Technically there must be a creator.

[QUOTE="mingo123"][QUOTE="bsman00"]

[QUOTE="mingo123"]God created everything, he wasnt created, he always existedmarkop2003

See we are saying the same things your calling it god , we are calling it the big bang.... your thinking god is some sort of human like being.... god is in everything you me, plants, animals... i hope that makes sense

i dont think God is human like being, God IS everything

if god is everything then he is humans too, so we therefore have no free will, is that what your saying

no God created humans and gave them free will

[QUOTE="Napster06"][QUOTE="bsman00"]

[QUOTE="mingo123"]God created everything, he wasnt created, he always existedmattyftm

See we are saying the same things your calling it god , we are calling it the big bang.... your thinking god is some sort of human like being.... god is in everything you me, plants, animals... i hope that makes sense

I believe in both the Big Bang and the existence of God. Where does that put me?

I think that makes you steven hawking.

Put you in the same place as me ... dont you get what im saying "See we are saying the same things your calling it god , we are calling it the big bang"

[QUOTE="mingo123"][QUOTE="bsman00"]

[QUOTE="mingo123"]God created everything, he wasnt created, he always existedmarkop2003

See we are saying the same things your calling it god , we are calling it the big bang.... your thinking god is some sort of human like being.... god is in everything you me, plants, animals... i hope that makes sense

i dont think God is human like being, God IS everything

if god is everything then he is humans too, so we therefore have no free will, is that what your saying

No thats not what im saying... you pulled that free will thing out your butt didnt you j/k.. GOD IS EVERYTHING!!!!!! ME, YOU, ANIMAL, PLANTS.... I REALLY DONT WANT TO list every thing in existence

I'd like to introduce you all to a man named Thomas Aquinas. Aquinas live in the 1200's, he was a philosopher and a catholic priest. Thomas had a few concepts very relevant to this concept.

Thomas's first observation is that things are moving. We can see this all around us. But he says, things couldn't have always been moving. Could you trace things back to the first movement? He says that if nothing had ever moved, nothing could ever move, but at the same time things could have been moving forever. There must be an unmoved mover. Something that needed no initial push. This unmoved mover? God!

Aquinas notices that we exist, and we have a cause, our parents. Our parents have a cause, their parents, and so on. Now, Aquinas says, once again, this couldn't go on forever. The argument is very similar to the one above. There must have been an uncaused cause. That cause? God!

Now, there is more to it then that, but that is all I'm going to post.

These topics beat up my brain.

Matter can't be created.

Something that exists has to be created, it's just impossible for something to have always been there.

These topics beat up my brain.

Matter can't be created.

Something that exists has to be created, it's just impossible for something to have always been there.

Brainkiller05

as far as we know, matter can't be created.

I'd like to introduce you all to a man named Thomas Aquinas. Aquinas live in the 1200's, he was a philosopher and a catholic priest. Thomas had a few concepts very relevant to this concept.

Thomas's first observation is that things are moving. We can see this all around us. But he says, things couldn't have always been moving. Could you trace things back to the first movement? He says that if nothing had ever moved, nothing could ever move, but at the same time things could have been moving forever. There must be an unmoved mover. Something that needed no initial push. This unmoved mover? God!

Aquinas notices that we exist, and we have a cause, our parents. Our parents have a cause, their parents, and so on. Now, Aquinas says, once again, this couldn't go on forever. The argument is very similar to the one above. There must have been an uncaused cause. That cause? God!

BoG_

Damn, that reminds me i have an RMS exam on wednesday.

Anyway, that argument is not really very conclusive, in both cases it could have been any number of other things that moved or caused or whatever. For example an explosion caused by random chance or according to that logic it could just have easily been a giant circus elephant being ridden by an ostritch, both wearing top hats, flying on a giant cake that just materialised and caused everything.

[QUOTE="mingo123"][QUOTE="bsman00"][QUOTE="mingo123"]

bsman00

i dont think God is human like being, God IS everything

if god is everything then he is humans too, so we therefore have no free will, is that what your saying

No thats not what im saying... you pulled that free will thing out your butt didnt you j/k.. GOD IS EVERYTHING!!!!!! ME, YOU, ANIMAL, PLANTS.... I REALLY DONT WANT TO list every thing in existence

Exactly he is us so we can't have free will over what we are then

These topics beat up my brain.

Matter can't be created.

Something that exists has to be created, it's just impossible for something to have always been there.

Brainkiller05

These topics beat up my brain.

Matter can't be created.

Something that exists has to be created, it's just impossible for something to have always been there.

Brainkiller05

They only way it could be is that it ALWAYS EXISTED... why??... think about.... a Creator, creates something... so that Creator has a Creator.... and that Creator has a Creator... see where im going with this....

[QUOTE="Brainkiller05"]

These topics beat up my brain.

Matter can't be created.

Something that exists has to be created, it's just impossible for something to have always been there.

Hewkii

as far as we know, matter can't be created.

i thought it could by using energy, e=mc^2

It's energy that can't be created

[QUOTE="bsman00"][QUOTE="mingo123"][QUOTE="bsman00"][QUOTE="mingo123"]

markop2003

i dont think God is human like being, God IS everything

if god is everything then he is humans too, so we therefore have no free will, is that what your saying

No thats not what im saying... you pulled that free will thing out your butt didnt you j/k.. GOD IS EVERYTHING!!!!!! ME, YOU, ANIMAL, PLANTS.... I REALLY DONT WANT TO list every thing in existence

Exactly he is us so we can't have free will over what we are then

Your thinking god is controlling us like a remote controlled car or something....God does not know whats going to happen next (because technically hes not a thing he is everything)... just like you dont know whats going to happen next... so we have free will to choose what we should do in any given situation

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="Brainkiller05"]

These topics beat up my brain.

Matter can't be created.

Something that exists has to be created, it's just impossible for something to have always been there.

markop2003

as far as we know, matter can't be created.

i thought it could by using energy, e=mc^2

It's energy that can't be created

E=MC^2 is not to do with the creation of matter. Its to do with the relationship between matter and energy.

Neither matter or energy can be created or destroyed.

[QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="bsman00"][QUOTE="mingo123"][QUOTE="bsman00"][QUOTE="mingo123"]

bsman00

i dont think God is human like being, God IS everything

if god is everything then he is humans too, so we therefore have no free will, is that what your saying

No thats not what im saying... you pulled that free will thing out your butt didnt you j/k.. GOD IS EVERYTHING!!!!!! ME, YOU, ANIMAL, PLANTS.... I REALLY DONT WANT TO list every thing in existence

Exactly he is us so we can't have free will over what we are then

Your thinking god is controlling us like a remote controlled car or something....God does not know whats going to happen next (because technically hes not a thing he is everything)... just like you dont know whats going to happen next... so we have free will to choose what we should do in any given situation

yes he does....lulz

Your thinking god is controlling us like a remote controlled car or something....God does not know whats going to happen next (because technically hes not a thing he is everything)... just like you dont know whats going to happen next... so we have free will to choose what we should do in any given situation

bsman00

Yes, God does not control us like a RC, but he does know what's going to happen next both for the better and worse. But it is up to us to change it.

[QUOTE="mingo123"][QUOTE="bsman00"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="bsman00"][QUOTE="mingo123"][QUOTE="bsman00"][QUOTE="mingo123"]

bsman00

i dont think God is human like being, God IS everything

if god is everything then he is humans too, so we therefore have no free will, is that what your saying

No thats not what im saying... you pulled that free will thing out your butt didnt you j/k.. GOD IS EVERYTHING!!!!!! ME, YOU, ANIMAL, PLANTS.... I REALLY DONT WANT TO list every thing in existence

Exactly he is us so we can't have free will over what we are then

Your thinking god is controlling us like a remote controlled car or something....God does not know whats going to happen next (because technically hes not a thing he is everything)... just like you dont know whats going to happen next... so we have free will to choose what we should do in any given situation

yes he does....lulz

No, his mind isn't able to comprehend your idea of god, a word that in these times can have any meaning attached to it.

i gave you a reason why i think god does not know whats going to happen next.... and you come back with YES HE DOES....what are you 5??

[QUOTE="bsman00"]

Your thinking god is controlling us like a remote controlled car or something....God does not know whats going to happen next (because technically hes not a thing he is everything)... just like you dont know whats going to happen next... so we have free will to choose what we should do in any given situation

Napster06

Yes, God does not control us like a RC, but he does knowwhat's going to happen next both for the better and worse. But it is up to us to change it.

OK let say a big guy in the sky created us and if he already knows whats going to happen to us..... then he created us to do that so that mean NO FREE WILL.... AND THATS NOT TRUE

A Christian and an athiest walk into a bar.

"This is a nice bar, thank god for making us"

"You mean the big bang"

"No, that is silly, how can all this come from nothing?"

"Out of the 84235738457 planets in space, ours happened to get lucky, and matter just always was"

"Nothing can always be....except god, he always was"

"Well that doesnt make sense, what created god?"

"What created the matter that started the universe?"

And so on so forth.

when you think about how long humans have been here to how long the planet and the universe has been here... its crazy Akm4everz

I like this thread.

Yes, God does not control us like a RC, but he does know what's going to happen next both for the better and worse. But it is up to us to change it.

Napster06

but you can't change it if he already knows it's going to happen.

This has been touched on, but I'll say it anyway (it's from the book Star Wars and Philosophy): If God knows what's going to happen next, does that mean that he controls it, and you are forced to do what God forsees? If so, where does free will fit in?

[QUOTE="Napster06"]

Yes, God does not control us like a RC, but he does knowwhat's going to happen next both for the better and worse. But it is up to us to change it.

bsman00

OK let say a big guy in the sky created us and if he already knows whats going to happen to us..... then he created us to do that so that mean NO FREE WILL.... AND THATS NOT TRUE

When did I say no free will? I did say we can change it.

And this totally groundbreaking conclusion deserved a 400-post topic. . . . .why?

And this totally groundbreaking conclusion deserved a 400-post topic. . . . .why?

Dracargen

You're in the right thread?

I dont consider myself religious, but if you think about it there must be a creator. If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It must have been created at some point. SeanDog123

it's him :o

[QUOTE="SeanDog123"]I dont consider myself religious, but if you think about it there must be a creator. If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It must have been created at some point. fanofazrienoch

[QUOTE="SeanDog123"]I dont consider myself religious, but if you think about it there must be a creator. If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It must have been created at some point. Mr_Sesshomaru

[QUOTE="bsman00"][QUOTE="Napster06"]

Yes, God does not control us like a RC,but he does knowwhat's going to happen next both for the better and worse. But it is up to us to change it.

Napster06

that sentence right there says we have no free will... if you think god created us and he know whats going to happen to us that means we have no free will... he created us to do the things we do... SO GOD ALREADY WOULD KNOW THe WAY ... WE CHANGED IT....

OK let say a big guy in the sky created us and if he already knows whats going to happen to us..... then he created us to do that so that mean NO FREE WILL.... AND THATS NOT TRUE

When did I say no free will? I did say we can change it.

[QUOTE="Mr_Sesshomaru"][QUOTE="SeanDog123"]I dont consider myself religious, but if you think about it there must be a creator. If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It must have been created at some point. Tokyo512

i know.... thats why i edit my message and said something different you were just to quick to point out my mistake

[QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="SeanDog123"]I dont consider myself religious, but if you think about it there must be a creator. If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It must have been created at some point. Blitz_Nemesis

I dont know what it is exactly in english, but nothing is created and nothing is destroyed, everything is **transformed**(?)

so why when creationist say God always existed in oppose to questions like "if God created us who created God?" we are seen as being foolish but then you guys can say matter always existed?Blitz_Nemesis

same reason you say there has to be a creator, actually.

[QUOTE="Napster06"][QUOTE="bsman00"][QUOTE="Napster06"]

Yes, God does not control us like a RC,but he does knowwhat's going to happen next both for the better and worse. But it is up to us to change it.

bsman00

OK let say a big guy in the sky created us and if he already knows whats going to happen to us..... then he created us to do that so that mean NO FREE WILL.... AND THATS NOT TRUE

When did I say no free will? I did say we can change it.

that sentence right there says we have no free will... if you think god created us and he know whats going to happen to us that means we have no free will... he created us to do the things we do... SO GOD ALREADY WOULD KNOW THe WAY ... WE CHANGED IT....

[QUOTE="SeanDog123"]I dont consider myself religious, but if you think about it there must be a creator. If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It must have been created at some point. Mr_Sesshomaru

that sentence right there says we have no free will... if you think god created us and he know whats going to happen to us that means we have no free will... he created us to do the things we do... SO GOD ALREADY WOULD KNOW THe WAY ... WE CHANGED IT....

bsman00

We have a free will. Not necessarily what was planned out is implemented. Let's say He determined we're gonna pass an exam, but we didn't study. And for sure we're going to fail it.

[QUOTE="Mr_Sesshomaru"][QUOTE="SeanDog123"]I dont consider myself religious, but if you think about it there must be a creator. If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It must have been created at some point. PannicAtack

[QUOTE="bsman00"]

that sentence right there says we have no free will... if you think god created us and he know whats going to happen to us that means we have no free will... he created us to do the things we do... SO GOD ALREADY WOULD KNOW THe WAY ... WE CHANGED IT....

Napster06

We have a free will. Not necessarily what was planned out is implemented. Let's say He determined we're gonna pass an exam, but we didn't study. And for sure we're going to fail it.

God is the one who fails, for real, if he exists, he did an HORRIBLE job. and you guys "free will" is the most laughable joke and excuse ever, stop believing BS inevnted by other HUMANS like YOU

Definitions of free will on the Web:

• the partial freedom of the agent, in acts of conscious choice, from the determining compulsion of heredity, environment and circumstance.
  http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&ei=gNIlSKX-JYim8gT56bi3Cw&sig2=4mVXDybgp_IIIvgyi3SNHg&q=http://www.willdurant.com/glossary.htm&usg=AFQjCNEoMQxNS9Cq80APsrE-BWPhgULwJQ

• Freedom of self determination and action independent of external causes.
  http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=1&oi=define&ei=gNIlSKX-JYim8gT56bi3Cw&sig2=eInOr1NgxqLHH6ZeMZuR3A&q=http://www.carm.org/atheism/terms.htm&usg=AFQjCNFn15jPvYgc6E78FkCbYZ7AWPE5_w

• The power of self-determination regarded as a special faculty
  http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=2&oi=define&ei=gNIlSKX-JYim8gT56bi3Cw&sig2=OZgBlAdGrFDOEHu2cELQ-Q&q=http://www.innvista.com/culture/religion/diction.htm&usg=AFQjCNGTzLFzYifeDBSbjMuEAmzXkRgYYA

• in contrast with determinism, the doctrine of free will asserts that man is able to make choices according to his own will. ...
  http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=3&oi=define&ei=gNIlSKX-JYim8gT56bi3Cw&sig2=Oylhvxb3go1-Da10IL77aw&q=http://www.apologetics.org/glossary.html&usg=AFQjCNGfe4vUNAsNwqu3BiH6yr_PnQ9sDQ

• As a dream symbol, free will is a very complicated and quite rare occurrence. To make consciousness acknowledgment, within a dream, that one is exercising Free Will, is more likely to trigger a lucid experience, than convey any message. ...
  http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=4&oi=define&ei=gNIlSKX-JYim8gT56bi3Cw&sig2=KmXreTCWA_tmiSEFMgjlHg&q=http://www.katiestanley.com/resources/dd/f.htm&usg=AFQjCNHhYczBcm7e9tolzbbXrBzF5npMfA

• the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies
  wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

• The problem of free will concerns whether rational agents imagine or really do exercise control over their own actions and decisions. ...
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free will

Knowing what will happen next is not influencing what will happen. If God knew what would happen when He created us then God knew what would happen; He didn't make us do it by creating us nor did He violate any of the definitions of free will above.

God is the one who fails, for real, if he exists, he did an HORRIBLE job. and you guys "free will" is the most laughable joke and excuse ever, stop believing BS inevnted by other HUMANS like YOU

DrCoCoPiMp

Oops. You didn't do your homework.

[QUOTE="bsman00"]

that sentence right there says we have no free will... if you think god created us and he know whats going to happen to us that means we have no free will... he created us to do the things we do... SO GOD ALREADY WOULD KNOW THe WAY ... WE CHANGED IT....

Napster06

We have a free will. Not necessarily what was planned out is implemented. Let's say He determined we're gonna pass an exam, but we didn't study. And for sure we're going to fail it.

WELL i guess i need to ask you this first... Do you think god knows what has happened before, now, and in the future??

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="Mr_Sesshomaru"][QUOTE="SeanDog123"]I dont consider myself religious, but if you think about it there must be a creator. If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It must have been created at some point. blackngold29

Then he says that it must have been created.

Seems like a contradiction to me. >_>

[QUOTE="SeanDog123"]I dont consider myself religious, but if you think about it there must be a creator. If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It must have been created at some point. Mr_Sesshomaru

no he didnt,

hes saying if matter cant be created from its self, it had to be created from somewhere.

seriously, duh.

[QUOTE="Blitz_Nemesis"]so why when creationist say God always existed in oppose to questions like "if God created us who created God?" we are seen as being foolish but then you guys can say matter always existed?Hewkii

same reason you say there has to be a creator, actually.

[QUOTE="Mr_Sesshomaru"][QUOTE="SeanDog123"]I dont consider myself religious, but if you think about it there must be a creator. If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It must have been created at some point. H8sMikeMoore

no he didnt,

hes saying if matter cant be created from its self, it had to be created from somewhere.

seriously, duh.

[QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="SeanDog123"]I dont consider myself religious, but if you think about it there must be a creator. If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It must have been created at some point. SeanDog123

But that argument doesn't make sense, because how can something always exist?

Time PARADOX! , that's the problem with it....

[QUOTE="Napster06"]Yes, there is a creator and glad you see it :Dguyguyguy1234

There is a creator. I am religious and belive god made everything. Actually scientists are looking into intelligent design