biggest allies. This is looking grim.

China doesn't give a damn about North Korea. They are a symbolic ally and nothing else. They give NOTHING of value to China. If China sided with them they would lose ALL of their current trade partners, end up in a war with the US and most of Europe, and end up defeated and losing the debt they hold on other countries, plunging them back to third world status. All to save a country that does nothing but constantly embarass them? China hasn't moved to do anything yet and they won't.

It is said in the first hour of war 70% of Seoul would be wiped out with its 10 million population

[QUOTE="sherman-tank1"]

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

And by stand up for themselves we mean provoke the bully and then hide behind the body builder(US).

JasonDarksavior

[QUOTE="shert"]

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

You can have a gun that's jammed. When you do it's basically a hunk of plastic and metal.

Best Korea likely has Nukes. Have they had a successful test launch? No. Considering they're using equipment from the 50's, it's hard to say their nukes will even reach out of best Korea or if it will even launch.

I'm also not sure on how it all works but if they nuked, sey, Seoul, wouldn't the fallout drift to Best Korea and kill them as well? Nukes arn't too useful if you're going to kill yourself with them.

Pixel-Pirate

Well what is most unsettling is that recently before all this began north korea was showcasing its "ultra modern" uranium enrichment plant to a US official, so thats troubling enough right there, who noes what they're capable of on their own. Also this is assuming china doesn't intervene and if they do you can expect them to supply arms and tech to the north koreans just as Russia did for china back in the cold war.

I don't think being able to enrich urainium matters much if your missle can't even launch. You can make a super bullet but if your gun doesn't work that bullet isn't too useful.

I'm not even taking China into consideration because I am 99.9% sure they will not get involved outside of stopping refugees from coming into China and maybe securing some land.

Here is what North Korea does for China.

Keep impovrished refugees from coming into China.

Be a buffer between American influenced SK.

What US (and by relation everyone who is not North Korea) does for China.

Trade with them.

Borrow lots of money.

Make them a world economic super power.

So one must ask would China give up the bottom part there (trade with basically everyone in the world, owning debt, and becoming a super power) to save a country that really does next to nothing for them? I don't think so.

We'll defend SK because it is actually a valuable ally to us. Best Korea is not a valuable ally to China. It is an ally and a symbol but not one worth losing everything for. I don't see a psychotic unpredictable loose cannon when I look at China. I think their move is quite predictable. They do not want this war to happen and they do not want Best Korea gone, but they arn't going to start WW3 over it. If it happens it happens and they deal with it. It ain't worth it for them.

That is true, it does seem like China has its goal set on peace and going to all out war over NK seems petty and frivilous so let's assume that only Best Korea is involved here. I see them as a loose cannon in every defenition of the word and knowing that their missles can't get very far I don't think you can put it past the current dictator to fire one off anyways if his back is against the wall.

I honestly think China's best move right now is to pull a complete 180 by rushing into Best korea and quickly deposing Kim Jong themselves and putting in a leader who can better serve their own needs by keeping the peace.

[QUOTE="JasonDarksavior"][QUOTE="sherman-tank1"]Nope, they have their own military of 500,000. (Rough estimate)

Lonelynight

Yeh, but they still need USA to buy them from.

Yeh, but they still need USA to buy them from.

JasonDarksavior

[QUOTE="JasonDarksavior"]

Yeh, but they still need USA to buy them from.

sherman-tank1

Heres a nice diagram explaining who will be the crap out of who

Holy **** at the amount of submarines north korea have

Heres a nice diagram explaining who will be the crap out of who

Holy **** at the amount of submarines north korea have

SPBoss

Whoa...I didn't expect N Korea's budget to be that big...Like I knew it was big, but 5 billion....

It is said in the first hour of war 70% of Seoul would be wiped out with its 10 million population

ZIVX

By what? 1950's Soviet bombers?

Heres a nice diagram explaining who will be the crap out of who

Holy **** at the amount of submarines north korea have

SPBoss

Submarines are high maintance, I doubt many of them still work.

Heres a nice diagram explaining who will be the crap out of who

Holy **** at the amount of submarines north korea have

SPBoss

This diagram doesn't take into account the massive technological advantage that South Korea has because of the US, tech advantage is one of the most important things in modern warfare.

My point is that South Korea needs USA to buy a lot of their military equipment. Nothing more.JasonDarksavior

[QUOTE="SPBoss"]

Heres a nice diagram explaining who will be the crap out of who

Holy **** at the amount of submarines north korea have

UnknownSniper65

Submarines are high maintance, I doubt many of them still work.

They are probably diesel as well...

[QUOTE="ZIVX"]

It is said in the first hour of war 70% of Seoul would be wiped out with its 10 million population

Wasdie

By what? 1950's Soviet bombers?

Damn straight :P

This diagram doesn't take into account the massive technological advantage that South Korea has because of the US, tech advantage is one of the most important things in modern warfare.

shert

Heres a nice diagram explaining who will be the crap out of who

Holy **** at the amount of submarines north korea have

SPBoss

See those numbers... 5 billion vs 24 billion? Do you actually know the makeup of the North Korean army? During the 50s the North Koreans suffered one of the worst military defeats in the history of warfare, they had nothing left. Everything was then rebuilt with hand-me-downs from a 1950-1960s Soviet Union. I would venture a damn good guess that most of their tanks and planes are older than three times the average age of a Gamespot poster while the South Koreans are using much more advanced equipment.

Numbers don't count for squat anymore. The North Korean army is at a total disadvantage. They are deploying AA missles with a 30km MAX range at the border. 30kms max. The South Koreans have weapons that could take those out from 100 kms.

It comes down to the fact that no country wants to bare the burden of North Korean poverty. South Korea doesn't want it, China doesn't want it, the US doesn't want it, nobody wants it and for damn good reason.

[QUOTE="ZIVX"]

It is said in the first hour of war 70% of Seoul would be wiped out with its 10 million population

Wasdie

By what? 1950's Soviet bombers?

I also question the ability of North Korea to strike the Seoul to the extent many claim.

According to this diagram people are now beginning to question whether or not North Korea's largest artillery pieces are even capable of hitting anything beyond the outskirts of the city.

[QUOTE="shert"]

This diagram doesn't take into account the massive technological advantage that South Korea has because of the US, tech advantage is one of the most important things in modern warfare.

sherman-tank1

Yeah that little border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is doing wonders for our enemy right now. You know, the one that prevents the ISAF forces from doing their damn job.

[QUOTE="sherman-tank1"]

[QUOTE="shert"]

This diagram doesn't take into account the massive technological advantage that South Korea has because of the US, tech advantage is one of the most important things in modern warfare.

Wasdie

Yeah that little border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is doing wonders for our enemy right now.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="sherman-tank1"]And tactics. Tech advantage obviously isn't doing much in Afghanistan to win the war.

SPBoss

Yeah that little border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is doing wonders for our enemy right now.

No it's a political border that prevents the ISAF from actually attacking the Taliban forces at their heart. Pakistan refuses to do their damn job and the ISAF and Afghanistan people suffer from it.

North Korea is stupid enough to start a war.

Yeah that little border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is doing wonders for our enemy right now. You know, the one that prevents the ISAF forces from doing their damn job.

Wasdie

This is news? North Korea already had SAMs all across the border, this really isn't anything new.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Yeah that little border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is doing wonders for our enemy right now. You know, the one that prevents the ISAF forces from doing their damn job.

sherman-tank1

Exactly what's your point? The Taliban aren't stupid, they know political borders and use them whenever possible. It is saving their asses right now.

Exactly what's your point? The Taliban aren't stupid, they know political borders and use them whenever possible. It is saving their asses right now.

Wasdie

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Exactly what's your point? The Taliban aren't stupid, they know political borders and use them whenever possible. It is saving their asses right now.

sherman-tank1

I think your idea of tactics extends to just some basic logical reasoning. The basic tactics that the Taliban fighters use right now is to send pretty much waves of Pakistani soldiers under the command of the veteran Afghanistan officers at the US troops or just ambush whenever possible and run. Pretty much typical guerrilla warfare.

The best way to stop guerrilla warfare is to hit the source. That is our problem, we can't hit the source.

I think your idea of tactics extends to just some basic logical reasoning. The basic tactics that the Taliban fighters use right now is to send pretty much waves of Pakistani soldiers under the command of the veteran Afghanistan officers at the US troops or just ambush whenever possible and run. Pretty much typical guerrilla warfare.

The best way to stop guerrilla warfare is to hit the source. That is our problem, we can't hit the source.

Wasdie

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="ZIVX"]

It is said in the first hour of war 70% of Seoul would be wiped out with its 10 million population

UnknownSniper65

By what? 1950's Soviet bombers?

I also question the ability of North Korea to strike the Seoul to the extent many claim.

According to this diagram people are now beginning to question whether or not North Korea's largest artillery pieces are even capable of hitting anything beyond the outskirts of the city.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="shert"]

Yup that's true, the US is obligated to help the south if they get into a war with North Korea and China isn't about to let the North Korean government get deposed as they are one of North Koreas biggest allies. This is looking grim.

F1_2004

China doesn't give a damn about North Korea. They are a symbolic ally and nothing else. They give NOTHING of value to China. If China sided with them they would lose ALL of their current trade partners, end up in a war with the US and most of Europe, and end up defeated and losing the debt they hold on other countries, plunging them back to third world status. All to save a country that does nothing but constantly embarass them? China hasn't moved to do anything yet and they won't.

Of course they don't.

The question is do they not want that so much that they'd willingly plunge themselves from economic super power to third world hell hole by destroying all trade relations?

My best is on no.

I'd rather not get drafted, so I think that mr. Obama should probably send Kim a nice christmas present.