Regarding prayer....

A point I tried to make in another thread that was deleted for being off topic I suppose.

A user here, of Christian faith, has a tag in his signature asking us to pray for someone who has been stricken with Lukemia. It reads as follows:

Julian Buuck has leukemia. Please, pray for him, that God will heal him

I then asked:

God won't heal him unless we ask? Shows how much God cares about him. Also what if he dies anyway? Then was it God's will for him to die? Then why did everyone pray? And if God's will is for him to live, he'd heal Julian without anyone having to pray for him. Right? Why ever pray, when God will always do what he wants in the end? Praying is futile. Apparently our cries are worthless in the eyes of God, if he always goes with what he wants in the end. Now, if our cries are worthless to him, he must not care about any of us, or for the things we ask of him. So, if that's the case, why should we worship him, or even give him one speck of our time?!?! Just asking.

Now, anyone is free to answer this of course, since I'm not directly asking this particular user anymore. Why is it that people don't use this deducive logic to realize that the function of prayer, as we currently understand it, is completely nonsensical, and useless?

The religious answer to this would be that it's not unmerciful of God to let the person die, because that person would just be going to heaven anyway, and that the act of prayer is good for you because it strengthens your connection to God.

By the way: It seems distasteful to use a personal plea for prayers on behalf of a very sick friend as an opening for religious argument.

The religious answer to this would be that it's not unmerciful of God to let the person die, because that person would just be going to heaven anyway, and that the act of prayer is good for you because it strengthens your connection to God.

By the way: It seems distasteful to use a personal plea for prayers on behalf of a very sick friend as an opening for religious argument.

The religious answer to this would be that it's not unmerciful of God to let the person die, because that person would just be going to heaven anyway, and that the act of prayer is good for you because it strengthens your connection to God.

By the way: It seems distasteful to use a personal plea for prayers on behalf of a very sick friend as an opening for religious argument.

Prayer is a way to express emotions like anger or sadness that while does not really do anything, helps to relieve stress and give the person courage.unholymight

"Don't take this light away, it never did you any harm"

I think this line from a song is very fitting to this situation.

The religious answer to this would be that it's not unmerciful of God to let the person die, because that person would just be going to heaven anyway, and that the act of prayer is good for you because it strengthens your connection to God.

By the way: It seems distasteful to use a personal plea for prayers on behalf of a very sick friend as an opening for religious argument.

[QUOTE="darkmoney52"][QUOTE="The_Versatile"] Distasteful? I only wish for the guy to realize you have to do MORE than just pray! Just like that couple that lost their little girl, since they rejected the doctor's advice in favor of magic from above. I think it's distasteful for anyone else to encourage and enable the idea that prayer will save sick people! Hello?!?The_Versatile

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="darkmoney52"] If the sig was petitioning people to abandon all medicine in favor of prayer that would be different. Instead, someone who likely had already done what little he could for his friend and then looked for solace in the thought that others were prayering for him was berated by you.darkmoney52

[QUOTE="darkmoney52"][QUOTE="The_Versatile"] Sorry that I live in reality. No, no I'm not sorry. I will NOT encourage the idea that prayer is an effective means of regenerating the sick. It might sound harsh to you, but in reality, I'm actually pushing for a much greater outcome by insisting that we ignore the useless suggestions. Look a little further beyond what you're used to, and you might see that my heart is actually one of purity, as I do not wish to cause that user, or his sick friend any more turmoil. I actually wanted to help him by opening his eyes through constructive criticism. Which was berated, by you.... :roll: Thanks friend.The_Versatile

[QUOTE="darkmoney52"]

The religious answer to this would be that it's not unmerciful of God to let the person die, because that person would just be going to heaven anyway, and that the act of prayer is good for you because it strengthens your connection to God.

By the way: It seems distasteful to use a personal plea for prayers on behalf of a very sick friend as an opening for religious argument.

The_Versatile

dude no offence but ou have no idea.

one of my closest friends was dying in the early 90's. at that time he wasnt religious (he was a believer but didnt worship). he had some lung cancer. in fact, the only way to keep him alive was to install a plastic tube in his lungs (which helped him breath although it was only a temporary solution). one day he decided to start attending church and every night he prayed to be healed and believed that god would heal him. one day he started fealing alot better, and upon visiting his doctor all signs of the cancer had disappeared (when only a few months before that same doctor said that there was no hope for him to live). even more curious was the fact that, that night, he was showering when he felt pressure at his chest. suddenly the afforementioned plastic tube that was keeping him alive (which was at the center of his body inside his lungs) somehow left his body and landed on the floor.

so, id say prayer helps to. btw im religious, and im sick of you athiests trying to disprove religion. its not going to work, you are only annoying people.

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="darkmoney52"]

The religious answer to this would be that it's not unmerciful of God to let the person die, because that person would just be going to heaven anyway, and that the act of prayer is good for you because it strengthens your connection to God.

By the way: It seems distasteful to use a personal plea for prayers on behalf of a very sick friend as an opening for religious argument.

Neo-ganon

dude no offence but ou have no idea.

one of my closest friends was dying in the early 90's. at that time he wasnt religious (he was a believer but didnt worship). he had some lung cancer. in fact, the only way to keep him alive was to install a plastic tube in his lungs (which helped him breath although it was only a temporary solution). one day he decided to start attending church and every night he prayed to be healed and believed that god would heal him. one day he started fealing alot better, and upon visiting his doctor all signs of the cancer had disappeared (when only a few months before that same doctor said that there was no hope for him to live). even more curious was the fact that, that night, he was showering when he felt pressure at his chest. suddenly the afforementioned plastic tube that was keeping him alive (which was at the center of his body inside his lungs) somehow left his body and landed on the floor.

so, id say prayer helps to. btw im religious, and im sick of you athiests trying to disprove religion. its not going to work, you are only annoying people.

I'm not sure what you meant by the first part, am I self-righteous for defending my point? That's not why I said you were self-righteous. I called you self-righteous for the way you implied that religious people don't live in reality, and gave the overall impression that you think of yourself as humanitie's last defense against irrationality. darkmoney52

And while atheism is not a religion, it does stand in contradiction to religion and can still be hurt. darkmoney52

Christian users on this board will now associate people like you with atheism, and have less respect for secular people as a whole. You spread negative stereotypes of atheists as sarcastic, disrespectful people.darkmoney52

so, id say prayer helps to. btw im religious, and im sick of you athiests trying to disprove religion. its not going to work, you are only annoying people.Neo-ganon

From my understanding, Christ told people to ask and it shall be given. Prayer is also not merely an "asking" thing - it can also be to give thanks.D3nnyCrane

[QUOTE="darkmoney52"] I'm not sure what you meant by the first part, am I self-righteous for defending my point? That's not why I said you were self-righteous. I called you self-righteous for the way you implied that religious people don't live in reality, and gave the overall impression that you think of yourself as humanitie's last defense against irrationality. The_Versatile

And while atheism is not a religion, it does stand in contradiction to religion and can still be hurt. darkmoney52

Christian users on this board will now associate people like you with atheism, and have less respect for secular people as a whole. You spread negative stereotypes of atheists as sarcastic, disrespectful people.darkmoney52

[QUOTE="Neo-ganon"][QUOTE="The_Versatile"] Distasteful? I only wish for the guy to realize you have to do MORE than just pray! Just like that couple that lost their little girl, since they rejected the doctor's advice in favor of magic from above. I think it's distasteful for anyone else to encourage and enable the idea that prayer will save sick people! Hello?!?darkmoney52

dude no offence but ou have no idea.

one of my closest friends was dying in the early 90's. at that time he wasnt religious (he was a believer but didnt worship). he had some lung cancer. in fact, the only way to keep him alive was to install a plastic tube in his lungs (which helped him breath although it was only a temporary solution). one day he decided to start attending church and every night he prayed to be healed and believed that god would heal him. one day he started fealing alot better, and upon visiting his doctor all signs of the cancer had disappeared (when only a few months before that same doctor said that there was no hope for him to live). even more curious was the fact that, that night, he was showering when he felt pressure at his chest. suddenly the afforementioned plastic tube that was keeping him alive (which was at the center of his body inside his lungs) somehow left his body and landed on the floor.

so, id say prayer helps to. btw im religious, and im sick of you athiests trying to disprove religion. its not going to work, you are only annoying people.

alot of the athiests i do know always try to disprove of religion, and you know what? its really annoying. most of the time it doesnt bother me, but when i hear, "oh, there is no god, your stupid for being a christian (which i hear alot)," I cant help but feel insulted. we all have common misconceptions about each other. I understand if an athiest doesnt belive in god, but he doesnt have to try to ruin it for the religious else by trying to convert them into athiests!

it is also a common misconception that all religious people try to ram their religions down others throats. this is not true. sure we do go around and try to get people to join our religion, but its not like we are stalking the people we are trying to convert. for us, if we go to a house and the guy isnt interested, ok, well just leave him alone and never come back. thats how it is with my church anyway.

off topic a bit. my point is that its really annoying when an athiest comes up to me and says: "youre an idiot for believing in god." stop trying to convince religious people that there is no god, its not going to work.

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="darkmoney52"] I'm not sure what you meant by the first part, am I self-righteous for defending my point? That's not why I said you were self-righteous. I called you self-righteous for the way you implied that religious people don't live in reality, and gave the overall impression that you think of yourself as humanitie's last defense against irrationality. darkmoney52

And while atheism is not a religion, it does stand in contradiction to religion and can still be hurt. darkmoney52

Christian users on this board will now associate people like you with atheism, and have less respect for secular people as a whole. You spread negative stereotypes of atheists as sarcastic, disrespectful people.darkmoney52

[QUOTE="darkmoney52"][QUOTE="Neo-ganon"]

dude no offence but ou have no idea.

one of my closest friends was dying in the early 90's. at that time he wasnt religious (he was a believer but didnt worship). he had some lung cancer. in fact, the only way to keep him alive was to install a plastic tube in his lungs (which helped him breath although it was only a temporary solution). one day he decided to start attending church and every night he prayed to be healed and believed that god would heal him. one day he started fealing alot better, and upon visiting his doctor all signs of the cancer had disappeared (when only a few months before that same doctor said that there was no hope for him to live). even more curious was the fact that, that night, he was showering when he felt pressure at his chest. suddenly the afforementioned plastic tube that was keeping him alive (which was at the center of his body inside his lungs) somehow left his body and landed on the floor.

so, id say prayer helps to. btw im religious, and im sick of you athiests trying to disprove religion. its not going to work, you are only annoying people.

Neo-ganon

alot of the athiests i do know always try to disprove of religion, and you know what? its really annoying. most of the time it doesnt bother me, but when i hear, "oh, there is no god, your stupid for being a christian (which i hear alot)," I cant help but feel insulted. we all have common misconceptions about each other. I understand if an athiest doesnt belive in god, but he doesnt have to try to ruin it for the religious else by trying to convert them into athiests!

it is also a common misconception that all religious people try to ram their religions down others throats. this is not true. sure we do go around and try to get people to join our religion, but its not like we are stalking the people we are trying to convert. for us, if we go to a house and the guy isnt interested, ok, well just leave him alone and never come back. thats how it is with my church anyway.

off topic a bit. my point is that its really annoying when an athiest comes up to me and says: "youre an idiot for believing in god." stop trying to convince religious people that there is no god, its not going to work.

[QUOTE="Neo-ganon"]so, id say prayer helps to. btw im religious, and im sick of you athiests trying to disprove religion. its not going to work, you are only annoying people.The_Versatile

ok then, explain to me why every doctor he went to told him he was going to die. every single one. they all said that there was no hope, no cure, and no solution. they gave him a year to live. but yet suddenly, when he starts praying he is miraculously healed. its a miracle he is able to do the stuff he is able to do today, let alone survive life threatening cancer. surely, you must think that there was a higher force at work for him. and his ordeal was connected to god, because as soon as he started to truly believe he was healed.

[QUOTE="Neo-ganon"][QUOTE="darkmoney52"] Most atheists here aren't trying to disprove religion, we just enjoy arguing. I expect that any Christian entering a religious topic does as well, or simply enjoys hurting himself.darkmoney52

alot of the athiests i do know always try to disprove of religion, and you know what? its really annoying. most of the time it doesnt bother me, but when i hear, "oh, there is no god, your stupid for being a christian (which i hear alot)," I cant help but feel insulted. we all have common misconceptions about each other. I understand if an athiest doesnt belive in god, but he doesnt have to try to ruin it for the religious else by trying to convert them into athiests!

it is also a common misconception that all religious people try to ram their religions down others throats. this is not true. sure we do go around and try to get people to join our religion, but its not like we are stalking the people we are trying to convert. for us, if we go to a house and the guy isnt interested, ok, well just leave him alone and never come back. thats how it is with my church anyway.

off topic a bit. my point is that its really annoying when an athiest comes up to me and says: "youre an idiot for believing in god." stop trying to convince religious people that there is no god, its not going to work.

no it wasnt directed at you.

dude no offence but ou have no idea.

one of my closest friends was dying in the early 90's. at that time he wasnt religious (he was a believer but didnt worship). he had some lung cancer. in fact, the only way to keep him alive was to install a plastic tube in his lungs (which helped him breath although it was only a temporary solution). one day he decided to start attending church and every night he prayed to be healed and believed that god would heal him. one day he started fealing alot better, and upon visiting his doctor all signs of the cancer had disappeared (when only a few months before that same doctor said that there was no hope for him to live). even more curious was the fact that, that night, he was showering when he felt pressure at his chest. suddenly the afforementioned plastic tube that was keeping him alive (which was at the center of his body inside his lungs) somehow left his body and landed on the floor.

so, id say prayer helps to. btw im religious, and im sick of you athiests trying to disprove religion. its not going to work, you are only annoying people.

alot of the athiests i do know always try to disprove of religion, and you know what? its really annoying. most of the time it doesnt bother me, but when i hear, "oh, there is no god, your stupid for being a christian (which i hear alot)," I cant help but feel insulted. we all have common misconceptions about each other. I understand if an athiest doesnt belive in god, but he doesnt have to try to ruin it for the religious else by trying to convert them into athiests!

it is also a common misconception that all religious people try to ram their religions down others throats. this is not true. sure we do go around and try to get people to join our religion, but its not like we are stalking the people we are trying to convert. for us, if we go to a house and the guy isnt interested, ok, well just leave him alone and never come back. thats how it is with my church anyway.

off topic a bit. my point is that its really annoying when an athiest comes up to me and says: "youre an idiot for believing in god." stop trying to convince religious people that there is no god, its not going to work.

[QUOTE="darkmoney52"][QUOTE="The_Versatile"] I don't spread the negative stereotypes, they do. You just said so, even. :roll:The_Versatile

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="Neo-ganon"]so, id say prayer helps to. btw im religious, and im sick of you athiests trying to disprove religion. its not going to work, you are only annoying people.Neo-ganon

ok then, explain to me why every doctor he went to told him he was going to die. every single one. they all said that there was no hope, no cure, and no solution. they gave him a year to live. but yet suddenly, when he starts praying he is miraculously healed. its a miracle he is able to do the stuff he is able to do today, let alone survive life threatening cancer. surely, you must think that there was a higher force at work for him. and his ordeal was connected to god, because as soon as he started to truly believe he was healed.

Because doctors can be wrong.

I, myself, healed from an infection in the side of my head which had swelled to grotesque proportions when I was just 2 years old. My mother thought I had died when she woke up the next morning and saw the doctors all surrounding my bed. They were all spellbound because they too thought I was doomed and couldn't believe their eyes when I was propped up in bed with a big smile on my face, and the infection COMPLETELY gone. Some things are just not understood about diseases, infections, and such. There was no miracle at play. God didn't save me. It just was what it was. The hope your friend started to feel in his prayers could have acted as a placebo as well. It's amazing what the human body and mind can do when they're convinced....

You're stuck on his recovery being from God - your God, conveniently enough - and ignoring every other possibility, which includes the possibility that maybe he was MISDIAGNOSED. It happens all the time. Your belief, as well as your story, are completely hinged upon the idea that the doctors couldn't have been wrong, until they were proven wrong by God? I ask you... why did you believe the doctors when they told him he was going to die, but when he healed, all of the sudden the doctors didn't know crap? Maybe they didn't know crap from the get-go and misdiagnosed your buddy? Think about that? Doctors are humans and they make mistakes.

Chill out a little bit. As I said before, I have no problem with you making your point, I only took issue with your attitude. darkmoney52

[QUOTE="D3nnyCrane"]From my understanding, Christ told people to ask and it shall be given. Prayer is also not merely an "asking" thing - it can also be to give thanks.The_Versatile

[QUOTE="Neo-ganon"]

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"] That just ruined your whole story. You're religious. Of course you're going to try and make your friend's ordeal sound as connected to God as possible, while ignoring all the other things that factored into his healing. If it's even a true story. I don't care if you're sick of atheists. Maybe atheists are sick of you? Ever think of that? But you won't budge, right? Then don't ask the atheists to sto either. If anything, why don't you take your savior's advice and try to be the peacemaker. But no....The_Versatile

ok then, explain to me why every doctor he went to told him he was going to die. every single one. they all said that there was no hope, no cure, and no solution. they gave him a year to live. but yet suddenly, when he starts praying he is miraculously healed. its a miracle he is able to do the stuff he is able to do today, let alone survive life threatening cancer. surely, you must think that there was a higher force at work for him. and his ordeal was connected to god, because as soon as he started to truly believe he was healed.

so youre telling me that all 10 doctors, using the latest in medical technology while cross checking and double checking everything, were able to misdaiagnose a deadly cancer?

Thats not possible, i cant believe that. no human being, doctor or not, is that incompitent that they would make a simple mistake leading to the mislabeling of a deadly cancer, even when the subject has all the signs and all the tests prove positive that he has cancer. sure doctors are humans and yes humans do make mistakes. but that still doesnt deny the fact that he had a deadly cancer and was on the verge of death. nothing can change that. but then once he starts praying to be healed he is automatically cured. this is what i like to call a miracle my boy. its all about the faith.

[QUOTE="darkmoney52"]Chill out a little bit. As I said before, I have no problem with you making your point, I only took issue with your attitude. The_Versatile

[QUOTE="Neo-ganon"][QUOTE="darkmoney52"] Most atheists here aren't trying to disprove religion, we just enjoy arguing. I expect that any Christian entering a religious topic does as well, or simply enjoys hurting himself.The_Versatile

alot of the athiests i do know always try to disprove of religion, and you know what? its really annoying. most of the time it doesnt bother me, but when i hear, "oh, there is no god, your stupid for being a christian (which i hear alot)," I cant help but feel insulted. we all have common misconceptions about each other. I understand if an athiest doesnt belive in god, but he doesnt have to try to ruin it for the religious else by trying to convert them into athiests!

it is also a common misconception that all religious people try to ram their religions down others throats. this is not true. sure we do go around and try to get people to join our religion, but its not like we are stalking the people we are trying to convert. for us, if we go to a house and the guy isnt interested, ok, well just leave him alone and never come back. thats how it is with my church anyway.

off topic a bit. my point is that its really annoying when an athiest comes up to me and says: "youre an idiot for believing in god." stop trying to convince religious people that there is no god, its not going to work.

and prayer is not an absolute waste of time. some people pray to be healed, others pray to give thanks, while alot of religious people pray simply to say "hi" to god. and what "strawmen" do you speak of? and i never said you were trying to convert anyone and im not saying that all athiest are like this. im merely sating tmy opinion that it is very annoying when some athiests (not all of them) try to (keyword: try) convert christians when its not going to work (becuase i know athiests who try to do this).

so youre telling me that all 10 doctors, using the latest in medical technology while cross checking and double checking everything, were able to misdaiagnose a deadly cancer?

Thats not possible, i cant believe that. no human being, doctor or not, is that incompitent that they would make a simple mistake leading to the mislabeling of a deadly cancer, even when the subject has all the signs and all the tests prove positive that he has cancer. sure doctors are humans and yes humans do make mistakes. but that still doesnt deny the fact that he had a deadly cancer and was on the verge of death. nothing can change that. but then once he starts praying to be healed he is automatically cured. this is what i like to call a miracle my boy. its all about the faith.

Neo-ganon

See what I mean? You're dead-set on this being from God. I couldn't change your mind anyway. I only express my feelings to you, based upon what I know. Which is why it's so ridiculous to think that I trying to convert anyone. People convert, or de-convert, when they want to, not when someone pushes them. Understanding that, do you think I'd waste my time trying to de-convert anyone? When theists claim that I'm trying to make them de-convert, it only makes me think that I must have struck a nerve in them, that made them actually think about something they didn't expect to think about. And they apparently don't like that. :roll:

And yes, all 10 doctors can make the same misdiagnosis, because they all come from the same school of thought. They all base their diagnoses on what they've learned about medicine. Almost all medical study is based around the same discoveries. So you just go ahead and keep telling yourself that all 10 doctors were completely different...well, they couldn't have been, because they all made the same diagnosis. How many ways can I explain this to you?

[QUOTE="D3nnyCrane"]From my understanding, Christ told people to ask and it shall be given. Prayer is also not merely an "asking" thing - it can also be to give thanks.The_Versatile

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="D3nnyCrane"]From my understanding, Christ told people to ask and it shall be given. Prayer is also not merely an "asking" thing - it can also be to give thanks.Ragnarok1051

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="darkmoney52"]Chill out a little bit. As I said before, I have no problem with you making your point, I only took issue with your attitude. darkmoney52

[QUOTE="Neo-ganon"]

so youre telling me that all 10 doctors, using the latest in medical technology while cross checking and double checking everything, were able to misdaiagnose a deadly cancer?

Thats not possible, i cant believe that. no human being, doctor or not, is that incompitent that they would make a simple mistake leading to the mislabeling of a deadly cancer, even when the subject has all the signs and all the tests prove positive that he has cancer. sure doctors are humans and yes humans do make mistakes. but that still doesnt deny the fact that he had a deadly cancer and was on the verge of death. nothing can change that. but then once he starts praying to be healed he is automatically cured. this is what i like to call a miracle my boy. its all about the faith.

The_Versatile

See what I mean? You're dead-set on this being from God. I couldn't change your mind anyway. I only express my feelings to you, based upon what I know. Which is why it's so ridiculous to think that I trying to convert anyone. People convert, or de-convert, when they want to, not when someone pushes them. Understanding that, do you think I'd waste my time trying to de-convert anyone? When theists claim that I'm trying to make them de-convert, it only makes me think that I must have struck a nerve in them, that made them actually think about something they didn't expect to think about. And they apparently don't like that. :roll:

And yes, all 10 doctors can make the same misdiagnosis, because they all come from the same school of thought. They all base their diagnoses on what they've learned about medicine. Almost all medical study is based around the same discoveries. So you just go ahead and keep telling yourself that all 10 doctors were completely different...well, they couldn't have been, because they all made the same diagnosis. How many ways can I explain this to you?

-facepalm-

im not dead set on this being from god you ignorant athiest troll. im simply voicing my opinion by saying that there is no other way my friend could have lived. there really wasnt. when all those doctors with their ph.d's diagnosed him with terminal cancer and say that there is no hope for survival, yet he does live, dont you think that there was a higher force at work that had plans for him in the future?

The_Versatile, did it ever occur to you that people pray because they want to? because it makes some people happy? i dont know about you but i know plenty of religious folk who feel very comfortable after prayer. they say its a spiritual connection. why do you discredit prayer if it makes people feel good? if you are talking bad about prayer because it makes people happy knowing that they are on a good level with god, then you might as well talk down on other things that all people do. like eating food. or breathing. like prayer alot of people need those things to live... Neo-ganon

[QUOTE="Ragnarok1051"][QUOTE="TheDawnofFlames"]I have no idea. You should know this, it's your religion. TheDawnofFlames

[QUOTE="Ragnarok1051"][QUOTE="TheDawnofFlames"] Get off of GameSpot, go into your closet and practice. TheDawnofFlames

oh you flaming little troll... religion doesnt condone homosexuality. get the facts strait.

[QUOTE="darkmoney52"][QUOTE="The_Versatile"] I don't care! I'm not your child. Deal with it. And where was my "attitude" in the first post? There wasn't any. It was a perfectly valid question. This is an excuse you've only brought into the discussion from a later point, to keep from falling off your perch. The_Versatile

[QUOTE="TheDawnofFlames"][QUOTE="Ragnarok1051"] May I ask what I am supposed to be practicing? Neo-ganon

oh you flaming little troll... religion doesnt condone homosexuality. get the facts strait.