The Patriot Act

there have been presidents in the past who have suspended habeas corpus and even issued special orders. even clinton issued his own special orders. i much rather prefer the patriot act to a clinton who wonders whether or not he has the legal authority to take out obl. many of these terrorists are not in the same place by the time these special warrents are issued and the opportunity to either nabb them or obtain vital information has passed us by. you can complain all you want about "torture" while the enemy murders because you won't convert or because you've helped the "infidels". this is not the same kind of confrontation that we had with communism. it merits a different approach. these people cannot be negotiated with nor reasoned with. even the head of the main muslim support organization in this country CAIR has expressed a desire for sharia law to reign over this country. while you get worried of a "wrong number" our country remains at war. dcsjax

no it doesn't. but we are not talking about american citizens making calls from their own home. we are talking about terrorists in foreign countries calling allies within this country. as with any law, abuses will be made, but to protect american lives and defend our country from those who would use our own political and judicial system to thwart our attempts to apprend terrorists, we need this legislation, it is not mycarthyism, its just common sense. if you view terrorists as an imminent threat, what do you propose be done? quicklynow, time and history are waiting on your reply.dcsjax

I would likea "Freedom Act" and it would get the government out of the lives of the people in and out of the country.hoola

there have been presidents in the past who have suspended habeas corpus and even issued special orders. even clinton issued his own special orders. i much rather prefer the patriot act to a clinton who wonders whether or not he has the legal authority to take out obl. many of these terrorists are not in the same place by the time these special warrents are issued and the opportunity to either nabb them or obtain vital information has passed us by. you can complain all you want about "torture" while the enemy murders because you won't convert or because you've helped the "infidels". this is not the same kind of confrontation that we had with communism. it merits a different approach. these people cannot be negotiated with nor reasoned with. even the head of the main muslim support organization in this country CAIR has expressed a desire for sharia law to reign over this country. while you get worried of a "wrong number" our country remains at war. dcsjax

Wow that sounds like a very real threat. :|

link?

And I especially like your justification for torture: the enemy kills people.

If you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will jump out. But if you slowly bring it to a boil, it won't notice the change and it will die.

That is the same concept behind the repealing of our rights and the PATRIOT act and all of the following bills that have promised us more security at the cost of liberty.

There is going to be a breaking point when we can longer jump out. And the government only keeps turning the heat up...

Watch This - 10 Steps to Facsim

[QUOTE="dcsjax"]there have been presidents in the past who have suspended habeas corpus and even issued special orders. even clinton issued his own special orders. i much rather prefer the patriot act to a clinton who wonders whether or not he has the legal authority to take out obl. many of these terrorists are not in the same place by the time these special warrents are issued and the opportunity to either nabb them or obtain vital information has passed us by. you can complain all you want about "torture" while the enemy murders because you won't convert or because you've helped the "infidels". this is not the same kind of confrontation that we had with communism. it merits a different approach. these people cannot be negotiated with nor reasoned with. even the head of the main muslim support organization in this country CAIR has expressed a desire for sharia law to reign over this country. while you get worried of a "wrong number" our country remains at war. bradleybhoy

Wow that sounds like a very real threat. :|

link?

And I especially like your justification for torture: the enemy kills people.

As if you knew what Sharia Law was. The western definition of Sharia Law is so bastardized, it would take a full college course alone to convince people they don't know what they are talking about. No country in the world uses full Sharia Law, in fact, Sharia law really can't even exist without a Caliphate, and there hasn't been one since well before WWI.

repealing the patriot act and opposition to similar legislation may just lead us to the day when we see a mushroom cloud over american soil. hold a bird in your hands. too tight and you crush him. too loose and he flies away. just how loose do you want that liberty? cause too loose and we could lose it all in one fell swoop. again, what would you do to defend agaisnt these terrorists? not one alternative solution has been proffered and yet you criticize the on currently employed.dcsjax

We should stop all nuclear proliferation (on our soil as well), use the money spent maintaining nukes to feed and educate every single person in the world, not one child excluded, and withdrawl our occupation from all foreign nations.

There...our enemies are gone.

repealing the patriot act and opposition to similar legislation may just lead us to the day when we see a mushroom cloud over american soil. hold a bird in your hands. too tight and you crush him. too loose and he flies away. just how loose do you want that liberty? cause too loose and we could lose it all in one fell swoop. again, what would you do to defend agaisnt these terrorists? not one alternative solution has been proffered and yet you criticize the on currently employed.dcsjax

We got attacked once since Pearl Harbor. Thats a pretty amazing record comparitively with the rest of the world. Yet we still have people willing to throw away civil liberties, for what? some dream that maybe one day we will be 100% secure. You can not have 100% security, it just can't happen - unless you kill everyone around you, but still... one day you too will die naturally regardless. So why take away from others to fool yourself into thinking that you are more secure?

While in reality... these are just bills that take power from you as a free thinking individual and transfers them to the government, under the blanket of fear and paranoia, all the while giving false promises of an immortal future.

rimnet, look at what has happened in sudan with that british school teacher or that rape victim in saudi arabia. that is sharia law. sharia law would total negate our constitution entirely.dcsjax

You are nothing but a fool, if you think that is Sharia Law.

Shoeman I LOOOOOOVE your avatar.

Fred Thompson 08'

LikeHaterade

I love it too! Wise man!

its the same argument as with guns. you take guns out of law abiding citizens hands and the only ones with guns are the criminals with an open invitation. by your statments i can only conclude that you subscribe to communist ideals. dcsjax

[QUOTE="dcsjax"]its the same argument as with guns. you take guns out of law abiding citizens hands and the only ones with guns are the criminals with an open invitation. by your statments i can only conclude that you subscribe to communist ideals. wemhim

Exactly, this kid is just making blanket statements - its rediculous. I probably shouldn't be suprised considering he has a grand total of 17 posts.

d9, so in other words, become an isolationist country and greatly increase wealth redistribution. take money from those who earn it and give to those who do not want to take care of their own. great. btw, you forgot, bow the knee to allah, for that is the true reason these terrorists wish us dead. basically, you wish the destruction of america completely. good luck with that.dcsjax

We police the world with our military. That's one reason why people hate us. It's called blow back.

The money spent maintaining the nuclear supply in America could instead be used to feed every SINGLE person in the world.

Bow to the knee of Allah? The reason "these terrorists wish us dead" is because we're occupying their homelands and crapping all over their culture just because we want their resources. They were our allies not too long ago when they were fighting the Soviets. Why were they fighting the Soviets? To convert them? NO! To preserve their homeland.

Nobody wishes for the destruction of America, but your mentality puts its future at risk. There is never going to be a nuclear attack on America and even if there was, it wouldn't be terrorists.

well, rimnet, i have yet to see anyone refute it. certainly none of the muslims in the US. nor anyone in the liberal media. in fact , there have been muslims here to speak out against the terorrists only to have their iman's declaring that they are speaking against islam and banning them from their organizations. dcsjax

Once again blanket statements. Bravo. First of all, the contemporary definition of an Imam is one who leads prayer. They have no authority. Secondly, there has been quite a huge outcry from Muslims who condemn these acts... however they dont get airtime.Just look at the thread I made regarding Iran not having a nuclear program... you know how many times it has fallen off the front page, while other threads as rediculous as Jeff Gerstman getting booted clocked 5 posts a minute.

Stop thinking reality is what is between your seat and the television screen. If you want answers, ask someone educated in these are, who isn't biased or has an agenda. Stop generalizing and grouping people based on vague definitions. Then maybe you can make a statement that actually holds water.

What DCS says is correct. That is their version of Sharia Law. (By their I mean the radical muslims. I don't mean all muslims.) I've seen the video twice now of the taliban dragging that poor woman out into the street and shooting her in the head with an AK-47 all because she wasn't wearing the proper clothing. Worldlink TV has run a couple documentaries about various prison's in the middle east that are full of women that were up for execution because they weren't wearing the proper clothing. Or the documentary about the muslim male who was going to kill his fiance because she was sexually assaulted. Also, that was the view of the whole town in that documentary and not just some selected muslim male.

repealing the patriot act and opposition to similar legislation may just lead us to the day when we see a mushroom cloud over american soil. hold a bird in your hands. too tight and you crush him. too loose and he flies away. just how loose do you want that liberty? cause too loose and we could lose it all in one fell swoop. again, what would you do to defend agaisnt these terrorists? not one alternative solution has been proffered and yet you criticize the on currently employed.dcsjax

Oh yes because the US would be wiped out with a single nuke....

Any idiot knows that the second someone nukes any major, nuclear capable country their people will be annihilated. Why do you think there haven't been nuclear attacks since WW2? Why do you think the cold war never went hot?

And in all honesty, I would much rather go up in a mushroom cloud then give up my freedoms. The thing is we are in no real danger and yet the government has taken advantage of the fact that there are many blind and paranoid fools who, since 9/11, think the whole world is out to get us.

It is funny how you made that comment about terrorists torturing that journalist when our government is using the Patriot Act to torture and even kill innocent people.

It is the government and people like you that people in other countries have issues with us....

And you know for a fact that we are torturng innocent people? That is quite a claim to make at our troops. I hope you aren't just popping off and smearing them. I hope you have proof. I know the New York Times would like your proof. They'd love to tag that on Bush.
maheo30

Well first let me post proof of this act being abused

Hey what do ya know, it's unconcstitutional! (Could have told them that myself)

As for torturing people, this is widely known man....(It is right there in the first paragraph or so)

Oh my God I cannot begin to understand what kind of weird denial you guys must be in....

Abu Ghraib is WIDELY KNOWN!!! I believe it was Abu Ghraib which was where those soldiers were prosecuted for their mistreatment of prisoners......

Jesus Christ you guys frighten me. This is ignorance on a level I have never seen before....

Talk to the New York Times about that. They purposely ran the Abu Ghraib story into the ground to hurt Bush. They didn't care at all about our troops. Accusing them of torture? That crap. Are there some bad apples in the bunch? Of course there are and they were punished and will be. To consistently accuse the prez and our troops of torture and war crimes is the epitomy of a koolaid drinker. And it is wrong to boot!
maheo30

Yes, Abu Ghraib was no big deal...

Letter from Abu Ghraib #1 from Noor

This is a message from your sister Noor, in the American-Zionist prison of Abu Ghraib. Where should I start? The pen is unable to describe to you the misery and the indignation in the prison. Shall I describe for you the hunger while you eat, or shall I describe the thirst while you drink, or the nudity while you dress, or the sleep deprivation while you rest?

... But when I reflect upon our desecrated honour and my situation, I burst into tears.

... Dear brothers and sisters, how can I, in Allah's Name, describe or put into words, the mental and physical suffering we undergo at the hands of the Americans, let alone the severe beatings and daily torture which we try to endure to keep our honour and save your trust.

... You are responsible before Allah for our destiny. The Americans in Abu Ghraib have already desecrated both the honour of you and us.

In whosoever's hand this message finds itself, I request and urge you in the Name of Allah, to raise your voices against this brutal treatment, especially the noble scholars of Islam who fear Allah, who have a pulpit and a platform, this message is a trust which you have to broadcast from your platform, you noble ones.

Remember that once you looked to your sisters in Palestine? Now we are suffering, especially when we see the Zionists drinking alcohol and then violating our honour and chastity like wild beasts. We scream for help to save us from these beasts but no one seems to hear our desperate cry.

You noble one. How many times have you died! Our honour and chastity has been violated, our clothes have been torn, our stomachs have been starved, and our tears are running but there is no supporter or helper.

I do not want to say farewell before saying Fear Allah in your next of kin. The wombs are full from illegitimate bastards from rape. We urge you again: Fear Allah and remember your next of kin!

Also before the farewell: I call upon the nobles ones, if you have weapons attack the prison and kill us with them (Americans) inside the prison. I urge you by Allah, I urge you by Allah, I urge you by Allah!

Your sister in Allah,
Noor

Letter #2 from Fatima

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Mercy-giving. "Say He is God the One; God the Source [of everything]; Not has He fathered, nor has He been fathered; nor is anything comparable to Him." [Qur'an, Surat 112 "al-Ikhlas"]

I chose this noble Surah from the Book of God because it has the greatest impact on me and on all of you and it strikes a particular kind of awe in the hearts of Believers.

My brother Mujahideen in the path of God! What can I say to you? I say to you: our wombs have been filled with the children of fornication by those sons of apes and pigs who raped us. Or I could tell you that they have defaced our bodies, spit in our faces, and tore up the little copies of the Qur'an that hung around our necks? God is greatest! Can you not comprehend our situation? Is it true that you do not know what is happening to us? We are your sisters. God will be calling you to account [about this] tomorrow.

By God, we have not passed one night since we have been in prison without one of the apes and pigs jumping down upon us to rip our bodies apart with his overweening lust. And we are the ones who had guarded our virginity out of fear of God. Fear God! Kill us along with them! Destroy us along with them! Don't leave us here to let them get pleasure from raping us! It will be an act to ennoble the Throne of Almighty God. Fear God regarding us! Leave their tanks and aircraft outside. Come at us here in the prison of Abu Ghurayb.

I am your sister in God (Fatimah). They raped me on one day more than nine times. Can you comprehend? Imagine one of your sisters being raped. Why can't you all imagine it, as I am your sister. With me are 13 girls, all unmarried. All have been raped before the eyes and ears of everyone.

They won't let us pray. They took our clothes and won't let us get dressed. As I write this letter one of the girls has committed suicide. She was savagely raped. A soldier hit her on her chest and thigh after raping her. He subjected her to unbelievable torture. She beat her head against the wall of the cell until she died, for she couldn't take any more, even though suicide is forbidden in Islam. But I excuse that girl. I have hope that God will forgive her, because He is the Most Merciful of all.
Brothers, I tell you again, fear God! Kill us with them so that we might be at peace. Help! Help! Help! [Wa Mu'atasima!]

1.Muslims were killing each other before america even existed. Committing terrorism against each other. We are not the problem.

2.You are breaking my heart with those letters rimnet. Those poor people somehow and innocently wandered onto a battlefield and were taken prisoner? Yeah right!!! I'll trust my troops over those letters!

abu ghraib was reprehensible, but they didn't kill any of the prisoners. noone lost a head for being on the wrong side. noone had their bodies dragged out and put out for camera crews to record it. yes, there will be soldiers do criminal acts, but this is war. chaninator, you seem to be more outraged over that than terrorists murdering teachers for teaching women and girls. even more outraged than the terrorists murdering recruits for the iraqi police force who are trying to regain contol of their country. where is your outrage over these events? but if you had your way, we'd eliminate our military and "educate the world" you are the one with your head in the sand to think that this is the reason why they hate us. they even murder other muslims who are viewed as aiding the "infidels"dcsjax

Oh don't get me wrong I think there is loads of scum that is bringing down the entire Middle East. The thing is, our government has done plenty of reprehensible stuff, and the stuff they put some of those people is worse than death. I hope you realize this: Locking someone in solitary confinement for years on end will drive any mentally healthy person insane.

Thing is those people need to solve this themselves. I hate to say it but they are the only ones who can change things over there. All we are doing is fueling hatred over there, I am sorry. Also, the Patriot Act does nothing to adress those issues, and that is what the topic was about after all.

I do believe there was supposedly at least one report where they managed to kill a prisoner during interrogation and later found them to be innocent, but I don't have a source for that and I am not going to bother looking for one as I have no idea where to start and I am tired as hell.....

request of *

The very first paragraph in the New Yorker is a bald faced lie. I didn't need to read any farther than that.
maheo30

In the era of Saddam Hussein, Abu Ghraib, twenty miles west of Baghdad, was one of the world's most notorious prisons, with torture, weekly executions, and vile living conditions. As many as fifty thousand men and women-no accurate count is possible-were jammed into Abu Ghraib at one time, in twelve-by-twelve-foot cells that were little more than human holding pits.

What part of that is a lie?

The Patriot act makes me proud not to be an American.stopitandtidyup

AMEN

[QUOTE="stopitandtidyup"]The Patriot act makes me proud not to be an American.dave2thegrave

AMEN