Stephen Hawking says afterlife is a fairytale...

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

if there is no God then what are we? how was everything made so perfectly (animals, plants, ozone layer, gravity,our perfect distance of the sun,...)? how was life created without Him?

lowkey254

Just because you don't understand science doesn't mean goddidit.

Stalemate? There is loads and loads of evidence for science in a varity of fields, there is zero evidence for got.

[QUOTE="lowkey254"][QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Just because you don't understand science doesn't mean goddidit.

tenaka2

Stalemate? There is loads and loads of evidence for science in a varity of fields, there is zero evidence for got.

dont waste your time, there is no real evidence of a god and never will be, but religious people all they need is their imagination as proof

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]

[QUOTE="Krelian-co"]

sorry but most atheists i know are not hipocrits who need a big bad invisible guy watching over us to be decent.

Krelian-co

You're claiming atheists aren't hypocrites while childishly criticizing Christians when atheists pride on themselves as acting as adults. Right...

Many atheists are the biggest hypocrites I know. All these individuals do is spew hatred toward anyone not sharing their belief, claiming that they're the ones being hated when really, it's the other way around.

Stephen Hawking himself referred to the afterlife as a fairytale. How would you like it if someone referred to evolution as a fairytale? I would find it offensive.

Really? last time i checked most of the wars over the last two thousand years have been thanks to religions, its a plague, even now because religious people always take everything to the extreme, and did you forget who used to burn everyone because they said they didnt believe in god and you talk about people hating those who dont share their beliefs?.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] Just because you don't understand God doesn't mean it just happened. /stalemateKrelian-co

Stalemate? There is loads and loads of evidence for science in a varity of fields, there is zero evidence for got.

dont waste your time, there is no real evidence of a god and never will be, but religious people all they need is their imagination as proof

[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

if there is no God then what are we? how was everything made so perfectly (animals, plants, ozone layer, gravity,our perfect distance of the sun,...)? how was life created without Him?

tenaka2

Just because you don't understand science doesn't mean goddidit.

oh trust me my friend I understand science perfectly well, I can even disproove athiesm by using science, tell me how can science possible explain the creation of time, matter, space,planets,stars...?

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]

[QUOTE="Krelian-co"]

sorry but most atheists i know are not hipocrits who need a big bad invisible guy watching over us to be decent.

Krelian-co

You're claiming atheists aren't hypocrites while childishly criticizing Christians when atheists pride on themselves as acting as adults. Right...

Many atheists are the biggest hypocrites I know. All these individuals do is spew hatred toward anyone not sharing their belief, claiming that they're the ones being hated when really, it's the other way around.

Stephen Hawking himself referred to the afterlife as a fairytale. How would you like it if someone referred to evolution as a fairytale? I would find it offensive.

Really? last time i checked most of the wars over the last two thousand years have been thanks to religions, its a plague, even now because religious people always take everything to the extreme, and did you forget who used to burn everyone because they said they didnt believe in god and you talk about people hating those who dont share their beliefs?

And yes i dislike religions.. a lot... all i see in the history of religions is ignorance used to justify their agenda

If someone says evolution is a fairytale i wouldn't be offended, i would ask show me your FACTS which you are basing that statement, after all every theory poved wrong or right is a step forward to understanding this universe, but truly understanding, not just create imaginary beings to explain everything like the greeks did, and like the rest are doing now, is just only one now.

So far evolution has genetics on their side, people working and studying day after day all over the world, religion has.... some book someone write very long ago who didnt even knew the existance of cells in our body, and we all know people never exagerate or tell lies.

ok 1st of all, its true religion has caused wars and genocides between Cristians,mulsims...but what about athiesm, hitler was an athiest, sure he was born a Christian and he gave speeches that he was killing the jews in the name of God, wrong, hitler was an athiest, he believed in evolution, he believed humans evolved from apes, he believed that the jews hadnt evolved like the norwegians, swedish... and they didnt have aryan blood in the like the blonde hair, blue eyed swedishs/germans/norwegians had...thats why he slaugthered them, he was speeding up the evolution process(in his mind)

and this was hitlers hitlist:

2nd genetics only has prooved micro evolution, there is no evidence of macro evoltuion whatsoever...

there are 6 types of evolution only which 1 of them has been prooved to be true...

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

You're claiming atheists aren't hypocrites while childishly criticizing Christians when atheists pride on themselves as acting as adults. Right...

Many atheists are the biggest hypocrites I know. All these individuals do is spew hatred toward anyone not sharing their belief, claiming that they're the ones being hated when really, it's the other way around.

Stephen Hawking himself referred to the afterlife as a fairytale. How would you like it if someone referred to evolution as a fairytale? I would find it offensive.

Armenianwarrior

Really? last time i checked most of the wars over the last two thousand years have been thanks to religions, its a plague, even now because religious people always take everything to the extreme, and did you forget who used to burn everyone because they said they didnt believe in god and you talk about people hating those who dont share their beliefs?

And yes i dislike religions.. a lot... all i see in the history of religions is ignorance used to justify their agenda

If someone says evolution is a fairytale i wouldn't be offended, i would ask show me your FACTS which you are basing that statement, after all every theory poved wrong or right is a step forward to understanding this universe, but truly understanding, not just create imaginary beings to explain everything like the greeks did, and like the rest are doing now, is just only one now.

So far evolution has genetics on their side, people working and studying day after day all over the world, religion has.... some book someone write very long ago who didnt even knew the existance of cells in our body, and we all know people never exagerate or tell lies.

ok 1st of all, its true religion has caused wars and genocides between Cristians,mulsims....

Ok hes got an oppinion, but cant say i agree with it. To think how our world orbits perfectly, how everything in our universe has been systematically put in place, its hard to believe simply that there is no greater being. We are only too arrogant to see beyond our limited mind to percieve there is something greater. Its down to choice whether you believe it or not, but fact is it cannot be proven until one passes on.

[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Really? last time i checked most of the wars over the last two thousand years have been thanks to religions, its a plague, even now because religious people always take everything to the extreme, and did you forget who used to burn everyone because they said they didnt believe in god and you talk about people hating those who dont share their beliefs?

And yes i dislike religions.. a lot... all i see in the history of religions is ignorance used to justify their agenda

If someone says evolution is a fairytale i wouldn't be offended, i would ask show me your FACTS which you are basing that statement, after all every theory poved wrong or right is a step forward to understanding this universe, but truly understanding, not just create imaginary beings to explain everything like the greeks did, and like the rest are doing now, is just only one now.

So far evolution has genetics on their side, people working and studying day after day all over the world, religion has.... some book someone write very long ago who didnt even knew the existance of cells in our body, and we all know people never exagerate or tell lies.

m25105

ok 1st of all, its true religion has caused wars and genocides between Cristians,mulsims....

yeah, I cant think of any, I guess youre right...

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

if there is no God then what are we? how was everything made so perfectly (animals, plants, ozone layer, gravity,our perfect distance of the sun,...)? how was life created without Him?

Armenianwarrior

Just because you don't understand science doesn't mean goddidit.

oh trust me my friend I understand science perfectly well, I can even disproove athiesm by using science, tell me how can science possible explain the creation of time, matter, space,planets,stars...?

Numerous people constantly misunderstand the "big bang theory". it is not a beginning. The universe is 20 billion years old from the time of the big bang. The big bang theory states how the current state of our universe came to be. It does not state that nothing existed before it. we don't really know what the universe was like before it.

The phrase "the universe is 20 billion years old" is equivalent to "it is the year 2011", of course there was an earth before the year 1. 2011 has an arbitrary startpoint of Jesus's birth, as does the "age" of the universe, which has the start point of the big bang.

[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Just because you don't understand science doesn't mean goddidit.

STAR_Admiral

oh trust me my friend I understand science perfectly well, I can even disproove athiesm by using science, tell me how can science possible explain the creation of time, matter, space,planets,stars...?

Numerous people constantly misunderstand the "big bang theory". it is not a beginning. The universe is 20 billion years old from the time of the big bang. The big bang theory states how the current state of our universe came to be. It does not state that nothing existed before it. we don't really know what the universe was like before it.

The phrase "the universe is 20 billion years old" is equivalent to "it is the year 2011", of course there was an earth before the year 1. 2011 has an arbitrary startpoint of Jesus's birth, as does the "age" of the universe, which has the start point of the big bang.

well thats not what I've seen on the discovery channel, but everyone has his opinion about it,ok, since planets are formed from the explosion of stars, then how are stars even formed? there has not been a single observance of a star being formed, sure there are alot of theories of how stars could be formed, but no one has ever seen one form...and secondly I would like to say that the big bang is just a theory, its called the big bang THEORY, there is no scientific evidence prooving it...

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] Just because you don't understand God doesn't mean it just happened. /stalemateKrelian-co

Stalemate? There is loads and loads of evidence for science in a varity of fields, there is zero evidence for got.

dont waste your time, there is no real evidence of a god and never will be, but religious people all they need is their FAITH as proof

[QUOTE="tocool340"][QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"] wtf? so the entire universe was not actually meant to be, and we are here by accident for no reason whatsoever...*sigh* athiesm, the reason that Albert Einstien said: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Armenianwarrior

if there is no God then what are we? how was everything made so perfectly (animals, plants, ozone layer, gravity,our perfect distance of the sun,...)? how was life created without Him?

Not sure if it was posted yet, but this is what Hawkings have to say about the afterlife:

"I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first. I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark."

"What could define God [is a conception of divinity] as the embodiment of the laws of nature. However, this is not what most people would think of that God," Hawking told Sawyer. "They made a human-like being with whom one can have a personal relationship. When you look at the vast size of the universe and how insignificant an accidental human life is in it, that seems most impossible."

Source

Thoughts?

I feel almost exactly the same way when it comes to this discussion, though I wouldn't label it as "Fairy story for people afraid of the dark"...

tocool340

[[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

[QUOTE="tocool340"] Why does something need to have a purpose in order to exist?....tocool340

if there is no God then what are we? how was everything made so perfectly (animals, plants, ozone layer, gravity,our perfect distance of the sun,...)? how was life created without Him?

gladly, ok first I didnt say humans are perfect, no humans are horrible, what I meant by perfect was everything else,

plants and animals: they form the perfect food chain, if 1 goes missing the food chain will change...

ozone layer: we are protected by the suns rays, so its not too powerful, but its good enough for plants and trees to grow

gravity: our gravity is perfect, because its strong enough to keep us to the ground, but not too strong, if it was too strong we wouldnt be able to throw a ball or jump!

distance from the sun: like I mentioned in the ozone layer, we are in a perfect distance from the sun, so its not too cold or too hot, and the sun is at a perfect size so again if, it was bigger we would be dead, or if it was smaller again we would die...

[QUOTE="tocool340"][[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

if there is no God then what are we? how was everything made so perfectly (animals, plants, ozone layer, gravity,our perfect distance of the sun,...)? how was life created without Him?

Armenianwarrior

gladly, ok first I didnt say humans are perfect, no humans are horrible, what I meant by perfect was everything else,

plants and animals: they form the perfect food chain, if 1 goes missing the food chain will change...

ozone layer: we are protected by the suns rays, so its not too powerful, but its good enough for plants and trees to grow

gravity: our gravity is perfect, because its strong enough to keep us to the ground, but not too strong, if it was too strong we wouldnt be able to throw a ball or jump!

distance from the sun: like I mentioned in the ozone layer, we are in a perfect distance from the sun, so its not too cold or too hot, and the sun is at a perfect size so again if, it was bigger we would be dead, or if it was smaller again we would die...

[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

[QUOTE="tocool340"] What do you mean "What are we"? We are FAR from perfect. If we were perfect, we wouldn't make so many mistakes in our lifetime, we wouldn't be susceptible to any sickness, the would be no arguments, and we wouldn't need to rage petty wars against each other. So define "perfect". I think your definition of the word is different than the dictionary...MrGrimFandango

gladly, ok first I didnt say humans are perfect, no humans are horrible, what I meant by perfect was everything else,

plants and animals: they form the perfect food chain, if 1 goes missing the food chain will change...

ozone layer: we are protected by the suns rays, so its not too powerful, but its good enough for plants and trees to grow

gravity: our gravity is perfect, because its strong enough to keep us to the ground, but not too strong, if it was too strong we wouldnt be able to throw a ball or jump!

distance from the sun: like I mentioned in the ozone layer, we are in a perfect distance from the sun, so its not too cold or too hot, and the sun is at a perfect size so again if, it was bigger we would be dead, or if it was smaller again we would die...

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"] There's actually millions and possibly billions of other variables that allow us to even exist. Just because his list is short doesn't discount from the actuality. foxhound_fox

so youre saying if gravity was suddenly gone, from the earth we would make wings and start flying? just like that?

also 147,098,070 km < thats when we have summer...and 152,097,700 km < and thats when we have winter :D again Gods perfection of earth, a circle of life, a perfect time for animals to hibernate...

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="Mystic-G"] There's actually millions and possibly billions of other variables that allow us to even exist. Just because his list is short doesn't discount from the actuality. Armenianwarrior

so youre saying if gravity was suddenly gone, from the earth we would make wings and start flying? just like that?

also 147,098,070 km < thats when we have summer...and 152,097,700 km < and thats when we have winter :D again Gods perfection of earth, a circle of life, a perfect time for animals to hibernate...

Well I hope he his wrong.Ghost_702

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="Mystic-G"] There's actually millions and possibly billions of other variables that allow us to even exist. Just because his list is short doesn't discount from the actuality. Armenianwarrior

so youre saying if gravity was suddenly gone, from the earth we would make wings and start flying? just like that?

also 147,098,070 km < thats when we have summer...and 152,097,700 km < and thats when we have winter :D again Gods perfection of earth, a circle of life, a perfect time for animals to hibernate...

[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"] If gravity were to increase or decrease, at least not significantly, we could still easily survive and over time evolution would allow our species to adapt to the change. The ozone layer over Australia is extremely compromised, and sunscreen allows people there not to get skin cancer after a couple years exposure. Species of plants and animals go extinct all the time (99% of the species that have walked the Earth have become extinct), so the food chain is far from "perfect." That is the beauty of evolution, it allows species to adapt to change without dying out (unless they can't adapt). The distance from the Sun varies between 147,098,070 km and 152,097,700 km EVERY YEAR. Its orbit is not a perfect circle. There is a significant difference in temperature at those distances (we are the closest to the Sun during the North American winter, and it would get much colder during winter and warmer during summer if those were reversed.). Nothing he said is true. Perfection doesn't exist in the natural universe outside mathematics.YellowOneKinobi

so youre saying if gravity was suddenly gone, from the earth we would make wings and start flying? just like that?

also 147,098,070 km < thats when we have summer...and 152,097,700 km < and thats when we have winter :D again Gods perfection of earth, a circle of life, a perfect time for animals to hibernate...

This guy has already posted that Hitler proves creationism, I should think your wasting your time. Even the most hardcore YEC organistions advise not to use the arguments this guy is dragging up.

[QUOTE="MrGrimFandango"][QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

gladly, ok first I didnt say humans are perfect, no humans are horrible, what I meant by perfect was everything else,

plants and animals: they form the perfect food chain, if 1 goes missing the food chain will change...

ozone layer: we are protected by the suns rays, so its not too powerful, but its good enough for plants and trees to grow

gravity: our gravity is perfect, because its strong enough to keep us to the ground, but not too strong, if it was too strong we wouldnt be able to throw a ball or jump!

distance from the sun: like I mentioned in the ozone layer, we are in a perfect distance from the sun, so its not too cold or too hot, and the sun is at a perfect size so again if, it was bigger we would be dead, or if it was smaller again we would die...

Mystic-G

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"][QUOTE="MrGrimFandango"] PhD in Discovery Channel right here. HNNNGH

The 'Fine Tuning' argument was discredited decades ago.

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"][QUOTE="MrGrimFandango"] PhD in Discovery Channel right here. HNNNGH

[QUOTE="HNNNGH"]

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"] There's actually millions and possibly billions of other variables that allow us to even exist. Just because his list is short doesn't discount from the actuality. Mystic-G

Humans are just 1 of many species on the planet, the earth formed naturally it was not created.

[QUOTE="HNNNGH"]

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"] There's actually millions and possibly billions of other variables that allow us to even exist. Just because his list is short doesn't discount from the actuality. Mystic-G

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"][QUOTE="HNNNGH"]No, there aren't, and it's a worthless god of the gaps argument anyway.

tenaka2

Humans are just 1 of many species on the planet, the earth formed naturally it was not created.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"] So you're saying between the creation of the earth and the birth of man, there were not many variables that took place that if not for them, man would still be here. Mystic-G

Humans are just 1 of many species on the planet, the earth formed naturally it was not created.

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"][QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Humans are just 1 of many species on the planet, the earth formed naturally it was not created.

HNNNGH

I would imagine there would be a scientific study on this but I wouldn't even know how to search for it.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"] So you're saying between the creation of the earth and the birth of man, there were not many variables that took place that if not for them, man would still be here. Mystic-G

Humans are just 1 of many species on the planet, the earth formed naturally it was not created.

Life in general or life as we know it? It has already proved that life can exist without light for example. If you are referring to the chances of Apes evolving (Humans are apes), then that wouldn't have occurred unles the dinos went extinct I guess.

I think the main issue here is that you seem to suffer from an 'argument of incredulity.'

It is inconceivable that (fill in the blank) could have originated naturally. Therefore, it must have been created.

This argument, also known as the argument from ignorance or "god of the gaps," is implicit in a very many different creationist arguments. In particular, it is behind all arguments against abiogenesis and any and all claims of intelligent design.

Response:

Really, the claim is "I can't conceive that (fill in the blank)." Others might be able to find a natural explanation; in many cases, they already have. Nobody knows everything, so it is unreasonable to conclude that something is impossible just because you do not know it. Even a noted antievolutionist acknowledges this point: "The peril of negative arguments is that they may rest on our lack of knowledge, rather than on positive results" (Behe 2003).

The argument from incredulity creates a god of the gaps. Gods were responsible for lightning until we determined natural causes for lightning, for infectious diseases until we found bacteria and viruses, for mental illness until we found biochemical causes for them. God is confined only to those parts of the universe we do not know about, and that keeps shrinking.

[QUOTE="HNNNGH"][QUOTE="Mystic-G"] I'm using it as just a word here. No need for technicalities. Either way, I'll reformat my question then. Are you telling me there are not millions (if not billions) of variables since the formation of earth that if not without the contribution of, life would still exist.Mystic-G

I would imagine there would be a scientific study on this but I wouldn't even know how to search for it.

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"]

[QUOTE="HNNNGH"]Well, yes. I really can't imagine how there could be that many.HNNNGH

I would imagine there would be a scientific study on this but I wouldn't even know how to search for it.

Why would there be a scientific study on this? Science doesn't work that way.

Scientists don't start out with.

'We know this old book to be the absolute truth so.. lets go out and prove it to be correct.'

[QUOTE="HNNNGH"][QUOTE="Mystic-G"]

I would imagine there would be a scientific study on this but I wouldn't even know how to search for it.

tenaka2

Why would there be a scientific study on this? Science doesn't work that way.

Scientists don't start out with.

'We know this old book to be the absolute truth so.. lets go out and prove it to be correct.'

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

I never said the paper would be explicitly religious; one doesn't need to endorse creationism in order to study the likelihood of abiogenesis.HNNNGH

Well its obviously occurred once, hopefully it's occurred on many other planets also.

[QUOTE="HNNNGH"][QUOTE="tenaka2"]

I never said the paper would be explicitly religious; one doesn't need to endorse creationism in order to study the likelihood of abiogenesis.tenaka2

Well its obviously occurred once, hopefully it's occurred on many other planets also.

[QUOTE="tocool340"][[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

if there is no God then what are we? how was everything made so perfectly (animals, plants, ozone layer, gravity,our perfect distance of the sun,...)? how was life created without Him?

Armenianwarrior

gladly, ok first I didnt say humans are perfect, no humans are horrible, what I meant by perfect was everything else,

plants and animals: they form the perfect food chain, if 1 goes missing the food chain will change...

ozone layer: we are protected by the suns rays, so its not too powerful, but its good enough for plants and trees to grow

gravity: our gravity is perfect, because its strong enough to keep us to the ground, but not too strong, if it was too strong we wouldnt be able to throw a ball or jump!

distance from the sun: like I mentioned in the ozone layer, we are in a perfect distance from the sun, so its not too cold or too hot, and the sun is at a perfect size so again if, it was bigger we would be dead, or if it was smaller again we would die...

Again, what is your definition of perfect because nothing is near perfect the way everything fluctuates in this world...

Ya because he would know, right? :roll:

Sounds like logical thought to me. Gods, angels and demons are for fairy tales. MrGrimFandango

I agree..BUT we has humans have to believe in something other than rotting in the ground I guess...Makes us feel better. As for me, I believe "if anything" in spirits.."ghosts"...and if thats not right...then just death,rot,go bye bye..:)

[QUOTE="Armenianwarrior"]

[QUOTE="tocool340"] What do you mean "What are we"? We are FAR from perfect. If we were perfect, we wouldn't make so many mistakes in our lifetime, we wouldn't be susceptible to any sickness, the would be no arguments, and we wouldn't need to rage petty wars against each other. So define "perfect". I think your definition of the word is different than the dictionary...tocool340

gladly, ok first I didnt say humans are perfect, no humans are horrible, what I meant by perfect was everything else,

plants and animals: they form the perfect food chain, if 1 goes missing the food chain will change...

ozone layer: we are protected by the suns rays, so its not too powerful, but its good enough for plants and trees to grow

gravity: our gravity is perfect, because its strong enough to keep us to the ground, but not too strong, if it was too strong we wouldnt be able to throw a ball or jump!

distance from the sun: like I mentioned in the ozone layer, we are in a perfect distance from the sun, so its not too cold or too hot, and the sun is at a perfect size so again if, it was bigger we would be dead, or if it was smaller again we would die...

Again, what is your definition of perfect because nothing is near perfect the way everything fluctuates in this world...

screw up the main creation? do you mean us?

animals and plants are on the verge of extinction because of us, and whos fault is it that the ozone layer is less protective in some places?our fault! and yes I do know we dont orbit around the sun in a circle, because if we did we wouldnt have 4 seasons, it would consatantly be summer, or winter...

and yes the universe is a huge place and it could containmillions of planets and stars, but that doesnt explain how it is possible for non-living things can make a living thing...

and yes the universe is a huge place and it could containmillions of planets and stars, but that doesnt explain how it is possible for non-living things can make a living thing...Armenianwarrior

[QUOTE="Krelian-co"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Stalemate? There is loads and loads of evidence for science in a varity of fields, there is zero evidence for got.

lowkey254

dont waste your time, there is no real evidence of a god and never will be, but religious people all they need is their imagination as proof

this is so sad to see someone actually believe that and lie to themselves like that.

Science is not perfect, but at least the evidence it gets its thousand times better than none at all, better than a book someone wrote long ago when they didnt even knew the earth was not the middle of the universe. And we all know people never lie or exaggerate right? I bet when greek wrote their mythology books they were also sure the saw someone riding a golden cart to the sun and so on....

Sciende needs proof because is based on truth and facts, that we can actually see, faith doesnt because it doesnt have anything to back it up, anything at all.