Paul Ryan's Main Influence: 10 Things You Should Know About the Lunatic Ayn Rand

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kuraimen

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#1 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts

Holy crap I knew this woman was cuckoo but I didn't know she was THAT cuckoo. Her role model was a serial murderer? Well that actually explains a lot about her philosophy: no empathy, selfishness and you against the world moronic mentallity. The incredible and scary thing is that people are actually taking her seriously being one of the main inspirations of the tea party authorities.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/paul-ryans-biggest-influence-10-things-you-should-know-about-lunatic-ayn-rand?page=0%2C0

I think this should be a major concern for the US if the right keeps on this track towards their dreamed Ayn-land.

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kingkong0124

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#2 kingkong0124
Member since 2012 • 8329 Posts

What a great source, bro.

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cslayer211

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#3 cslayer211
Member since 2012 • 797 Posts

tin-foil-hat.jpg

I stopped reading at the part where it talked about the conspiracy theory of conservatives trying seduce Americans.

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Abbeten

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#4 Abbeten
Member since 2012 • 3140 Posts
Objectivism is dumb. That said, alternet is also dumb.
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GreySeal9

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#6 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

While it is concerning that Ryan puts so much stock in Rand, you're going to have to get a better source.

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l4dak47

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#7 l4dak47
Member since 2009 • 6838 Posts

What a great source, bro.

kingkong0124
It's not any worse than the sources you try to pass off.
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GreySeal9

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#8 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

What a great source, bro.

l4dak47

It's not any worse than the sources you try to pass off.

Good point.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#9 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
I believe that the protagonist of The Fountainhead is based on that same serial killer.
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Laihendi

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#10 Laihendi
Member since 2009 • 5872 Posts
What is wrong with selfishness? What is wrong with being concerned with yourself? If you're not concerned with yourself, then who will be? Someone has to make sure you have food, housing, and whatever else you need to live a decent life (an education, for example). It seems rational for each of us to be responsible for ourselves, rather than hope that some other person will take care of us. If you are not responsible for yourself, you are a burden on someone else. You cannot be responsible for yourself without being concerned with yourself. So again, what is wrong with selfishness?
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kingkong0124

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#11 kingkong0124
Member since 2012 • 8329 Posts
[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

What a great source, bro.

l4dak47
It's not any worse than the sources you try to pass off.

depends if the information holds merit or not...this one...nope, sorry.
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AdamPA1006

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#12 AdamPA1006
Member since 2004 • 6422 Posts
Not really any evidence. You saying rand admired a serial killer is the same as the right saying obama likes those crazy reverands or the communist "influences"
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#13 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
What is wrong with selfishness? What is wrong with being concerned with yourself? If you're not concerned with yourself, then who will be? Someone has to make sure you have food, housing, and whatever else you need to live a decent life (an education, for example). It seems rational for each of us to be responsible for ourselves, rather than hope that some other person will take care of us. If you are not responsible for yourself, you are a burden on someone else. You cannot be responsible for yourself without being concerned with yourself. So again, what is wrong with selfishness?Laihendi
That's not what Ayn Rand's philosophy is.
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Abbeten

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#14 Abbeten
Member since 2012 • 3140 Posts
What is wrong with selfishness? What is wrong with being concerned with yourself? If you're not concerned with yourself, then who will be? Someone has to make sure you have food, housing, and whatever else you need to live a decent life (an education, for example). It seems rational for each of us to be responsible for ourselves, rather than hope that some other person will take care of us. If you are not responsible for yourself, you are a burden on someone else. You cannot be responsible for yourself without being concerned with yourself. So again, what is wrong with selfishness?Laihendi
Nothing inherently. But this is not the essence of objectivism.
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l4dak47

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#15 l4dak47
Member since 2009 • 6838 Posts
[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

What a great source, bro.

kingkong0124
It's not any worse than the sources you try to pass off.

depends if the information holds merit or not...this one...nope, sorry.

Yours doesn't, either.
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SpartanMSU

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#16 SpartanMSU
Member since 2009 • 3440 Posts

Oh, it's a kuraimen thread, what a surprise.

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GreySeal9

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#17 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

What is wrong with selfishness? What is wrong with being concerned with yourself? If you're not concerned with yourself, then who will be? Someone has to make sure you have food, housing, and whatever else you need to live a decent life (an education, for example). It seems rational for each of us to be responsible for ourselves, rather than hope that some other person will take care of us. If you are not responsible for yourself, you are a burden on someone else. You cannot be responsible for yourself without being concerned with yourself. So again, what is wrong with selfishness?Laihendi

It is perfectly possible to be concerned about oneself at the same not being selfish.

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Laihendi

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#18 Laihendi
Member since 2009 • 5872 Posts
[QUOTE="Laihendi"]What is wrong with selfishness? What is wrong with being concerned with yourself? If you're not concerned with yourself, then who will be? Someone has to make sure you have food, housing, and whatever else you need to live a decent life (an education, for example). It seems rational for each of us to be responsible for ourselves, rather than hope that some other person will take care of us. If you are not responsible for yourself, you are a burden on someone else. You cannot be responsible for yourself without being concerned with yourself. So again, what is wrong with selfishness?-Sun_Tzu-
That's not what Ayn Rand's philosophy is.

The OP implied criticism against selfishness, which is what I was responding to.
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kingkong0124

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#19 kingkong0124
Member since 2012 • 8329 Posts
[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"][QUOTE="l4dak47"] It's not any worse than the sources you try to pass off.

depends if the information holds merit or not...this one...nope, sorry.

Yours doesn't, either.

which one you got in mind?
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MrPraline

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#20 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
Ayn's heart was so cold she could cure any global warming issues for the next 500 years. Shame she's dead.
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l4dak47

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#21 l4dak47
Member since 2009 • 6838 Posts
[QUOTE="kingkong0124"][QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"] depends if the information holds merit or not...this one...nope, sorry.

Yours doesn't, either.

which one you got in mind?

Most of the sources you used in gay marriage threads.
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kingkong0124

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#22 kingkong0124
Member since 2012 • 8329 Posts
[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"][QUOTE="l4dak47"] Yours doesn't, either.

which one you got in mind?

Most of the sources you used in gay marriage threads.

I'd say they were quite reasonable myself.
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kuraimen

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#23 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
lol why is everyone attacking Alternet. It is a credible source even if you don't agree with it. Pulitzer price and even nobel prize winners write for it.
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GreySeal9

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#24 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"] which one you got in mind?kingkong0124
Most of the sources you used in gay marriage threads.

I'd say they were quite reasonable myself.

To be fair, you're not really smart enough to judge how reasonable your sources are.

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MrPraline

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#25 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
lol why is everyone attacking Alternet. It is a credible source even if you don't agree with it. Pulitzer price and even nobel prize winners write for it.kuraimen
Probably because it's not CNN or BBC (which is funny because they do deserve the criticism posted here). People have been conditioned to conflate alternative media with "conspiracy nut jobs". Proves they must be doing something right.
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BossPerson

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#26 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

Ayn's heart was so cold she could cure any global warming issues for the next 500 years. Shame she's dead.MrPraline
lol

anyways, we should take 1000 or so of these Rand worshippers and put them on an Island for a couple years and see how Ayn Rands philisophy works in practice.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#27 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Laihendi"]What is wrong with selfishness? What is wrong with being concerned with yourself? If you're not concerned with yourself, then who will be? Someone has to make sure you have food, housing, and whatever else you need to live a decent life (an education, for example). It seems rational for each of us to be responsible for ourselves, rather than hope that some other person will take care of us. If you are not responsible for yourself, you are a burden on someone else. You cannot be responsible for yourself without being concerned with yourself. So again, what is wrong with selfishness?Laihendi
That's not what Ayn Rand's philosophy is.

The OP implied criticism against selfishness, which is what I was responding to.

The only thing the OP is criticizing is Ayn Rand and her influence.
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ghoklebutter

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#28 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts
lol randroids
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kingkong0124

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#29 kingkong0124
Member since 2012 • 8329 Posts

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"][QUOTE="l4dak47"] Most of the sources you used in gay marriage threads. GreySeal9

I'd say they were quite reasonable myself.

To be fair, you're not really smart enough to judge how reasonable your sources are.

Lol, okay bro. :roll:

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kuraimen

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#30 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
What is wrong with selfishness? What is wrong with being concerned with yourself? If you're not concerned with yourself, then who will be? Someone has to make sure you have food, housing, and whatever else you need to live a decent life (an education, for example). It seems rational for each of us to be responsible for ourselves, rather than hope that some other person will take care of us. If you are not responsible for yourself, you are a burden on someone else. You cannot be responsible for yourself without being concerned with yourself. So again, what is wrong with selfishness?Laihendi
Have fun getting food, housing and education all by yourself. You should start by getting the land to cultivate your own food and build your own house with your own materials. Then you have to come up with every theory and technology ever to educate yourself. You can start by learning to make fire alone. If you don't want helping others then don't use what others do or did to help yourself.
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kuraimen

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#31 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
[QUOTE="kuraimen"]lol why is everyone attacking Alternet. It is a credible source even if you don't agree with it. Pulitzer price and even nobel prize winners write for it.MrPraline
Probably because it's not CNN or BBC (which is funny because they do deserve the criticism posted here). People have been conditioned to conflate alternative media with "conspiracy nut jobs". Proves they must be doing something right.

They complain about the corporate media but condemn alternative sources because they're not popular names. Lol sounds about right.
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ShadowMoses900

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#32 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

Ayn Rand was a Jewish immigrant from Russia, she is considered by many to be the pioneer of modern day libertarianism.

Ayn Rand was a very selfish person, her world would just make us into a society where only we the individual matters. Her world would not take care of the poor or have any social programs, it would be disaterous.

We would just end up being slaves to giant corporations who were allowed to gain political power because they were left unchecked by the government. And the worst thing is our society would cause us to be selfish people without morals. There would be serious consequences.

Ayn Rand was a hypocrite aswell, she lived off of medicare and other social programs.

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MrPraline

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#33 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
And somewhat relevant for people here supporting her, taken from the very real "Ayn Rand Institute": Spoiler'd because long [spoiler]

Q: What do you think of the Libertarian movement? [FHF: The Moratorium on Brains, 1971] AR: All kinds of people today call themselves libertarians, especially something calling itself the New Right, which consists of hippies, except that theyre anarchists instead of collectivists. But of course, anarchists are collectivists. Capitalism is the one system that requires absolute objective law, yet they want to combine capitalism and anarchism. That is worse than anything the New Left has proposed. Its a mockery of philosophy and ideology. They sling slogans and try to ride on two bandwagons. They want to be hippies, but dont want to preach collectivism, because those jobs are already taken. But anarchism is a logical outgrowth of the anti-intellectual side of collectivism. I could deal with a Marxist with a greater chance of reaching some kind of understanding, and with much greater respect. The anarchist is the scum of the intellectual world of the left, which has given them up. So the right picks up another leftist discard. Thats the Libertarian movement. Q: What do you think of the Libertarian Party? [FHF: A Nations Unity, 1972] AR: Id rather vote for Bob Hope, the Marx Brothers, or Jerry Lewis. I dont think theyre as funny as Professor Hospers and the Libertarian Party. If, at a time like this, John Hospers takes ten votes away from Nixon (which I doubt hell do), it would be a moral crime. I dont care about Nixon, and I care even less about Hospers. But this is no time to engage in publicity seeking, which all these crank political parties are doing. If you want to spread your ideas, do it through education. But dont run for Presidentor even dogcatcherif youre going to help McGovern. Q: What is your position on the Libertarian Party? [FHF: Censorship: Local and Express, 1973] AR: I dont want to waste too much time on it. Its a cheap attempt at publicity, which Libertarians wont get. Todays events, particularly Watergate, should teach anyone with amateur political notions that they cannot rush into politics in order to get publicity. The issue is so serious today, that to form a new party based in part on half-baked ideas, and in part on borrowed ideasI wont say from whomis irresponsible, and in todays context, nearly immoral. Q: Libertarians advocate the politics you advocate. So why are you opposed to the Libertarian Party? [FHF: Egalitarianism and Inflation, 1974] AR:They are not defenders of capitalism. Theyre a group of publicity seekers who rush into politics prematurely, because they allegedly want to educate people through a political campaign, which cant be done. Further, their leadership consists of men of every of persuasion, from religious conservatives to anarchists. Moreover, most of them are my enemies: they spend their time denouncing me, while plagiarizing my ideas. Now, I think its a bad beginning for an allegedly pro-capitalist party to start by stealing ideas. Q: Have you ever heard of [Libertarian presidential candidate] Roger MacBride? [FHF: ? 1976] AR: My answer should be, I havent. Theres nothing to hear. I have been maintaining in everything I have said and written, that the trouble in the world today is philosophical; that only the right philosophy can save us. Now here is a party that plagiarizes some of my ideas, mixes it with the exact oppositewith religionists, anarchists, and just about every intellectual misfit and scum they can findand they call themselves Libertarians, and run for office. I dislike Reagan and Carter; Im not too enthusiastic about the other candidates. But the worst of them are giants compared to anybody who would attempt something as un-philosophical, low, and pragmatic as the Libertarian Party. It is the last insult to ideas and philosophical consistency. Q: Do you think Libertarians communicate the ideas of freedom and capitalism effectively? [Q&A following LPs Objective Communication, Lecture 1, 1980] AR: I dont think plagiarists are effective. Ive read nothing by a Libertarian (when I read them, in the early years) that wasnt my ideas badly mishandledi.e., had the teeth pulled out of themwith no credit given. I didnt know whether I should be glad that no credit was given, or disgusted. I felt both. They are perhaps the worst political group today, because they can do the most harm to capitalism, by making it disreputable. Q: Why dont you approve of the Libertarians, thousands of whom are loyal readers of your works? [FHF: The Age of Mediocrity, 1981] AR: Because Libertarians are a monstrous, disgusting bunch of people: they plagiarize my ideas when that fits their purpose, and they denounce me in a more vicious manner than any communist publication, when that fits their purpose. They are lower than any pragmatists, and what they hold against Objectivism is morality. Theyd like to have an amoral political program. Q: The Libertarians are providing intermediate steps toward your goals. Why dont you support them? [Ibid., 1981] AR: Please dont tell me theyre pursuing my goals. I have not asked for, nor do I accept, the help of intellectual cranks. I want philosophically educated people: those who understand ideas, care about ideas, and spread the right ideas. Thats how my philosophy will spread, just as philosophy has throughout all history: by means of people who understand and teach it to others. Further, it should be clear that I do not endorse the filthy slogan, The end justifies the means. That was originated by the Jesuits, and accepted enthusiastically by Communists and Nazis. The end does not justify the means; you cannot achieve anything good by evil means. Finally, the Libertarians arent worthy of being the means to any end, let alone the end of spreading Objectivism.

[/spoiler]
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GreySeal9

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#34 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"] I'd say they were quite reasonable myself. kingkong0124

To be fair, you're not really smart enough to judge how reasonable your sources are.

Lol, okay bro. :roll:

To be fair, you know deep down that I'm right.

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Andrew_Xavier

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#35 Andrew_Xavier
Member since 2007 • 9625 Posts

The article is crap, but Ayn Rand is bloody scum. Fascist, racist scum.

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Rhazakna

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#37 Rhazakna
Member since 2004 • 11022 Posts
Who in this thread understands what Rand meant when she talked about "selfishness" and "altruism"? Evidently no one. I don't like Ayn Rand, but this is just another totally uninformed critique that latches on to the terms she used without understanding how she defined them. Anyone who mentions Greenspan's policies to attack Rand is dishonest or stupid. How many of you have actually read what she wrote? I have yet to see a left wing critique of what she actually believed in terms of philosophy, and this garbage article is no exception.
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Laihendi

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#38 Laihendi
Member since 2009 • 5872 Posts

The article is crap, but Ayn Rand is bloody scum. Fascist, racist scum.

Andrew_Xavier
Unless I'm mistaken, she was very strongly opposed to both fascism and racism.
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#40 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

[QUOTE="Andrew_Xavier"]

The article is crap, but Ayn Rand is bloody scum. Fascist, racist scum.

Laihendi

Unless I'm mistaken, she was very strongly opposed to both fascism and racism.

Just like all fascists and racists claim to be. Just read her comments about Spanish colonization of America or the Israeli Arab conflict and you'll see her racism and fascism.

[L]et's suppose they ["native Americans"] were all beautifuly innocent savages -- which they certainly were not. What were they fighting for, in opposing the white man on this continent [North America]? For their wish to continue a primitive existence; for their "right" to keep part of the earth untouched -- to keep everybody out so they could live like animals or cavemen. [Compared to that, any] European who brought with him an element of civilization had the right to take over this continent [North America], and it's great that some of them did. The racist Indians today -- those who condemn America -- do not respect individual rights.

http://objectivistanswers.com/questions/3132/what-are-the-rights-of-undeveloped-cultures-and-their-people

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bobaban

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#41 bobaban
Member since 2005 • 10560 Posts
Did you people actually read the fountainhead?
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AdamPA1006

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#42 AdamPA1006
Member since 2004 • 6422 Posts
[QUOTE="Laihendi"]What is wrong with selfishness? What is wrong with being concerned with yourself? If you're not concerned with yourself, then who will be? Someone has to make sure you have food, housing, and whatever else you need to live a decent life (an education, for example). It seems rational for each of us to be responsible for ourselves, rather than hope that some other person will take care of us. If you are not responsible for yourself, you are a burden on someone else. You cannot be responsible for yourself without being concerned with yourself. So again, what is wrong with selfishness?kuraimen
Have fun getting food, housing and education all by yourself. You should start by getting the land to cultivate your own food and build your own house with your own materials. Then you have to come up with every theory and technology ever to educate yourself. You can start by learning to make fire alone. If you don't want helping others then don't use what others do or did to help yourself.

I dont need the government to get any of those things. Private farmers and shops, privite companies building housing for me, private schools. ( If i was allowed, use my school tax for private school)
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kuraimen

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#43 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
[QUOTE="Rhazakna"]Who in this thread understands what Rand meant when she talked about "selfishness" and "altruism"? Evidently no one. I don't like Ayn Rand, but this is just another totally uninformed critique that latches on to the terms she used without understanding how she defined them. Anyone who mentions Greenspan's policies to attack Rand is dishonest or stupid. How many of you have actually read what she wrote? I have yet to see a left wing critique of what she actually believed in terms of philosophy, and this garbage article is no exception.

Here is a great philosophical critique of her views. I don't usually post this kind of articles here because most of OT would ignore them frankly. 8 central points are easier to digest. The Lesbian Session by Slavoj Zizek http://www.lacan.com/symptom13/?p=110
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ghoklebutter

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#44 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts

[spoiler]

But anarchism is a logical outgrowth of the anti-intellectual side of collectivismMrPraline

[/spoiler]

rofl what

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Andrew_Xavier

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#45 Andrew_Xavier
Member since 2007 • 9625 Posts
[QUOTE="Andrew_Xavier"]

The article is crap, but Ayn Rand is bloody scum. Fascist, racist scum.

Laihendi
Unless I'm mistaken, she was very strongly opposed to both fascism and racism.

She was certainly racist, and while crypto-fascist is more likely, the point stands. She also opposed public schools, taxes of any form, complete privatization of all industries, minimum wage, child labor laws... She was pro-child pornography, and believed anyone drafted into military service should be charged and executed if they killed anyone during said service...not voluntary, she believed we ought to kill people forced into military service. But yeah, she was a role model to us all.
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DroidPhysX

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#46 DroidPhysX
Member since 2010 • 17098 Posts
An objectivist that collected government benefits.
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Andrew_Xavier

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#47 Andrew_Xavier
Member since 2007 • 9625 Posts
Did you people actually read the fountainhead? bobaban
Everyone here was 12 once, so I assume yes. I put it in the same category as twilight: Books for tweens.
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Rhazakna

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#48 Rhazakna
Member since 2004 • 11022 Posts
[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Rhazakna"]Who in this thread understands what Rand meant when she talked about "selfishness" and "altruism"? Evidently no one. I don't like Ayn Rand, but this is just another totally uninformed critique that latches on to the terms she used without understanding how she defined them. Anyone who mentions Greenspan's policies to attack Rand is dishonest or stupid. How many of you have actually read what she wrote? I have yet to see a left wing critique of what she actually believed in terms of philosophy, and this garbage article is no exception.

Here is a great philosophical critique of her views. I don't usually post this kind of articles here because most of OT would ignore them frankly. 8 central points are easier to digest. The Lesbian Session by Slavoj Zizek http://www.lacan.com/symptom13/?p=110

I haven't read her fiction because it isn't necessary to understand Objectivism (and I don't care for her writing). I can't say if the discussion about her fictional work is true. However that critique is very shallow and doesn't address most of what comprises Objectivism. Where is the critique of the epistemology, the metaphysics, the ethical theory? This is just a criticism of how Rand saw the capitalists in society,or at least how it was presented in her books. It really isn't much of a critique of Objectivism. I suppose you could argue that it tries to critique her ethics, but it isn't very thorough at all. The fact that you thought that terrible article you posted and this mediocre critique are damning in any way makes me think you don't understand Rand at all. You've shown no evidence that you do. Did you ever try to understand Objectivism or do you just look at criticism? Considering your apparent ignorance on the subject, it seems to be the latter. Understanding any philosophy through its critics will never lead anyone to understanding the ideas.
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Rhazakna

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#49 Rhazakna
Member since 2004 • 11022 Posts
[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="Andrew_Xavier"]

The article is crap, but Ayn Rand is bloody scum. Fascist, racist scum.

Andrew_Xavier
Unless I'm mistaken, she was very strongly opposed to both fascism and racism.

She was certainly racist, and while crypto-fascist is more likely, the point stands. She also opposed public schools, taxes of any form, complete privatization of all industries, minimum wage, child labor laws... She was pro-child pornography, and believed anyone drafted into military service should be charged and executed if they killed anyone during said service...not voluntary, she believed we ought to kill people forced into military service. But yeah, she was a role model to us all.

Yes, because fascists are just so anti-tax, and against government. There's lots to critique about Rand's ideas, but her ideas were not close to Fascism. You dont know what fascism is if you think that.
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Laihendi

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#50 Laihendi
Member since 2009 • 5872 Posts
[QUOTE="Laihendi"]What is wrong with selfishness? What is wrong with being concerned with yourself? If you're not concerned with yourself, then who will be? Someone has to make sure you have food, housing, and whatever else you need to live a decent life (an education, for example). It seems rational for each of us to be responsible for ourselves, rather than hope that some other person will take care of us. If you are not responsible for yourself, you are a burden on someone else. You cannot be responsible for yourself without being concerned with yourself. So again, what is wrong with selfishness?kuraimen
Have fun getting food, housing and education all by yourself. You should start by getting the land to cultivate your own food and build your own house with your own materials. Then you have to come up with every theory and technology ever to educate yourself. You can start by learning to make fire alone. If you don't want helping others then don't use what others do or did to help yourself.

Hmm... or I can just engage in voluntary trade with someone who has things I need. He provides me with something of value in exchange for something of value. An example of me not taking a responsibility for myself would be letting the government pay for all of those things for me by taxing other people, while I lay in bed posting on OT forums.