So. . . . I wanna ask this guy out. . . . .*UPDATED*

[QUOTE="WtFDragon"][QUOTE="web966"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

A robot can't want things. I will not have gay sex. Whether you can accept that or not is your misguided issue.

None. I already said: I don't intend to get married or have children. After college I intend to quit dating altogether, unless I can find another celibate man.

LJS9502_basic

So you have chosen to be alone your whole life? Sucks to be you.

Why does it suck? I think those who remain single in pursuit of a higher calling are quite laudable people. Cannot a live lived in study, service, and creative pursuits be very fulfilling as well?

Also true. :)

Screw religion man, if your gay be gay.

web966

My religion means more to me than my sexuality.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

That's impossible. You're not a robot no matter how hard you try to be one. ;)

What are you going to do if you get close to someone? "I really like you, but we can't go any further because I don't want to sin." That'll end it right there. What partner of yours will ever put up with that for long?

Genetic_Code

Ye who have little faith.

Exactly.

Deity, you don't get it: he's not a robot, yes, precisely because he realizes that he doesn't need to be sexually active in order ot just be. The robots here are the people who think that unless you're having sex, you're not really living life.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="web966"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

A robot can't want things. I will not have gay sex. Whether you can accept that or not is your misguided issue.

None. I already said: I don't intend to get married or have children. After college I intend to quit dating altogether, unless I can find another celibate man.

web966

So you have chosen to be alone your whole life? Sucks to be you.

Sucks to be me.

Screw religion man, if your gay be gay.

Can not a person be both? Can not a person value the former and live the latter as he or she chooses to do so?

[QUOTE="legend26"]

im sorry, just dont really understand, your gay but you believe homosexual sex is wrong?

Theokhoth

Yes. Just as I can be straight and believe heterosexual sex before marriage is wrong.

But you didn't say homosexual sex was wrong before marriage, you just said it was wrong...period. You keep making unbalanced comparisons, Theo. I don't think making analogies is one of your stronger points, just for the sake of constructive criticism.

But still, to hold the belief that homosexual sex is ACTUALLY WRONG, while simultaneously being homosexual...is just mind-blowing. You're not doing anything to defend your own kind on this one, and it seems that religious opinions have influenced your now apparent confusion, and bitterness.

You need help bro, and I say that in all seriousness. Not to be mean. Really, seek a counselor to help you , since you're not taking what I say seriously, even though I'm NOT trying to flame you.

But whatever. Do what you want I guess. Be miserable if you want. I don't know why I get involved in discussions like this. I try to help and you just throw it back in my face. Why don't you put our differences aside if you can, and try to see the value in the things I'm saying? You know that's the only reason you're resisting me...because of our past disagreements. Let it go, be mature...or hell, even... :shock: "grow up"? As YOU say... ;)

Deity_Slapper

I stayed with my wife when she said that to me. And the only other girl I ever dated, I respected in the same way. And they both respected me in that way as well -- our agreements regarding pre-marital abstinence were mutual.

That's a part of what love is about: mutual respect. Personally, if anyone wanted to leave me because I said "here, and no further" over sexual issues, the door couldn't hit 'em on the butt fast enough.

WtFDragon

The point was that the frustration on the other end would lead to his partner leaving him. How can he show his affection for his partner if he believes he's going to be causing him to sin? They'd have to split up when one tries to be intimate and the other declines. It would cause confusion. Maybe even feelings that he's not good enough for intimacy.

But I didn't say they couldn't remain friends.

I'm really not sure what to think here.. Your gay but your against it, so your going single your whole life. I commend you for accepting your sexuality, not so much for not beleiving in who you are, but its also part of your religion which i have to accept is part of you, but i disagree with all religions. So i'll just say.

Hope it all works out?

But you didn't say homosexual sex was wrong before marriage, you just said it was wrong...period. You keep making unbalanced comparisons, Theo. I don't think making analogies is one of your stronger points, just for the sake of constructive criticism.Deity_Slapper

So he believes it's wrong. So what? His choice, and both he and others have and will continue to live fulfilling lives despite having made it. Or perhaps, at least in part, because they made it.

But still, to hold the belief that homosexual sex is ACTUALLY WRONG, while simultaneously being homosexual...is just mind-blowing.Deity_Slapper

Why? Can not we believe that we are being tested? Besides, its not the state of being homosexual that Theo really thinks is wrong; what he thinks is wrong is the acts themselves. He can separate, in his mind, the act from the actor, and so to his mind homosexuality -- the state of being -- is not wrong, and is not in conflict with his view that any sexual act, heterosexual or homosexual, is wrong if it happens outside of marriage betwen a man and a woman.

That's hardly a destructive belief.

You're not doing anything to defend your own kind on this one, and it seems that religious opinions have influenced your now apparent confusion, and bitterness.Deity_Slapper

So what? He's religious. Big deal. About 76% of Americans, and an even higher percentage globally, are religious or spiritual in some way, so it's not like he's in the minority here. And if he places value on his faith as a guide and source of teaching, is it not correct that he should allow it to influence his decisions?

You need help bro, and I say that in all seriousness. Not to be mean. Really, seek a counselor to help you , since you're not taking what I say seriously, even though I'm NOT trying to flame you.

But whatever. Do what you want I guess. Be miserable if you want. I don't know why I get involved in discussions like this. I try to help and you just throw it back in my face.Deity_Slapper

Why don't you put our differences aside if you can, and try to see the value in the things I'm saying? You know that's the only reason you're resisting me...because of our past disagreements. Let it go, be mature...or hell, even... :shock: "grow up"? As YOU say... ;)

Deity_Slapper

Might be a good idea for the both of y'all.

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

That's impossible. You're not a robot no matter how hard you try to be one. ;)

What are you going to do if you get close to someone? "I really like you, but we can't go any further because I don't want to sin." That'll end it right there. What partner of yours will ever put up with that for long?

WtFDragon

Ye who have little faith.

Exactly.

Deity, you don't get it: he's not a robot, yes, precisely because he realizes that he doesn't need to be sexually active in order ot just be. The robots here are the people who think that unless you're having sex, you're not really living life.

Irony. :lol:

First of all, it seems the "ye who have little faith" comment was sarcastic, as in, yes he could be a robot if he really tries.

Second, I never said that if you don't have sex, you're not really living. That's insanity.

And third, from an earlier post, you asked, "why all the hate?" I don't see any. What are you looking at?

Fourth, LJ, who the hell is MC? Does MC stand for something? Regardless, it's not me anyway. My old username started with a "K", and that's all I'm saying for now.

[QUOTE="web966"]

Screw religion man, if your gay be gay.

Theokhoth

My religion means more to me than my sexuality.

An adopted belief system means more to you than your actual self? :?

[QUOTE="web966"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="web966"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

A robot can't want things. I will not have gay sex. Whether you can accept that or not is your misguided issue.

None. I already said: I don't intend to get married or have children. After college I intend to quit dating altogether, unless I can find another celibate man.

WtFDragon

So you have chosen to be alone your whole life? Sucks to be you.

Sucks to be me.

Screw religion man, if your gay be gay.

Can not a person be both? Can not a person value the former and live the latter as he or she chooses to do so?

Not if his religion condemns homosexuality.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="legend26"]

im sorry, just dont really understand, your gay but you believe homosexual sex is wrong?

Deity_Slapper

Yes. Just as I can be straight and believe heterosexual sex before marriage is wrong.

But you didn't say homosexual sex was wrong before marriage, you just said it was wrong...period. You keep making unbalanced comparisons, Theo. I don't think making analogies is one of your stronger points, just for the sake of constructive criticism.

Said the guy who can't seem to comprehend that homosexual attractions =/= homosexual actions.

But still, to hold the belief that homosexual sex is ACTUALLY WRONG, while simultaneously being homosexual...is just mind-blowing.

I'm a mind-blowing person.

You're not doing anything to defend your own kind on this one,

My own kind are Christians. If homosexuals have a problem with what I say, then to them I say "It's my life****" I think they'll understand.

and it seems that religious opinions have influenced your now apparent confusion,

I never said I was confused. I used to be confused, but I've long-since passed that stage.

and bitterness.

I'm bitter to YOU. Because you just bring that out in people. It hasn't anything to do with my sexuality, or my religion or anything of that sort.

You need help bro,

Therapy, you mean? Talk about homophobic. . . .but it's not homosexuality you fear, is it?

and I say that in all seriousness.

Uh-huh.

Not to be mean. Really, seek a counselor to help you , since you're not taking what I say seriously, even though I'm NOT trying to flame you.

That's the worst part. You think you're a nice guy, or a messiah, or something of the nature when the fact of the matter is, despite what you believe, YOU ARE NOT. You are belligerent and rude.

But whatever. Do what you want I guess. Be miserable if you want. I don't know why I get involved in discussions like this.

A question that boggles the very mind of God, I assure you.

I try to help and you just throw it back in my face.

I'm not asking for help. You're insisting that I need help based on some assumption that I'm going to go insane later in life because of my own decisions.:lol:

Why don't you put our differences aside if you can, and try to see the value in the things I'm saying?

I think I hear my dog calling. . . .

You know that's the only reason you're resisting me...because of our past disagreements.

And your current "you need help because of your religious beliefs" crap. That's kinda contributing to it.

All I can say is a god who would tempt one of his followers in such a way yet deny him at every turn is nothing short of sadistic. If you truly believe your god is loving, it only makes sense that you should look into other more lenient Christian schools of thought on homosexuality. They may not change your mind, but you do at least owe it to yourself. espoac

Deny?

Look, I am aware of the ramifications, and I am not blaming God, or even religion, AT ALL. I have no issue with that. It doesn't bother me. Why does it bother so many atheists?

The point was that the frustration on the other end would lead to his partner leaving him.

Deity_Slapper

Why? Did it frustrate me, sometimes and in a moment of weakness, when my then-fiancé resisted my advances? Yeah, it did. But hey, I stayed, we waited, we're married now, and our first is due in October. Frustration is a part of life -- we get past it.

How can he show his affection for his partner if he believes he's going to be causing him to sin?Deity_Slapper

I'm sure there's plenty of room for intimacy and affection outside of the bedroom, and without the need for the removal of clothing. Or, to be more plain, without the need for sex.

They'd have to split up when one tries to be intimate and the other declines.Deity_Slapper

Do you leave every girl who says "not tonight, sweetie" to you? Why would it be over. If people respect each other, they even respect each other when they say "no" to each other, don't they?

It would cause confusion. Maybe even feelings that he's not good enough for intimacy.Deity_Slapper

Possibly. Possibly. But then, possibly not; if the two of them are committed to the lifestyle, they will find many other non-sexual ways to be intimate and affectionate, and to avoid confusion.

But I didn't say they couldn't remain friends.

Deity_Slapper

And perhaps much more than that.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"] LJS9502_basic

Crying "ad hominem" all the time doesn't bring any respect to your side, and I don't want Theo on my side. I wish for him to be on his own side. Just trying to help him. It's funny that you label constructive criticism as "ad hominem" all the time...what's your obsession with that phrase? Is this a debate class or an internet forum? There are no debating rules here. Get that through, if you can. It's getting silly. :roll:

LJ's "ad hominem" count - 2,436, and counting...

I'm really not sure what to think here.. Your gay but your against it, so your going single your whole life. I commend you for accepting your sexuality, not so much for not beleiving in who you are, but its also part of your religion which i have to accept is part of you, but i disagree with all religions. So i'll just say.

Hope it all works out?

FrostyPhantasm

You miss the point. Theo does believe in who he is, and is being true to it. Who we are is more than who we're attracted to; it's also a function of what we believe. And of other things besides.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="web966"]

Screw religion man, if your gay be gay.

Deity_Slapper

My religion means more to me than my sexuality.

An adopted belief system means more to you than your actual self? :?

My actual self is determined by the choices I make and the beliefs I adopt. My religion is more a part of me than my homosexuality. In truth, if I were to try to get therapy for it, as you suggest, that is when I'd be more likely to go insane.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"] Deity_Slapper

Crying "ad hominem" all the time doesn't bring any respect to your side, and I don't want Theo on my side. I wish for him to be on his own side. Just trying to help him. It's funny that you label constructive criticism as "ad hominem" all the time...what's your obsession with that phrase? Is this a debate class or an internet forum? There are no debating rules here. Get that through, if you can. It's getting silly. :roll:

LJ's "ad hominem" count - 2,436, and counting...

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="web966"]

Screw religion man, if your gay be gay.

Deity_Slapper

My religion means more to me than my sexuality.

An adopted belief system means more to you than your actual self? :?

He believes it's true. Based on the scope of what he believes is true, yes, it is more important to him.

So what? Many people have led very full lives operating under the exact same mode of belief, including many who have opted for a celibate life.

All I can say is a god who would tempt one of his followers in such a way yet deny him at every turn is nothing short of sadistic. If you truly believe your god is loving, it only makes sense that you should look into other more lenient Christian schools of thought on homosexuality. They may not change your mind, but you do at least owe it to yourself. espoac

Why sadistic? And why does he owe it to himself? He believes that his own sexuality is less important that his relationship with God...so why would he attempt to invert the arrangement?

[QUOTE="WtFDragon"][QUOTE="web966"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="web966"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

A robot can't want things. I will not have gay sex. Whether you can accept that or not is your misguided issue.

None. I already said: I don't intend to get married or have children. After college I intend to quit dating altogether, unless I can find another celibate man.

web966

So you have chosen to be alone your whole life? Sucks to be you.

Sucks to be me.

Screw religion man, if your gay be gay.

Can not a person be both? Can not a person value the former and live the latter as he or she chooses to do so?

Not if his religion condemns homosexuality.

Does not follow. ;) And also not an answer to my full question.

Can a person value religion? Of course.

Can a person value religion to an extent such that he or she will make sacrifices for and because of it? Of course.

So why is it so hard to think that Theo can value his faith and still live a fulfilling life as a celibate homosexual man? Life isn't just about sex; it's not even half about sex.

[QUOTE="harashawn"]Get someone to ask him?Theokhoth

That's actually a decent idea. . .I could ask one of my female friends. But then if he gets snoopy something might happen.:?

have teh females ask....his suspicion will be on them not you sir.

[QUOTE="FrostyPhantasm"]

I'm really not sure what to think here.. Your gay but your against it, so your going single your whole life. I commend you for accepting your sexuality, not so much for not beleiving in who you are, but its also part of your religion which i have to accept is part of you, but i disagree with all religions. So i'll just say.

Hope it all works out?

WtFDragon

You miss the point. Theo does believe in who he is, and is being true to it. Who we are is more than who we're attracted to; it's also a function of what we believe. And of other things besides.

[QUOTE="WtFDragon"]

Why? Can not we believe that we are being tested? Besides, its not the state of being homosexual that Theo really thinks is wrong; what he thinks is wrong is the acts themselves. He can separate, in his mind, the act from the actor, and so to his mind homosexuality -- the state of being -- is not wrong, and is not in conflict with his view that any sexual act, heterosexual or homosexual, is wrong if it happens outside of marriage betwen a man and a woman.

That's hardly a destructive belief.Deity_Slapper

Not only destructive, yes, but just plain stupid. Like I said earlier, it's like saying that it's ok to be a vegetarian, but never eating meat is sinful. It's a catch 22, or more precisely, just a vicious trap. You can't keep going in circles forever. Eventually, he's going to want to break from the mundane, monotone nature of such a belief system, and find out the meaning behind his emotions...not just blindly accepting them for fear that he might upset an imaginary, unseen deity.

Here's a surprise for you: I don't believe the way you do. I pray to God that I never will. Again, homosexual acts =/= homosexual attractions. Your analogy is flawed. Just to give some constructive criticism.

If for whatever reason I decide I can't handle life as a celibate, you know what I'll do? Marry a girl.

Not only destructive, yes, but just plain stupid. Deity_Slapper

You said you're trying to help, so here's a tip: don't call something someone holds to be important stupid in the cause of helping them. Also, you have yet to establish that it is destructive for Theo, or that it is stupid.

Like I said earlier, it's like saying that it's ok to be a vegetarian, but never eating meat is sinful.Deity_Slapper

Uhm, no, because we don't need sex to survive. It's like saying what it's saying: regardless of who we're attracted to, some of us believe that sex is only morally permissible in certain contexts. And outside of those contexts, we choose not to engage in it. That's the end of the story as far as I'm concerned, and as far as Theo is concerned.

So he's made his choice. And it's a healthy one that bridges his sexuality with his faith.

It's a catch 22, or more precisely, just a vicious trap.Deity_Slapper

Only if you view sex as integral and necessary for life.

You can't keep going in circles forever. Deity_Slapper

He's not.

Eventually, he's going to want to break from the mundane, monotone nature of such a belief system, and find out the meaning behind his emotions...not just blindly accepting them for fear that he might upset an imaginary, unseen deity.Deity_Slapper

Fear? What about respect for the teachings and grace of a living, present, transcendent deity?

Just trying to.

Deity_Slapper

FAIL!

[QUOTE="WtFDragon"][QUOTE="FrostyPhantasm"]

I'm really not sure what to think here.. Your gay but your against it, so your going single your whole life. I commend you for accepting your sexuality, not so much for not beleiving in who you are, but its also part of your religion which i have to accept is part of you, but i disagree with all religions. So i'll just say.

Hope it all works out?

FrostyPhantasm

You miss the point. Theo does believe in who he is, and is being true to it. Who we are is more than who we're attracted to; it's also a function of what we believe. And of other things besides.

If you like your life 100% of the time, you're failing at it in some way. ;)

He does accept who he is. He also accepts what he believes. And he is in fact "fully indulging" in who he is, because he is a man who beieves that sexuality is reserved for certain contexts, which he fully admits he has no plans or compulstions to participate in at this time. So his full indulgence is celibacy, which (I might point out) is just one more entry in the pantheon of sexual lifestyles.

Monks do take vows of celibacy, as do some priestly orders, and if Theo is so moved as to join an order of that nature, then kudos to him. If not, there's plenty of fulfillment in living a single life, and I'm sure he'll discover it.

[QUOTE="espoac"]All I can say is a god who would tempt one of his followers in such a way yet deny him at every turn is nothing short of sadistic. If you truly believe your god is loving, it only makes sense that you should look into other more lenient Christian schools of thought on homosexuality. They may not change your mind, but you do at least owe it to yourself. Theokhoth

Deny?

Look, I am aware of the ramifications, and I am not blaming God, or even religion, AT ALL. I have no issue with that. It doesn't bother me. Why does it bother so many atheists?

And why does it bother me? Well, because I have a very strong opinion on your religion. An atheists goal in matters such as this is at least to create some sort of doubt in the believer's mind-something that will make them re-examine their choices and views. Most atheists care because to be honest the religious person that denies themselves things for god has pretty much become a stereotype, a sad one at that. Not that this necessarily describes you, but at least you can understand my motivation for engaging you in dialogue.

My last post tonight, as I need to eat dinner, and do other things.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

But you didn't say homosexual sex was wrong before marriage, you just said it was wrong...period. You keep making unbalanced comparisons, Theo. I don't think making analogies is one of your stronger points, just for the sake of constructive criticism.

Said the guy who can't seem to comprehend that homosexual attractions =/= homosexual actions.

It does, because one thing leads to another. HUMAN NATURE. Quite simple.

But still, to hold the belief that homosexual sex is ACTUALLY WRONG, while simultaneously being homosexual...is just mind-blowing.

I'm a mind-blowing person.

It's not mind-blowing in a good way.

You're not doing anything to defend your own kind on this one,

My own kind are Christians. If homosexuals have a problem with what I say, then to them I say "It's my life****" I think they'll understand.

Are homosexuals also not your own kind? You'd be telling them off?

and it seems that religious opinions have influenced your now apparent confusion,

I never said I was confused. I used to be confused, but I've long-since passed that stage.

I'll disagree here.

and bitterness.

I'm bitter to YOU. Because you just bring that out in people. It hasn't anything to do with my sexuality, or my religion or anything of that sort.

Again, YOU control how you react to any given situation. I can't bring out anything in you that you don't want to show. Playing the blame game is for children. So take your own advice, and... you know...

You need help bro,

Therapy, you mean? Talk about homophobic. . . .but it's not homosexuality you fear, is it?

Misinterperetation. Seek help for your confusion and conflicting feelings. Not your sexuality.

I said earlier that homosexuality IS NOT a sin. Are you trying to put words in my mouth for the sake of making me look bad? Pitiful, and petty. If you were mature as you claim to be, you wouldn't engage in low-brow tactics like this.

Not to be mean. Really, seek a counselor to help you , since you're not taking what I say seriously, even though I'm NOT trying to flame you.

That's the worst part. You think you're a nice guy, or a messiah, or something of the nature when the fact of the matter is, despite what you believe, YOU ARE NOT. You are belligerent and rude.

You're rude to me. Contradictions galore is all I see from you. How can I take you seriously anymore if you don't even watch what you say? Pay attention, please.

But whatever. Do what you want I guess. Be miserable if you want. I don't know why I get involved in discussions like this.

A question that boggles the very mind of God, I assure you.

So now you know god... :roll:

I try to help and you just throw it back in my face.

I'm not asking for help. You're insisting that I need help based on some assumption that I'm going to go insane later in life because of my own decisions.:lol:

I know you didn't ask. I even said, whether you're asking for it or not, that's all I was trying to do. So in that case, when someone is helping, even if you don't want it, you tell them NICELY that you don't need it. Instead of snapping at me all the time like an 8-year old who just had his favorite toys taken away.

You know that's the only reason you're resisting me...because of our past disagreements.

And your current "you need help because of your religious beliefs" crap. That's kinda contributing to it.

My current, "you need help because of the confusion you're suffering from". It's related to your religious beliefs, but I wasn't singling that out specifically.

Theokhoth

By the way Dragon, "not tonight, honey", is a hell of a lot different from "never".

Now I've got a plate of yummy pasta waiting for me. Later.

Maybe, exposing my views on religion right away was the wrong way to open this dialogue... All I'm saying is that being celibate is a big choice. When making decisions of this nature, it's only logical to explore all aspects. If you've already done so, great, I hope you have a happy life, albeit without sex. If not, however, there's only two things that could possibly happen. Either you find something better than your current philosophy or your faith in the Catholic religion is strengthened after some thorough soul searching.

And why does it bother me? Well, because I have a very strong opinion on your religion. An atheists goal in matters such as this is at least to create some sort of doubt in the believer's mind-something that will make them re-examine their choices and views. Most atheists care because to be honest the religious person that denies themselves things for god has pretty much become a stereotype, a sad one at that. Not that this necessarily describes you, but at least you can understand my motivation for engaging you in dialogue.

espoac

I'm not Catholic.

Anyway, I've been through the doubt you speak of. Believe me. You don't know the definition of "confused" until you're put in that situation. But I've gotten through it. The concept of a life without marriage, sex or children is somewhat frightening, but I can get over it and I will. I have to.

[QUOTE="espoac"]All I can say is a god who would tempt one of his followers in such a way yet deny him at every turn is nothing short of sadistic. If you truly believe your god is loving, it only makes sense that you should look into other more lenient Christian schools of thought on homosexuality. They may not change your mind, but you do at least owe it to yourself. WtFDragon

Why sadistic? And why does he owe it to himself? He believes that his own sexuality is less important that his relationship with God...so why would he attempt to invert the arrangement?

And if you want to be a happy person, I think you only owe it to yourself to make informed choices about your life.

Okay, one more...can't resist.

Maybe, exposing my views on religion right away was the wrong way to open this dialogue... All I'm saying is that being celibate is a big choice. When making decisions of this nature, it's only logical to explore all aspects. If you've already done so, great, I hope you have a happy life, albeit without sex. If not, however, there's only two things that could possibly happen. Either you find something better than your current philosophy or your faith in the Catholic religion is strengthened after some thorough soul searching.

espoac

FAIL!

Theo isn't Catholic. That would be me. :)

And why does it bother me? Well, because I have a very strong opinion on your religion.espoac

Um...that's nice?

An atheists goal in matters such as this is at least to create some sort of doubt in the believer's mind-something that will make them re-examine their choices and views.espoac

Thanks for evangelizing! But do you honestly expect that you'll plant some seeds of doubt in a web forum? Do you honestly expect to change someone's mind.

DOn't know about Theo, but I've heard almost every argument atheists have had to offer. And I've come through it a stronger, more faithful Catholic...precisely because when I see the sorts of folks that array themselves against my faith, I am continually convinced of just how real and true that faith is.

Most atheists care because to be honest the religious person that denies themselves things for god has pretty much become a stereotype, a sad one at that.espoac

Why sad? We all give things up for different reasons -- we alter our diet for the sake of our health, we alter our expenditures to save money in tight times. If we believe in a living, personal, present Lord, why wouldn't we make the odd adjustment -- even a big adjustment -- to our lifestyle because of it? And why is that sad, or unhealthy?

Not that this necessarily describes you, but at least you can understand my motivation for engaging you in dialogue.

espoac

If it doesn't describe him...why mention it?

Sadistic as in hanging a lollipop in front of a toddler on fishing line and than yanking it away every time the kid reaches for it.espoac

Is God dangling sex in front of Theo? Or are other people?

And if you want to be a happy person, I think you only owe it to yourself to make informed choices about your life.

espoac

And that would be why I'm Catholic. ;)

I love how this thread started out as a relationship advice thread and slowly transformed into a religious debate on homosexuality by a bunch of insecure, homophobic fundamentalists.

Seriously people, this is pathetic.

By the way Dragon, "not tonight, honey", is a hell of a lot different from "never".

Now I've got a plate of yummy pasta waiting for me. Later.

Deity_Slapper

Later.

As to the first bit...it's kind of the same, klnd of not. But either way, it comes down to respect. Can people live lives of fulfillment together as a celibate couple? Hell yes -- I've seen it. They respect each other, and they support each other through temptation and weakness.

You know...that "love" thing.

[QUOTE="espoac"]Maybe, exposing my views on religion right away was the wrong way to open this dialogue... All I'm saying is that being celibate is a big choice. When making decisions of this nature, it's only logical to explore all aspects. If you've already done so, great, I hope you have a happy life, albeit without sex. If not, however, there's only two things that could possibly happen. Either you find something better than your current philosophy or your faith in the Catholic religion is strengthened after some thorough soul searching.

And why does it bother me? Well, because I have a very strong opinion on your religion. An atheists goal in matters such as this is at least to create some sort of doubt in the believer's mind-something that will make them re-examine their choices and views. Most atheists care because to be honest the religious person that denies themselves things for god has pretty much become a stereotype, a sad one at that. Not that this necessarily describes you, but at least you can understand my motivation for engaging you in dialogue.

Theokhoth

I'm not Catholic.

Anyway, I've been through the doubt you speak of. Believe me. You don't know the definition of "confused" until you're put in that situation. But I've gotten through it. The concept of a life without marriage, sex or children is somewhat frightening, but I can get over it and I will. I have to.

I love how this thread started out as a relationship advice thread and slowly transformed into a religious debate on homosexuality by a bunch of insecure, homophobic fundamentalists.

Seriously people, this is pathetic.

-Jiggles-

Except that the homosexual in question is very religious himself, as am I (and I'm here to support him against socially autistic atheists who are seeing this as an opportunity to evangelize for their lack of faith and condemn him as "stupid").

In fact, the only fundies I've seen since I joined this debate are the proselytizing atheists. If some Christian fundies showed up earlier in the debate, that's pitiable...but we seem to be having a touch of a problem with that of late.

But you didn't say homosexual sex was wrong before marriage, you just said it was wrong...period. You keep making unbalanced comparisons, Theo. I don't think making analogies is one of your stronger points, just for the sake of constructive criticism.

Said the guy who can't seem to comprehend that homosexual attractions =/= homosexual actions.

It does, because one thing leads to another. HUMAN NATURE. Quite simple.

The simple fact that celibate people have existed PROVES. YOU. WRONG.

But still, to hold the belief that homosexual sex is ACTUALLY WRONG, while simultaneously being homosexual...is just mind-blowing.

I'm a mind-blowing person.

It's not mind-blowing in a good way.

Not to you, maybe.

You're not doing anything to defend your own kind on this one,

My own kind are Christians. If homosexuals have a problem with what I say, then to them I say "It's my life****" I think they'll understand.

Are homosexuals also not your own kind? You'd be telling them off?

If they don't like it, oh well. I'm not compromising my views for other homosexuals.

and it seems that religious opinions have influenced your now apparent confusion,

I never said I was confused. I used to be confused, but I've long-since passed that stage.

I'll disagree here.

And I'll disagree with you again.

and bitterness.

I'm bitter to YOU. Because you just bring that out in people. It hasn't anything to do with my sexuality, or my religion or anything of that sort.

Again, YOU control how you react to any given situation.

No I can't. Human nature!:roll:

I can't bring out anything in you that you don't want to show.

All right, then I want to show that you're pissing me off.

You need help bro,

Therapy, you mean? Talk about homophobic. . . .but it's not homosexuality you fear, is it?

Misinterperetation. Seek help for your confusion and conflicting feelings. Not your sexuality.

I'm not confused.

I said earlier that homosexuality IS NOT a sin.

So did I. Point?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth for the sake of making me look bad? Pitiful, and petty. If you were mature as you claim to be, you wouldn't engage in low-brow tactics like this.

I never said otherwise to you, O therapist of mine.

Not to be mean. Really, seek a counselor to help you , since you're not taking what I say seriously, even though I'm NOT trying to flame you.

That's the worst part. You think you're a nice guy, or a messiah, or something of the nature when the fact of the matter is, despite what you believe, YOU ARE NOT. You are belligerent and rude.

You're rude to me.

Oh well. I guess I need to work on that. Now how are you justified again?

Contradictions galore is all I see from you.

Oh well. Now how are you justified again?

How can I take you seriously anymore if you don't even watch what you say?

I stopped taking you seriously a long time ago.

Pay attention, please.

Pay attention, please.

But whatever. Do what you want I guess. Be miserable if you want. I don't know why I get involved in discussions like this.

A question that boggles the very mind of God, I assure you.

So now you know god... :roll:

Wow, you don't know jokes? :lol: You just discredited yourself by taking that seriously! :lol:

Sound familiar?

I try to help and you just throw it back in my face.

I'm not asking for help. You're insisting that I need help based on some assumption that I'm going to go insane later in life because of my own decisions.:lol:

I know you didn't ask.

Then button the fingers, please, and quit trying to help.

I even said, whether you're asking for it or not, that's all I was trying to do.

Then stop trying. Your "help" is rather pathetic.

So in that case, when someone is helping, even if you don't want it, you tell them NICELY that you don't need it.

All right: Pretty please with sugar on top stop trying to help me. You're like frikkin' Dobby.

Instead of snapping at me all the time like an 8-year old who just had his favorite toys taken away.

Tell you what: Never, ever call my beliefs stupid or crazy or destructive again, and I'll quit hurting your feelings.

You know that's the only reason you're resisting me...because of our past disagreements.

And your current "you need help because of your religious beliefs" crap. That's kinda contributing to it.

My current, "you need help because of the confusion you're suffering from".

Confusion that I have said doesn't exist.

It's related to your religious beliefs, but I wasn't singling that out specifically.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

Deity_Slapper

Okay, now time for beer. And cookie dough.

It's a "baching it" night; it's what happens when the wife is working the night shift. :P

ok the think is i know what you are going threw...but its more complex with me

ok what you do is...have one of you female friends ask him just have them go up and be like word on the street is your gay...it worked for me..kinda

I love how this thread started out as a relationship advice thread and slowly transformed into a religious debate on homosexuality by a bunch of insecure, homophobic fundamentalists.

Seriously people, this is pathetic.

-Jiggles-

Um, there isn't a single homophobic fundamentalist in here. . . . .perhaps you should read the thread before jumping to conclusions.:roll:

Okay, now time for beer. And cookie dough.

It's a "baching it" night; it's what happens when the wife is working the night shift. :P

WtFDragon

Have fun. Enjoy the beer and cookie dough.:lol:

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

But you didn't say homosexual sex was wrong before marriage, you just said it was wrong...period. You keep making unbalanced comparisons, Theo. I don't think making analogies is one of your stronger points, just for the sake of constructive criticism.

Said the guy who can't seem to comprehend that homosexual attractions =/= homosexual actions.

It does, because one thing leads to another. HUMAN NATURE. Quite simple.

The simple fact that celibate people have existed PROVES. YOU. WRONG.

But still, to hold the belief that homosexual sex is ACTUALLY WRONG, while simultaneously being homosexual...is just mind-blowing.

I'm a mind-blowing person.

It's not mind-blowing in a good way.

Not to you, maybe.

You're not doing anything to defend your own kind on this one,

My own kind are Christians. If homosexuals have a problem with what I say, then to them I say "It's my life****" I think they'll understand.

Are homosexuals also not your own kind? You'd be telling them off?

If they don't like it, oh well. I'm not compromising my views for other homosexuals.

and it seems that religious opinions have influenced your now apparent confusion,

I never said I was confused. I used to be confused, but I've long-since passed that stage.

I'll disagree here.

And I'll disagree with you again.

and bitterness.

I'm bitter to YOU. Because you just bring that out in people. It hasn't anything to do with my sexuality, or my religion or anything of that sort.

Again, YOU control how you react to any given situation.

No I can't. Human nature!:roll:

I can't bring out anything in you that you don't want to show.

All right, then I want to show that you're pissing me off.

You need help bro,

Therapy, you mean? Talk about homophobic. . . .but it's not homosexuality you fear, is it?

Misinterperetation. Seek help for your confusion and conflicting feelings. Not your sexuality.

I'm not confused.

I said earlier that homosexuality IS NOT a sin.

So did I. Point?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth for the sake of making me look bad? Pitiful, and petty. If you were mature as you claim to be, you wouldn't engage in low-brow tactics like this.

I never said otherwise to you, O therapist of mine.

Not to be mean. Really, seek a counselor to help you , since you're not taking what I say seriously, even though I'm NOT trying to flame you.

That's the worst part. You think you're a nice guy, or a messiah, or something of the nature when the fact of the matter is, despite what you believe, YOU ARE NOT. You are belligerent and rude.

You're rude to me.

Oh well. I guess I need to work on that. Now how are you justified again?

Contradictions galore is all I see from you.

Oh well. Now how are you justified again?

How can I take you seriously anymore if you don't even watch what you say?

I stopped taking you seriously a long time ago.

Pay attention, please.

Pay attention, please.

But whatever. Do what you want I guess. Be miserable if you want. I don't know why I get involved in discussions like this.

A question that boggles the very mind of God, I assure you.

So now you know god... :roll:

Wow, you don't know jokes? :lol: You just discredited yourself by taking that seriously! :lol:

Sound familiar?

I try to help and you just throw it back in my face.

I'm not asking for help. You're insisting that I need help based on some assumption that I'm going to go insane later in life because of my own decisions.:lol:

I know you didn't ask.

Then button the fingers, please, and quit trying to help.

I even said, whether you're asking for it or not, that's all I was trying to do.

Then stop trying. Your "help" is rather pathetic.

So in that case, when someone is helping, even if you don't want it, you tell them NICELY that you don't need it.

All right: Pretty please with sugar on top stop trying to help me. You're like frikkin' Dobby.

Instead of snapping at me all the time like an 8-year old who just had his favorite toys taken away.

Tell you what: Never, ever call my beliefs stupid or crazy or destructive again, and I'll quit hurting your feelings.

You know that's the only reason you're resisting me...because of our past disagreements.

And your current "you need help because of your religious beliefs" crap. That's kinda contributing to it.

My current, "you need help because of the confusion you're suffering from".

Confusion that I have said doesn't exist.

It's related to your religious beliefs, but I wasn't singling that out specifically.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

Theokhoth

Take care for tonight, Theo. Man, don't you love the arrogance of atheists who assume that they need to "help" us lowly religious folk?

MSN me if you need to talk: j12_kenman - AT - yahoo.com is my addy.

Yes, Yahoo.