We cannot let the propsed healthcare plan to pass...

Ah, fear mongering at its finest.Tauruslink

Yes! Fact stating and fear mongering are the same thing! Keep up the logic! :D

[QUOTE="Tauruslink"]Ah, fear mongering at its finest.magnax1

Yes! Fact stating and fear mongering are the same thing! Keep up the logic! :D

[QUOTE="Xeros606"]

[QUOTE="Foolz3h"]

"HealthCare will be provided to ALL non-US
> c itizens, illegal or otherwise!"

How is this in any way a bad thing?

pyromaniac223

Why should I have to pay for someone elses Healthcare when they themselves do not pay taxes? It is only giving benifits to being ILLEGAL.

[QUOTE="magnax1"]

[QUOTE="Tauruslink"]Ah, fear mongering at its finest.-Sun_Tzu-

Yes! Fact stating and fear mongering are the same thing! Keep up the logic! :D

Well, I guess I only read about the first four or five. But they were all true. No way I'm going to read that whole thing. Anyway, they need to rebuild the bill, look at the problems in other government run healthcare systems and try to fix them. They didn't do any of that.

I hope it doesn't pass. My mom is an R.N. and works for Blue Cross Blue Shield and if this passes then my mom will be making next to nothing.Deathxcore

Is your mom mentioned in the bill?

Is there a "Deathxcore's mom can NOT be paid over XXX amount per year" clause in the proposed bill?

We slap the forefathers in the face every time we allow black people to use the bathroom.

Theokhoth

Black people being free =/= slapping freedom in the face

Just because they weren't originally free didn't mean it's what the forefathers wanted. They could've passed legislation, or made it part of the constitution to have black people kept as slaved and every colony would've readily radified the constitution, with less problems

[QUOTE="pyromaniac223"]

[QUOTE="Xeros606"] We'll end up paying for people who come here illegally.

DarkGamer007

Why should I have to pay for someone elses Healthcare when they themselves do not pay taxes? It is only giving benifits to being ILLEGAL.

[QUOTE="Deathxcore"]I hope it doesn't pass. My mom is an R.N. and works for Blue Cross Blue Shield and if this passes then my mom will be making next to nothing.TBoogy

Is your mom mentioned in the bill?

Is there a "Deathxcore's mom can NOT be paid over XXX amount per year" clause in the proposed bill?

[QUOTE="DarkGamer007"]

[QUOTE="pyromaniac223"] We'll end up paying for people who come here illegally.

pyromaniac223

Why should I have to pay for someone elses Healthcare when they themselves do not pay taxes? It is only giving benifits to being ILLEGAL.

[QUOTE="TBoogy"]

[QUOTE="Deathxcore"]I hope it doesn't pass. My mom is an R.N. and works for Blue Cross Blue Shield and if this passes then my mom will be making next to nothing.DivergeUnify

Is your mom mentioned in the bill?

Is there a "Deathxcore's mom can NOT be paid over XXX amount per year" clause in the proposed bill?

That wasn't my point. My point is why does he think people having insurance means his mom gets paid less?

Hell, people will probably go to the hospital more, so she will be needed more.

[QUOTE="DarkGamer007"]

[QUOTE="pyromaniac223"] God forbid a few dollars go towards saving lives.

pyromaniac223

Why should I have to pay for someone elses Healthcare when they themselves do not pay taxes? It is only giving benifits to being ILLEGAL.

I wonder if it's even possible for them to pay taxes. How can an illegal fill out papers correctly? (Like their social security number, address, source of income, employer, etc.)

[QUOTE="pyromaniac223"][QUOTE="DarkGamer007"] God forbid a few dollars go towards saving lives.

Tauruslink

Why should I have to pay for someone elses Healthcare when they themselves do not pay taxes? It is only giving benifits to being ILLEGAL.

This is a terrible point. Why should we pay for people when they aren't supposed to be here in the first place. They could go wait to get into the country legally to get free healthcare.

[QUOTE="Tauruslink"][QUOTE="pyromaniac223"]

Why should I have to pay for someone elses Healthcare when they themselves do not pay taxes? It is only giving benifits to being ILLEGAL.

magnax1

This is a terrible point. Why should we pay for people when they aren't supposed to be here in the first place. They could go wait to get into the country legally to get free healthcare.

[QUOTE="pyromaniac223"][QUOTE="DarkGamer007"]

Why should I have to pay for someone elses Healthcare when they themselves do not pay taxes? It is only giving benifits to being ILLEGAL.

ChicaQueenWarGa

I wonder if it's even possible for them to pay taxes. How can an illegal fill out papers correctly? (Like their social security number, address, source of income, employer, etc.)

[QUOTE="magnax1"]

[QUOTE="Tauruslink"] Do you honestly just want to let people die? This goes beyond the legal status of a person, this is about helping HUMAN BEINGS who need help. Tauruslink

This is a terrible point. Why should we pay for people when they aren't supposed to be here in the first place. They could go wait to get into the country legally to get free healthcare.

Actually what it is a bussiness, what it should be is a different point. You are saying what it should be, not what it is.

[QUOTE="ChicaQueenWarGa"]

[QUOTE="pyromaniac223"] Okay. You let labels get in the way of helping people.Tauruslink

I wonder if it's even possible for them to pay taxes. How can an illegal fill out papers correctly? (Like their social security number, address, source of income, employer, etc.)

Actually, most use fake SSN's to get jobs and such, and taxes are taken out of their paychecks.

Best of all (for uncle sam), they don't usually file tax returns, so the gov't gets to keep it all.

If illegals were a heavy burden, the gov't would have done something about them.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="magnax1"]

Yes! Fact stating and fear mongering are the same thing! Keep up the logic! :D

magnax1

Well, I guess I only read about the first four or five. But they were all true. No way I'm going to read that whole thing. Anyway, they need to rebuild the bill, look at the problems in other government run healthcare systems and try to fix them. They didn't do any of that.

[QUOTE="Tauruslink"][QUOTE="ChicaQueenWarGa"]

I wonder if it's even possible for them to pay taxes. How can an illegal fill out papers correctly? (Like their social security number, address, source of income, employer, etc.)

TBoogy

Actually, most use fake SSN's to get jobs and such, and taxes are taken out of their paychecks.

Best of all (for uncle sam), they don't usually file tax returns, so the gov't gets to keep it all.

If illegals were a heavy burden, the gov't would have done something about them.

[QUOTE="magnax1"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Even though the OP was misleading and inaccurate...-Sun_Tzu-

Well, I guess I only read about the first four or five. But they were all true. No way I'm going to read that whole thing. Anyway, they need to rebuild the bill, look at the problems in other government run healthcare systems and try to fix them. They didn't do any of that.

If you mean organs, than they give them out when they get them, wich isn't exactly rationing. If you mean in general, just because some people don't have it, doesn't mean its rationed. So no its not rationed, at least not in the way in other countries, where they only give out a certain amount, and if you are past the amount.... to bad.

Ah, fear mongering at its finest.Tauruslink

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="magnax1"]

Well, I guess I only read about the first four or five. But they were all true. No way I'm going to read that whole thing. Anyway, they need to rebuild the bill, look at the problems in other government run healthcare systems and try to fix them. They didn't do any of that.

magnax1

If you mean organs, than they give them out when they get them, wich isn't exactly rationing. If you mean in general, just because some people don't have it, doesn't mean its rationed. So no its not rationed, at least not in the way in other countries, where they only give out a certain amount, and if you are past the amount.... to bad.

The Obama Administration rushed the stimulus bill through the house ranting and raving about how the economy was about to completely collapse. When Republicans opposed the provisions in Cap and Trade, they ranted and raved about how the bill needed to be passed immediately to save the environment. And now, they're going after other Democrats who oppose Healthcare reform in its current form. Let's face it, nobody has a monopoly on fear mongering.fidosim

fidosim, you gotta' love how the democrat senator (whose name I'm drawing a blank on) actually had the balls to complain about having to read the bill before he voted on it.

edit: ooooooo 11111 post. 8)

[QUOTE="magnax1"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] The first few bullet points are still misleading. For example, health care is already being rationed in the health care system we have today, and no matter what reform is implemented, health care is going to continue to be rationed.-Sun_Tzu-

If you mean organs, than they give them out when they get them, wich isn't exactly rationing. If you mean in general, just because some people don't have it, doesn't mean its rationed. So no its not rationed, at least not in the way in other countries, where they only give out a certain amount, and if you are past the amount.... to bad.

Its not really rationing since nobody is trying to only let a certain amount be sold or given away. Also, In most countries (not all) their is limit given to the amount of money being spent on every certain kind of healthcare by the government. Like they say 100$ for Anti Biotics, and once we spend more than that, we aren't giving out more free anitbiotics. More times than not, they make it past the deadline, but as of late its been getting worse for whatever reason.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="magnax1"]

If you mean organs, than they give them out when they get them, wich isn't exactly rationing. If you mean in general, just because some people don't have it, doesn't mean its rationed. So no its not rationed, at least not in the way in other countries, where they only give out a certain amount, and if you are past the amount.... to bad.

magnax1

Its not really rationing since nobody is trying to only let a certain amount be sold or given away. Also, In most countries (not all) their is limit given to the amount of money being spent on every certain kind of healthcare by the government. Like they say 100$ for Anti Biotics, and once we spend more than that, we aren't giving out more free anitbiotics. More times than not, they make it past the deadline, but as of late its been getting worse for whatever reason.

that's not so bad... you should see the list of things my insurance agency does.

jrhawk42

exactly lol

[QUOTE="magnax1"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Rationing health care based on the ability to pay is still the rationing of health care, no matter how you try to spin. And that is absolutely not how health care works in other countries. Health care in other countries is rationed primarily on the basis of need. No matter what is done with health care, rationing is a reality. If you oppose the proposed health care reform - fine, that's your prerogative and more power to you, but let's not be delusional about the system we already have in place.

-Sun_Tzu-

They give out priorities, but not rationing. They prioritize who requires it more, not just blatantly put a cap on how much can be given. There are the resources to give out the healthcare, but not the $. Thats why the government should pay for the people who can't afford it, and leave the ones who can alone.

Its not really rationing since nobody is trying to only let a certain amount be sold or given away. Also, In most countries (not all) their is limit given to the amount of money being spent on every certain kind of healthcare by the government. Like they say 100$ for Anti Biotics, and once we spend more than that, we aren't giving out more free anitbiotics. More times than not, they make it past the deadline, but as of late its been getting worse for whatever reason.

[QUOTE="Foolz3h"]

"HealthCare will be provided to ALL non-US
> c itizens, illegal or otherwise!"

How is this in any way a bad thing?

Xeros606

So you'd be paying healthcare for people who cannot afford it and are doing harder work than most people at less pay while helping your economy? Still failing to see anything negative here, well in terms of healthcare anyway. ;)

[QUOTE="Xeros606"]

[QUOTE="Foolz3h"]

"HealthCare will be provided to ALL non-US
> c itizens, illegal or otherwise!"

How is this in any way a bad thing?

Foolz3h

So you'd be paying healthcare for people who cannot afford it and are doing harder work than most people at less pay while helping your economy? Still failing to see anything negative here, well in terms of healthcare anyway. ;)

Yep, if they get healthcare I consider that a fair tradeoff for all the services they provide us with. Have you ever picked lettuce? I would never do that for 8 bucks an hour, let alone the 6 bucks an hour illegal hispanics make doin that 10 hours a day.

So you'd be paying healthcare for people who cannot afford it and are doing harder work than most people at less pay while helping your economy? Still failing to see anything negative here, well in terms of healthcare anyway. ;)

Foolz3h

They give out priorities, but not rationing. They prioritize who requires it more, not just blatantly put a cap on how much can be given. There are the resources to give out the healthcare, but not the $. Thats why the government should pay for the people who can't afford it, and leave the ones who can alone.

magnax1

"They give out priorities, but not rationing"

What does that even mean? They absolutely do ration care. I don't see how you can possibly argue against this, because you are arguing against every economist and doctor out there. Sure, some don't like to call it "rationing" - that word has developed into taboo - but no matter what you call it, it is what it is, and the most proper term for it is "rationing".

Insurers ration care by limiting which doctors you can see, through co-payments, through deductibles, by outright denying care, ect. They do all of this to save money, because they cannot possibly stay in business if they don't ration.

[QUOTE="xbox360isgr8t"]

Whose to say everything is right or wrong? If you want to go down a path that is unethical and just totatlly slapping the forefathers in the face than go ahead and do it uniformed. but i wont stand for this **** anymore.

Theokhoth

We slap the forefathers in the face every time we allow black people to use the bathroom.

:lol: Wow....I wouldnt be suprised if you get moderated bro, Id edit quik .

What? You don't want to increase the debt by a few trillion? Are you nuts? Debt = great. I love being in a government who lives beyond it means. I should be just like them and max out all my credit cards, and then buy a house I can't afford, get a Ferrari, and ... hell, why not buy a vacation home while I'm at it as well? Stevo_the_gamer

Honestly, you can't come up with any argument besides the program will cost money? :|

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]What? You don't want to increase the debt by a few trillion? Are you nuts? Debt = great. I love being in a government who lives beyond it means. I should be just like them and max out all my credit cards, and then buy a house I can't afford, get a Ferrari, and ... hell, why not buy a vacation home while I'm at it as well? chessmaster1989

Honestly, you can't come up with any argument besides the program will cost money? :|

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]What? You don't want to increase the debt by a few trillion? Are you nuts? Debt = great. I love being in a government who lives beyond it means. I should be just like them and max out all my credit cards, and then buy a house I can't afford, get a Ferrari, and ... hell, why not buy a vacation home while I'm at it as well? fidosim

Honestly, you can't come up with any argument besides the program will cost money? :|

But any health care system is going to involve the spending of money, making it a really trivial objection, which is what I think chess was implying.

It's hard for me to argue on the issue because I can't begin to understand why people wouldn't want healthcare to be available to everyone, especially the people who direly need it and get screwed out of it by insurance companies. I remember there was this event on the east coast where doctors examined people for free in these tents outside. Thousands of people showed up from neighboring states it looked like the middle of a third world country, not the United States. It's sad we live in a powerful democracy where not everybody is entitled to basic healthcare simply because they can't pay and even sadder that their fellow Americans won't lift a finger, and even get pissed at the fact that a little bit of money out of their paychecks will be going to help those in need.

I won't mind at all if my money goes to helping others rather than going to shady insurance companies who value profits over lives. We spend more on healthcare than any other country already and it isn't even that great to begin with. Some people think that our healthcare will deteriorate if we make it universal. I don't think so. Look at the Scandinavian countries, France, Ireland.

[QUOTE="Foolz3h"]

So you'd be paying healthcare for people who cannot afford it and are doing harder work than most people at less pay while helping your economy? Still failing to see anything negative here, well in terms of healthcare anyway. ;)

fidosim

i say we legalize marijuana while we are at. :)

"HealthCare will be provided to ALL non-US
> c itizens, illegal or otherwise!"

How is this in any way a bad thing?

Foolz3h

I have no idea. I didn't really think that America was big on health. :o

> Pg 50 Section 152 - HealthCare will be provided to ALL non-US
> c itizens, illegal or otherwise!

There is so much wrong with this plan. Some of the ones i bolded and highlight I feel are the worst. But at the end its all pretty much a big highlight list of just absolute garbage.

xbox360isgr8t

Source? Link? I'm not going to believe a thing you say. And yeah helping people in need is sooooooooo evil.

[QUOTE="Chargeagles1"]

[QUOTE="xbox360isgr8t"] doesnt matter as much as the fact that the people we put into congress to vote on our behalf dont read the bill and just vote yes or no without knowing what they just did.

xbox360isgr8t

Kind of like you just did.

But you stood for big governement? The recent wars and nation building? Those things are also a slap in the face for the forefathers.

If you want national healthcare go to Canada because should wepassnational healthcare then for those of us that can afford healthcare our coverage will be worse and so will the services and quality of care. And to cut spending its simple...get rid of medicaid. This is America so help yourself to a job so you canpay your own way cause tax dollars have better things to fund.

Read the answers. The person who wrote this interpretted the bill incorrectly.ChicaQueenWarGa

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

We slap the forefathers in the face every time we allow black people to use the bathroom.

DivergeUnify

Black people being free =/= slapping freedom in the face

Just because they weren't originally free didn't mean it's what the forefathers wanted. They could've passed legislation, or made it part of the constitution to have black people kept as slaved and every colony would've readily radified the constitution, with less problems

They could've also passed legislation freeing black people.

thanks for the forward of a propaganda email you probably got. I'll get my info from real news sources thanks.

here's some facts though.

Medicare and Medicaid has less percent going to administrative fees than the average private insurance plan. also if government healthcare is so bad why do we give it to our veterans ? :P

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Honestly, you can't come up with any argument besides the program will cost money? :|

-Sun_Tzu-

But any health care system is going to involve the spending of money, making it a really trivial objection, which is what I think chess was implying.

Yes, what -Sun_Tzu- said is correct.