Poland approves forcible castration for paedophiles

Exactly, so how is he wrong? If people commit a serious crime then they put their ownlife on the line, and that is their own fault and their own problem. Criminals can murder and rape and be allowed to live. The punishment for muder will never be true justice as long as the murderer remains alive, presuming it was a murder that was in cold blood and with no real convincing motives. I see no problem with having these people killed if it means more space in prisons and less costs, but that isn't allways the case. Deathis the consequence of many actions, why should it not be the consequence of causing it to another?

WasntAvailable

Just because its fine by you, doesnt mean its fine at all.

That's completely absurd, people can't help if they find children sexually attractive, should we castrate homosexuals because they find the opposite sex attractive? People need to stop discriminating against pedophiles, it's getting ****ing out of hand.

Yandere

If you have sex with a child, you are screwed up in the head and need to be put in a mental institution.

But not castrated.

That's completely absurd, people can't help if they find children sexually attractive, should we castrate homosexuals because they find the opposite sex attractive? People need to stop discriminating against pedophiles, it's getting ****ing out of hand.

Yandere

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"] Ploy? I was echoing TC's exact words and argument.

*Edit* and why on Earth would I be carrying out some sort of ploy to gain sympathy for paedophiles? That's one of the most bizarrely paranoid snap judgements I've come across.

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

That's completely absurd, people can't help if they find children sexually attractive, should we castrate homosexuals because they find the opposite sex attractive? People need to stop discriminating against pedophiles, it's getting ****ing out of hand.

guynamedbilly

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]I dont pretend either if thats what you are implying.

BUT often, in cases of resetting the punishment for a certain crime, the government will take into consideration what the general population wants and may be affected by it. ;)

And thats not so hard to know.

Also the last point you made is so wrong. The same phrase you said could be applied to people who would be punished with the death penalty. "If they feel hard done by this then they shouldnt have commited the crime".

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"] Well obviously you were, by saying "peadophiles are humans too...", you're clearly demonstrating that you think that the punishment is too harsh, and thus some form of sympathy should be shown towards the paedophiles, who you think have been done wrong by, if they had been castrated. Nothing paranoid about that at all -- it is the words that you said.MetalGear_Ninty

*edit* and of course we have something in common with paedophiles. Do you really see them as an alien species?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"] Well obviously you were, by saying "peadophiles are humans too...", you're clearly demonstrating that you think that the punishment is too harsh, and thus some form of sympathy should be shown towards the paedophiles, who you think have been done wrong by, if they had been castrated. Nothing paranoid about that at all -- it is the words that you said.MetalGear_Ninty

Jimmyjammer, to me, just said that they shouldnt be thought of as possessed humans or treated like complete garbage.

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"][QUOTE="Yandere"]

That's completely absurd, people can't help if they find children sexually attractive, should we castrate homosexuals because they find the opposite sex attractive? People need to stop discriminating against pedophiles, it's getting ****ing out of hand.

Teenaged

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

That's completely absurd, people can't help if they find children sexually attractive, should we castrate homosexuals because they find the opposite sex attractive? People need to stop discriminating against pedophiles, it's getting ****ing out of hand.

guynamedbilly

Your assuming pedophiles go outside with all black, watch kids play on the playground then rape them. The majority of pedophiles don't rape, the majority of pedophiles are just like anyone else with their sexual preferences, when ever they're shown on the mainstream media it's about rape or a crime thus giving a bad image.

And to the poster above, what gives you the right to say they belong in a metal institution? Just because you don't share the same paraphilia as them doesn't make them crazy.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"] Well obviously you were pretending you knew the intentions of the Polish goverment, or you wouldn't have called it retributive. :wink:MetalGear_Ninty

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"] Ploy? I was echoing TC's exact words and argument.

*Edit* and why on Earth would I be carrying out some sort of ploy to gain sympathy for paedophiles? That's one of the most bizarrely paranoid snap judgements I've come across.

jimmyjammer69

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"] Ploy? I was echoing TC's exact words and argument.

*Edit* and why on Earth would I be carrying out some sort of ploy to gain sympathy for paedophiles? That's one of the most bizarrely paranoid snap judgements I've come across.

Teenaged

Right on. I find it a little ironic that the same people who might be morally outraged over countires that cut thieves' hands off are so indifferent or even in favor of castrating pedophiles.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"] I can't help that I find women attractive. Should I be allowed to go have sex at any woman I pass on the street? Pedophilia laws are based on the assumption that the children aren't mentally capable of accepting the responsibility for their actions, so it's involuntarily when you have relations with them. I don't rape every woman I pass, pedophiles shouldn't act on their impulses either.guynamedbilly

"I can't help that I find women attractive.Should I be allowed to go have sex at any woman I pass on the street?"

In response to Yandere's argument that attraction to little children is not something a pedophile can control.

I dont agree with all of Yandere's post mind you, but he deffinetely didnt advocate such a thing.

It would be more humane to execute them

That's completely absurd, people can't help if they find children sexually attractive, should we castrate homosexuals because they find the opposite sex attractive? People need to stop discriminating against pedophiles, it's getting ****ing out of hand.Yandere

You must've missed the part about "convicted of raping children". Poland isn't going to start neutering people who haven't been convicted of anything.

Your assuming pedophiles go outside with all black, watch kids play on the playground then rape them.Yandere

And to the poster above, what gives you the right to say they belong in a metal institution? Just because you don't share the same paraphilia as them doesn't make them crazy.

Yandere

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]I think I explained quite clearly why I said what I said. ;)

Your assuming pedophiles go outside with all black, watch kids play on the playground then rape them. The majority of pedophiles don't rape, the majority of pedophiles are just like anyone else with their sexual preferences, when ever they're shown on the mainstream media it's about rape or a crime thus giving a bad image.

And to the poster above, what gives you the right to say they belong in a metal institution? Just because you don't share the same paraphilia as them doesn't make them crazy.

Yandere

Actually it somewhat does.

[QUOTE="WasntAvailable"]

Exactly, so how is he wrong? If people commit a serious crime then they put their ownlife on the line, and that is their own fault and their own problem. Criminals can murder and rape and be allowed to live. The punishment for muder will never be true justice as long as the murderer remains alive, presuming it was a murder that was in cold blood and with no real convincing motives. I see no problem with having these people killed if it means more space in prisons and less costs, but that isn't allways the case. Deathis the consequence of many actions, why should it not be the consequence of causing it to another?

Teenaged

Just because its fine by you, doesnt mean its fine at all.

And what would these drawbacks be? For crime to be fairly punished the punishment must be equal to the crime. In most circumstances, and with most crimes, this is the case. In fact quite often the punishment for a crime will exceed the seriousness of the crime commited. Why should murder be an exception to this rule? You should not be allowedthe full extent of yourhuman rights if you choose to take away human rightsfrom others. The only two problems are the cost of punishment and the protestors. You can ignore one of those issues, but the other one remains.

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

And to the poster above, what gives you the right to say they belong in a metal institution? Just because you don't share the same paraphilia as them doesn't make them crazy.

markop2003

I don't believe any paraphilia could be counted as a mental disorder, unless it's taken into a extreme.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

Well obviously you were, by saying "peadophiles are humans too...", you're clearly demonstrating that you think that the punishment is too harsh, and thus some form of sympathy should be shown towards the paedophiles, who you think have been done wrong by, if they had been castrated. Nothing paranoid about that at all -- it is the words that you said.MetalGear_Ninty

Right on. I find it a little ironic that the same people who might be morally outraged over countires that cut thieves' hands off are so indifferent or even in favor of castrating pedophiles.

That's completely absurd, people can't help if they find children sexually attractive, should we castrate homosexuals because they find the opposite sex attractive? People need to stop discriminating against pedophiles, it's getting ****ing out of hand.

Yandere

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

Your assuming pedophiles go outside with all black, watch kids play on the playground then rape them. The majority of pedophiles don't rape, the majority of pedophiles are just like anyone else with their sexual preferences, when ever they're shown on the mainstream media it's about rape or a crime thus giving a bad image.

And to the poster above, what gives you the right to say they belong in a metal institution? Just because you don't share the same paraphilia as them doesn't make them crazy.

Dystopian-X

Actually it somewhat does.

Then what, the majority of teenage boys are crazy because they have pictophilia?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"] Well obviously you were, by saying "peadophiles are humans too...", you're clearly demonstrating that you think that the punishment is too harsh, and thus some form of sympathy should be shown towards the paedophiles, who you think have been done wrong by, if they had been castrated. Nothing paranoid about that at all -- it is the words that you said.theone86

Right on. I find it a little ironic that the same people who might be morally outraged over countires that cut thieves' hands off are so indifferent or even in favor of castrating pedophiles.

The problem with that is the punishment does not fit the crime. Having your hands removed for stealing a loaf of bread? I think that's an example of a badly implemented law. I would rather lose the use ofmy genitals than my two hands. Frankly, they are alot more important. For your example to work you would have to consider a sexual predator equivelant (Or less)to a theif.

The majority of the argument here is that some people are using pedophilia as the illegal act of having relations with a minor and some are using the psychological definition.

There's no reason to argue over confusion. Until Poland says they are going to interview all Polish citizens to determine if they are pedophiles, then I think we have to accept the legal definition.

Then what, the majority of teenage boys are crazy because they have pictophilia?

Yandere

Right on. I find it a little ironic that the same people who might be morally outraged over countires that cut thieves' hands off are so indifferent or even in favor of castrating pedophiles.

theone86

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

That's completely absurd, people can't help if they find children sexually attractive, should we castrate homosexuals because they find the opposite sex attractive? People need to stop discriminating against pedophiles, it's getting ****ing out of hand.

majoras_wrath

I was using homosexuality as example because it's a commonly known sexual preference, and until recently was viewed as a paraphilia. Quite frankly the wording of some of your post is hard to work out so I can't really say anything beyond this.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"] Yeah, but you still assumed... :wink:MetalGear_Ninty

In the case it was actual castration I would have more reasons to accuse them of a retributive penalty system since knowing chemical castration is available and they chose the other over the checmial c., sure says a lot.

Also, never does one have enough samples to judge a situation of a specific case. You cant actually accuse of not having knowledge for what going on all around the world to make an assumption that is not far-fetched and it is actually is very possible.

Also by saying that the penalty system becomes retributive has nothing to do with the intentions of anyone who had a say in its imposal. The system itself does become retributional and that can be judged by seeing the system itself without examining factors like, the government which imposed it.

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

Then what, the majority of teenage boys are crazy because they have pictophilia?

Dystopian-X

Sure they're disorders as they aren't "of the ordinary", but I don't associate that with insanity.

I'm in support of this, but I still don't think it solves the problem. As others have said, the urges are still there. I honestly do not believe these people are curable so anything that lessens their chances of reoffending is fine by me.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]It is a quite safe assumption, judging both by the USA and what I see in my country. Poland is not a country that you can cIassify as a special case for a country so much that the principles on which you base your assumptions are invalid.

In the case it was actual castration I would have more reasons to accuse them of a retributive penalty system since knowing chemical castration is available and they chose the other over the checmial c., sure says a lot.

Also, never does one have enough samples to judge a situation of a specific case. You cant actually accuse of not having knowledge for what going on all around the world to make an assumption that is not far-fetched and it is actually is very possible.

Also by saying that the penalty system becomes retributive has nothing to do with the intentions of anyone who had a say in its imposal. The system itself does become retributional and that can be judged by seeing the system itself without examining factors like, the government which imposed it.

And what would these drawbacks be? For crime to be fairly punished the punishment must be equal to the crime. In most circumstances, and with most crimes, this is the case. In fact quite often the punishment for a crime will exceed the seriousness of the crime commited. Why should murder be an exception to this rule? You should not be allowedthe full extent of yourhuman rights if you choose to take away human rightsfrom others. The only two problems are the cost of punishment and the protestors. You can ignore one of those issues, but the other one remains.

WasntAvailable

• It is a punishment that cant be reversed
• In case of error you have sentenced an innocent man to death. And no, having DNA examinations in our times does not make that risk much lower cause if that were the case then we would always be catching the bad guys no matter the case.
• We are sto0ping to the level of the criminals
• It has been proven to not reduce crime rates, not even to the point where it justifies the extreme character of the punishment

[QUOTE="Dystopian-X"]

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

Then what, the majority of teenage boys are crazy because they have pictophilia?

Yandere

Sure they're disorders as they aren't "of the ordinary", but I don't associate that with insanity.

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]I'm pretty sure I heard about this going on in America too. Maybe it was as a voluntary alternative to jail time though.majwill24

I hope more common sense laws like this can be passed around the world, now that the influence of the flawed "human rights" doctrine is declining. This can be just the beginning for more nations to deal with degenerates and lowlifes with logic reason.

Common sense =/= logic and reason

Case in point: Castration (chemical or physical) does not have much of an effect on sex offenders. Castration is really only effective for eradicating normal sexual desires. A castrated pedophile will still have the urges and desires that got them in trouble in the first place except they'll be diminished. And there's a BIG difference between "diminished urges and desires" and "no urges and desires". Physical and chemical castration have been tried before in many countries as an attempt to combat pedophilia. There's a reason most of those same countries stopped the practice and it's not necessarily because of human rights. If it actually did work every country in the world would be doing it.

What's really needed is for governments to start encouraging research on pedophilia and other paraphilias. As it stands right now there's very little research being done and as a result we know very little about sexual attraction disorders. It's really frustrating too because it's obvious to anyone who looks at the research that has been done that there is a ton of leads to go on. With enough scientists working on the problem we could probably make some very sizeable headway toward developing a truly effective treatment or cure within 10-20 years.

I don't konw exactly what you mena when you say you can judge a measure to be retributive by seeing the system itself. I'm not sure what you mean there.MetalGear_Ninty

What if the guy is innocent?

[QUOTE="Yandere"]

[QUOTE="Dystopian-X"] Not exactly "ooo crazy" but all paraphilias count as disorders. And that's kind of a generalization you got there too :p

jimmyjammer69

Sure they're disorders as they aren't "of the ordinary", but I don't associate that with insanity.

I don't see how something like dendrophilia can be destructive to society, the only ones that I can see being "destructive" is sadism and zoosadism, though I'm a sexual sadist and I don't go around killing anyone.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I don't konw exactly what you mena when you say you can judge a measure to be retributive by seeing the system itself. I'm not sure what you mean there.Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I don't konw exactly what you mena when you say you can judge a measure to be retributive by seeing the system itself. I'm not sure what you mean there.MetalGear_Ninty

And how do I judge its unreasonable?

If they had chosen actual castration, then they chose a method over other methods who have the effect of deterring one's sexual urges. Clearly then the punishment doesnt aim in just making sure the criminal doesnt do it again but also in "scarring" him/her physically for the rest of their lives.

[QUOTE="WasntAvailable"]

And what would these drawbacks be? For crime to be fairly punished the punishment must be equal to the crime. In most circumstances, and with most crimes, this is the case. In fact quite often the punishment for a crime will exceed the seriousness of the crime commited. Why should murder be an exception to this rule? You should not be allowedthe full extent of yourhuman rights if you choose to take away human rightsfrom others. The only two problems are the cost of punishment and the protestors. You can ignore one of those issues, but the other one remains.

Teenaged

• It is a punishment that cant be reversed
• In case of error you have sentenced an innocent man to death. And no, having DNA examinations in our times does not make that risk much lower cause if that were the case then we would always be catching the bad guys no matter the case.
• We are sto0ping to the level of the criminals
• It has been proven to not reduce crime rates, not even to the point where it justifies the extreme character of the punishment

That's where the cost comes in. They have to be entirely sure that the conviction is correct. There is allways a chance someone could have been innocent due to a very unlikely mistake, but so much goes into making sure that they are proven guilty with as much evidence as possible that it's very unlikely. And no we do not stoop to the level of a criminal simply by killing a murderer. There's a good chance that when a sentence is served thatpersonwill recommit the crime they commited in the first place. This is such a common occurance it's scary. By killing a proven murderer a risk is removed, I see no problem with this. Everything has been proven to not do something, or do whatever. The problem is that it's never going to be accurate. Even if you consider that to be the case that it will have no effect on crime rates at all, it reduces the issues of overcrowding. I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced by those reasons at all. It's just a list of some unlikely mabyes. It's a case of the postitives outweigh the negatives, until you factor in the costs and then it becomes a bit unrealistic. Price is the only issue I consider a realistic problem.

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"][QUOTE="Yandere"]

Sure they're disorders as they aren't "of the ordinary", but I don't associate that with insanity.

Yandere

I don't see how something like dendrophilia can be destructive to society, the only ones that I can see being "destructive" is sadism and zoosadism, though I'm a sexual sadist and I don't go around killing anyone.

Can't help but to laugh at the tree lover thing lol but anyway not everyone with a disorder acts the same way and these can lead to harm someone's life one way or the other.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]I dont need to know if the people that imposed the system were aiming in making it retrubitve. What matters is what the system IS not what the people who created might have had in mind.

And how do I judge its unreasonable?

If they had chosen actual castration, then they chose a method over other methods who have the effect of deterring one's sexual urges. Clearly then the punishment doesnt aim in just making sure the criminal doesnt do it again but also in "scarring" him/her physically for the rest of their lives.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

• It is a punishment that cant be reversed
• In case of error you have sentenced an innocent man to death. And no, having DNA examinations in our times does not make that risk much lower cause if that were the case then we would always be catching the bad guys no matter the case.
• We are sto0ping to the level of the criminals
• It has been proven to not reduce crime rates, not even to the point where it justifies the extreme character of the punishment

WasntAvailable

1. That's where the cost comes in. They have to be entirely sure that the conviction is correct. There is allways a chance someone could have been innocent due to a very unlikely mistake, but so much goes into making sure that they are proven guilty with as much evidence as possible that it's very unlikely. 2. And no we do not stoop to the level of a criminal simply by killing a murderer. 3. There's a good chance that when a sentence is served thatpersonwill recommit the crime they commited in the first place. This is such a common occurance it's scary. By killing a proven murderer a risk is removed, I see no problem with this. 4. Everything has been proven to not do something, or do whatever. The problem is that it's never going to be accurate. 5. Even if you consider that to be the case that it will have no effect on crime rates at all, 6. it reduces the issues of overcrowding. I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced by those reasons at all. It's just a list of some unlikely mabyes. It's a case of the postitives outweigh the negatives, 7. until you factor in the costs and then it becomes a bit unrealistic. Price is the only issue I consider a realistic problem.

1. This is wishful thinking. You cannot know that the risk is miniscule.

2. Yes you do. There are alternatives like....

3. Locking them up for life. ;)

4. With such an extreme measure I wont settle with "Oh well, what can you do, nothing is perfect".

5. Its not how I feel. I have been informed on statistics on the issue. Unfortunately not internet sources (yes I know thats convenient).

6. Overcrowding? Overcrowding???? Are you serious???????????? This is how you want to fight overcrowiding? By letting a faulty system kill as many as it can?

7. I am sad that only the cost makes you see it as a wrong measure. And I dont mean to be sarcastic here.

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"][QUOTE="Yandere"]

That's completely absurd, people can't help if they find children sexually attractive, should we castrate homosexuals because they find the opposite sex attractive? People need to stop discriminating against pedophiles, it's getting ****ing out of hand.

Yandere

Your assuming pedophiles go outside with all black, watch kids play on the playground then rape them. The majority of pedophiles don't rape, the majority of pedophiles are just like anyone else with their sexual preferences, when ever they're shown on the mainstream media it's about rape or a crime thus giving a bad image.

And to the poster above, what gives you the right to say they belong in a metal institution? Just because you don't share the same paraphilia as them doesn't make them crazy.

However, if it is a 15 year old, and someone 18 or older tries, then yes they are crazy. We all have urges spread across countless things. If a pedophile is unable to resist his urges to the point of risking ruining an entire life, be it their own, by not following straight forward laws, then there is an issue there. Most people that can "control", can easily diffuse the situation as "you do it now, you might never again" and error on the side of the most gain.

If they cannot control themselves, then they cannot determine the most simplistic aspects of being involved in society, and thus, need "help".