Regarding Hell (yes another religion topic)

While I have no idea what the bible just said, but, that's interesting I know somehow people created heaven/hell later on. :roll:

magicalclick

That's great. Are you here to contribute or just roll your eyes?

[QUOTE="magicalclick"][QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

The word translated as soul in the Old Testament is the Greek word 'Nephesh', which means literally 'To Breathe'.

The Bible doesn't teach that we have immortal souls. It teaches that we are mortal beings who will die an be bodily resurrected at some time in the future. You don't 'die and go to Heaven or Hell', you die and rot, until your body is reformed at Resurrection.

br0kenrabbit

The Bible tells us what death is like:

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; ...

"But wait!" I hear you say. "That was BEFORE Christ! AFTER Christ, as soon as people die they go to heaven or hell, like the thief on the cross!" Not true. Let's take a look.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Doesn't this prove that as soon as Jesus and the Thief die on the cross, they will be together in paradise? No, it doesn't. The comma was added during translation, and does not appear in the original text. Let's move that comma one word...

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Sounds stilted in English but you get the idea. It's a promise MADE on this day, not that will HAPPEN on this day. Need further proof?? How could Christ have been in Paradise with the Thief ON THE FIRST DAY if after the third day he still says:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

Death is sleep. We sleep until we are ressurrected, and we DO NOT have immortality UNTIL THEN.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

(Note that immortality is not received or "put on" until the second coming. We do not have it until then.)

1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I don't like crossing threads but I noticed you said you got a divorce, how can you be so specific and know so much about the bible when you chose to ignore the most obvious "till death do us part" bit? it seems rather hypocritical.

I am not trying to be offensive, just curious.

I don't like crossing threads but I noticed you said you got a divorce, how can you be so specific and know so much about the bible when you chose to ignore the most obvious "till death do us part" bit? it seems rather hypocritical.

I am not trying to be offensive, just curious.

tim22000

Because I'm not going to hold a gun to her head and force her to stay? Or stalk her?

She sought the divorce, I sought counseling.

I have not remarried.

Edit: BTW, 'Till death do us part" NEVER appears in the Bible.

The hell you think about does not actually exist, everyone sleeps when they die until, judgement day. That they we will be waken up and judge by god, if we been good enough according to the bible we ll live in earth, and if we werent we ll be destroyedSolid_Tango

A succinct way of saying what I said, but yeah, that's pretty much it.

Except the Earth part.

As far as your statement regarding keeping the faith of your upbringing, that is indeed the case. However, this truth is one of the reasons why Christianity promotes evangelism to such a degree. If all hear the message of Jesus and reject him, are they not without excuse?

mindstorm

Would it not follow then that those who live a life completely without having heard the message of Jesus do have a valid excuse?

[QUOTE="DigitalExile"]

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

As far as your statement regarding keeping the faith of your upbringing, that is indeed the case. However, this truth is one of the reasons why Christianity promotes evangelism to such a degree. If all hear the message of Jesus and reject him, are they not without excuse?

mindstorm

If someone is born ugly should they be shunned from society?

If a man's frontal lobe in his brain is damaged and he can no longer distinguish the results of his actions and kills someone, is he a bad person?

I think not. It is quite a paradox to create a flawed being and then damn the disturbed to a hellish fire for eternity, I believe quite alot of things in god are benevolent but hell was a mistake. Eternity in hellfire is a business you could describe as non-profit sadism, there just isn't any point to it.

I like the definition in the Anne Rice book where Lestat goes to hell, and is told Hell is only a spot where lost souls are lead onto the track to heaven.

I'm not a very religious guy, but hope damn if it wouldn't suck to die and be in hell.

[QUOTE="TheMadGamer"]

Hell is not a Biblical teaching, if you don't believe me, try to find a scripture that states hell exists. Also the Bible in 1 John 4:16 states that "God is love." So if God is love why would He create a place where people are tormented forever? Doesn't make sense.

mindstorm

So God is a being of contradiction?

Would it not follow then that those who live a life completely without having heard the message of Jesus do have a valid excuse?

GabuEx

So God is a being of contradiction?

Pixel-Pirate

Eternal punishment for finite sins is not something I can agree with, but I have heard a flimsy reason of why it's eternal. Since the highest judge (God) is the highest authority, his punishment is infinitely harsh.

While I see why you'd argue that, Scripture argues for something different in Romans 1:18-20.

mindstorm

Well, yes or no question: is it guaranteed that people who died having had no capacity to hear the message of Jesus go to hell when they die due to having not accepted Jesus as their lord and savior? Or is it possible that they can go to heaven, and if so, by what means?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

While I see why you'd argue that, Scripture argues for something different in Romans 1:18-20.

GabuEx

Well, yes or no question: is it guaranteed that people who died having had no capacity to hear the message of Jesus go to hell when they die due to having not accepted Jesus as their lord and savior? Or is it possible that they can go to heaven, and if so, by what means?

It may be possible by the same means as Abraham and those of the Old Testament. However, I cannot say this for certain.mindstorm

Considering that you affirmed only a page back that "in Christ alone can one gain access to the Father", and considering that someone who has never even heard of Christ can certainly not be in Christ (right?), how can there be any doubt in your mind that the answer is "yes, it is guaranteed"?

Regardless, God is entirely just even if I were to say no being that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Is it a horrible thing for a person to never hear the name of Jesus and be doomed eternally in hell? Absolutely! However, this does not mean that God is not entirely just in this being that it is our just punishment.mindstorm

What makes it horrible if it is just?

And you said before that you "honestly wish(ed) (you) could say that the person wouldn't be punished", but why? You say here that it is entirely just, so why would you wish for there to be an injustice done?

Well I will start by saying this. I do believe there is a God, and I do believe there is a Satan. And I do believe there is a heaven, so deductively there must be a hell (with my belief system). God.. God is God. He is a loving/caring/giving entity, and has given us free will to make our own decisions. Satan in essence...was created by God. (dont get ya panties in a bunch just yet). Satan or Lucifer was an "angel" but thought he was better then God in all aspects, so God cast him from heaven, and Satan got his own place called "hell". ... i think it may be in Michigan... Anyways, SO because of our free will given to us by God, Satan tries to coax us into ways of the wicked, while God tries to bring us to him with love.

Yall can question and rip that apart all that you want, but that was discovered by my own research/soul searching and thats pretty much what I believe. I would like to take this space up right now by saying I am in no way, shape, or form, trying to shove my beliefs down anyones throat, the above is purely my opinion/belief. ^_^ *cookies for all*

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

While I see why you'd argue that, Scripture argues for something different in Romans 1:18-20.

mindstorm

Well, yes or no question: is it guaranteed that people who died having had no capacity to hear the message of Jesus go to hell when they die due to having not accepted Jesus as their lord and savior? Or is it possible that they can go to heaven, and if so, by what means?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

Many on this site would try to argue that hell is not eternal. Regardless of that, Scripture and all orthodox church traditions teach that hell is an eternal place of torment apart from God. Outside of these orthodox teachings are theories of annihilation (hell not being eternal but ceasing to exist) and future redemption outside of this life (no biblical case for this whatsoever).

With that said, the reason why the punishment for is infinite is because the the wrong doing is infinite. While sins against humanity and against ourselves are finite, sins against an infinite God are themselves infinite.

As far as your statement regarding keeping the faith of your upbringing, that is indeed the case. However, this truth is one of the reasons why Christianity promotes evangelism to such a degree. If all hear the message of Jesus and reject him, are they not without excuse?

Bluestorm-Kalas

Sure it saddens Him. He does not wish for anyone to perish. That is why He, in the person of Jesus Christ, came to earth and suffered and died, paid the price for our sins, so that those that repent and accept Christ's sacrifice can have eternal life and fellowship with Him.

God is holy, just and righteous and would not be so if He did not punsh sin. By His nature He cannot allow sin into His eternal presence. In our natural state, we are eternally separated form God by our sin. In Christ, God bridged that gap with the cross and offered a free gift of salvation in Christ to those that repent and accept it, by placing their trust in Christ alone as their Lord and Savior.

Indeed none may know the Father without the Son. However, those in the Old Testament only had a promise of the future savior. The promise alone seemed sufficient for the salvation of those before Christ.mindstorm

So... can people be saved without accepting Jesus as their lord and savior, or no?

You seem to be rather reluctant to answer that question. :P

Well, God does not seem to care for it either. 2 Peter 3:9 states, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Does this mean all will come to salvation? Nope. God seems to love his hatred of sin (as should we) and he loves to give out his mercy to those who do not deserve it (as should we). If God were to give us our "just" punishment, we would all be doomed to hell. However, God patiently and mercifully waits for those who do not deserve his love to come to salvation almost to the point that he could be considered unjust for allowing us to go unpunished! Though, there was a punishment made for our sin through Christ's crucifixion. This salvation is purely an undeserved gift. Should we mourn over the fact that we deserve death? Absolutely. Should we mourn over the fact that many will never receive salvation through Christ? Absolutely. Should we rejoice in God's merciful gift of salvation? Absolutely.mindstorm

Well, no offense, but this doesn't really answer my question at all. You said that you wished that those people would not be punished. Yet, that is clearly not what God wished, or else he would not have allowed them to live without any hope of hearing the message that might bring them to salvation. This is not even a case in which the argument of free will applies; these people did not hear the message and then rejected it, but rather did not even hear it at all, so it cannot be argued that by sending them to hell God is allowing them to exercise their free will.

How, then, is your wish that they not be punished not entirely contrary to what clearly must be God's will? If God does not wish that they not be punished (and he must not - if he did then clearly it would be as he wished), then why do you?

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Would it not follow then that those who live a life completely without having heard the message of Jesus do have a valid excuse?

mindstorm

So God is a being of contradiction?

Pixel-Pirate

God hates evil but the characteristic of hate breeds evil and evil deeds (racism, intolerance, and genocide is all born from hate. All these can be considered evil deeds). So God hates evil but in it's very nature he breeds evil by hating it.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="TheMadGamer"]

Hell is not a Biblical teaching, if you don't believe me, try to find a scripture that states hell exists. Also the Bible in 1 John 4:16 states that "God is love." So if God is love why would He create a place where people are tormented forever? Doesn't make sense.

TheMadGamer

Alright, I'll use an illustration to back my comment.

What would you think of parents who kept their children imprisoned day after day, or even tortured them? If you would be disgusted by such acts, should you not also be disgusted by a god who would cause his children to be tormented forever in fire?

So if cruelty and torture disgust us, how much more must they disgust God, who is love as I previously brought out.

Also the doctine of hellfire goes against justice. As Paul brought out "The wages sin pays is death." (Romans 6:23)and he also says "He who has died has been acquitted from his sin." So if death completely removes a person's indebtedness, why should he then suffer eternally for only a lifetime of sin?

Thus, the Bible shows that hellfire, as it is generally understood, does not exist.

Also, to comment on the scripture you just quoted the fiery lake mentioned there is only a symbol for annihilation, or eternal destruction. So there is no suffering in the lake of fire, or Gehenna, any more than there is in Hades (or, Sheol), where faithful servants of God, as well as wicked people, go.

In the quote I bolded and highlighted, Paul is speaking about a Christians death unto sin in Christ. He is not speaking about physical death freeing one from sin. He is speaking of the spiritual death of our old sin nature and the birth of a new nature in Christ. When one repents of sin and accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, they die unto sin, their old sin nature is buried and they are reborn, a new creature in Christ. A follower of Christ, in their new nature, will not continue in a life of intentional sin.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[QUOTE="Bluestorm-Kalas"]

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

Many on this site would try to argue that hell is not eternal. Regardless of that, Scripture and all orthodox church traditions teach that hell is an eternal place of torment apart from God. Outside of these orthodox teachings are theories of annihilation (hell not being eternal but ceasing to exist) and future redemption outside of this life (no biblical case for this whatsoever).

With that said, the reason why the punishment for is infinite is because the the wrong doing is infinite. While sins against humanity and against ourselves are finite, sins against an infinite God are themselves infinite.

As far as your statement regarding keeping the faith of your upbringing, that is indeed the case. However, this truth is one of the reasons why Christianity promotes evangelism to such a degree. If all hear the message of Jesus and reject him, are they not without excuse?

blackregiment

Sure it saddens Him. He does not wish for anyone to perish. That is why He, in the person of Jesus Christ, came to earth and suffered and died, paid the price for our sins, so that those that repent and accept Christ's sacrifice can have eternal life and fellowship with Him.

God is holy, just and righteous and would not be so if He did not punsh sin. By His nature He cannot allow sin into His eternal presence. In our natural state, we are eternally separated form God by our sin. In Christ, God bridged that gap with the cross and offered a free gift of salvation in Christ to those that repent and accept it, by placing their trust in Christ alone as their Lord and Savior.

This never made sense to me. Cannots shouldn't be used when mentioning an infallible being that can bend the universe to his will. God (the christian God, atleast) isn't bound or restricted by anything but personal ethics. He can be "righteous" if he wants by changing the very meaning of the word. He can be "holy" by willing it. He punishes sin because he wants to, nothing forces him because nothing can because he is the irresistable force. God can allow sin into his presence as nothing can overpower something that is infallible, however instead it would be "God does not WANT sin in his presence".

When dealing with "why does God send people to be tortured in hell" you really cannot use "because he has to" as if he has no choice. Being infallible means he has any choice he wants. Instead you must come up with another reason. He does it because he wants to. Why does he want to? No clue.

Based on earlier comments in this thread, suggesting that hell is not eternal separation from God but rather a period of temporary punishment, I would like to make a few points.

Universalism bases its claim, that ultimately everyone will be saved and end up in heaven, on the translation of the Greek Word. aiōnios, which they portray as meaning a period of time that is "unspecified in length, but finite in duration". The whole gospel of universal salvation is built upon an incorrect definition of this word when taken in the context of the whole counsel of God's Word. We must let Scripture interpret Scripture and if there is a verse that is difficult for us to understand, we must interpret it in light of all of Scripture.

Here is the definition of aion from Thayer's Greek Definitions

Thayer Definition:

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G165

aiōn

Thayer Definition:

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

2) the worlds, universe

3) period of time, age

And from Strong's Hebrew/Greek Dictionary

aiōnios

From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Notice how they pick one meaning of the Word that suits their eisegesis?

Now lets look at a couple of verses, substituting their meaning, "an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of time" to see what kind of sense that would make. I will present the verse from the KJV as written first, and then the verse rewritten, substitution their meaning second.

You be the judge if, taken in light of the whole counsel of the Word of God, aiōnios means forever or, "an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of time".

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of ) punishment: but the righteous into (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period ) of life.

---

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of ) life?

---

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of ) life.

----

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of ) life.

----

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of ) life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

---

Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of ) life.

----

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of) life believed.

----

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of ) life:

----

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of ) life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

----

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of time).

---

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, for (an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of time in the heavens.

---

Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Eph 3:11 According to the (unspecified in length, but finite in duration,) purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

---

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King for (for an unspecified in length, but finite in duration, period of time), immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

I could go on and on, and on, and on, but I think you can get the picture. The definition universalism attempt to force on Scripture makes no sense when tried against the whole counsel of God's Word. To deny eternal punishment, in the verses that speak of it, they must also deny the eternal nature of God and His Kingdom since the same word is used to speak of those things in certain verses as well.

This clearly shows that when one studies the whole counsel of the Word of God, rather than just taking a few verses from Scripture and interpreting them in a manner that contradicts the whole teaching of Scripture, they will see that the "everybody ultimately goes to heaven" gospel that universalism proclaims is not what God's Word truly reveals.

God bless

So... can people be saved without accepting Jesus as their lord and savior, or no?

You seem to be rather reluctant to answer that question. :P

GabuEx

Nope. I was just pointing out that there "might" be a possibility of calling him lord and savior without technically knowing his name like those in the Old Testament. :P

Well, no offense, but this doesn't really answer my question at all. You said that you wished that those people would not be punished. Yet, that is clearly not what God wished, or else he would not have allowed them to live without any hope of hearing the message that might bring them to salvation. This is not even a case in which the argument of free will applies; these people did not hear the message and then rejected it, but rather did not even hear it at all, so it cannot be argued that by sending them to hell God is allowing them to exercise their free will.

How, then, is your wish that they not be punished not entirely contrary to what clearly must be God's will? If God does not wish that they not be punished (and he must not - if he did then clearly it would be as he wished), then why do you?

mindstorm

In the language of the passage I mentioned in 2 Peter 3:9, NIV says "not wanting anyone to perish" while NASB says "not wishing for any to perish." In this, I tend to differentiate God's will from God's wish. God's will will be accomplished. However, does mean that he cannot have an unfulfilled wish/desire? One can see this countless times in Scripture when God is brokenhearted over his people as they reject him or face hardship. Can I not too be heartbroken and have certain wishes despite knowing the contrary will happen?

And btw, I tend to stay away from the free will argument whenever I can. I just do not like placing that much faith in an argument not mentioned directly in Scripture. I also am in need of figuring out a few things regarding that argument in light of my view of determinism. :P

Thayer's Greek Definitions

blackregiment

It's too bad Thayer didn't base his intepertations off the direct Greek meaning but rather assigned to it whatever he felt like it.

Example.

Example 2

If hell is eternal, then that means people in hell have eternal life. The wages of sin is death, only those who recieve salvation shall have eternal life.

God hates evil but the characteristic of hate breeds evil and evil deeds (racism, intolerance, and genocide is all born from hate. All these can be considered evil deeds). So God hates evil but in it's very nature he breeds evil by hating it.

Pixel-Pirate

Universalism bases its claim, that ultimately everyone will be saved and end up in heaven

blackregiment

I'm not a universalists, I'm an annhilationist. I believe in the Biblical teaching that those damned to hell will be destroyed there.

Psalms 37:20 "The wicked shall perish ... they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

John 3:16 Those who are lost will "perish."

Matthew 3:12 "Unquenchable fire" will totally "burn up" the wicked.

Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

If the lake of fire burned forever, there would always be pain and sorrow somewhere in the universe and Revelation 21:4 could never come true. But it is true. Sin will be gone forever and pain will cease to exist throughout God's entire universe!

Nope. I was just pointing out that there "might" be a possibility of calling him lord and savior without technically knowing his name like those in the Old Testament. :P

mindstorm

But how would people who did not even hear of the Old Testament even know that there is a lord and savior, or, indeed, that they even need to do anything of the sort?

In the language of the passage I mentioned in 2 Peter 3:9, NIV says "not wanting anyone to perish" while NASB says "not wishing for any to perish." In this, I tend to differentiate God's will from God's wish. God's will will be accomplished. However, does mean that he cannot have an unfulfilled wish/desire? One can see this countless times in Scripture when God is brokenhearted over his people as they reject him or face hardship. Can I not too be heartbroken and have certain wishes despite knowing the contrary will happen?

mindstorm

Well, what is the difference between God's will and God's wish? Is God omnipotent, or not? If indeed the people who go to hell are there for all eternity, and if indeed most humans who are created end up there, then would you not agree that God's attempt to save the creation that he loves so much seems rather... well, a little ineffectual and impotent? If we were to keep score between God who wishes to save people and the devil who wishes that people not be saved, there would at least seem to be a rather clear victor there.

And if God is heartbroken at the sight of people who reject him and thus have to go to hell... isn't that going to make him basically be heartbroken for all eternity if people who go to hell stay there forever? Why would he create a universe in which he would be heartbroken for all eternity? That seems a little... masochistic.

[QUOTE="magicalclick"][QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

The word translated as soul in the Old Testament is the Greek word 'Nephesh', which means literally 'To Breathe'.

The Bible doesn't teach that we have immortal souls. It teaches that we are mortal beings who will die an be bodily resurrected at some time in the future. You don't 'die and go to Heaven or Hell', you die and rot, until your body is reformed at Resurrection.

br0kenrabbit

The Bible tells us what death is like:

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; ...

"But wait!" I hear you say. "That was BEFORE Christ! AFTER Christ, as soon as people die they go to heaven or hell, like the thief on the cross!" Not true. Let's take a look.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Doesn't this prove that as soon as Jesus and the Thief die on the cross, they will be together in paradise? No, it doesn't. The comma was added during translation, and does not appear in the original text. Let's move that comma one word...

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Sounds stilted in English but you get the idea. It's a promise MADE on this day, not that will HAPPEN on this day. Need further proof?? How could Christ have been in Paradise with the Thief ON THE FIRST DAY if after the third day he still says:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

Death is sleep. We sleep until we are ressurrected, and we DO NOT have immortality UNTIL THEN.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

(Note that immortality is not received or "put on" until the second coming. We do not have it until then.)

1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

FYI, commas were not used in the original manscripts. They were introduced later.

Here is a good article on the comma of Luke 23:43.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/prophecy/comma.htm

What does the Bible say about "soul sleep?

http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html

Also, how do you expalin Moses and Elijah's appearance at the transfiguration? Were they "awakened" for a special appearance at the event?

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]God hates evil but the characteristic of hate breeds evil and evil deeds (racism, intolerance, and genocide is all born from hate. All these can be considered evil deeds). So God hates evil but in it's very nature he breeds evil by hating it.

mindstorm

Wrong is up for you to decide but the hatred can and generally does breed more hatred, sadness, suffering, and overall evil. God seems like a contradiction. He is eternally forgiving and loving but full of vengeance and hatred. He is infallible and all knowing but cannot eliminate sin or hatred.

You actually inadvertently say God isn't good at the end of your post, it seems. How can a Good God allow evil to continue eternally? But God allows evil to continue. God is eternal and all powerful so by simply willing it he could remove evil from existance. Since God does not do this can we call him a good God?

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]Thayer's Greek Definitions

br0kenrabbit

It's too bad Thayer didn't base his intepertations off the direct Greek meaning but rather assigned to it whatever he felt like it.

Example.

Example 2

If hell is eternal, then that means people in hell have eternal life. The wages of sin is death, only those who recieve salvation shall have eternal life.

The death spoken of here is spiritual death which is eternal separation from the Lord. We are ceated in the image of God with eternal spirits. Our spirits will reside in eternity either in the presence of the Lord or eternally separated from Him, based on our free will choice to accept Christ or reject Him.

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

[QUOTE="magicalclick"] Huh? Which bible said that? "You don't 'die and go to Heaven or Hell' I assume you use bible as a general term of manualscript. If that's the Christian bible, that would be really interesting.blackregiment

The Bible tells us what death is like:

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; ...

"But wait!" I hear you say. "That was BEFORE Christ! AFTER Christ, as soon as people die they go to heaven or hell, like the thief on the cross!" Not true. Let's take a look.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Doesn't this prove that as soon as Jesus and the Thief die on the cross, they will be together in paradise? No, it doesn't. The comma was added during translation, and does not appear in the original text. Let's move that comma one word...

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Sounds stilted in English but you get the idea. It's a promise MADE on this day, not that will HAPPEN on this day. Need further proof?? How could Christ have been in Paradise with the Thief ON THE FIRST DAY if after the third day he still says:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

Death is sleep. We sleep until we are ressurrected, and we DO NOT have immortality UNTIL THEN.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

(Note that immortality is not received or "put on" until the second coming. We do not have it until then.)

1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

FYI, commas were not used in the original manscripts. They were introduced later.

Here is a good article on the comma of Luke 23:43.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/prophecy/comma.htm

What does the Bible say about "soul sleep?

http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html

Also, how do you expalin Moses and Elijah's appearance at the transfiguration? Were they "awakened" for a special appearance at the event?

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I myself said the comma doesn't appear in the original language, so I don't know what you're going on about. As for the rest...I've covered sleep before so I won't go over that again. But about Moses and Elijah:

Consider the problems in assuming that it was literally Moses and Elijah whom they saw. First, how did the disciples recognize Moses and Elijah? And second, what common language did they speak?

Some may answer that, in being a "revelation" prepared for them by God Himself, God would also reveal to the disciples who they were and what they said. But the far better answer, using the Scripture itself, is that the transfiguration of Jesus was a God-given vision or apparition, given them while half-asleep. Note that Luke 9:32 speaks of the disciples as "heavy with sleep" and "when they were awake." Again in descending the mountain, Jesus Himself admonished them to "tell the vision to no man until the Son of man be risen again from the dead!"

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]Thayer's Greek Definitions

br0kenrabbit

It's too bad Thayer didn't base his intepertations off the direct Greek meaning but rather assigned to it whatever he felt like it.

Example.

Example 2

If hell is eternal, then that means people in hell have eternal life. The wages of sin is death, only those who recieve salvation shall have eternal life.

Using the temporal Greek definitions then, as I have shown, one must accept that eternal life is not "eternal" either, only for an unspecified in length, but finite in duration period of time. In addition then, one must accept that God and His Kingdom is not "eternal" either, but rather only for an unspecified in length, but finite in duration period of time. The verses I presented clearly show that. One can't have it both ways. The same word is uded for both instances of eternal.

The death spoken of here is spiritual death which is eternal separation from the Lord. We are ceated in the image of God with eternal spirits. Our spirits will reside in eternity either in the presence of the Lord or eternally separated from Him, based on our free will choice to accept Christ or reject Him.

But how would people who did not even hear of the Old Testament even know that there is a lord and savior, or, indeed, that they even need to do anything of the sort?

GabuEx

God's direct intervention as he does with Abraham.

Well, what is the difference between God's will and God's wish? Is God omnipotent, or not? If indeed the people who go to hell are there for all eternity, and if indeed most humans who are created end up there, then would you not agree that God's attempt to save the creation that he loves so much seems rather... well, a little ineffectual and impotent? If we were to keep score between God who wishes to save people and the devil who wishes that people not be saved, there would at least seem to be a rather clear victor there.

And if God is heartbroken at the sight of people who reject him and thus have to go to hell... isn't that going to make him basically be heartbroken for all eternity if people who go to hell stay there forever? Why would he create a universe in which he would be heartbroken for all eternity? That seems a little... masochistic.

GabuEx

Can God not say that he wishes for something to happen, but if it were to happen a greater purpose might not be fulfilled? For example, Romans 11:32 states, "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Does this mean that he delights in their disobedience? Of course not! However, it does lead to an even greater outcome.

As for whether God seems to be "loosing," how could he if he is truly powerful as Scripture says? Assuming the Scriptures are true, everything is going according to plan. Does that mean we understand this plan completely? Not at all but we are to live with our trust in him even in our questioning.

And no, I do not believe God is masochistic. I will admit, however, that it is a question I've never thought of before. Thus, I probably need to contemplate how this is carried out more before coming to a concrete conclusion.

Both hell and heaven were made up to control people and let them live their life how a select group wanted them to 2000years ago.

God's direct intervention as he does with Abraham.

mindstorm

If God directly intervenes with some, why would he not do so for all, if he does indeed desire that all come to Christ and be saved?

Can God not say that he wishes for something to happen, but if it were to happen a greater purpose might not be fulfilled? For example, Romans 11:32 states, "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Does this mean that he delights in their disobedience? Of course not! However, it does lead to an even greater outcome.

As for whether God seems to be "loosing," how could he if he is truly powerful as Scripture says? Assuming the Scriptures are true, everything is going according to plan. Does that mean we understand this plan completely? Not at all but we are to live with our trust in him even in our questioning.

mindstorm

But why would God create a universe in which his pleasure must be compromised by tradeoffs? That seems like a rather... well, human outlook, no? If God is omnipotent, then how much sense does it make to suppose that God would really, really like something to happen but cannot do so? If something is not, has never been, and will never be part of God's master plan for the universe, then why would God want it to happen?

And yes, it's a very good question - how could God fail to be victorious if he truly is as powerful as Scripture says? That is an excellent question - and is, in fact, exactly the purpose behind this line of questioning. We know that Jesus was in no uncertain terms the savior of the world and that God wants all to come to repentance and salvation... yet, we are told that humans have the power to utterly foil God in that respect and cause him to only save a small minority of humanity, while forcing him to be saddened for all eternity at the sight of the vast majority who are eternally punished in hell. Yet, God is also presented as omnipotent and capable of doing anything and everything he wishes. This would at least appear to not make much logical sense, no?

And no, I do not believe God is masochistic. I will admit, however, that it is a question I've never thought of before. Thus, I probably need to contemplate how this is carried out more before coming to a concrete conclusion.

mindstorm

Well yes, obviously I am not suggesting that God is masochistic... rather, I'm just showing the logical conclusion one may reach when starting with the initial premises you provide.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]God hates evil but the characteristic of hate breeds evil and evil deeds (racism, intolerance, and genocide is all born from hate. All these can be considered evil deeds). So God hates evil but in it's very nature he breeds evil by hating it.

Pixel-Pirate

Wrong is up for you to decide but the hatred can and generally does breed more hatred, sadness, suffering, and overall evil. God seems like a contradiction. He is eternally forgiving and loving but full of vengeance and hatred. He is infallible and all knowing but cannot eliminate sin or hatred.

You actually inadvertently say God isn't good at the end of your post, it seems. How can a Good God allow evil to continue eternally? But God allows evil to continue. God is eternal and all powerful so by simply willing it he could remove evil from existance. Since God does not do this can we call him a good God?

He said "continue eternally". Evil is the absence of God. God is good. Evil is the absence of God. Evil exists when humans reject God and live in disobedience to His Word and commands. If everyone in the world lived in obedience to Him perfectly, evil would not exist. Since that is not a reality, evil will exist until the second coming of the Lord. Since by Gods's standards, we are all declared sinners, if God were to eliminate all evil in the world today, He would have to remove our free will or destroy all of humanity.

By the way, evil will not exist eternally as we know it today. The way God will deal with evil in the end is described in the book of Revelation.

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]Thayer's Greek Definitions

blackregiment

It's too bad Thayer didn't base his intepertations off the direct Greek meaning but rather assigned to it whatever he felt like it.

Example.

Example 2

If hell is eternal, then that means people in hell have eternal life. The wages of sin is death, only those who recieve salvation shall have eternal life.

Using the temporal Greek definitions then, as I have shown, one must accept that eternal life is not "eternal" either, only for an unspecified in length, but finite in duration period of time. In addition then, one must accept that God and His Kingdom is not "eternal" either, but rather only for an unspecified in length, but finite in duration period of time. The verses I presented clearly show that. One can't have it both ways. The same word is uded for both instances of eternal.

The death spoken of here is spiritual death which is eternal separation from the Lord. We are ceated in the image of God with eternal spirits. Our spirits will reside in eternity either in the presence of the Lord or eternally separated from Him, based on our free will choice to accept Christ or reject Him.

The idea of eternity is almost as hard to grasp as the concept of zero (not even the Romans understood mathematical zero). As such, none of the ancient languages has a word that means 'eternity'. As far as the ancients were concerned, there was before the world, and after the world.

In fact, the Greek phrase translated as 'Everlasting life' is more properly translated 'Life of the ages'.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

It's too bad Thayer didn't base his intepertations off the direct Greek meaning but rather assigned to it whatever he felt like it.

Example.

Example 2

If hell is eternal, then that means people in hell have eternal life. The wages of sin is death, only those who recieve salvation shall have eternal life.

br0kenrabbit

Using the temporal Greek definitions then, as I have shown, one must accept that eternal life is not "eternal" either, only for an unspecified in length, but finite in duration period of time. In addition then, one must accept that God and His Kingdom is not "eternal" either, but rather only for an unspecified in length, but finite in duration period of time. The verses I presented clearly show that. One can't have it both ways. The same word is uded for both instances of eternal.

The death spoken of here is spiritual death which is eternal separation from the Lord. We are ceated in the image of God with eternal spirits. Our spirits will reside in eternity either in the presence of the Lord or eternally separated from Him, based on our free will choice to accept Christ or reject Him.

The idea of eternity is almost as hard to grasp as the concept of zero (not even the Romans understood mathematical zero). As such, none of the ancient languages has a word that means 'eternity'. As far as the ancients were concerned, there was before the world, and after the world.

In fact, the Greek phrase translated as 'Everlasting life' is more properly translated 'Life of the ages'.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

So are you suggesting that the Bible teaches that God is not "King eternal" but rather "King of the ages". That He should not be honored and glorified for "forever and ever" but rather only "for the ages"?

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="mindstorm"] So then it is wrong of me to hate the sin of rape, child molestation, genocide, etc.? Why is it we only ever expect God to be nice? What if we thought the same about the government. Should every criminal simply be pardoned to run rampant in the streets? God is indeed defined by love (and with that, hatred of evil) but he is not defined by nice. Because he is love, he must destroy that which is evil. For how can a good God allow evil to continue eternally?

blackregiment

Wrong is up for you to decide but the hatred can and generally does breed more hatred, sadness, suffering, and overall evil. God seems like a contradiction. He is eternally forgiving and loving but full of vengeance and hatred. He is infallible and all knowing but cannot eliminate sin or hatred.

You actually inadvertently say God isn't good at the end of your post, it seems. How can a Good God allow evil to continue eternally? But God allows evil to continue. God is eternal and all powerful so by simply willing it he could remove evil from existance. Since God does not do this can we call him a good God?

He said "continue eternally". Evil is the absence of God. God is good. Evil is the absence of God. Evil exists when humans reject God and live in disobedience to His Word and commands. If everyone in the world lived in obedience to Him perfectly, evil would not exist. Since that is not a reality, evil will exist until the second coming of the Lord. Since by Gods's standards, we are all declared sinners, if God were to eliminate all evil in the world today, He would have to remove our free will or destroy all of humanity.

By the way, evil will not exist eternally as we know it today. The way God will deal with evil in the end is described in the book of Revelation.

But it is always a choice for God to eliminate it and destroy free will. It is a choice for God to deny one entrance into heaven and send them to hell. God is not "affected by evil" nor is he hindered or hurt by the presence of it because he is infallible and all powerful. It is a choice for God to banish someone to hell, if God wanted he could forgive and accept the person in heaven. If he wanted he could eliminate sin, because he is God.

My problem here is people keep using words in ways that give one the idea that God has no choice or God cannot stop this/do that. But this is contradictory because God can do anything. God could eliminate sin today if he wanted. He chooses not to.

"Evil will exist untill the second coming of the lord" why? If the only way to get rid of evil is to take away free will, how would waiting allow one to eliminate evil without eliminating free will? And if there is a way to eliminate evil without eliminating freewill, God could do it right now but does not.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

So are you suggesting that the Bible teaches that God is not "King eternal" but rather "King of the ages". That He should not be honored and glorified for "forever and ever" but rather only "for the ages"?

blackregiment

God created time for man (Genesis 1:1 In the beginning...). God is timeless. He doesn't exist within time, he exists outside of it. This is how God has foreknowledge: he can see ALL OF TIME AT ONCE BECAUSE HE IS OUTSIDE OF TIME.

If God existed within time, he would be sempiternal, not eternal.

Also, you can tell the translation is bad when it says 'Forever and ever'. How can you have more after forever?

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

Wrong is up for you to decide but the hatred can and generally does breed more hatred, sadness, suffering, and overall evil. God seems like a contradiction. He is eternally forgiving and loving but full of vengeance and hatred. He is infallible and all knowing but cannot eliminate sin or hatred.

You actually inadvertently say God isn't good at the end of your post, it seems. How can a Good God allow evil to continue eternally? But God allows evil to continue. God is eternal and all powerful so by simply willing it he could remove evil from existance. Since God does not do this can we call him a good God?

Pixel-Pirate

He said "continue eternally". Evil is the absence of God. God is good. Evil is the absence of God. Evil exists when humans reject God and live in disobedience to His Word and commands. If everyone in the world lived in obedience to Him perfectly, evil would not exist. Since that is not a reality, evil will exist until the second coming of the Lord. Since by Gods's standards, we are all declared sinners, if God were to eliminate all evil in the world today, He would have to remove our free will or destroy all of humanity.

By the way, evil will not exist eternally as we know it today. The way God will deal with evil in the end is described in the book of Revelation.

But it is always a choice for God to eliminate it and destroy free will. It is a choice for God to deny one entrance into heaven and send them to hell. God is not "affected by evil" nor is he hindered or hurt by the presence of it because he is infallible and all powerful. It is a choice for God to banish someone to hell, if God wanted he could forgive and accept the person in heaven. If he wanted he could eliminate sin, because he is God.

My problem here is people keep using words in ways that give one the idea that God has no choice or God cannot stop this/do that. But this is contradictory because God can do anything. God could eliminate sin today if he wanted. He chooses not to.

As I said, God would have to eliminate our free will, turn us all into robots, or destroy all of humanity now, if we want all evil eliminated today. Do you think that those that choose not to believe in God or accept Christ's sacrifice would be comfortable with that? I don't think they would.

God would not be good if He allowed evil into His presence, nor would He be just if He did not punish sin.

God is sovereign and He, not we determine His eternal plan. He has provided a path for forgiveness for everyone in Christ as well as allows us the freedom to accept or reject the plan He has provided.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

So are you suggesting that the Bible teaches that God is not "King eternal" but rather "King of the ages". That He should not be honored and glorified for "forever and ever" but rather only "for the ages"?

br0kenrabbit

God created time for man (Genesis 1:1 In the beginning...). God is timeless. He doesn't exist within time, he exists outside of it. This is how God has foreknowledge: he can see ALL OF TIME AT ONCE BECAUSE HE IS OUTSIDE OF TIME.

If God existed within time, he would be sempiternal, not eternal.

Also, you can tell the translation is bad when it says 'Forever and ever'. How can you have more after forever?

Man's perspective of time is irrelevant. Are you suggesting that God is not eternal, that His ourpose is not eternal, that all of these verses means "only for the ages"? The translation is not "bad" it is stated that way for emphasis.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

He said "continue eternally". Evil is the absence of God. God is good. Evil is the absence of God. Evil exists when humans reject God and live in disobedience to His Word and commands. If everyone in the world lived in obedience to Him perfectly, evil would not exist. Since that is not a reality, evil will exist until the second coming of the Lord. Since by Gods's standards, we are all declared sinners, if God were to eliminate all evil in the world today, He would have to remove our free will or destroy all of humanity.

By the way, evil will not exist eternally as we know it today. The way God will deal with evil in the end is described in the book of Revelation.

blackregiment

But it is always a choice for God to eliminate it and destroy free will. It is a choice for God to deny one entrance into heaven and send them to hell. God is not "affected by evil" nor is he hindered or hurt by the presence of it because he is infallible and all powerful. It is a choice for God to banish someone to hell, if God wanted he could forgive and accept the person in heaven. If he wanted he could eliminate sin, because he is God.

My problem here is people keep using words in ways that give one the idea that God has no choice or God cannot stop this/do that. But this is contradictory because God can do anything. God could eliminate sin today if he wanted. He chooses not to.

As I said, God would have to eliminate our free will, turn us all into robots, or destroy all of humanity now, if we want all evil eliminated today. Do you think that those that choose not to believe in God or accept Christ's sacrifice would be comfortable with that? I don't think they would.

God would not be good if He allowed evil into His presence, nor would He be just if He did not punish sin.

God is sovereign and He, not we determine His eternal plan. He has provided a path for forgiveness for everyone in Christ as well as allows us the freedom to accept or reject the plan He has provided.

He would be good if he willed it. He could change the very nature, the very way you perceive good untill "bad" is good and "good" is bad. He could be just and not punish sin simply by wanting to be just. When you are an all powerful being that can do anything, silly meanings of words, ideas, etc, arn't boundries because you can eliminate their very existance.

This is the problem of an all powerfull deity. An excuse of "he can't." "he would, but this would happen..." just doesn't hold up to me because an all powerful being could nullify any consequences and break and "rule".

I also still don't get how eliminating sin now will rob us of free will, but eliminating sin during the second coming somehow bypasses the condition of robbing us of free will.