Regarding Hell (yes another religion topic)

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MystikFollower

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#201 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]

Yes, I've read that before. That's not exactly the same argument you're making. At the quantum level, a lot of things don't make sense: events can happen before their precipitators.

This, however, is not the experience of man. The experience of man is a temporal one: you can no more fast forward to next year than you can rewind to last year.

br0kenrabbit

Ok, in the limited realm of human experience, yes time seems to have a linear movement. But in the grand scheme of things, and even in our realities here, that is nothing but an illusion created by the motion of matter, the expansion of the Universe, and our mind's near constant preoccupation with past events and future event. Science is showing that time in essence may not even exist, so if time does NOT exist then that means there is only one time, now. I guess it's what's meant by many aspects of ultimate reality and God being far out of our level of comprehension. We can't comprehend the concept that everything that has ever happened, will ever happen, and is happening, is happening now.

That makes perfect since considering Time is a construct of God, for the benefit of man. Gods Kingdom is eternal, and we exist (currently) as a temporal element within this temporal realm which is a subset (?) of the eternal realm.

In a way yes. We here in the physical realm, use time for our day to day activities and the function of the world, but I think it's there mainly to serve as way for us to separate and understand our personal experiences. Cause like you said, if we experienced time as God experiences it, we'd experience every single event, feeling, and thought at once and that would destroy our brains I think. We need the illusion of time in the physical realm, but we should still understand and see it for what it is, then we can use it as the tool it was mean't to be used for.

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Dariency

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#202 Dariency
Member since 2003 • 9465 Posts

Yeah the problem here lies with the "If they are all indeed true" part. Hell Hounds? Aren't fiery dogs a creation of Greek mythology? Ouija board hysteria? This isn't the 80's ya know. The world would be such a different place if even a fraction of that nonsense were true. There are no boogie men and Ouija boards are just cardboard and plastic, how could a toy sold at Toy R' us be a gateway to the demonic realm? (at least they use to sell them there and yes I have used one as a child, and it was LAME and obviously spurred by the fearful imaginations of the users)

ScorpionBeeBee

I don't know, but I've heard some pretty convincing experiences. Someone was telling us years ago how he was sitting in his house one day, and he saw a candle rise up from his fireplace mantel and move through the air. He also told the story of someone who lost a grandparent, and they claim to have seen that person suddenly appear right next to their bed, and they weren't dreaming.

I even heard a person who claims that his son saw the body of her dying mother float up in the air and pass through the roof. Questionable? Indeed, but he says that he knew what he saw. Even if most of these stories are false, they do make you think.

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hamstergeddon

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#203 hamstergeddon
Member since 2006 • 7188 Posts
Because if there was an end in sight.... it just wouldn't be hell, ya know?
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xhellcatx

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#204 xhellcatx
Member since 2006 • 9015 Posts

Yeah the problem here lies with the "If they are all indeed true" part. Hell Hounds? Aren't fiery dogs a creation of Greek mythology? Ouija board hysteria? This isn't the 80's ya know. The world would be such a different place if even a fraction of that nonsense were true. There are no boogie men and Ouija boards are just cardboard and plastic, how could a toy sold at Toy R' us be a gateway to the demonic realm? (at least they use to sell them there and yes I have used one as a child, and it was LAME and obviously spurred by the fearful imaginations of the users)

ScorpionBeeBee

Well firstly let me say this: I know you do not know me, so obviously how can you take my word for it. But, I don't lie. Secondly, they were not "fiery" hell hounds. They were in essence demonic dogs. The only thing glowing about them were their eyes, which were red. Their bodies went from almost a scaley look to mist form look.. black, but light had hit them as they walked through the hallway, and they had a growl that very much resembled dogs, the hight of large dogs.. id say mastiff sized. And Ouija boards, plastic, wooden, whatever material they are made of.. it doesnt matter. It doesnt matter who sells them, they do serve the purpose of opening the 'door'. Sometimes, they may not seem as if they are working, but I can pretty much promise you that just because "nothing is happening" doesnt mean that Nothing is Happening.

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xhellcatx

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#205 xhellcatx
Member since 2006 • 9015 Posts


You shouldn't have burned the board. If you don't know what is it why would you burn it. Maby there were some kind of drugs on it or you are just lying. And maby things get worse if you just burn it.

hungry_pirate

So the only two possibilities are I was high, or I am lying, huh? ... Well, as I said previously, I can't prove that I wasnt on drugs at the time.. tho I am highly against drugs.. so.. And I cant prove that I am not lying, thats true, because you dont know me, and I wouldnt know what to say in order to convince you that I am not the lying type. But, Dont automatically call me a liar, just because you dont believe it to be possible, because you do not know me, so therefore if you cant believe me because you dont know me, you cant not believe me because you dont know me.

And with every bit of decency in my human body, I Promise you... I am not lying.

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Snipes_2

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#206 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="sexy_fool69"]

Ya but in Islam theres no barrier between you and God. Also the radicals are doing their own thing and do not represent God. If a "Priest is essentially Jesus", you expect him to be damn near perfect. The best away to get rid of this abuse of power is get rid of the barrier and this structure

sexy_fool69

No, The key word here is SUPPOSED to be. They are human, they have faults.

Then why would God give them such a power? Instead why doesnt God just directly let people ask him for forgiveness?

Because as I said, the Priest is supposed to represent Jesus. They live a celibate life etc..Lay people cannot turn the Water to wine and the Host to Jesus's Body.

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Pixel-Pirate

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#207 Pixel-Pirate
Member since 2009 • 10771 Posts

Here's some further considerations.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

See above. God cannot do things which are contrary to His nature.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]This is the problem of an all powerfull deity. An excuse of "he can't." "he would, but this would happen..." just doesn't hold up to me because an all powerful being could nullify any consequences and break and "rule".blackregiment

In other words, are you saying that we, the creation, should determine what God's, the Creator, standards should be?

I also still don't get how eliminating sin now will rob us of free will, but eliminating sin during the second coming somehow bypasses the condition of robbing us of free will.Pixel-Pirate

Actually, to eliminate sin, we would have to be stripped of our free will. Our free will allows us to choose obedience to God or disobedience to Him. Sin is disobedience to God. We sin when we choose disobedience to God. Therefore, to eliminate sin in this temporal world, our free will would have to be removed so that we would not have the choice to disobey God.

Sure he can. Being omnipotent means just that. God could change his very nature and the meaning of it. The ideas of "just, good, evil, etc", those meanings are only set into stone for a human but something that can change and do anything could easily change their very nature, change the very meaning and idea of a word.

To be unable to do something would mean God isn't omnipotent and that there are limits to what God can do. The difference between a judge and God is that the judge cannot change the very perception and idea of the word "just" by willing it, where as God can. Too many human restrictions and ideas are boggled down onto a being that would not have such restrictions, or any restriction at all.

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sexy_fool69

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#208 sexy_fool69
Member since 2008 • 748 Posts

[QUOTE="sexy_fool69"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] No, The key word here is SUPPOSED to be. They are human, they have faults. Snipes_2

Then why would God give them such a power? Instead why doesnt God just directly let people ask him for forgiveness?

Because as I said, the Priest is supposed to represent Jesus. They live a celibate life etc..Lay people cannot turn the Water to wine and the Host to Jesus's Body.

This debate is just gonna go in circles. It seems like we aren't really understanding each other
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Pixel-Pirate

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#209 Pixel-Pirate
Member since 2009 • 10771 Posts

is it too much to ask people not to lie , steal , or kill in order not to go to hell ?? (not to forget no believing in GOD).gubrushadow

The first one, yes. Lying can be beneficial and it's really impossible to go ones entire life without lying. I'd even go so far as to say it's impossible to go ones entire life without stealing in some form (if you have a broad sense of the word steal, and not simply defined as by US law). Killing is really the only one you can expect people not to do, and even then there are issues. I am not a theology scholar but what does the bible say about serviceman, policeman, guards, and people who kill in defense? They have have broken a commandment. Do their circumstances allow them to ignore the commandment? And if they can ignore the commandment because of their circumstances, why can't someone who never knew of Gods existance not get into heaven without knowing God, what with their circumstances?

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deactivated-5cacc9e03b460

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#210 deactivated-5cacc9e03b460
Member since 2005 • 6976 Posts

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]It depends on the denomination, you can't speak for Christianity as a whole, I know the Jehovah witnesses don't believe in hell, whereas the Pentecostals do, and believe it is eternal. I believe in hell and that its eternal.

Read These verses about hell being eternal

Revalations 14:10-11

Matthew 25:41-46

2 Thessalonians 1:9

foxhound_fox


I'm not trying to speak for Christians as a whole, I'm trying to understand what the Bible says about Hell and the afterlife.

Revelations is not exactly a good source of information, it is most definitely been added in after the original gospels, since its tone and styIe is much different, and it deals with a lot more out-there ideas.

And two mentions of an eternal Hell? That doesn't seem like they placed much importance on the concept, no? Why would they devote so little space to such an important idea if it meant that much to the early Christians? And how do you justify eternal punishment for finite crimes coming from an omni-benevolent God?

I've read all the passages about "Hell" in the Bible in many translations, and find very little evidence to suggest that the place is of any importance to early Christianity... which has lead me to believe that the idea of "eternal punishment" was injected much later into the belief system, especially with regards to Catholicism.

But how can you believe one portion of the bible and not the rest? You either beleive it all or you belive none of it. Here's how I see it. If you can believe in God and that he created the world and everything in it, then I think you could believe the accuracy and truth of the bible, seeing how its Gods word wouldn't God make sure its accurate so his people can use it to understand him and his ways? Why would God let false lies be added to it, which would lead the people astray?

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scorch-62

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#211 scorch-62
Member since 2006 • 29763 Posts

I'm sure exactly what you want to know. You asked about 100 questions.

Pirate700
Well, then it should be clear that he wants an answer to all 100 or so.
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Pixel-Pirate

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#212 Pixel-Pirate
Member since 2009 • 10771 Posts

..Eternal Happiness or Eternal Suffering...if Hell was gone then we really wouldn't have any motivation to be good now would we :p...?..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

Sure you do. But it's up to you on what that motivation is. Perhaps you are after a reward, perhaps you enjoy helping others, or perhaps you simply don't want to go to prison.

If you do something only out of fear of repercussion, what you did wasn't really legitimate. You didn't help that lady across the road because you wanted to. You did it because someone held a gun to you and said "Do it!"

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GabuEx

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#213 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

But how can you believe one portion of the bible and not the rest? You either beleive it all or you belive none of it. Here's how I see it. If you can believe in God and that he created the world and everything in it, then I think you could believe the accuracy and truth of the bible, seeing how its Gods word wouldn't God make sure its accurate so his people can use it to understand him and his ways? Why would God let false lies be added to it, which would lead the people astray?

racer8dan

If you want one of the most clear-cut examples in existence of an alteration to the Bible, look no further than Mark 16:9-20. The earliest manuscripts available do not include this passage. The later manuscripts do. Most modern Bibles either include a footnote to that end or simply leave it out altogether. It is plain as day that this passage was added later, most likely by someone who found the original ending uncomfortable or disconcerting.

The Bible is filled with indiciations like this of human editing, embellishment, and what have you, but this is easily the most clean, unambiguous example there is.

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MystikFollower

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#214 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

But how can you believe one portion of the bible and not the rest? You either beleive it all or you belive none of it. Here's how I see it. If you can believe in God and that he created the world and everything in it, then I think you could believe the accuracy and truth of the bible, seeing how its Gods word wouldn't God make sure its accurate so his people can use it to understand him and his ways? Why would God let false lies be added to it, which would lead the people astray?

GabuEx

If you want one of the most clear-cut examples in existence of an alteration to the Bible, look no further than Mark 16:9-20. The earliest manuscripts available do not include this passage. The later manuscripts do. Most modern Bibles either include a footnote to that end or simply leave it out altogether. It is plain as day that this passage was added later, most likely by someone who found the original ending uncomfortable or disconcerting.

The Bible is filled with indiciations like this of human editing, embellishment, and what have you, but this is easily the most clean, unambiguous example there is.

Unfortunately that's a trend I've noticed with much of the Bible. I believe a large portion of it to be divinely inspired, but somewhere along the line humans lost something in translation I think. I can't stand when Christians tell me I have to take the entire Bible as absolute infallible Word of God or deny it completely, when it was only INSPIRED by God and transcribed by humans, who as we are told constantly, are imperfect and fallible people. Not to mention the fact that it has many many different authors over many centuries.

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deactivated-5cacc9e03b460

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#215 deactivated-5cacc9e03b460
Member since 2005 • 6976 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

But how can you believe one portion of the bible and not the rest? You either beleive it all or you belive none of it. Here's how I see it. If you can believe in God and that he created the world and everything in it, then I think you could believe the accuracy and truth of the bible, seeing how its Gods word wouldn't God make sure its accurate so his people can use it to understand him and his ways? Why would God let false lies be added to it, which would lead the people astray?

MystikFollower

If you want one of the most clear-cut examples in existence of an alteration to the Bible, look no further than Mark 16:9-20. The earliest manuscripts available do not include this passage. The later manuscripts do. Most modern Bibles either include a footnote to that end or simply leave it out altogether. It is plain as day that this passage was added later, most likely by someone who found the original ending uncomfortable or disconcerting.

The Bible is filled with indiciations like this of human editing, embellishment, and what have you, but this is easily the most clean, unambiguous example there is.

Unfortunately that's a trend I've noticed with much of the Bible. I believe a large portion of it to be divinely inspired, but somewhere along the line humans lost something in translation I think. I can't stand when Christians tell me I have to take the entire Bible as absolute infallible Word of God or deny it completely, when it was only INSPIRED by God and transcribed by humans, who as we are told constantly, are imperfect and fallible people. Not to mention the fact that it has many many different authors over many centuries.

But your missing my point, maybe there was additions/alterations to it, but if you can believe in God, can't you believe he inspired the alterations?

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MystikFollower

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#216 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

If you want one of the most clear-cut examples in existence of an alteration to the Bible, look no further than Mark 16:9-20. The earliest manuscripts available do not include this passage. The later manuscripts do. Most modern Bibles either include a footnote to that end or simply leave it out altogether. It is plain as day that this passage was added later, most likely by someone who found the original ending uncomfortable or disconcerting.

The Bible is filled with indiciations like this of human editing, embellishment, and what have you, but this is easily the most clean, unambiguous example there is.

racer8dan

Unfortunately that's a trend I've noticed with much of the Bible. I believe a large portion of it to be divinely inspired, but somewhere along the line humans lost something in translation I think. I can't stand when Christians tell me I have to take the entire Bible as absolute infallible Word of God or deny it completely, when it was only INSPIRED by God and transcribed by humans, who as we are told constantly, are imperfect and fallible people. Not to mention the fact that it has many many different authors over many centuries.

But your missing my point, maybe there was additions/alterations to it, but if you can believe in God, can't you belivehe inspired the alterations?

I suppose I can believe that, but that means that the Bible is not the infallible word of God, if He himself had to inspire alterations to it cause WE got it wrong.

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GabuEx

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#217 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

But your missing my point, maybe there was additions/alterations to it, but if you can believe in God, can't you belivehe inspired the alterations?

racer8dan

The Hebrew word towr, which means "turtledove", was mistranslated in the KJV - which remained the English translation of choice for a long, long time - into "turtle" in Song of Solomon 2:12, creating the nonsensical phrase "voice of the turtle" (turtles have no voice). And, in fact, this mistranslation happened four more times in the KJV as well.

Are you telling me that that was inspired by God?

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deactivated-5cacc9e03b460

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#218 deactivated-5cacc9e03b460
Member since 2005 • 6976 Posts

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

Unfortunately that's a trend I've noticed with much of the Bible. I believe a large portion of it to be divinely inspired, but somewhere along the line humans lost something in translation I think. I can't stand when Christians tell me I have to take the entire Bible as absolute infallible Word of God or deny it completely, when it was only INSPIRED by God and transcribed by humans, who as we are told constantly, are imperfect and fallible people. Not to mention the fact that it has many many different authors over many centuries.

MystikFollower

But your missing my point, maybe there was additions/alterations to it, but if you can believe in God, can't you belivehe inspired the alterations?

I supposed I can believe that, but that means that the Bible is not the infallible word of God, if He himself had to inspire alterations to it cause WE got it wrong.

Well we know the old testament was the old law, such as "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", and the new testament is the new law, "turn the other cheek", So we can see God made changes to it.

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Mr_Leonis

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#219 Mr_Leonis
Member since 2007 • 4615 Posts
I honestly think its a scare tactic. :|
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blackregiment

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#220 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

But how can you believe one portion of the bible and not the rest? You either beleive it all or you belive none of it. Here's how I see it. If you can believe in God and that he created the world and everything in it, then I think you could believe the accuracy and truth of the bible, seeing how its Gods word wouldn't God make sure its accurate so his people can use it to understand him and his ways? Why would God let false lies be added to it, which would lead the people astray?

GabuEx

If you want one of the most clear-cut examples in existence of an alteration to the Bible, look no further than Mark 16:9-20. The earliest manuscripts available do not include this passage. The later manuscripts do. Most modern Bibles either include a footnote to that end or simply leave it out altogether. It is plain as day that this passage was added later, most likely by someone who found the original ending uncomfortable or disconcerting.

The Bible is filled with indiciations like this of human editing, embellishment, and what have you, but this is easily the most clean, unambiguous example there is.

I am not so sure it is as cut and dry as you suggest. Here is a good article that discusses, at length, both sides of the issue.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2780

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mattbbpl

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#221 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23341 Posts
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

But how can you believe one portion of the bible and not the rest? You either beleive it all or you belive none of it. Here's how I see it. If you can believe in God and that he created the world and everything in it, then I think you could believe the accuracy and truth of the bible, seeing how its Gods word wouldn't God make sure its accurate so his people can use it to understand him and his ways? Why would God let false lies be added to it, which would lead the people astray?

If you want one of the most clear-cut examples in existence of an alteration to the Bible, look no further than Mark 16:9-20. The earliest manuscripts available do not include this passage. The later manuscripts do. Most modern Bibles either include a footnote to that end or simply leave it out altogether. It is plain as day that this passage was added later, most likely by someone who found the original ending uncomfortable or disconcerting.

The Bible is filled with indiciations like this of human editing, embellishment, and what have you, but this is easily the most clean, unambiguous example there is.

Responses like this, Gabu, are one of my favorite things about OT. While I can't take anything anyone says on a forum at face value, these types of statements give me plenty to ponder and investigate.

You sure do keep things interesting :P
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GabuEx

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#222 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

I am not so sure it is as cut and dry as you suggest. Here is a good article that discusses, at length, both sides of the issue.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2780

blackregiment

Sir Frederic Kenyon nevertheless believed that "we can accept the passage as true and authentic narrative, though not an original portion of St. Mark's Gospel" (1951, p. 174, emp. added). More recently, textual scholars of no less stature than Kurt and Barbara Aland, though also rejecting the originality of the block of twelve verses in question, nevertheless admit that the longer ending "was recognized as canonical" and that it "may well be from the beginning of the second century" (Aland and Aland, 1987, pp. 69,227).

The author of the article

Your own source basically validates what I said, that the verses were added later and therefore were not written by the original author of Mark. I suppose an argument could be made against my proposed reason for the addition, but that bit of information is utterly irrelevant to the point at hand.

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Snipes_2

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#223 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="sexy_fool69"] Then why would God give them such a power? Instead why doesnt God just directly let people ask him for forgiveness?sexy_fool69

Because as I said, the Priest is supposed to represent Jesus. They live a celibate life etc..Lay people cannot turn the Water to wine and the Host to Jesus's Body.

This debate is just gonna go in circles. It seems like we aren't really understanding each other

It's kind of hard on the Internet. You can't really convey your message effectively through text alone.
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blackregiment

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#224 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="sexy_fool69"]

Ya but in Islam theres no barrier between you and God. Also the radicals are doing their own thing and do not represent God. If a "Priest is essentially Jesus", you expect him to be damn near perfect. The best away to get rid of this abuse of power is get rid of the barrier and this structure

sexy_fool69

No, The key word here is SUPPOSED to be. They are human, they have faults.

Then why would God give them such a power? Instead why doesnt God just directly let people ask him for forgiveness?

He does. Thje Bible says.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The confession of sin to priests was instituted in the Roman Catholic Church by Pope Innocent III in 1215 AD.

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blackregiment

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#225 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

I am not so sure it is as cut and dry as you suggest. Here is a good article that discusses, at length, both sides of the issue.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2780

GabuEx

Sir Frederic Kenyon nevertheless believed that "we can accept the passage as true and authentic narrative, though not an original portion of St. Mark's Gospel" (1951, p. 174, emp. added). More recently, textual scholars of no less stature than Kurt and Barbara Aland, though also rejecting the originality of the block of twelve verses in question, nevertheless admit that the longer ending "was recognized as canonical" and that it "may well be from the beginning of the second century" (Aland and Aland, 1987, pp. 69,227).

The author of the article

Your own source basically validates what I said, that the verses were added later and therefore were not written by the original author of Mark. I suppose an argument could be made against my proposed reason for the addition, but that bit of information is utterly irrelevant to the point at hand.

Oh really. :o You must have read a different article or skipped the second part. He presents both sides.

"CONCLUSION

For the unbiased observer, this matter is settled: the strongest piece of internal evidence mustered against the genuineness of Mark 16:9-20 is no evidence at all. The two strongest arguments offered to discredit the inspiration of these verses as the production of Mark are seen to be lacking in substance and legitimacy. The reader of the New Testament may be confidently assured that these verses are original—written by the Holy Spirit through the hand of Mark as part of his original gospel account."

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2780

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#226 deactivated-5cacc9e03b460
Member since 2005 • 6976 Posts

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

But your missing my point, maybe there was additions/alterations to it, but if you can believe in God, can't you belivehe inspired the alterations?

GabuEx

The Hebrew word towr, which means "turtledove", was mistranslated in the KJV - which remained the English translation of choice for a long, long time - into "turtle" in Song of Solomon 2:12, creating the nonsensical phrase "voice of the turtle" (turtles have no voice). And, in fact, this mistranslation happened four more times in the KJV as well.

Are you telling me that that was inspired by God?

I'm not saying there aren't man made mistakes during translations because its inevitable, but what God wanted the current generation to have we have IMO. He's not going to let our only information that we have of knowing him be altered to the point of leading us in a false direction, Because he wants us to be led down the right path. That's why I don't go along with the people who pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible, you can't believe what you want for your own particular needs, its all or none.

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LJS9502_basic

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#227 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

But how can you believe one portion of the bible and not the rest? You either beleive it all or you belive none of it. Here's how I see it. If you can believe in God and that he created the world and everything in it, then I think you could believe the accuracy and truth of the bible, seeing how its Gods word wouldn't God make sure its accurate so his people can use it to understand him and his ways? Why would God let false lies be added to it, which would lead the people astray?

GabuEx

If you want one of the most clear-cut examples in existence of an alteration to the Bible, look no further than Mark 16:9-20. The earliest manuscripts available do not include this passage. The later manuscripts do. Most modern Bibles either include a footnote to that end or simply leave it out altogether. It is plain as day that this passage was added later, most likely by someone who found the original ending uncomfortable or disconcerting.

The Bible is filled with indiciations like this of human editing, embellishment, and what have you, but this is easily the most clean, unambiguous example there is.

However, Mark 16:9-20 has been found in some less important manuscripts. It was composed by the second century though not by the same author. It is a general resumption of text found in Luke and John and likely added for continuity to Mark's gospel. Alteration...not really. Addition...yeah.

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LJS9502_basic

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#228 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

But your missing my point, maybe there was additions/alterations to it, but if you can believe in God, can't you belivehe inspired the alterations?

racer8dan

The Hebrew word towr, which means "turtledove", was mistranslated in the KJV - which remained the English translation of choice for a long, long time - into "turtle" in Song of Solomon 2:12, creating the nonsensical phrase "voice of the turtle" (turtles have no voice). And, in fact, this mistranslation happened four more times in the KJV as well.

Are you telling me that that was inspired by God?

I'm not saying there aren't mad made mistakes during translations because its inevitable, but what God wanted the current generation to have we have IMO. He's not going to let our only information that we have of knowing him be altered to the point of leading us in a false direction, Because he wants us to be led down the right path. Thats why I don't go along with the people who pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible, you can't believe what you want for your own particular needs, its all or none.

The problem with translations is that not all languages line up correctly. And some have several words for one word...others only one for several. In the bible I have it says dove...not turtle. And a dove does have a voice.

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deactivated-5cacc9e03b460

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#229 deactivated-5cacc9e03b460
Member since 2005 • 6976 Posts

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

The Hebrew word towr, which means "turtledove", was mistranslated in the KJV - which remained the English translation of choice for a long, long time - into "turtle" in Song of Solomon 2:12, creating the nonsensical phrase "voice of the turtle" (turtles have no voice). And, in fact, this mistranslation happened four more times in the KJV as well.

Are you telling me that that was inspired by God?

LJS9502_basic

I'm not saying there aren't mad made mistakes during translations because its inevitable, but what God wanted the current generation to have we have IMO. He's not going to let our only information that we have of knowing him be altered to the point of leading us in a false direction, Because he wants us to be led down the right path. Thats why I don't go along with the people who pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible, you can't believe what you want for your own particular needs, its all or none.

The problem with translations is that not all languages line up correctly. And some have several words for one word...others only one for several. In the bible I have it says dove...not turtle. And a dove does have a voice.

Yes, you are correct.

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#230 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

Oh really. :o You must have read a different article or skipped the second part. He presents both sides.

"CONCLUSION

For the unbiased observer, this matter is settled: the strongest piece of internal evidence mustered against the genuineness of Mark 16:9-20 is no evidence at all. The two strongest arguments offered to discredit the inspiration of these verses as the production of Mark are seen to be lacking in substance and legitimacy. The reader of the New Testament may be confidently assured that these verses are original—written by the Holy Spirit through the hand of Mark as part of his original gospel account."

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2780

blackregiment

Oh certainly, it states the conclusion that Mark 16:9-20 is authentic and genuine, but it does so by acting as though the evidence against its authenticity and genuineness doesn't exist. I find it especially interesting that it would claim that only biased observers would dispute that v. 9-20 is authentic and genuine, because a number of sites whose Christian credentials few would argue against do just that. CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry - states that "the dispute is not settled and may never be." GotQuestions.org flatly states that "the external evidence strongly suggests these verses were not originally part of Mark's gospel." Tekton Apologetics Ministries has a lengthy discussion of the passage, in which it states at length that:

"The two earliest parchment codices, Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus, plus 2 minuscules and several versions and manuscripts, do not contain verses 9-20. Two important early Christian writers testify that these verses are not found in Mark.... Many manuscripts that do have these verses 'have scholia stating that older Greek copies lack them,' and other textual witnesses add 'conventional signs used by scribes to mark off a spurious addition to a literary text.' There are also three variant endings of Mark in circulation. Our vss. 9-20 are the most common, but there is also a 'short' ending, and seven Greek manuscripts with both the long and short ending. However, this particular evidence may be too late to be of any relevance. The above evidence is absolutely decisive by the canons of textual criticism (whether secular or Biblical)."

Furthermore, almost all modern Bibles include a footnote indicating the disputed nature of the verse. The NIV states that "the most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20." The NASB states that "later mss add vv 9-20." The Message states that "Mark 16:9-20 ... is contained only in later manuscripts." The NLT states that "The most reliable early manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark end at verse 8."

The bottom line is that basically all modern scholarship and even a not insignificant segment of Christian apologetics affirms that Mark 16:9-20 was probably not in the original text (although it is certainly possible that Mark wrote another ending that has since been lost). To claim definitively not only that this is not the case, but also even that those who feel that this is the case must be necessarily biased (because otherwise, we are told, they would obviously agree), is something to which I am not even certain precisely how one ought to respond.

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#231 Bloodseeker23
Member since 2008 • 8338 Posts
I love this thread, keep it going ... I've read most of the whole 12 pages so far. I think the only real answer for all of this, is nothing but Death.
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#232 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

I'm not saying there aren't man made mistakes during translations because its inevitable, but what God wanted the current generation to have we have IMO. He's not going to let our only information that we have of knowing him be altered to the point of leading us in a false direction, Because he wants us to be led down the right path. That's why I don't go along with the people who pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible, you can't believe what you want for your own particular needs, its all or none.

racer8dan

If the Bible is supposed to be the unadulterated and wholly inspired word of God, then why would God allow such an obvious mistake to be made?

And it's not as though that's the only translation oddity in the KJV. The translation also contains in the Old Testament many references to mythical animals, such as satyrs, dragons, and unicorns... references that were basically inserted purely because the translators didn't have any idea what the words they were translating meant. No modern translation includes these references because we now recognize what those passages are really talking about.

If God really wants to preserve the accuracy of his word as you say, why would this be allowed?

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#233 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

Responses like this, Gabu, are one of my favorite things about OT. While I can't take anything anyone says on a forum at face value, these types of statements give me plenty to ponder and investigate.

You sure do keep things interesting :Pmattbbpl

Well I'm glad someone gets something out of these exercises... :P

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#234 deactivated-5cacc9e03b460
Member since 2005 • 6976 Posts

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

I'm not saying there aren't man made mistakes during translations because its inevitable, but what God wanted the current generation to have we have IMO. He's not going to let our only information that we have of knowing him be altered to the point of leading us in a false direction, Because he wants us to be led down the right path. That's why I don't go along with the people who pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible, you can't believe what you want for your own particular needs, its all or none.

GabuEx

If the Bible is supposed to be the unadulterated and wholly inspired word of God, then why would God allow such an obvious mistake to be made?

And it's not as though that's the only translation oddity in the KJV. The translation also contains in the Old Testament many references to mythical animals, such as satyrs, dragons, and unicorns... references that were basically inserted purely because the translators didn't have any idea what the words they were translating meant. No modern translation includes these references because we now recognize what those passages are really talking about.

If God really wants to preserve the accuracy of his word as you say, why would this be allowed?

I'm not a bible scholar or studier I'm just responding to you with what I know and what my opinion is. These mistakes that your talking about are known and can be compared to the Hebrew bible for correction. So its not like these mistakes are leading one astray.

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blackregiment

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#235 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

Oh really. :o You must have read a different article or skipped the second part. He presents both sides.

"CONCLUSION

For the unbiased observer, this matter is settled: the strongest piece of internal evidence mustered against the genuineness of Mark 16:9-20 is no evidence at all. The two strongest arguments offered to discredit the inspiration of these verses as the production of Mark are seen to be lacking in substance and legitimacy. The reader of the New Testament may be confidently assured that these verses are original—written by the Holy Spirit through the hand of Mark as part of his original gospel account."

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2780

GabuEx

Oh certainly, it states the conclusion that Mark 16:9-20 is authentic and genuine, but it does so by acting as though the evidence against its authenticity and genuineness doesn't exist. I find it especially interesting that it would claim that only biased observers would dispute that v. 9-20 is authentic and genuine, because a number of sites whose Christian credentials few would argue against do just that. CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry - states that "the dispute is not settled and may never be." GotQuestions.org flatly states that "the external evidence strongly suggests these verses were not originally part of Mark's gospel." Tekton Apologetics Ministries has a lengthy discussion of the passage, in which it states at length that:

"The two earliest parchment codices, Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus, plus 2 minuscules and several versions and manuscripts, do not contain verses 9-20. Two important early Christian writers testify that these verses are not found in Mark.... Many manuscripts that do have these verses 'have scholia stating that older Greek copies lack them,' and other textual witnesses add 'conventional signs used by scribes to mark off a spurious addition to a literary text.' There are also three variant endings of Mark in circulation. Our vss. 9-20 are the most common, but there is also a 'short' ending, and seven Greek manuscripts with both the long and short ending. However, this particular evidence may be too late to be of any relevance. The above evidence is absolutely decisive by the canons of textual criticism (whether secular or Biblical)."

Furthermore, almost all modern Bibles include a footnote indicating the disputed nature of the verse. The NIV states that "the most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20." The NASB states that "later mss add vv 9-20." The Message states that "Mark 16:9-20 ... is contained only in later manuscripts." The NLT states that "The most reliable early manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark end at verse 8."

The bottom line is that basically all modern scholarship and even a not insignificant segment of Christian apologetics affirms that Mark 16:9-20 was probably not in the original text (although it is certainly possible that Mark wrote another ending that has since been lost). To claim definitively not only that this is not the case, but also even that those who feel that this is the case must be necessarily biased (because otherwise, we are told, they would obviously agree), is something to which I am not even certain precisely how one ought to respond.

A discussion of the corrupt Alexandrian manuscript stream is beyond the scope of this thread, as well as the Greek transalation done by Hort and Wescott, two spiritualists and pals of Madame Blavatsky, the foundation of virtually all modern Bibles is beyond the scope of this thread.

"Those who support exclusion of Mark 16:9-20 have not been forthright in divulging that, as a matter of fact, Vaticanus and Sinaiticus frequently diverge from each other, with one or the other siding with Alexandrinus against the other."

"Standing in contrast with the evidence for omission is the external and internal evidence for the inclusion of verses 9-20. The verses are, in fact, present in the vast number of witnesses (see the UBS Greek text's critical apparatus—Aland, et al., 1983, p. 189). This point alone is insufficient to demonstrate the genuineness of a passage, since manuscripts may perpetuate an erroneous reading that crept into the text and then happened to survive in greater numbers than those manuscripts that preserved the original reading. Nevertheless, the sheer magnitude of the witnesses that support verses 9-20 cannot be summarily dismissed out of hand. Though rejecting the genuineness of the verses, the Alands offer the following concession that ought to give one pause: "It is true that the longer ending of Mark 16:9-20 is found in 99 percent of the Greek manuscripts as well as the rest of the tradition, enjoying over a period of centuries practically an official ecclesiastical sanction as a genuine part of the gospel of Mark" (1987, p. 287, emp. added). Such longstanding and widespread acceptance cannot be treated lightly nor dismissed easily. It is, at least, possible that the prevalence of manuscript support for the verses is due to their genuineness.

The Greek manuscript evidence that verifies the verses is distinguished, not just in quantity, but also in complexion and diversity. It includes a host of uncials and minuscules. The uncials include Codex Alexandrinus (02) and Ephraemi Re­script­us (04) from the fifth century. [NOTE: Technically, the Washington manuscript may be combined with these two manuscripts as additional fifth-century evidence for inclusion of the verses, since it simply inserts an additional statement in between verses 14 and 15.] Additional support for the verses comes from Bezae Cant­a­bri­gi­ensis (05) from the sixth century (or, according to the Alands, the fifth century—1987, p. 107), as well as 017, 033, 037, 038, and 041 from the ninth and tenth centuries. The minuscule manuscript evidence consists of the "Family 13" collection, entailing no fewer than ten manuscripts, as well as numerous other minuscules. The passage is likewise found in several lectionaries.

The patristic writings that indicate acceptance of the verses as genuine are remarkably extensive. From the second century, Irenaeus, who died c. A.D. 202, alludes to the verses in both Greek and Latin. His precise words in his Against Heresies were: "Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: 'So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God" (3.10.5; Roberts and Donald­son, 1973, 1:426 ). It is very likely that Justin Martyr was aware of the verses in the middle of the second century. At any rate, his disciple, Tatian, included the verses in his Greek Diatessaron (having come down to us in Arabic, Italian, and Old Dutch editions) c. A.D. 170.

Third century witnesses include Tertul­lian, who died after A.D. 220, in his On the Resurrection of the Flesh (ch. 51; Roberts and Donaldson, 1973, 3:584), Against Praxeas (ch. 30; Roberts and Donaldson, 3:627), and A Treatise on the Soul (ch. 25; Roberts and Donaldson, 3:206 ). Cyprian, who died A.D. 258, alluded to verses 17-18 in his The Seventh Council of Carthage (Roberts and Donaldson, 1971, 5:569). Additional third century verification is seen in the apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus. Verses 15-18 in Greek and verses 15-19 in Latin are quoted in Part I: The Acts of Pilate (ch. 14), and verse 16 in its Greek form is quoted in Part II: The Descent of Christ into Hell (ch. 2) (Roberts and Donaldson, 1970, 8:422,436,444-445). De Rebaptismate (A.D. 258 ) is also a witness to the verses. All seven of these second and third century witnesses precede the earliest existing Greek manuscripts that verify the genuineness of the verses. More to the point, they predate both Vati­canus and Sinaiticus.

Fourth century witnesses to the existence of the verses include Aphraates (writing in A.D. 337—see Schaff and Wace, 1969, 13:153), with his citation of Mark 16:16-18 in "Of Faith" in his Demonstrations (1.17; Schaff and Wace, 13:351), in addition to the Apostolic Constitutions (5.3.14; 6.3.15; 8.1.1)—written no later than A.D. 380 (Roberts and Donaldson, 1970, 7:445,457,479). Ambrose, who died A.D. 397, quoted from the section in his On the Holy Spirit (2.13.145,151), On the Christian Faith (1.14.86 and 3.4.31), and Concerning Repentance (1.8.35; Schaff and Wace, 10:133,134,216,247,335). Didymus, who died A.D. 398, is also a witness to the genuineness of the verses (Aland, et al., 1983, p. 189), as is perhaps Asterius after 341.

Patristic writers from the fifth century that authenticate the verses include Jerome, noted above, who died A.D. 420, Leo (who died ! 461) in his Letters (9.2 and 120.2; Schaff and Wace, 1969, 12:8,88 ), and Chry­sos­tom (who died A.D. 407) in his Homilies on First Corinthians (38.5; Schaff, 1969, 12:229). Additional witnesses include Se­veri­an (after 408 ), Marcus-Eremita (after 430), Nestorius (after 451), and Augustine (after 455). These witnesses to the genuineness of Mark 16:9-20 from patristic writers is exceptional.

The evidence for inclusion that comes from the ancient versions is also diverse and weighty—entailing a wide spectrum of versions and geographical locations. Several Old Latin/Itala manuscripts contain it. Though Jerome repeated the view that the verses were absent in some Greek manuscripts—a circumstance used by those who support exclusion—he actually included them in his fourth century Latin Vulgate (and, as noted above, quoted verse 14 in his own writings). The verses are found in the Old Syriac (Curetonian) as well as the Pershetta (spelling changed i to e to allow posting) and later Syriac (Palestinian and Harclean). The Coptic versions that have it are the Sahidic, Bohairic, and Fay­yumic, ranging from the third to the sixth centuries. The Gothic version (fourth century) has verses 9-11. The verses are also found in the Armenian, Georgian, and Old Church Slavonic versions.

What must the unbiased observer conclude from these details? All told, the cumulative external evidence that documents the genuineness of verses 9-20, from Greek manuscripts, patristic citations, and ancient versions, is expansive, ancient, diversified, and unsurpassed."


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#236 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

I'm not a bible scholar or studier I'm just responding to you with what I know and what my opinion is. These mistakes that your talking about are known and can be compared to the Hebrew bible for correction. So its not like these mistakes are leading one astray.

racer8dan

Actually, that's not true at all. I have seen myself strict adherents to the KJV who heavily stress their belief that all of these creatures did exist on account of the fact the KJV makes reference to them. As well as that, I have seen these translation errors be used as evidence by Biblical detractors as evidence (so they claim) in favor of its not being divinely inspired. Translation errors such as this both can lead and absolutely have lead people astray.

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#237 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

I'm not saying there aren't man made mistakes during translations because its inevitable, but what God wanted the current generation to have we have IMO. He's not going to let our only information that we have of knowing him be altered to the point of leading us in a false direction, Because he wants us to be led down the right path. That's why I don't go along with the people who pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible, you can't believe what you want for your own particular needs, its all or none.

GabuEx

If the Bible is supposed to be the unadulterated and wholly inspired word of God, then why would God allow such an obvious mistake to be made?

And it's not as though that's the only translation oddity in the KJV. The translation also contains in the Old Testament many references to mythical animals, such as satyrs, dragons, and unicorns... references that were basically inserted purely because the translators didn't have any idea what the words they were translating meant. No modern translation includes these references because we now recognize what those passages are really talking about.

If God really wants to preserve the accuracy of his word as you say, why would this be allowed?

Satyr was a mistranslation for the Hebrew word goat. Human error. The word dragon is almost synonymous with serpent, snake, reptile so perhaps a literal interpretation is not meant. As for unicorn the Hebrew word for wild beats was mistranslated to Greek for one horn and then into English as unicorn.
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#238 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

I'm not a bible scholar or studier I'm just responding to you with what I know and what my opinion is. These mistakes that your talking about are known and can be compared to the Hebrew bible for correction. So its not like these mistakes are leading one astray.

GabuEx

Actually, that's not true at all. I have seen myself strict adherents to the KJV who heavily stress their belief that all of these creatures did exist on account of the fact the KJV makes reference to them. As well as that, I have seen these translation errors be used as evidence by Biblical detractors as evidence (so they claim) in favor of its not being divinely inspired. Translation errors such as this both can lead and absolutely have lead people astray.

As with all literature...to get the understanding of the text one must study it. Not merely read it.
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#239 poptart
Member since 2003 • 7298 Posts

Just whilst we're on the topic of hell and Satan etc, I was just reading an interview the other day with the chief exorcist from the Vatican. He talks a bit about the devil, but I quite like what he was saying about those possessed:

He said it sometimes took six or seven of his assistants to to hold down a possessed person. Those possessed often yelled and screamed and spat out nails or pieces of glass, which he kept in a bag. "Anything can come out of their mouths – finger-length pieces of iron, but also rose petals."

Off topic for sure, but thought it an interesting tangent just to throw into the mix, just to accentuate why this whole hell/devil hypothesis is perhaps a little far fetched.

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sexy_fool69

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#241 sexy_fool69
Member since 2008 • 748 Posts
Wow, 240 posts yet only like one muslim replied. This was supposed to be a joint discussion with muslims and christians.....
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coolbeans90

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#242 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

Wow, 240 posts yet only like one muslim replied. This was supposed to be a joint discussion with muslims and christians.....sexy_fool69

That may have to do with the fact that there are probably a lot fewer Muslims than Christians on GameSpot...

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#243 sexy_fool69
Member since 2008 • 748 Posts

[QUOTE="sexy_fool69"]Wow, 240 posts yet only like one muslim replied. This was supposed to be a joint discussion with muslims and christians.....coolbeans90

That may have to do with the fact that there are probably a lot fewer Muslims than Christians on GameSpot...

Not as many but theres still a decent amount
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#244 gubrushadow
Member since 2009 • 2735 Posts
[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="sexy_fool69"]Wow, 240 posts yet only like one muslim replied. This was supposed to be a joint discussion with muslims and christians.....sexy_fool69

That may have to do with the fact that there are probably a lot fewer Muslims than Christians on GameSpot...

Not as many but theres still a decent amount

im a muslim, but we muslims dont say we are just to show ourselves , maybe some muslims replied but you didnt notice , anyway no offence.
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#245 sexy_fool69
Member since 2008 • 748 Posts

[QUOTE="sexy_fool69"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

That may have to do with the fact that there are probably a lot fewer Muslims than Christians on GameSpot...

gubrushadow

Not as many but theres still a decent amount

im a muslim, but we muslims dont say we are just to show ourselves , maybe some muslims replied but you didnt notice , anyway no offence.

I dont exactly understand what you mean, but doesnt matter anymore. Im ready to let this thread die. I guess Im going to have to continue on with my research myself regarding Hell in Islam.

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coolbeans90

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#246 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="sexy_fool69"]Wow, 240 posts yet only like one muslim replied. This was supposed to be a joint discussion with muslims and christians.....sexy_fool69

That may have to do with the fact that there are probably a lot fewer Muslims than Christians on GameSpot...

Not as many but theres still a decent amount

And a fair number didn't post, as likely didn't numerous Christians...