Should the minimum wage be lower?

I sure think so. We have many people complaining about the minimum wage being too low to live on and/or support a family. This is bs... Why the hell do you have a family if you make minimum wage? Furthermore, jobs that pay minimum wage are entry level and do not deserve any substantial compensation. Should someone who cleans toilets really make a good living? Lowering the minimum wage will help people aspire to be better. The minimum wage allows for lazy people to cruise... if we lower it they will either become more useful to the society or die... it is a win win situation.

BenedictArnold7

"should someone who cleans toilets really make a good living"- they should make a decent living. Enough to afford some housing, healthcare, food, necessary clothing, hygiene, basic utilities.

"minimum wage allows for lazy people to cruise" - There are hard working people making minimum wage.

"They will either become more useful to society or die" - a person's worth is not measured by their "usefulness" to society. And letting them die is cruel. Besides a person's wage does not necessarily reflect their usefulness to society, low paying jobs like janitors are vital to society, while some high paying jobs, like professional athletes, are not that important.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="BeardMaster"]

 

Nobody is arguing that these things cant be done, but the attitude that everyone can succeed if they try is simply wrong.

 

Thats the problem with going off personal experience or anectdotal evidence. You know some welders making 6 figures? great. Unfortunately the national average hourly wage for a welder is $18.64 so basing your opinion off a couple welders you know gives you an incredibly skewed and incorrect view of the labor market.

 

So for every welder you know making 6 figures, there are probably 20 making 12 bucks an hour.

WhiteKnight77

No, I am talking welders or more specifically, boilermakers. They are making $45 or more an hour working 12 hours a day 7 days a week until a job is done if they are on a shutdown though they may be only working 5/40s for new construction. Heck, even my cousin who is a millwright makes six figures and only works part of the year. Even journeyman plumbers can make six figures.

"why do you have a family if you make minimum wage" - there are multiple reasons. A lot of people probably had a better paying job and a family, and lost their better paying job due to layoffs and have had to take minimum wage jobs.

Yet when they lose the cushy job, they refuse to give up their lifestyle, and complain because "At minimum wage i cant afford 2 leases, a nice house, and 6 children"

"should someone who cleans toilets really make a good living"- they should make a decent living. Enough to afford some housing, healthcare, food, necessary clothing, hygiene, basic utilities.

Yes, but is that "some housing" in a nice appartment in new york? Or whatever the cheapest housing avalable is?

"minimum wage allows for lazy people to cruise" - There are hard working people making minimum wage.

If they were hard working, they would have learned a skill. It's like claiming to be an excellent student, who gets bad grades and thus has no future because of it. It's an oxymoron.

"They will either become more useful to society or die" - a person's worth is not measured by their "usefulness" to society. And letting them die is cruel. Besides a person's wage does not necessarily reflect their usefulness to society, low paying jobs like janitors are vital to society, while some high paying jobs, like professional athletes, are not that important.

People die every day, and a person's worth is as people see it.
The homeless guy who never moves from his street corner, really isn't helping anyone, He's a leech trying to collect the hard work of others.
Janitors are paid low wages, because it's a no-skill job, and he/she only helps the owner of the building. Where as Atheletes and Actors are entertaining millions, if millions all throw a few dollars their way, they've already made more than a janitor.

whipassmt

I've never understood why it even exists in the first place. It doesn't even cover living expenses in most of the US and Canada.foxhound_fox

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]I've never understood why it even exists in the first place. It doesn't even cover living expenses in most of the US and Canada.Nibroc420

Maybe if you live in the middle of nowhere. Certainly not in cities like Vancouver.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]I've never understood why it even exists in the first place. It doesn't even cover living expenses in most of the US and Canada.one_plum

Maybe if you live in the middle of nowhere. Certainly not in cities like Vancouver.

There are exceptions. The Atlanta area is not a cheap place to live, but you can find reasonable housing if you look around. Will it be in a nice area? Maybe, maybe not. One has to weigh the pros and cons of living somewhere based on what they earn. You cannot live in a $1000 a month apartment in the nice area of town unless you take in a roommate or become someone else's roommate where rent and bills can be shared. If one wants to go it alone, then one can expect to live in a less attractive side of town.

One thing that many people do not do is take up their state, county or city labor departments tools for getting a better job. Cobb County has a deal called Cobb Works that helps one find employment while one is getting unemployment insurance where you find a company willing to take you on and teach you the skills you would need without pay and at the end of the time period could either hire you full time or let you go and allows you to find a job elsewhere with your new found skills. 

There really is no reason why someone on minimum wage cannot use the resources available to everyone to better themselves.

[QUOTE="megagene"]If everyone aspired to be "better", and no one worked minimum wage jobs, who exactly would clean the toilets and flip your burgers and stock the grocery shelves? awptical

I'm 18, and I'll be honest, there are a lot of minimum wage jobs that teens simply won't do.  The vast majority of teenagers are not going to take a nitty gritty, gross job.  That's just how it is-they're not desperate enough.  Pretty much all my friends, and friends of friends I know work either in retail or fast food.  

Why?  Well, obviously those are common, but the thing is teens get jobs mostly so that they can afford luxury items, or things that aren't neccessities.  Things like gas for a car, movies, video games, meals with friends etc.  Most Americans teens are not going to be desperate enough, or put in a situation where they really need to take a super unappealing job, and that's a good thing, we don't want our society to be like that.

If you really expect teens to fill every low-paying job though, you're being naive.

Inb4 someone replies back with how they worked a disgusting job as a teen, and they were happy about it!

I sure think so.  We have many people complaining about the minimum wage being too low to live on and/or support a family.  This is bs... Why the hell do you have a family if you make minimum wage?  Furthermore, jobs that pay minimum wage are entry level and do not deserve any substantial compensation.  Should someone who cleans toilets really make a good living?  Lowering the minimum wage will help people aspire to be better.   The minimum wage allows for lazy people to cruise... if we lower it they will either become more useful to the society or die... it is a win win situation.  

BenedictArnold7

Wow, this guy is one thing wrong with the world today.  How would giving people less inspire them to do better?  Should they take that small wage and go to school to do better?  You understand some folks hands are tied yes?  Some people have a family on minimum wage because they never planned to have a kid in the first place, there's one reason.  

As a construction worker I see the guys that come clean the jonny's.  They make a good living, they are also some pretty happy folk when you talk to them.  When I get laid off in the winter I work at a plant that makes plastic.  Every week my shift changes, from Days, Afternoons, and Nights.  I laugh at my pay from there and it's a couple dollars over minimum wage.  If I had to do that job all year I would simply go backwards.  

If you think that people working an honest job that hardly get paid enough to live as it is should get paid less..........  You really need to crawl out from that rock you're under!

I would like to se the op work a minimum wage job, not everyone wants to risk going to university getting themeselves into debt for a job that you may not get. 

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="mingmao3046"]Yea because we can totally just raise the minimum wage from $7.25 to $12 and expect no side effects at all.... Yea why dont we go ahead and do that....mingmao3046

The answer to this question really depends on what the corporation in question does with their profits.

The answer to this question really depends on what the corporation in question does with their profits.

lo_Pine

[QUOTE="lo_Pine"]

The answer to this question really depends on what the corporation in question does with their profits.

Ace6301

 But CEOs do not even make their money from the profits of their business. They make all their money through the stock options they get which has no direct connection to the profits their business makes. As long as businesses are expanding then we can't say that profits aren't being used wisely. Sure, they could expand a little more if CEOs did not pocket some money but not by much.

Also, the owners of the business and the business they operate are treated as separate entities. The salary CEOs make are separate from the profits the business generates as the CEOs salary is included in the bottom line. Not saying shady things don't happen but even if they do, the money they pocket is immaterial.

I honestly think it would be better for government to step on the throats of corporations that have been sucking the system dry.. Wallmart is a top offender of this in pretty much ensuring workers get paid less by either cutting hours or rarely ever giving raises.. TO trying to show the workers in how to become eligible for government aid just so they don't have to pay for services like health care.. People like to say that the welfare squatter is the main leech.. I would disagree.. I think it is places like Walmart because of the fact they cost the system so much more while, soaring in sales.. sSubZerOo

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]I honestly think it would be better for government to step on the throats of corporations that have been sucking the system dry.. Wallmart is a top offender of this in pretty much ensuring workers get paid less by either cutting hours or rarely ever giving raises.. TO trying to show the workers in how to become eligible for government aid just so they don't have to pay for services like health care.. People like to say that the welfare squatter is the main leech.. I would disagree.. I think it is places like Walmart because of the fact they cost the system so much more while, soaring in sales.. lo_Pine

... They destroy competitors by either buying them out or running them out of business.. So no to suggest they create jobs isn't always the case.. Walmart is known for their employee horror stories and for the people who probably work for less.. THOSE are the people who are desperate.. The minimum wage in most places already isn't livable, especially if you have a dependent.. Meaning if your going to work for less, it pretty much signifies your desperate and that is your only option.

[QUOTE="lo_Pine"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]I honestly think it would be better for government to step on the throats of corporations that have been sucking the system dry.. Wallmart is a top offender of this in pretty much ensuring workers get paid less by either cutting hours or rarely ever giving raises.. TO trying to show the workers in how to become eligible for government aid just so they don't have to pay for services like health care.. People like to say that the welfare squatter is the main leech.. I would disagree.. I think it is places like Walmart because of the fact they cost the system so much more while, soaring in sales.. sSubZerOo

... They destroy competitors by either buying them out or running them out of business.. So no to suggest they create jobs isn't always the case.. Walmart is known for their employee horror stories and for the people who probably work for less.. THOSE are the people who are desperate.. The minimum wage in most places already isn't livable, especially if you have a dependent.. Meaning if your going to work for less, it pretty much signifies your desperate and that is your only option.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="lo_Pine"] Walmart is not really sucking the system dry. They are hiring more people by opening more stores. And the people they hire are usually low skilled workers who benefit from the minimum wage as those people would probably work for less if there was no minimum wage.lo_Pine

... They destroy competitors by either buying them out or running them out of business.. So no to suggest they create jobs isn't always the case.. Walmart is known for their employee horror stories and for the people who probably work for less.. THOSE are the people who are desperate.. The minimum wage in most places already isn't livable, especially if you have a dependent.. Meaning if your going to work for less, it pretty much signifies your desperate and that is your only option.

:| Ah yes because talking about having a "livable" wage means one of being glamorous and comfortable..

[QUOTE="lo_Pine"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

... They destroy competitors by either buying them out or running them out of business.. So no to suggest they create jobs isn't always the case.. Walmart is known for their employee horror stories and for the people who probably work for less.. THOSE are the people who are desperate.. The minimum wage in most places already isn't livable, especially if you have a dependent.. Meaning if your going to work for less, it pretty much signifies your desperate and that is your only option.

sSubZerOo

:| Ah yes because talking about having a "livable" wage means one of being glamorous and comfortable..

[QUOTE="lo_Pine"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

... They destroy competitors by either buying them out or running them out of business.. So no to suggest they create jobs isn't always the case.. Walmart is known for their employee horror stories and for the people who probably work for less.. THOSE are the people who are desperate.. The minimum wage in most places already isn't livable, especially if you have a dependent.. Meaning if your going to work for less, it pretty much signifies your desperate and that is your only option.

sSubZerOo

:| Ah yes because talking about having a "livable" wage means one of being glamorous and comfortable..

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="lo_Pine"] The lives of the low skilled whose only option is a minimum wage job or worse is not one that should glamorous or comfortable. This is where economics leaves the discussion and ideology enters.Nibroc420

:| Ah yes because talking about having a "livable" wage means one of being glamorous and comfortable..

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:| Ah yes because talking about having a "livable" wage means one of being glamorous and comfortable..

surrealnumber5

I like the Singaporean government's approach to it, no minimum wage, but the government will supplement the income of those low income earners Lonelynight

on topic: i really hate shoulds especially at the federal level, situational awareness key, uniform policies are dumb, and no, i dont need a better argument. surrealnumber5

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]on topic: i really hate shoulds especially at the federal level, situational awareness key, uniform policies are dumb, and no, i dont need a better argument. Ace6301

[QUOTE="megagene"]If everyone aspired to be "better", and no one worked minimum wage jobs, who exactly would clean the toilets and flip your burgers and stock the grocery shelves? awptical

It must be the summer vaction. kids have too much spare time on their hands

It doesn't matter much either way. Changing the bottom rung on the ladder changes nothing as all other rungs change in accordance. Adjustments to min wage always occur after the mean average of bottom rung pay already reaches that thresold in the free market. And product prices adjust to demand based on cash flow of the consuming market.

If you raise min wage significantly above the current market you just create inflation and vice versa. Or you substitute a change in wages with a change in gov't safety net spending.

It is largely a meaningless and pointless concept because at the public policy level we treat it as a lagging indicator and generally prefer not to change it until the market is pretty much ready to and is doing so already. Other than that it is just a politics speaking point.

Why the hell do you have a family if you make minimum wageBenedictArnold7

has no choice but to take minimum wage job.JustBeYourself

[QUOTE="JustBeYourself"] has no choice but to take minimum wage job.Nibroc420

How is that the easy way out if you have consistently pointed out that people can easily get a good job by studying in trades?

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="JustBeYourself"] has no choice but to take minimum wage job.one_plum

How is that the easy way out if you have consistently pointed out that people can easily get a good job by studying in trades?

[QUOTE="one_plum"]

How is that the easy way out if you have consistently pointed out that people can easily get a good job by studying in trades?

Nibroc420

I recognize the importance of personal responsibility, but if the dropout rate is so high, is there something more than an individual problem? or is it also a social problem that needs to be scrutinized?

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="one_plum"]

How is that the easy way out if you have consistently pointed out that people can easily get a good job by studying in trades?

one_plum

I recognize the importance of personal responsibility, but if the dropout rate is so high, is there something more than an individual problem? or is it also a social problem that needs to be scrutinized?

[QUOTE="one_plum"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Trades still require some initial training, and usually a high school diploma. The number of drop-outs is absolutely nuts.Nibroc420

I recognize the importance of personal responsibility, but if the dropout rate is so high, is there something more than an individual problem? or is it also a social problem that needs to be scrutinized?

I tried searching for "student debt consumerism" and "student debt materialism" but I can't find anything on the front page. Anyways, maybe those with nice cars are actually those who are successful, just a thought. I can't say I know many friends (who come from various university backgrounds) who have more than a Hyundai Accent and who have moved out of the house... except for those who studied engineering.