Question about Islam.

[QUOTE="Asim90"]

Absolute nonsense. Why do you think there are different schools of thought? Different people can have different interprations and opinions, which is why discussion is encouraged. The Qur'an clearly says there is no compulsion in religion which renders your whole point moot.

ghoklebutter

Of course there are different, valid interpretations of Islam. That doesn't refute my point, though.

All I'm saying is that Islam prohibits criticism of the established teachings. That means that if I have a problem with sexual slavery and wife-beating, I'm not a Muslim.

You are clearly confused. Different schools establish different teachings, there isn't a one rule fits all. The fact that it says there is no compulsion in religion is clear proof that people are not forced to agree. Slavery and wife beating? Really? Those are problems that occur in every part of the world and are human problems, what does that have to do with Islam.

The Prophet Muhammed freed thousands of slaves and never hit a woman. You are naive.

Then I guess it's a good thing I'm not Muslim...Nuck81

But do you believe in the Prophet Mohammad, don't you, as part of your Bahai faith?

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]Then I guess it's a good thing I'm not Muslim...RationalAtheist

But do you believe in the Prophet Mohammad, don't you, as part of your Bahai faith?

[QUOTE="yanbuco2712"]

[QUOTE="Nuck81"] I take exception to this from a logic and common sense point of view. Rape is never the fault of the woman. I work in a High School and trust me I seen plenty of 16 year olds and plenty of non modest outfits yet I have never raped anyone or had sex with a 16 year old girl in my adulthood. I agree that girls should dress modestly from a self respect point of view, but to demand that women are modest because it will reduce rape is ludicrous.Nuck81

Huh?

Woman shows skin>sexual desire is awakend>desire to fulfill said desire>worst case scenario=rape crime

or to put it simply, heres an example: you're hungry, your wife/mom/whatever is still cooking and wont be finished for 30 minutes, and you walk around a street trying to pass the time, suddenly: you look at a restaurant where the finest foods are being served, and you see people enjoying it: you remember your hunger, and wish you were eating said food. If you hadn't seen the food, you wouldnt have remembered your hunger as quickley.

Likewise, if a man sees an unmodestly dressed woman: he, in most cases, remembers his sexual desires. Which CAN POSSIBELY, I say CAN POSSIBELY cause rape, Islam doesnt allow such a possibility.

And if I may speak for myself, I dont usually get aroused from seeing a woman's face, but from her other "assets".

Maybe you can, but not everyone does. Have you never read the comments on a "music video" like, for example, Shakira's "She Wolf", describing how so many viewers want to bang her? Like I said, the possibility of a disaster is dangerous, and eliminiating any chance of it is always preferable in any situation.

[QUOTE="Nuck81"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Community consensus is you didn't understand what you read. But I don't think trying again will help in your case.

RationalAtheist

...aside from the justification the Pope gave for exceptional circumstances...

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

[QUOTE="Nuck81"] LOL, you and one other guy? You're incorrect. Condom use in the Catholic Church is a Sin.Nuck81

...aside from the justification the Pope gave for exceptional circumstances...

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]Then I guess it's a good thing I'm not Muslim...RationalAtheist

But do you believe in the Prophet Mohammad, don't you, as part of your Bahai faith?

You are clearly confused. Different schools establish different teachings, there isn't a one rule fits all. The fact that it says there is no compulsion in religion is clear proof that people are not forced to agree. Slavery and wife beating? Really? Those are problems that occur in every part of the world and are human problems, what does that have to do with Islam.

The Prophet Muhammed freed thousands of slaves and never hit a woman. You are naive.

Asim90

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

[QUOTE="Nuck81"] LOL, you and one other guy? You're incorrect. Condom use in the Catholic Church is a Sin.Nuck81

...aside from the justification the Pope gave for exceptional circumstances...

You don't appear to know what justification and exceptional mean, do you?

Have you never read the comments on a "music video" like, for example, Shakira's "She Wolf", describing how so many viewers want to bang her? Like I said, the possibility of a disaster is dangerous, and eliminiating any chance of it is always preferable in any situation.

yanbuco2712

I believe that He was a manifestation of God's will for his time and Geography. I believe the same of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Buddha, Krishna and the Bab, among others as well.Nuck81

Why not include the Polytheistic religions too? Why would they be wrong?

Why believe the manifestations, yet feel free to criticise their legacies?

What about Jo Smith? Scientology? Where does faith end with you? Will you believe anything?

Maybe you can, but not everyone does. Have you never read the comments on a "music video" like, for example, Shakira's "She Wolf", describing how so many viewers want to bang her? Like I said, the possibility of a disaster is dangerous, and eliminiating any chance of it is always preferable in any situation.

yanbuco2712

[QUOTE="yanbuco2712"]

Have you never read the comments on a "music video" like, for example, Shakira's "She Wolf", describing how so many viewers want to bang her? Like I said, the possibility of a disaster is dangerous, and eliminiating any chance of it is always preferable in any situation.

ghoklebutter

[QUOTE="Asim90"]

You are clearly confused. Different schools establish different teachings, there isn't a one rule fits all. The fact that it says there is no compulsion in religion is clear proof that people are not forced to agree. Slavery and wife beating? Really? Those are problems that occur in every part of the world and are human problems, what does that have to do with Islam.

The Prophet Muhammed freed thousands of slaves and never hit a woman. You are naive.

ghoklebutter

So now a lack of proof constitutes proof? :lol: Oh you Islam bashers really have your own double standards you should be worrying about. "Just because..." you clearly want bad things to be true so you can revel in your ignorance. Good luck with that.

[QUOTE="Nuck81"][QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

...aside from the justification the Pope gave for exceptional circumstances...

LJS9502_basic

"He's not changing church teaching," Fessio said. "What he did say is if someone, a male prostitute for example, who decides to use a condom because he has some glimmer of moral responsibility to prevent disease, that could be a first step towards a greater moral attitude, better moral attitude to sexuality, but in itself the act is still immoral."

""I am sure we will not see a change either in this papacy or after this papacy," Fessio said. "The church's teaching is clear. The moral principles are quite solid and it's just a question of explaining it better to the people."

Does it say anywhere that Condom use is not a Sin?

easy one, kill them all.

i'm not 100% sure that is the answer but come-on it's religion, i have to at least be in the ballpark with kill them as the answer.

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="yanbuco2712"]

Have you never read the comments on a "music video" like, for example, Shakira's "She Wolf", describing how so many viewers want to bang her? Like I said, the possibility of a disaster is dangerous, and eliminiating any chance of it is always preferable in any situation.

yanbuco2712

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="Asim90"]

You are clearly confused. Different schools establish different teachings, there isn't a one rule fits all. The fact that it says there is no compulsion in religion is clear proof that people are not forced to agree. Slavery and wife beating? Really? Those are problems that occur in every part of the world and are human problems, what does that have to do with Islam.

The Prophet Muhammed freed thousands of slaves and never hit a woman. You are naive.

Asim90

So now a lack of proof constitutes proof? :lol: Oh you Islam bashers really have your own double standards you should be worrying about. "Just because..." you clearly want bad things to be true so you can revel in your ignorance. Good luck with that.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Nuck81"] Incorrect. According to the Pope It's still a sin, just the lesser of two evils.Nuck81

"He's not changing church teaching," Fessio said. "What he did say is if someone, a male prostitute for example, who decides to use a condom because he has some glimmer of moral responsibility to prevent disease, that could be a first step towards a greater moral attitude, better moral attitude to sexuality, but in itself the act is still immoral."

""I am sure we will not see a change either in this papacy or after this papacy," Fessio said. "The church's teaching is clear. The moral principles are quite solid and it's just a question of explaining it better to the people."

Does it say anywhere that Condom use is not a Sin?

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]I believe that He was a manifestation of God's will for his time and Geography. I believe the same of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Buddha, Krishna and the Bab, among others as well.RationalAtheist

Why not include the Polytheistic religions too? Why would they be wrong?

Why believe the manifestations, yet feel free to criticise their legacies?

What about Jo Smith? Scientology? Where does faith end with you? Will you believe anything?

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] :lol: Stand tall and go down with that sinking ship....LJS9502_basic

"He's not changing church teaching," Fessio said. "What he did say is if someone, a male prostitute for example, who decides to use a condom because he has some glimmer of moral responsibility to prevent disease, that could be a first step towards a greater moral attitude, better moral attitude to sexuality, but in itself the act is still immoral."

""I am sure we will not see a change either in this papacy or after this papacy," Fessio said. "The church's teaching is clear. The moral principles are quite solid and it's just a question of explaining it better to the people."

Does it say anywhere that Condom use is not a Sin?

[QUOTE="Asim90"]

You are clearly confused. Different schools establish different teachings, there isn't a one rule fits all. The fact that it says there is no compulsion in religion is clear proof that people are not forced to agree. Slavery and wife beating? Really? Those are problems that occur in every part of the world and are human problems, what does that have to do with Islam.

The Prophet Muhammed freed thousands of slaves and never hit a woman. You are naive.

ghoklebutter

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]I'll try this again. Maybe you will get it. Tell me at anytime is it stated that Condom use is not a sin.

Commentary on "Light of the World: The Pope, the Church and the Sign of the Times"

"The pope said that to prevent infection with HIV, for instance in the case of a male prostitute, a condom can be the first step in assuming moral responsibility. "

"The pope did not condone the use of condoms as birth control and he did not specifically mention female prostitutes. "

"The Vatican's position on contraception can be traced back more than 800 years when theologians argued against any form of sex not meant to produce children. "

"He's not changing church teaching," Fessio said. "What he did say is if someone, a male prostitute for example, who decides to use a condom because he has some glimmer of moral responsibility to prevent disease, that could be a first step towards a greater moral attitude, better moral attitude to sexuality, but in itself the act is still immoral."

""I am sure we will not see a change either in this papacy or after this papacy," Fessio said. "The church's teaching is clear. The moral principles are quite solid and it's just a question of explaining it better to the people."

Does it say anywhere that Condom use is not a Sin?

Nuck81

[QUOTE="Nuck81"][QUOTE="yanbuco2712"]

Huh?

Woman shows skin>sexual desire is awakend>desire to fulfill said desire>worst case scenario=rape crime

or to put it simply, heres an example: you're hungry, your wife/mom/whatever is still cooking and wont be finished for 30 minutes, and you walk around a street trying to pass the time, suddenly: you look at a restaurant where the finest foods are being served, and you see people enjoying it: you remember your hunger, and wish you were eating said food. If you hadn't seen the food, you wouldnt have remembered your hunger as quickley.

Likewise, if a man sees an unmodestly dressed woman: he, in most cases, remembers his sexual desires. Which CAN POSSIBELY, I say CAN POSSIBELY cause rape, Islam doesnt allow such a possibility.

And if I may speak for myself, I dont usually get aroused from seeing a woman's face, but from her other "assets".

yanbuco2712

Maybe you can, but not everyone does. Have you never read the comments on a "music video" like, for example, Shakira's "She Wolf", describing how so many viewers want to bang her? Like I said, the possibility of a disaster is dangerous, and eliminiating any chance of it is always preferable in any situation.

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]So you don't understand justification and exception? The Pope would NOT tell anyone at anytime to use a condom if it was sin. In the Catholic church...which you are not a member.....what the pope allows on earth is allowed in heaven...and the opposite. It comes from Scripture in the NT since you like that in religion threads where Jesus gives that authority. Matthew 18:18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

LJS9502_basic

Do you honestly not understand what this means? Or are you being intentionally obtuse just for trolling purpose? If you're trolling, I admit, you got me

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Nuck81"] Obviously you can't comprehend what you read, and what is being said. Using a Condom is a Sin according to the Pope.

Nuck81

Do you honestly not understand what this means? Or are you being intentionally obtuse just for trolling purpose? If you're trolling, I admit, you got me

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="Asim90"]

You are clearly confused. Different schools establish different teachings, there isn't a one rule fits all. The fact that it says there is no compulsion in religion is clear proof that people are not forced to agree. Slavery and wife beating? Really? Those are problems that occur in every part of the world and are human problems, what does that have to do with Islam.

The Prophet Muhammed freed thousands of slaves and never hit a woman. You are naive.

SaudiFury

Sshhh.. don't question him. He's clearly an Islamic Scholar who has studied the religion, can speak arabic and has a broad understanding of the religion and was taught by qualified teachers. OR, he's an internet troll who looks at quotes online through his troll goggles and plucks out whatever he can to match his troll agenda.

Sshhh.. don't question him. He's clearly an Islamic Scholar who has studied the religion, can speak arabic and has a broad understanding of the religion and was taught by qualified teachers. OR, he's an internet troll who looks at quotes online through his troll goggles and plucks out whatever he can to match his troll agenda.

Asim90

Polytheistic religions don't acknowledge the one true god. Joseph was a convicted criminal and known con man. He is not a manifestation. Scientology. LOL Do you worship Jedi and George Lucas? I don't understand what you mean by the other two questions. Where does Faith end with me? That doesn't make sense. Will I believe anything? No? Not sure what you are getting at.Nuck81

Couldn't Polytheistic religions be an interpretation of a single God though? If not, why not?

Can't ex-con-men also be prophets? Why wouln't Huxley be another prophet? Why not Jedi? Why did the prophets stop arriving all that time ago and not turn up more recently? Is it because they's be less credible?

It seems to me like you pick and choose stuff to believe, like picking cherries from a tree, for no other reason than that it suits you? You seem to demolish the very doctrine that supports your prophets.

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] One of us cannot comprehend what we read....and it's not me.

LJS9502_basic

Do you honestly not understand what this means? Or are you being intentionally obtuse just for trolling purpose? If you're trolling, I admit, you got me

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"] I said look that stuff up in the surat I mentioned. And just because Muhammad freed slaves, doesn't mean slavery was prohibited. Likewise, just because Muhammad probably didn't hit women (except, perhaps, Aisha) doesn't mean that the Qur'an has a verse clearly advising men to beat disobedient wives.Asim90

Sshhh.. don't question him. He's clearly an Islamic Scholar who has studied the religion, can speak arabic and has a broad understanding of the religion and was taught by qualified teachers. OR, he's an internet troll who looks at quotes online through his troll goggles and plucks out whatever he can to match his troll agenda.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Nuck81"] "He's not changing church teaching," Fessio said. "What he did say is if someone, a male prostitute for example, who decides to use a condom because he has some glimmer of moral responsibility to prevent disease, that could be a first step towards a greater moral attitude, better moral attitude to sexuality, but in itself the act is still immoral."

Do you honestly not understand what this means? Or are you being intentionally obtuse just for trolling purpose? If you're trolling, I admit, you got me

Nuck81

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]Polytheistic religions don't acknowledge the one true god. Joseph was a convicted criminal and known con man. He is not a manifestation. Scientology. LOL Do you worship Jedi and George Lucas? I don't understand what you mean by the other two questions. Where does Faith end with me? That doesn't make sense. Will I believe anything? No? Not sure what you are getting at.RationalAtheist

Couldn't Polytheistic religions be an interpretation of a single God though? If not, why not?

Can't ex-con-men also be prophets? Why wouln't Huxley be another prophet? Why not Jedi? Why did the prophets stop arriving all that time ago and not turn up more recently? Is it because they's be less credible?

It seems to me like you pick and choose stuff to believe, like picking cherries from a tree, for no other reason than that it suits you? You seem to demolish the very doctrine that supports your prophets.

[QUOTE="Nuck81"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Yes I do. But you don't. He's saying it's okay for a male prostitute to use a condom. That doesn't mean he agrees with promiscuity. He's not saying casual sex is fine BUT THAT IT'S OKAY, JUSTIFIED, AN EXCEPTION FOR A CONDOM TO BE USED. Which by Church doctrine means the use of the condom in that case is NOT a sin. Promiscuity still is. The more you know....LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="Asim90"]

Sshhh.. don't question him. He's clearly an Islamic Scholar who has studied the religion, can speak arabic and has a broad understanding of the religion and was taught by qualified teachers. OR, he's an internet troll who looks at quotes online through his troll goggles and plucks out whatever he can to match his troll agenda.

LJS9502_basic

Considering I have yet to meet a Muslim who has actually read the Qur'an, I don't think its a stretch. The problem with a lot of religious people is that they don't even know their own religions, they are simply in that faith because they were born into it.

Another funny thing is that Islam encourages teaching, it stresses that religion should be continued by scholars who are versed in the religion and teach it. Collective thought and interpration is encouraged for this reason.

Why do you think their prophet said "beware of extremism in religion because it is extremism in religion that destroyed the people before you". I simply don't buy all the fear mongering. I honestly believe that people today even in supposedly religious countries aren't even capable of understanding religion as it is intended.

I'm going to end my rant now.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]Polytheistic religions don't acknowledge the one true god. Joseph was a convicted criminal and known con man. He is not a manifestation. Scientology. LOL Do you worship Jedi and George Lucas? I don't understand what you mean by the other two questions. Where does Faith end with me? That doesn't make sense. Will I believe anything? No? Not sure what you are getting at.Nuck81

Couldn't Polytheistic religions be an interpretation of a single God though? If not, why not?

Can't ex-con-men also be prophets? Why wouln't Huxley be another prophet? Why not Jedi? Why did the prophets stop arriving all that time ago and not turn up more recently? Is it because they's be less credible?

It seems to me like you pick and choose stuff to believe, like picking cherries from a tree, for no other reason than that it suits you? You seem to demolish the very doctrine that supports your prophets.

Aww, won't you share?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Nuck81"] LOL, so you CAN'T comprehend what is being said. Ok then, I'll explain it for you. 1. He's not changing Church teaching- This means he is not changing church teaching. That means that what the Church has always taught before is still being taught. 2. What he did say is if someone, a male prostitute for example, who decides to use a condom because he has some glimmer of moral responsibility to prevent disease, that could be a first step towards a greater moral attitude, better moral attitude to sexuality- This means that if a male prostitute decides to use a condom because he wants to prevent disease then that shows a first step towards greater moral attitude. If he's using a condom to stop disease then maybe one day he can turn his life around. 3. in itself the act is still immoral.- Condom use is bad. It's a Sin. No where does it say that condom use is not a sin.Nuck81

[QUOTE="Nuck81"][QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Couldn't Polytheistic religions be an interpretation of a single God though? If not, why not?

Can't ex-con-men also be prophets? Why wouln't Huxley be another prophet? Why not Jedi? Why did the prophets stop arriving all that time ago and not turn up more recently? Is it because they's be less credible?

It seems to me like you pick and choose stuff to believe, like picking cherries from a tree, for no other reason than that it suits you? You seem to demolish the very doctrine that supports your prophets.

RationalAtheist

Aww, won't you share?

[QUOTE="Nuck81"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Honestly dude. You just don't get it and this is getting tiresome. You're just plain wrong. Period.

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Asim90"]

Sshhh.. don't question him. He's clearly an Islamic Scholar who has studied the religion, can speak arabic and has a broad understanding of the religion and was taught by qualified teachers. OR, he's an internet troll who looks at quotes online through his troll goggles and plucks out whatever he can to match his troll agenda.

Asim90

Considering I have yet to meet a Muslim who has actually read the Qur'an, I don't think its a stretch. The problem with a lot of religious people is that they don't even know their own religions, they are simply in that faith because they were born into it.

Another funny thing is that Islam encourages teaching, it stresses that religion should be continued by scholars who are versed in the religion and teach it. Collective thought and interpration is encouraged for this reason.

Why do you think their prophet said "beware of extremism in religion because it is extremism in religion that destroyed the people before you". I simply don't buy all the fear mongering. I honestly believe that people today even in supposedly religious countries aren't even capable of understanding religion as it is intended.

I'm going to end my rant now.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Nuck81"] I can't explain it any better. Unless I try to explain like I'm talking to a three year old?Nuck81

[QUOTE="Asim90"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Nonetheless, is the religion so out of touch with the population that only the opinon of a "scholar" is important?

LJS9502_basic

Considering I have yet to meet a Muslim who has actually read the Qur'an, I don't think its a stretch. The problem with a lot of religious people is that they don't even know their own religions, they are simply in that faith because they were born into it.

Another funny thing is that Islam encourages teaching, it stresses that religion should be continued by scholars who are versed in the religion and teach it. Collective thought and interpration is encouraged for this reason.

Why do you think their prophet said "beware of extremism in religion because it is extremism in religion that destroyed the people before you". I simply don't buy all the fear mongering. I honestly believe that people today even in supposedly religious countries aren't even capable of understanding religion as it is intended.

I'm going to end my rant now.

Of course, which is why people should think with their brains and choose their own paths. The core beliefs are universal though and schools of thought only really differ on small things. I strongly belive in the importance of learning from someone who is educated. If people did that, none of the drama in the world today would even exist.

I'll share this. One of the Founding principles of the Baha'i Faith The responsibility of each person to independently search for truthNuck81

How has all this independant thought conjoined at the Bahai faith?

I wonder at how independantly you can think when you try and connect all of the worlds main religions.

Of course, which is why people should think with their brains and choose their own paths. The core beliefs are universal though and schools of thought only really differ on small things. I strongly belive in the importance of learning from someone who is educated. If people did that, none of the drama in the world today would even exist.

Asim90

There is a fundamental division in Islam between Sunni and Shia, isn't there?

People get well educated in universities, rather than Madrasahs.

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]I'll share this. One of the Founding principles of the Baha'i Faith The responsibility of each person to independently search for truthRationalAtheist

How has all this independant thought conjoined at the Bahai faith?

I wonder at how independantly you can think when you try and connect all of the worlds main religions.

Well the three Abrahamic Religions (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) are connected anyway to an extent.

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]You can't explain it because you have no understanding of how the Catholic Church functions nor the part of the Pope within it. Maybe you should stick to talking about your own faith. You might...and I stress might...do better in that regard.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]I'll share this. One of the Founding principles of the Baha'i Faith The responsibility of each person to independently search for truthRationalAtheist

How has all this independant thought conjoined at the Bahai faith?

I wonder at how independantly you can think when you try and connect all of the worlds main religions.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]I'll share this. One of the Founding principles of the Baha'i Faith The responsibility of each person to independently search for truthAsim90

How has all this independant thought conjoined at the Bahai faith?

I wonder at how independantly you can think when you try and connect all of the worlds main religions.

Well the three Abrahamic Religions (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) are connected anyway to an extent.

Well the three Abrahamic Religions (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) are connected anyway to an extent.

Asim90

They diverge as three very different varieties of faith that contradict each other.