The reason Christianity is important....

Without Christianity, a lot of people wouldn't be smart enough to still follow certain ethical guidelines because they wouldn't fear being punished as much. All those Christians that say "It was God who saved me...God who brought me out of prison"....So if there was no God you'd be a bad person still?

If there was no Christianity, America would be in mass chaos as there are lots of people (not you necessarily, but other people) who only are nice because they are afraid of being punished by God when they die(as my "Would you break the law if you were invisible?" topic proved).

You know non-Christians function perfectly well without fearing a God or divine punishment.

We also have laws that govern society which are not bound to religion (although influenced on religion, though this is just because religious laws are the basic laws that any society will need to function).

Do you see athiests running around raping and murdering people just because they don't fear the Christian God?

Don't be so ridiculous.

I was stunned when a person once asked me why I behaved if I didn't believe in god. It never occurred to me that some people would just not give a damn if they didn't believe which is odd to me.

I thought the majority of people who are in prison are Christians. Anyway, you are not a moral person if the only reason you do good is because you fear an imaginary being.Genetic_Code

If no god exists (and even, I would argue, if one does), then morality is relative, so your terms "moral person" and "do good" are subjective and fairly meaningless...

Societies existed and functioned just fine long before Christianity came to be...chessmaster1989

Which is worse: sinning because you don't care about God, or not sinning solely because you are afraid of eternal punishment?

I honestly don't know. While I agree that Christianity contains a lot of positive messages, I cannot help but shake my head at the way in which so many only seem to perform them out of fear, rather than out of the love that they ought to hold for everyone.

Societies existed and functioned just fine long before Christianity came to be...chessmaster1989

Do you think Romans would have been civilized if they didn't fear being punished by Zeus? Same idea

RJay123

To what extent is a population truly civilized if the only thing preventing them from raping, pillaging, and murdering is the belief that they'll be subjected to pain if they don't?

I would like to think people have more reason not to sin than that.

I'm really at a loss right now... can't say wether that's completely right or not

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]Societies existed and functioned just fine long before Christianity came to be...RJay123

The religion of the ancient Greeks and Romans did not have the same kind of moral guidelines that Christianity does. The worshipping of the gods was more or less confined simply to that, worship. If you're at all familiar with the Greek gods, you'd know they aren't exactly moral by most modern standards. :P

The hypothesis that without Christianity and religion there would be some kind of Nihilistic crime wave reflects on the person saying it I think. Are you saying that if you didn't believe in god for moral guidance you would go on a killing spree, or rape children? Actually, the opposite is true. Two of the least religious societies (Japan and the Czech Republic) have the lowest sexual violence and the lowest violent crime rates.Locke562

Not only do we drink the most beer but we also have the lowest sexual violence and crime rates? Sweet.

[QUOTE="RJay123"]

Do you think Romans would have been civilized if they didn't fear being punished by Zeus? Same idea

GabuEx

To what extent is a population truly civilized if the only thing preventing them from raping, pillaging, and murdering is the belief that they'll be subjected to pain if they don't?

I would like to think people have more reason not to sin than that.

I am not sure how people would react if they were certain there was no God.

RJay123

Well, in some countries in Europe polls show that belief in God is as low as 10-20%, so... it can't be that bad.

Societies existed and functioned just fine long before Christianity came to be...chessmaster1989

[QUOTE="RJay123"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]Societies existed and functioned just fine long before Christianity came to be...chessmaster1989

The religion of the ancient Greeks and Romans did not have the same kind of moral guidelines that Christianity does. The worshipping of the gods was more or less confined simply to that, worship. If you're at all familiar with the Greek gods, you'd know they aren't exactly moral by most modern standards. :P

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]Societies existed and functioned just fine long before Christianity came to be...RJay123

You cant assume that the Greeks or the Romans had the same perception of the divine as we do now.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="RJay123"]Well there have been different religions in the past though. Do you think Romans (or Greeks I can't remember) would have been civilized if they didn't fear being punished by Zeus? Same idea

hamstergeddon

The religion of the ancient Greeks and Romans did not have the same kind of moral guidelines that Christianity does. The worshipping of the gods was more or less confined simply to that, worship. If you're at all familiar with the Greek gods, you'd know they aren't exactly moral by most modern standards. :P

It's true though. How many myths are there about Zeus going and raping a virgin mortal? :P

If no god exists (and even, I would argue, if one does), then morality is relative, so your terms "moral person" and "do good" are subjective and fairly meaningless...

chessmaster1989

Societies existed and functioned just fine long before Christianity came to be...chessmaster1989

This.

Trust me it's not about religion. How many of us know horrible "zealots"? I'm not singling out just Christianity, I'm talking about Mormons, Arabs, Jews, WHOMEVER. Someone who hides behind words on a page. Someone who thinks because they believe and you don't it gives them the right to look down their nose at you and condescend. Someone who talks about being good and virtuous and then does just the opposite of what they preach.

We know a lot of these people, because they are not taking their own advice. How do they enter into your logic? If anything they are a bane for their respective religions, giving them a bad name and bad reputation.

On the flip side, we all know those people who are good. Who give and are honest and can be relied upon to do the right thing. They exemplify their respective religions and should be exhalted as such,

What's my point? It's simple. Think hard about what I am saying as it is as true as the sun. There simply are good and bad people IRRESPECTIVE of their religions or belief systems. Religion will never go away, as well it shouldn't. It DOES provide guidance and insight into our lives. It CAN be cathartic and life-changing, but to say any one religion is more important than another is just not true.

Beauty, truth and virtue coexist with ugliness, lies and sin. It's all within US, it's OUR CHOICE.

Without Christianity, a lot of people wouldn't be smart enough to still follow certain ethical guidelines because they wouldn't fear being punished as much. All those Christians that say "It was God who saved me...God who brought me out of prison"....So if there was no God you'd be a bad person still?

If there was no Christianity, America would be in mass chaos as there are lots of people (not you necessarily, but other people) who only are nice because they are afraid of being punished by God when they die(as my "Would you break the law if you were invisible?" topic proved).

RJay123

Or maybe without rigid guidelines by which to live people would be more open to explore different views of morality and be more open and empathetic towards conflicting points of view? I'm not saying I'm against Christianity, I'm just against your logic. Being raised to function exclusively within stringent guidelines makes people unable to function without those guidelines, learning to function without them is simply taking a different approach to life.

[QUOTE="hamstergeddon"][QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

The religion of the ancient Greeks and Romans did not have the same kind of moral guidelines that Christianity does. The worshipping of the gods was more or less confined simply to that, worship. If you're at all familiar with the Greek gods, you'd know they aren't exactly moral by most modern standards. :P

chessmaster1989

It's true though. How many myths are there about Zeus going and raping a virgin mortal? :P

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

If no god exists (and even, I would argue, if one does), then morality is relative, so your terms "moral person" and "do good" are subjective and fairly meaningless...

Genetic_Code

In your opinion, yes...

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="hamstergeddon"] heh. I lol'ed at that. If you look at a lot of the old mythological family trees you see Jeus appear multiple times in different generations of the same bloodline tester962

It's true though. How many myths are there about Zeus going and raping a virgin mortal? :P

Hera had this nasty streak of punishing the women that Zeus raped... >_>

Well from my perspective. Not only Christianity but the belief in Divinity has helped many people throughout time.The very first schools were religous institutions that would educate the poor with the use of the bible. Studying the Bible covered large bases of philosophy, grammar, reading, and so on. The Church became the school for the poor and it helped many peasants thrive out of the dark ages. Religion or Atheism itself should not be directly attacked if the one who abides by either one is ignorant. So in a way I agree. Christianity is important, to me at least.

EDIT: Glitch

[QUOTE="tester962"][QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

It's true though. How many myths are there about Zeus going and raping a virgin mortal? :P

chessmaster1989

Hera had this nasty streak of punishing the women that Zeus raped... >_>

Fan fact: Two very popular (sometime) arguments for the existence of God used by Christians were actually expressed by Cicero....

One of them was that the worshipping of God was observed throught the earth in different cultures with many similarities. I dont remember the other.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="tester962"] Yeah or like the one where Poseidon raped Medusa who was a virgin follower of Athena. Athena instead of punishing Poseidon for the rape instead punished Medusa by turning her into the Gorgon. Great moral values those mythological gods had =ptester962

Hera had this nasty streak of punishing the women that Zeus raped... >_>

Indeed, Greek (and Roman) mythology is extremely interesting. Have you ever read Ovid's Metamorphoses?

Fan fact: Two very popular (sometime) arguments for the existence of God used by Christians were actually expressed by Cicero....

One of them was that the worshipping of God was observed throught the earth in different cultures with many similarities. I dont remember the other.

Teenaged

I do love argumentum ad populum...

Well from my perspective. Not only Christianity but the belief in Divinity has helped many people throughout time.The very first schools were religous institutions that would educate the poor with the use of the bible. Studying the Bible covered large bases of philosophy, grammar, reading, and so on. The Church became the school for the poor and it helped many peasants thrive ot of the dark ages. Religion or Atheism itselfshould not be directly attacked if the one whobided by it is ignorant. So in a way I agree. Christianity is important, to me at least

Kamekazi_69

[QUOTE="tester962"][QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Hera had this nasty streak of punishing the women that Zeus raped... >_>

chessmaster1989

Indeed, Greek (and Roman) mythology is extremely interesting. Have you ever read Ovid's Metamorphoses?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

Fan fact: Two very popular (sometime) arguments for the existence of God used by Christians were actually expressed by Cicero....

One of them was that the worshipping of God was observed throught the earth in different cultures with many similarities. I dont remember the other.

chessmaster1989

I do love argumentum ad populum...

In your opinion, yes...

chessmaster1989

[QUOTE="Kamekazi_69"]

Well from my perspective. Not only Christianity but the belief in Divinity has helped many people throughout time.The very first schools were religous institutions that would educate the poor with the use of the bible. Studying the Bible covered large bases of philosophy, grammar, reading, and so on. The Church became the school for the poor and it helped many peasants thrive ot of the dark ages. Religion or Atheism itselfshould not be directly attacked if the one whobided by it is ignorant. So in a way I agree. Christianity is important, to me at least

tester962

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

In your opinion, yes...

Genetic_Code

So, what makes your morals the correct ones? ;)

And, yes, I can. :|

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

Fan fact: Two very popular (sometime) arguments for the existence of God used by Christians were actually expressed by Cicero....

One of them was that the worshipping of God was observed throught the earth in different cultures with many similarities. I dont remember the other.

Teenaged

I do love argumentum ad populum...

Similarities naturally exist due to the fact that those who thought up the gods were all human beings.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

I do love argumentum ad populum...

chessmaster1989

Similarities naturally exist due to the fact that those who thought up the gods were all human beings.

Well from my perspective. Not only Christianity but the belief in Divinity has helped many people throughout time.The very first schools were religous institutions that would educate the poor with the use of the bible. Studying the Bible covered large bases of philosophy, grammar, reading, and so on. The Church became the school for the poor and it helped many peasants thrive ot of the dark ages. Religion or Atheism itselfshould not be directly attacked if the one whobided by it is ignorant. So in a way I agree. Christianity is important, to me at least

So, what makes your morals the correct ones? ;)

And, yes, I can. :|

chessmaster1989

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]Well it s little more complicated that that. It emphasises more on the fact that there are similarites between different religions. Not so much the numbers. But surely an important factor of the argument.

Teenaged

Similarities naturally exist due to the fact that those who thought up the gods were all human beings.

That is debateable. It is natural for human beings to explain something for which they have no current explanation. In the case of something as complex as the origin of the universe or the origin of life, and without any other knowledge, it is not unlikely that one might think of a divine creator. Human beings want there to be a reason for things, and "god" is much easier to dismiss as beyond our comprehension than the formation of the universe.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Similarities naturally exist due to the fact that those who thought up the gods were all human beings.

chessmaster1989

That is debateable. It is natural for human beings to explain something for which they have no current explanation. In the case of something as complex as the origin of the universe or the origin of life, and without any other knowledge, it is not unlikely that one might think of a divine creator. Human beings want there to be a reason for things, and "god" is much easier to dismiss as beyond our comprehension than the formation of the universe.

I am just explaining the damn argument! :x

:P

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

So, what makes your morals the correct ones? ;)

And, yes, I can. :|

Genetic_Code

Technically speaking, there's only one universally human definition of good and that's of incest being wrong. To put your morals forth as the universal defintion of good is pretty specious.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

So, what makes your morals the correct ones? ;)

And, yes, I can. :|

Genetic_Code

*yawn* that was one of the most absurd generalizations that I have ever seen... better luck next time...

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"][QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

So, what makes your morals the correct ones? ;)

And, yes, I can. :|

theone86

Technically speaking, there's only one universally human definition of good and that's of incest being wrong. To put your morals forth as the universal defintion of good is pretty specious.

Which, of course, is why some people (especially several centuries back, when marriage of royal families was kept within the family to "preserve" the bloodline) do marry within their own family? :|