The Muslim world blames the West for their own failures?

Here is a an excerpt from a very long article on multiple subjects:

"We will remember what too many Muslims forget, writes Hanson. The Muslim world suffers from political amnesia, we now have learned, and so has forgotten not only Arafats resurrection but also American help to beleaguered Afghanis, terrified Kuwaitis, helpless Kurds and Shiites, starving Somalis, and defenseless Bosniansdirect intervention that has cost the United States much more treasure and lives than mere economic aid for Israel ever did. They forget; but we remember the Palestinians cheering in Nablus hours after thousands of our innocents were incinerated in New York and the hagiographic posters of a mass murderer in the streets of Muslim capitals.
Even in the crucible of war, Hanson writes, we have discovered that our worst critics love us in the concrete as much as they hate us in the abstract. The concrete evidence of their love, if that is what it is, is that they want to come here and to send their children here. Hanson asks, Why do so many of these anti-Americans, who profess hatred of the West and reverence for the purity of an energized Islam or a fiery Palestine, enroll in Chico State or UCLA instead of madrassas in Pakistan or military academies in Iraq? The embarrassing answer would explain nearly everything, from bin Laden to the intifada. Dads and moms who watch Al-Jazeera and scream in the street at the Great Satan really would prefer that their children have dollars, an annual CAT scan, a good lawyer, air conditioning, and Levis in American hell than be without toilet paper, suffer from intestinal parasites, deal with the secret police, and squint with uncorrected vision in the Islamic paradise of Cairo, Teheran, and Gaza. Such a fundamental and intolerable paradox in the very core of a mans heartmultiplied millions of times overis not a healthy thing either for them or for us.

Hanson ends on the note of friendly counsel: So a neighborly bit of advice for our Islamic friends and their spokesmen abroad: topple your pillars of ignorance and the edifice of your anti-Americanism. Try to seek difficult answers from within to even more difficult questions without. Do not blame others for problems that are largely self-created or seek solutions over here when your answers are mostly at home. Please, think hard about what you are saying and writing about the deaths of thousands of Americans and your relationship with the United States. America has been a friend more often than not to you. But now you are on the verge of turning its peoplewho create, not follow, governmentinto an enemy: a very angry and powerful enemy that may be yours for a long, long time to come.

Do you guys think this is true, does the Muslim civilization actually envy the West and would most Middle-Easterners secretly prefer to be more like the West, or even live there?

Chrisitans blame Satan for all their failures, so what's the difference?

No one want to accept personal responsibility, that's why they cooked up religion in the first place. "The Devil made me do it!"

I think it would be kind of arrogant of me to speak for such a huge swath of people, many of whom no doubt hold varying opinions.Abbeten

lol

Here is a an excerpt from a very long article on multiple subjects:

"We will remember what too many Muslims forget, writes Hanson. The Muslim world suffers from political amnesia, we now have learned, and so has forgotten not only Arafats resurrection but also American help to beleaguered Afghanis, terrified Kuwaitis, helpless Kurds and Shiites, starving Somalis, and defenseless Bosniansdirect intervention that has cost the United States much more treasure and lives than mere economic aid for Israel ever did. They forget; but we remember the Palestinians cheering in Nablus hours after thousands of our innocents were incinerated in New York and the hagiographic posters of a mass murderer in the streets of Muslim capitals.
Even in the crucible of war, Hanson writes, we have discovered that our worst critics love us in the concrete as much as they hate us in the abstract. The concrete evidence of their love, if that is what it is, is that they want to come here and to send their children here. Hanson asks, Why do so many of these anti-Americans, who profess hatred of the West and reverence for the purity of an energized Islam or a fiery Palestine, enroll in Chico State or UCLA instead of madrassas in Pakistan or military academies in Iraq? The embarrassing answer would explain nearly everything, from bin Laden to the intifada. Dads and moms who watch Al-Jazeera and scream in the street at the Great Satan really would prefer that their children have dollars, an annual CAT scan, a good lawyer, air conditioning, and Levis in American hell than be without toilet paper, suffer from intestinal parasites, deal with the secret police, and squint with uncorrected vision in the Islamic paradise of Cairo, Teheran, and Gaza. Such a fundamental and intolerable paradox in the very core of a mans heartmultiplied millions of times overis not a healthy thing either for them or for us.

Hanson ends on the note of friendly counsel: So a neighborly bit of advice for our Islamic friends and their spokesmen abroad: topple your pillars of ignorance and the edifice of your anti-Americanism. Try to seek difficult answers from within to even more difficult questions without. Do not blame others for problems that are largely self-created or seek solutions over here when your answers are mostly at home. Please, think hard about what you are saying and writing about the deaths of thousands of Americans and your relationship with the United States. America has been a friend more often than not to you. But now you are on the verge of turning its peoplewho create, not follow, governmentinto an enemy: a very angry and powerful enemy that may be yours for a long, long time to come.

Do you guys think this is true, does the Muslim civilization actually envy the West and would most Middle-Easterners secretly prefer to be more like the West, or even live there?

whipassmt

The argument that the author (and a flawed one) tried to made is that muslims shouldnt be mad at America since we have money that they would desire to have.That doesnt make any sense. And lol at him calling it an "intolerable paradox in the very core of a mans heartmultiplied millions of times", its not a "paradox" that people disagree with someone who is richer than them lol.

Colonialism mostly, dissolution of caliphate, destruction of infrastructure, throning of dictators and subsiding Arabic language.

and well, among other things...

Muslims need someone else to blame because if they couldn't they'd have to stop and examine themselves. This is why Iran constantly tries to provoke people. They can focus the attention away from their gov't. Notice how anytime things settle down the people start freaking out against the gov't however so long as they keep trying to provoke other countries the people are silent.

Thankfully Israel is where it is arabs have had someone to blame for quite awhile while they sit around collecting welfare cheques and benefits from the western nations they have dual citizenship in letting flies crawl all over them complaining.

OT lately.

I bet the whole non-Western world blames the West for the problems.

LOLOLOLOLSarcasm

Anyway,

I bet the whole non-Western world blames the West for the problems.

LOLOLOLOLSarcasm

Anyway,

gamerguru100

I am not really replying to the topic, as I didn't read much of it, and my opinion would prolly just get others all riled up.

But I am wondering what game is that in your sig. Is that the newer Deus Ex?

[QUOTE="gamerguru100"]

I bet the whole non-Western world blames the West for the problems.

LOLOLOLOLSarcasm

Anyway,

Lach0121

I am not really replying to the topic, as I didn't read much of it, and my opinion would prolly just get others all riled up.

But I am wondering what game is that in your sig. Is that the newer Deus Ex?

^ I agree what game?

It's always the west's fault.

[QUOTE="Lach0121"]

[QUOTE="gamerguru100"]

I bet the whole non-Western world blames the West for the problems.

LOLOLOLOLSarcasm

Anyway,

gamerguru100

I am not really replying to the topic, as I didn't read much of it, and my opinion would prolly just get others all riled up.

But I am wondering what game is that in your sig. Is that the newer Deus Ex?

Ah ok thats what I was thinking, I am wanting to try it out, but I am waiting to play the original first, but I am waiting to play the original until it gets the HD texture mods (or whatever it is they are still working on) finished first.

Which is fine, cause I have so much other games, and other things to occupy my time. I just mainly wanted to make sure there wasn't a game that just slipped by me again.

It's true the West does meddle in Muslim world affairs, and still does.

what is also true is that there are a lot of alleged conspiracies by Arabs, Iranians, and Pakistani's that the US/Israel/West has done some wrong to them. A favorite is blaming Israel for a lot of crap that they have nothing to do with, or allegedly making conspiracy out of it.

There is this real big conspiracy that it's the outside world that is holding down the Arab/Muslim world from greatness. it's not.

We have dictators, so called 'Presidents' that stick around for decades, and monarchs that use religion as the carrot and stick. People b*tch and moan about it, uprise for freedom of the people, only to turn around and endorse theocracy and THINK that will solve the ills of the region...

I know people will die... I know people will suffer... I know people languish under a different kind of tyranny.... But i figure....

If they are so insistent on it, let them have their bitter fruit, let them learn.

but i figure, and i'm being cynical right now, that people will do one or both of two things.

1. blame our failures on outsiders (USA, Israel, West, other competing Islamic countries)
2. Say that the current government is corrupt and does not represent the 'true' Islam and that it needs to be replaced by another Islamist group.

but maybe i'm being too harsh, maybe people are smarter then that. But i can't help but be a bit bitter and look at it as social evolution. Not unlike when people flocked and fought tooth and nail for Communism.

different political systems, same arguement if you know and understand history.

One of the reasons why the ME is the way it is is because of the U.S.'s involvement there a few decades ago. Not the only factor, but it's a factor nevertheless and to deny that would be dumb. l4dak47

and hell, I'd say the Muslim world puts more blame on Israel than the America or any other Western countries

[QUOTE="l4dak47"]One of the reasons why the ME is the way it is is because of the U.S.'s involvement there a few decades ago. Not the only factor, but it's a factor nevertheless and to deny that would be dumb. kingkong0124

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

[QUOTE="l4dak47"]One of the reasons why the ME is the way it is is because of the U.S.'s involvement there a few decades ago. Not the only factor, but it's a factor nevertheless and to deny that would be dumb. l4dak47

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--op2bDLp_Q&feature=fvwrel

the destruction of the Khalifa by the obsessed west was one of the huge reasons.

[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"]
Yes, typical left wing rhetoric. Oh America and its imperialism :roll:

kingkong0124

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

yes and no, there was certainly alot of meddling by the western world (early on, Europe, later on , the US and the Soviet Union), but at the same time, the amount of conspiracy theories in the Muslim world, where every problem is the fault of the west, or Israel , or the Jews , or whatever, are crazy.

it diverts attention from the problems which are not the fault of others (and those problems are numerous).

colonialism happened in alot of places, but not every place affected by colonialism turned out bad , so its not just that.

Chrisitans blame Satan for all their failures, so what's the difference?

No one want to accept personal responsibility, that's why they cooked up religion in the first place. "The Devil made me do it!"

br0kenrabbit

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

[QUOTE="l4dak47"] Have you read up on history? l4dak47

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"]
Yes, typical left wing rhetoric. Oh America and its imperialism :roll:

kingkong0124

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

I don't know why the West doesn't just step into the ME and install puppet governments. Surely governments controlled by the West would be better for us.Crunchy_Nuts

[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

SaudiFury

[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

SaudiFury

[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

SaudiFury

there is something I do not understand, the US is supporting Iraq financially, the same Iraq who are allies of Iran , an enemy of of the US (in most ways anyways) although Im not sure why you would say Egypt is being kept afloat by the US, they don't get that much.

i would be more than happy to withdraw all the troops from everywhere in the world if that would not be followed by a huge round of ethnic cleansing.

i mean come on lets face it, everyone hates each other and i'm not really seeing an upside to letting half the planet turn into yugoslavia in the 90's.

this is a case of dammed if you do dammned if you don't.

intervene and you look like stromtroopers don't intervene and you have lebannon or any one of the other of dozens of cases in the last couple decades of some mintorites getting wiped the fuk out because we don't get involved.

maybe we should just let everyone kill each other off and never say or do anything about it.

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"][QUOTE="l4dak47"] I don't know who Howard Zinn is. Furthermore, my view isn't skewed. The U.S. are one of the main reasons why the ME is the way it is. They funded and gave weapons to groups In Afghanistan who eventually became the Taliban, they overthrew the leader of Iran and installed a brutal dictator, they continue to fund nations like Saudi Arabia who are one of the worst when it comes to human rights, they funded Hussein and overthrew him when he became useless leading to a destabilized Iraq, and they continue to interfere in Afghanistan.Darkman2007

there is something I do not understand, the US is supporting Iraq financially, the same Iraq who are allies of Iran , an enemy of of the US (in most ways anyways) although Im not sure why you would say Egypt is being kept afloat by the US, they don't get that much.

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

[QUOTE="l4dak47"] Have you read up on history? l4dak47

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

It's true the West does meddle in Muslim world affairs, and still does.

what is also true is that there are a lot of alleged conspiracies by Arabs, Iranians, and Pakistani's that the US/Israel/West has done some wrong to them. A favorite is blaming Israel for a lot of crap that they have nothing to do with, or allegedly making conspiracy out of it.

There is this real big conspiracy that it's the outside world that is holding down the Arab/Muslim world from greatness. it's not.

We have dictators, so called 'Presidents' that stick around for decades, and monarchs that use religion as the carrot and stick. People b*tch and moan about it, uprise for freedom of the people, only to turn around and endorse theocracy and THINK that will solve the ills of the region...

I know people will die... I know people will suffer... I know people languish under a different kind of tyranny.... But i figure....

If they are so insistent on it, let them have their bitter fruit, let them learn.

but i figure, and i'm being cynical right now, that people will do one or both of two things.

1. blame our failures on outsiders (USA, Israel, West, other competing Islamic countries)
2. Say that the current government is corrupt and does not represent the 'true' Islam and that it needs to be replaced by another Islamist group.

but maybe i'm being too harsh, maybe people are smarter then that. But i can't help but be a bit bitter and look at it as social evolution. Not unlike when people flocked and fought tooth and nail for Communism.

different political systems, same arguement if you know and understand history.

SaudiFury

No one want to accept personal responsibility, that's why they cooked up religion in the first place. "The Devil made me do it!"

br0kenrabbit

[QUOTE="l4dak47"]One of the reasons why the ME is the way it is is because of the U.S.'s involvement there a few decades ago. Not the only factor, but it's a factor nevertheless and to deny that would be dumb. kingkong0124

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"][QUOTE="l4dak47"] I don't know who Howard Zinn is. Furthermore, my view isn't skewed. The U.S. are one of the main reasons why the ME is the way it is. They funded and gave weapons to groups In Afghanistan who eventually became the Taliban, they overthrew the leader of Iran and installed a brutal dictator, they continue to fund nations like Saudi Arabia who are one of the worst when it comes to human rights, they funded Hussein and overthrew him when he became useless leading to a destabilized Iraq, and they continue to interfere in Afghanistan.Darkman2007

there is something I do not understand, the US is supporting Iraq financially, the same Iraq who are allies of Iran , an enemy of of the US (in most ways anyways) although Im not sure why you would say Egypt is being kept afloat by the US, they don't get that much.

Ok, do you know what foreign aid is used for? In egypt for example? or in saudi arabia? And Howard Zinn has more knowledge in his right toenail than you will ever have in your entire body. BossPerson

Funny thing is, the people there often elect backwards leaders too...look at Egypt. They got the chance and they blew it. Sorry not our fault.

Howard Zinn is an idealist...sorry not practical.

[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

kingkong0124

[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

kingkong0124

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"] USA does not fund Saudi Arabia to keep it afloat. USA arms Saudi Arabia yes, at a night hefty price, in the hopes that the USA won't have to come to it's defense (and it can finally lighten it's military presence in the region). But Saudi Arabia (right now) isn't hurting and looking for handouts from the USA. look to Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, and Iraq for that. BossPerson

there is something I do not understand, the US is supporting Iraq financially, the same Iraq who are allies of Iran , an enemy of of the US (in most ways anyways) although Im not sure why you would say Egypt is being kept afloat by the US, they don't get that much.

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"][QUOTE="l4dak47"] I don't know who Howard Zinn is. Furthermore, my view isn't skewed. The U.S. are one of the main reasons why the ME is the way it is. They funded and gave weapons to groups In Afghanistan who eventually became the Taliban, they overthrew the leader of Iran and installed a brutal dictator, they continue to fund nations like Saudi Arabia who are one of the worst when it comes to human rights, they funded Hussein and overthrew him when he became useless leading to a destabilized Iraq, and they continue to interfere in Afghanistan.Darkman2007

there is something I do not understand, the US is supporting Iraq financially, the same Iraq who are allies of Iran , an enemy of of the US (in most ways anyways) although Im not sure why you would say Egypt is being kept afloat by the US, they don't get that much.

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

[QUOTE="l4dak47"]One of the reasons why the ME is the way it is is because of the U.S.'s involvement there a few decades ago. Not the only factor, but it's a factor nevertheless and to deny that would be dumb. Abbeten

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

It's true the West does meddle in Muslim world affairs, and still does.

what is also true is that there are a lot of alleged conspiracies by Arabs, Iranians, and Pakistani's that the US/Israel/West has done some wrong to them. A favorite is blaming Israel for a lot of crap that they have nothing to do with, or allegedly making conspiracy out of it.

There is this real big conspiracy that it's the outside world that is holding down the Arab/Muslim world from greatness. it's not.

We have dictators, so called 'Presidents' that stick around for decades, and monarchs that use religion as the carrot and stick. People b*tch and moan about it, uprise for freedom of the people, only to turn around and endorse theocracy and THINK that will solve the ills of the region...

I know people will die... I know people will suffer... I know people languish under a different kind of tyranny.... But i figure....

If they are so insistent on it, let them have their bitter fruit, let them learn.

but i figure, and i'm being cynical right now, that people will do one or both of two things.

1. blame our failures on outsiders (USA, Israel, West, other competing Islamic countries)
2. Say that the current government is corrupt and does not represent the 'true' Islam and that it needs to be replaced by another Islamist group.

but maybe i'm being too harsh, maybe people are smarter then that. But i can't help but be a bit bitter and look at it as social evolution. Not unlike when people flocked and fought tooth and nail for Communism.

different political systems, same arguement if you know and understand history.

whipassmt

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

there is something I do not understand, the US is supporting Iraq financially, the same Iraq who are allies of Iran , an enemy of of the US (in most ways anyways) although Im not sure why you would say Egypt is being kept afloat by the US, they don't get that much.

Darkman2007