The drill was contaminated before launch. If they found some organic material or a bacteria it will be debated for decades. Going to be worse than the moon landing conspiracy theories if it's something big.
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]Sometimes I wonder if this space stuff is just a waste of tax dollars. Why spend millions of dollars to bring back some stupid dust from the moon? That money could be better spent elsewhere.
Inconsistancy
Not really, it's only a few "billions" of dollars, compared to our trillions of dollar budget and hundreds of billions of dollars in military alone.
It's not a waste to explore, and it advances science here on Earth, to better understand the solar system. That and, there often are spin-offs from these ventures into the ~"unknown".
People like you probably would have told the Spanish government "don't send Columbus around the world, we already know it's flat"
People have known the Earth was spherical for thousands of years. The whole reason Columbus was sent on his voyage was to work out a more direct route to the Far East (instead of having to sail around Africa).Yeah, like on war. D'OHSometimes I wonder if this space stuff is just a waste of tax dollars. Why spend millions of dollars to bring back some stupid dust from the moon? That money could be better spent elsewhere.
ShadowMoses900
[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]Yeah, like on war. D'OHWow, what a sh*tty counterargumentSometimes I wonder if this space stuff is just a waste of tax dollars. Why spend millions of dollars to bring back some stupid dust from the moon? That money could be better spent elsewhere.
Justinps2hero
[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"][QUOTE="Pirate700"]While I get where you're coming from, without the space program you wouldn't have that computer to post on or satellites for tv or phone.
Ace6301
My post was pro-space exploration. I'm just taking a longer view of things.
Spin-off technology is nice, but that's not really the point.
Spin-off technology alone should be enough to convince naysayers that space exploration is a good investment. You'd think the whole learning how to prevent a massive meteor impact would be enough but apparently people think something else would save our ass.I think the experience and knowledge about space alone is worth it. Some people just prefer to live in a bubble and ignore the rest of their backyard (the cosmos).
Obligatory Hubble photos
And, you now, there are other suns.
br0kenrabbit
None that will ever be of use to us as a species, ever.
[QUOTE="Pirate700"]There would be absolutely nothing lame about finding a living or even fossilized microorganism on Mars. It would be one of the greatest scientific finds of all time. If this is the case I want to read everything about how it works, it's metabolic pathways anything :3 I doubt we could learn much about it though unless they run tests there, it would be dead ocne it reaches earth if it is aliveSome new space dust I bet. Or some lame microorganism.
Tylendal
I'm suspicious of why NASA is even saying anything now rather than just waiting until they've finished confirming whatever it is they want to say.Laihendi
Ghahahahahaha
How scary would it be if they said "a footprint". Sounds weird to say scary, but honestly to think there is a life force out there who has been on mars would give me the impression that we are boned if anyone wants to say hello.
[QUOTE="bigfoot2045"]Watch your head. Honestly you were asking for it:P[QUOTE="MrPraline"]first one to post a giorgio tsoukalos meme gets shot in the headmuller39
[QUOTE="brucewayne69"]If you're referring to the possibility of running out of resources, well, probably. We might have a solution by then. But none of that solves the big issue named the Sun. 5 billion years and this Solar System is fvcking toastbr0kenrabbit
5 billion years is plenty of time to procrastinate. We'll do something in the next one or two billion, I'm sure. Or three at the most.
Maybe four.
When predicitng the habitablity of Earth by humans you have to consider other factors like:
[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]There are other sources of energy other than the sun.Do you have any idea how far away they are?And, you now, there are other suns.MrGeezer
Proxima Centauri is just over 4 light years away. If we can hit 10% the speed of light (easily possible with an ion engine once it's up to speed) we could reach it in a lifetime.
And then there's always generational ships.
[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]
And, you now, there are other suns.
coolbeans90
None that will ever be of use to us as a species, ever.
How do you figure?
Do you know what a Dyson Sphere is? I can see that happening in the far future.
[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]
[QUOTE="brucewayne69"]If you're referring to the possibility of running out of resources, well, probably. We might have a solution by then. But none of that solves the big issue named the Sun. 5 billion years and this Solar System is fvcking toastDarkGamer007
5 billion years is plenty of time to procrastinate. We'll do something in the next one or two billion, I'm sure. Or three at the most.
Maybe four.
When predicitng the habitablity of Earth by humans you have to consider other factors like:
The moon will never leave Earth. It will, however, become tidally locked, meaning the Earth and Moon will always be showing the same face to each other much as our moon always shows the same face to us now.
So if the moon 'parks' over the eastern hemisphere, the western hemisphere will never see the moon again.
At that point, the moon will no longer be getting further away, because the tidal buldge that is currently causing it to speed up (and thus recede) will be stationary as opposed to being slightly ahead of the moon as it is now (due to Earths rotation).
I'm sure they have many times over. Don't count on it ever being what they report though.what proof do you have for that?[QUOTE="johnd13"]
I wish they found proof of an alien life form. It has to be this...
Pirate700
[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]
[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]
And, you now, there are other suns.
br0kenrabbit
None that will ever be of use to us as a species, ever.
How do you figure?
Material requirements, energy requirements, a lack of nearby earths, and transportation logistics requiring generational continuation during travel. The math is pretty ugly. There are reasons why physicists are far, far less optimistic about the possibility of space travel of this sort than the rest of the population.
No one else raising an eyebrow to the whole "in a few weeks" bs you know what else is in a "few weeks" December 21st odd isn't is. Guerentee whatever it will end us all or something bad is about to happen nowps3revYour "Guerentee"(s) aren't worth much
No one else raising an eyebrow to the whole "in a few weeks" bs you know what else is in a "few weeks" December 21st odd isn't is. Guerentee whatever it will end us all or something bad is about to happen nowps3rev
Yes, on Mars they found evidence that an ancient civilisation on Earth was correct about the end of their inhabited planet. Obviously the Mayans were space travelers. And then simply "telling" us what they found is going to destroy the world.
Makes all kinds of sense.
Material requirements, energy requirements, a lack of nearby earths, and transportation logistics requiring generational continuation during travel. The math is pretty ugly. There are reasons why physicists are far, far less optimistic about the possibility of space travel of this sort than the rest of the population.
coolbeans90
Physicists assure us that it's possible, just that we're not quite there yet.
One of the real difficulties is energy. If you can supply the energy, you've got half your basis covered. The work going right now with fusion (at very, very small scales) is promising, but obviously needs to mature quite a bit.
But let's say we figure fusion out. H2 (molecular hydrogen) is thought to be readily available in space, and it's perfect fusion fuel.
And at that point in our technological advancement, we wouldn't need planets to live on: we could accure the resources we need from whatever solid bodies are around and build our own artificial environments.
"What about gravity?" you ask. Easy: spin.
Why not? It'd likely only be a bacteria, not any thing complex.[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="johnd13"] Doubt very much they would announce it to the world even if they did.Inconsistancy
Probably proof of water on Mars.Pittfan666
Liquid water? other than that, the polar ice caps are... ice.
Ya liquid water. Evidence is strong but the proof would be sweet.[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]
And, you now, there are other suns.
coolbeans90
None that will ever be of use to us as a species, ever.
Incorrect. I'm sure there's at least one person who was conceived in the backseat of a car after taking the girl out for a night of "star gazing".[QUOTE="Inconsistancy"][QUOTE="MrPraline"] Why not? It'd likely only be a bacteria, not any thing complex.
[QUOTE="Pittfan666"]Probably proof of water on Mars.Pittfan666
Liquid water? other than that, the polar ice caps are... ice.
Ya liquid water. Evidence is strong but the proof would be sweet.Can't be liquid water on the surface Mars, atmospheric pressure is too low. They've already found water ice just beneath the surface (it was Opportunity or Spirit, can't remember which) and it sublimed away when exposed.
Physicists assure us that it's possible, just that we're not quite there yet.
One of the real difficulties is energy. If you can supply the energy, you've got half your basis covered. The work going right now with fusion (at very, very small scales) is promising, but obviously needs to mature quite a bit.
But let's say we figure fusion out. H2 (molecular hydrogen) is thought to be readily available in space, and it's perfect fusion fuel.
And at that point in our technological advancement, we wouldn't need planets to live on: we could accure the resources we need from whatever solid bodies are around and build our own artificial environments.
"What about gravity?" you ask. Easy: spin.
br0kenrabbit
Physicists are somewhat pessimistic enough about settling Mars in the very, very, very distant future, which requires many orders of magnitudes less energy than the dreamy space ambitions you describe. Additionally, they are far more pessimistic than the general population and physics undergrads.
Fusion-powered ships would require thousands of years to travel to a new earth. Maybe a couple decades to alpha centauri if we really push physics to its limits. You then need to develop materials that won't disintegrate during the trip. You think rubber seals are gonna last? And even then, parts will fail which will need replacement even with really excellent control systems due to the length of the trip. Gases will escape from their containers, requiring a method to replenish on board. Essentially, you'll need a bit of industry on the ship just to deal with long-term maintenance issues that make the upkeep of our infrastructure look like a self-resolving cakewalk. You then need social structures that will endure for the entire voyage, possibly across numerous generations. Then you have the fact that critical failures result in instant death - little pockets of matter that is to small to detect but will destroy everything upon contact at a substantial velocity.
Never mentioned gravity b/c it's almost a non-issue in contrast to everything else. We will probably be able to do fusion before being able to create artificial environments from random materials around us. (we have not been able to artificially create/replicate a our biosphere to date, though this also seems theoretically surmountable, in comparison to the energy problem. however, the notion of taking a chunk of rock which may or may not contain the matter we need and turning it into what we need it to . . . yeah, that's going to take a while)
Essentially, to do even the space travel thing requires a self-sustaining ship capable of traveling for hundreds of years without access to earth with a stable society and an amount of energy completely unfathomable to us now. Oh, and not dying en route due to sh!t in space or bouts of radiation.
But you are talking much, much larger than interstellar travel.
It doesn't look good, and that's under an ideal scenario.
Now, returning to reality, we have not left low-earth orbit in thirty years. We are not putting much of a budget towards developing nuclear fusion. We are quickly burning through fossil fuels that have permitted us to develop as rapidly as we have. Sh!t, we are even content with it, too.
TBH, it's looking to me like we are facing a material development plateau. Other things will improve, but the exponential growth that we saw from the industrial revolution does not seem likely to last. We won't fall back into a dark age or anything, but we're eventually going to have to come to grips with the fact that things mightn't change all that much WRT growth. Of course, I say this independent of the space stuff as it is pertinent to people in general.
Physicists are somewhat pessimistic enough about settling Mars in the very, very, very distant future, which requires many orders of magnitudes less energy than the dreamy space ambitions you describe. Additionally, they are far more pessimistic than the general population and physics undergrads.
Fusion-powered ships would require thousands of years to travel to a new earth. Maybe a couple decades to alpha centauri if we really push physics to its limits. You then need to develop materials that won't disintegrate during the trip. You think rubber seals are gonna last? And even then, parts will fail which will need replacement even with really excellent control systems due to the length of the trip. Gases will escape from their containers, requiring a method to replenish on board. Essentially, you'll need a bit of industry on the ship just to deal with long-term maintenance issues that make the upkeep of our infrastructure look like a self-resolving cakewalk. You then need social structures that will endure for the entire voyage, possibly across numerous generations. Then you have the fact that critical failures result in instant death - little pockets of matter that is to small to detect but will destroy everything upon contact at a substantial velocity.
Never mentioned gravity b/c it's almost a non-issue in contrast to everything else. We will probably be able to do fusion before being able to create artificial environments from random materials around us. (we have not been able to artificially create/replicate a our biosphere to date, though this also seems theoretically surmountable, in comparison to the energy problem. however, the notion of taking a chunk of rock which may or may not contain the matter we need and turning it into what we need it to . . . yeah, that's going to take a while)
Essentially, to do even the space travel thing requires a self-sustaining ship capable of traveling for hundreds of years without access to earth with a stable society and an amount of energy completely unfathomable to us now. Oh, and not dying en route due to sh!t in space or bouts of radiation.
But you are talking much, much larger than interstellar travel.
It doesn't look good, and that's under an ideal scenario.
Now, returning to reality, we have not left low-earth orbit in thirty years. We are not putting much of a budget towards developing nuclear fusion. We are quickly burning through fossil fuels that have permitted us to develop as rapidly as we have. Sh!t, we are even content with it, too.
TBH, it's looking to me like we are facing a material development plateau. Other things will improve, but the exponential growth that we saw from the industrial revolution does not seem likely to last. We won't fall back into a dark age or anything, but we're eventually going to have to come to grips with the fact that things mightn't change all that much WRT growth. Of course, I say this independent of the space stuff as it is pertinent to people in general.
coolbeans90
I've never suggested that these things are right around the corner, and in fact said that what we are currently doing now is taking the first 'baby steps' toward this possible future.
I don't forsee such things being possible for a thousand or few years, but I do believe we will get there eventually. Mankind even 100 years ago could not envision the world we live in today, and to write off any future advancements that physics say is possible, just difficult, is short-sighted.
As for the fusion thing, I wasn't suggesting that as a means of propulsion, but rather as an energy source for things like electronics, heat, lighting, growing foodstuffs, etc. The ion engine is probably the best currently known method of propulsion.
Further, avoidance of debris is a non-issue if you have the means to move it with a ram well in advance of the ship arriving at that location. A repulsive electrostatic ram could clear out the smaller particles, followed by larger physical devices. The ship would travel in the envelope behind these devices.
And I'm also not suggesting we take astroid rocks and turn them into something else. Metallic asteroids are a dime a dozen, and there's bound to be such solid debris around any star.
I see these ships as being more a multitude of structures, perhaps not even physically connected but travelling together in such a fashion that it may appear as if they are. This way failure of one structure would not affect the functionality of another.
Also keep in mind that the faster the ship travels, the slower time passes for its occupants. So while a ship bound to Proxima Centauri may from Earths perspective take generations, it could theoretically happen in a single lifetime for those aboard if we can reach sufficient speeds.
Further, all elements originate with hydrogen. If we've got fusion down, we could produce whatever elements we want from it (nucleosynthesis) as this is exactly how stars do it.
And free hydrogen being quite available in space, there's not much we can't do once we get the secrets to fusion down. Again, not in our lifetime, but I do think our species will get there eventually.
Edit: WTH is with GS and the random removal of spaces between words lately?:evil:
but I do think our species will get there eventually.
Edit: WTH is with GS and the random removal of spaces between words lately?:evil:
br0kenrabbit
I wish I could agree, and I hope you are right. I'm all for seeing what we can do with the space sh!t anyhow.
And GS used to do that with me when I used IE. (don't judge - college library)
Too little time/energy for lengthy rebuttal, but reaching decent speeds is a whole additional can of worms that requires that much more energy, with relativity working against us.
[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]
but I do think our species will get there eventually.
Edit: WTH is with GS and the random removal of spaces between words lately?:evil:
coolbeans90
I wish I could agree, and I hope you are right. I'm all for seeing what we can do with the space sh!t anyhow.
And GS used to do that with me when I used IE. (don't judge - college library)
Too little time/energy for lengthy rebuttal, but reaching decent speeds is a whole additional can of worms that requires that much more energy, with relativity working against us.
But ion engines like to accelerate. They do it naturally once you give them an initial shove. The faster they go, they faster they want to go.
Edit: And I'm using Chrome.:)
[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]
Sometimes I wonder if this space stuff is just a waste of tax dollars. Why spend millions of dollars to bring back some stupid dust from the moon? That money could be better spent elsewhere.
br0kenrabbit
Unless you're one of those kooks who beleives the world has a pre-defined date with death, at some point we're going to have to get off this rock.
Right now we're just taking baby steps, but that's how you learn to run.
Not to mention our fuel for space exploration has led to huge leaps in technology that have been applied in other areas.. A good example of this is the tele communication system we have which was built upon the R&D NASA has done.[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]
[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]
but I do think our species will get there eventually.
Edit: WTH is with GS and the random removal of spaces between words lately?:evil:
br0kenrabbit
I wish I could agree, and I hope you are right. I'm all for seeing what we can do with the space sh!t anyhow.
And GS used to do that with me when I used IE. (don't judge - college library)
Too little time/energy for lengthy rebuttal, but reaching decent speeds is a whole additional can of worms that requires that much more energy, with relativity working against us.
But ion engines like to accelerate. They do it naturally once you give them an initial shove. The faster they go, they faster they want to go.
Edit: And I'm using Chrome.:)
... You also forget the fact that going at those speeds will mean that if a pebble were to hit the hull, it would be like getting hit by a small nuclear bomb..[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]
[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"]
but I do think our species will get there eventually.
Edit: WTH is with GS and the random removal of spaces between words lately?:evil:
br0kenrabbit
I wish I could agree, and I hope you are right. I'm all for seeing what we can do with the space sh!t anyhow.
And GS used to do that with me when I used IE. (don't judge - college library)
Too little time/energy for lengthy rebuttal, but reaching decent speeds is a whole additional can of worms that requires that much more energy, with relativity working against us.
But ion engines like to accelerate. They do it naturally once you give them an initial shove. The faster they go, they faster they want to go.
hmmm
will need to read
It looks like they'd take a LONG time to accelerate
you get a lot more out of your propellant
if you kept accelerating, I guess you'd eventually get p. high up there after some years
but then you'd presumably have to decelerate through a similar mechanism, doubling the time you are not at peak speed.
I'd pull out the calculator and punch out some integrals, but I think I'ma bed instead.
I'll read up on it tho
but it still seems like you're stuck with the problem of travelling well below light speed
[QUOTE="br0kenrabbit"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]
I wish I could agree, and I hope you are right. I'm all for seeing what we can do with the space sh!t anyhow.
And GS used to do that with me when I used IE. (don't judge - college library)
Too little time/energy for lengthy rebuttal, but reaching decent speeds is a whole additional can of worms that requires that much more energy, with relativity working against us.
sSubZerOo
But ion engines like to accelerate. They do it naturally once you give them an initial shove. The faster they go, they faster they want to go.
Edit: And I'm using Chrome.:)
... You also forget the fact that going at those speeds will mean that if a pebble were to hit the hull, it would be like getting hit by a small nuclear bomb..Thus the rams I was talking about in the big post up there.
The rams can take damage and it won't matter because they aren't connected to the ships. You'd definately want a dense material, and they'd have to be very large, but it's quite possible if economy isn't an issue. If they are sharply cone-shaped the damage to the rams can be miminized quite a bit.
With a large ram wired to produce a very large repulsive electrostatic field impacts should be rare, as one would assume an army of reconnaissance probes would be travelling far enough ahead that minor course corrections could be made well in advance of any large debris. It's the old 'one meter movement now equals a thousand kilometer deviation down the road' rule. You wouldn't need to move the rams and their accompanying ships much at all.
will need to read
It looks like they'd take a LONG time to accelerate
you get a lot more out of your propellant
if you kept accelerating, I guess you'd eventually get p. high up there after some years
but then you'd presumably have to decelerate through a similar mechanism, doubling the time you are not at peak speed.
I'd pull out the calculator and punch out some integrals, but I think I'ma bed instead.
I'll read up on it tho
but it still seems like you're stuck with the problem of travelling well below light speed
coolbeans90
It would be a dual-drive system. You'd use a more conventional method to get to threshold speed and then pop the ion engines on. Decelerating near a star can be achieved with a large solar 'parachute' to catch the solar wind in additional to ducting the ion drive forward (though the intake would have to remain in forward position as well or it wouldn't get any 'fuel').
Of course they found 'something'. Need to have something 'exciting' discovered here and there in order to justify the money they spend.
Minimizing damage from collisions at a fraction of the speed of light, to me, seems just a little wishful. Provided you could get those electrostatic fields to work, you have a winner. Unless, of course, you run into a bit of a cloud that is beyond the capacity of the system to handle, causing the entire fleet to disintegrate. Additionally, if you do anticipate physical damage to the rams themselves, then you have to consider whether residual particle matter would happen to work its way past the rams in addition to the debris from the collision.
'one meter movement now equals a thousand mile deviation down the road'
omg two different unit systems bro
It would be a dual-drive system. You'd use a more conventional method to get to threshold speed and then pop the ion engines on. Decelerating near a star can be achieved with a large solar 'parachute' to catch the solar wind in additional to ducting the ion drive forward (though the intake would have to remain in forward position as well or it wouldn't get any 'fuel').
br0kenrabbit
hmmmm
I prob should have physics instead of engineering
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