What are the chances of Jesus...

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Premier1101"]

Those are people, not DNA, clothes, hard evidence, anything concrete, sorry bud, word of mouth=fail

Premier1101

Then I guess we have a lot of history to throw out....

Is it me but isnt history what we can define as what has happened back then through proof? Since jesus is a sensitive subject, I'm requiring physical proof, that's it. Lots of history is defined by geological and historical finding and documentation(I am taking Western civ ancient to early modern) what history would you mean?

A lot of history is murky. Take the Picts....they left no written language and much is guessed about them...but I don't know anyone that doesn't think they existed. Ditto that for the indigenous Europeans even further back in time.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Premier1101"]

Those are people, not DNA, clothes, hard evidence, anything concrete, sorry bud, word of mouth=fail

notconspiracy

Then I guess we have a lot of history to throw out....

I take it we are suppose to believe Greek mythology then? It has just as much evidence or lack of to things such as the divinity of Jesus. I am by no means argueing that Jesus was a messiah then.. Just that there is no hardcore evidence that he was devine.. And yes you can't take all anicent history seriouslly..

Are we suppose to take the battle of thermoplae (spelling) seriouslly when the writer who saw it said the Persians number in the millions? When every researcher believes that was not true because there was not enough water sources near by to support such a army?

second, I just submitted evidence for the resurrection. If you wish to build a case for Greek mythology, then Im all ears

:lol: :lol: :lol: thats not evidence.. I just pointed to you those were books that are constantly debated.. The point of the matter when some one does a physics DEFIEING thing you require phyiscal proof.. Or Occom's Razor takes into affect.. That these were myths created, or the people interpreted somethign that they thought was devine but wasomething they could not explain.. Such as lightening.

[QUOTE="Premier1101"]show me proof other than word of mouth..... then yeah definetly.. has to approved by scientists as well as religious heads as well...ElZilcho90

How do you propose we scientifically prove an individual is the Messiah?

If he lived, then what people think of him, what was documented of him doing, could as well be all true, thus becoming the Messiah as you put it.

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Ilived"]being another one of those crazy paranoid people who claimed to be the messiah?sSubZerOo

This is only shown through testimony of blind followers.. There were alot of messiahs then, some believers claimed they can heal wounds and diease as well.. Penn and Teller go into depth with this.. This is not to say Jesus may or may not be the messiah.. I just find the reasoning behind why you think so to be flawed. You make it sound like you saw it your self.

1: Jesus was crucified

2: Jesus was entombed. This tomb was later found to be empty

3: Jesus appeared to the 12

4: Jesus appeared to James, who was a skeptic

5: Jesus appeared to Paul

6: The disciples believed the resurrection

7: Christianity rapidly spread throughout the Roman empire

These 7 facts, well 6 facts the 1st is just a necessary prerequisite, need to be explained. I submit the resurrection as an explanation. do you have any other?

All of this except the last point you got direclty from the bible.. There is no historical evidence what so ever.. Thus why FAITH TAKES in and why your points are FLAWED. Because you think there is some fact or evidence to prove Jesus's divinity when there is not.. THUS why FAITH is in place, and why the SCIENTIFIC community and many people other then that do not agree with this conclusion. I am by no means saying you are wrong.. I personally couldn't care either way.. My point is the way your going about it is your trying to state belief and faith based writings as garenteed fact and actuallity when they are certainly not.

No I am pointing out that you are basically saying that Jesus's divinity was proven fact (even though it defies physics, something we can actually repeat over and over agan and have evidence on), through the writings of holy scripture.. :roll:

Early Christian literature.. The Gospels for instance are about the life of Jesus Christ... Yet again why are these books fact again? Oh thats right they arn't because its still a highly debated topic to this day.. If it were as fact as you claim it was.. There wouldn't be numerous religions other then christianity nor would there be a huge debate about it.. Yet again they are holy scriptures..

The Gospels are biographies, repeat BIOGRAPHIES of Jesus of Nazereth, or Yeshua bin Joseph.

Second, why are these books evidence? because they contain accounts. this is how historians establish the historicity of events of ancient history, by accounts of it.

second, the epistles are evidence because they also have accounts.

second, you still have not responded to my 7 facts.

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Premier1101"]

Those are people, not DNA, clothes, hard evidence, anything concrete, sorry bud, word of mouth=fail

sSubZerOo

Then I guess we have a lot of history to throw out....

I take it we are suppose to believe Greek mythology then? It has just as much evidence or lack of to things such as the divinity of Jesus. I am by no means argueing that Jesus was a messiah then.. Just that there is no hardcore evidence that he was devine.. And yes you can't take all anicent history seriouslly..

Are we suppose to take the battle of thermoplae (spelling) seriouslly when the writer who saw it said the Persians number in the millions? When every researcher believes that was not true because there was not enough water sources near by to support such a army?

second, I just submitted evidence for the resurrection. If you wish to build a case for Greek mythology, then Im all ears

:lol: :lol: :lol: thats not evidence.. I just pointed to you those were books that are constantly debated.. The point of the matter when some one does a physics DEFIEING thing you require phyiscal proof.. Or Occom's Razor takes into affect.. That these were myths created, or the people interpreted somethign that they thought was devine but wasomething they could not explain.. Such as lightening.

[QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Premier1101"]show me proof other than word of mouth..... then yeah definetly.. has to approved by scientists as well as religious heads as well...notconspiracy

:lol: Human scientists to explain the supernatural.....

Wow are you ever misguided.. We have more then accounts.. We have physical evidence, artifacts, ruins, to study.. The battle of thermopalae is prime example.. The only written account was a huge MYTH in numbers.. But researchers are quite confident that they were able to find a realistic number to it..

[QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Premier1101"]show me proof other than word of mouth..... then yeah definetly.. has to approved by scientists as well as religious heads as well...notconspiracy

:lol: Human scientists to explain the supernatural.....

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Premier1101"]show me proof other than word of mouth..... then yeah definetly.. has to approved by scientists as well as religious heads as well...sSubZerOo

:lol: Human scientists to explain the supernatural.....

Wow are you ever misguided.. We have more then accounts.. We have physical evidence, artifacts, ruins, to study.. The battle of thermopalae is prime example.. The only written account was a huge MYTH in numbers.. But researchers are quite confident that they were able to find a realistic number to it..

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Premier1101"]show me proof other than word of mouth..... then yeah definetly.. has to approved by scientists as well as religious heads as well...Lobster_Ear

:lol: Human scientists to explain the supernatural.....

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Premier1101"]

Those are people, not DNA, clothes, hard evidence, anything concrete, sorry bud, word of mouth=fail

notconspiracy

Then I guess we have a lot of history to throw out....

I take it we are suppose to believe Greek mythology then? It has just as much evidence or lack of to things such as the divinity of Jesus. I am by no means argueing that Jesus was a messiah then.. Just that there is no hardcore evidence that he was devine.. And yes you can't take all anicent history seriouslly..

Are we suppose to take the battle of thermoplae (spelling) seriouslly when the writer who saw it said the Persians number in the millions? When every researcher believes that was not true because there was not enough water sources near by to support such a army?

second, I just submitted evidence for the resurrection. If you wish to build a case for Greek mythology, then Im all ears

:lol: :lol: :lol: thats not evidence.. I just pointed to you those were books that are constantly debated.. The point of the matter when some one does a physics DEFIEING thing you require phyiscal proof.. Or Occom's Razor takes into affect.. That these were myths created, or the people interpreted somethign that they thought was devine but wasomething they could not explain.. Such as lightening.

No thats not evidence.. If you were this misguided then you would believe greek mythology if you were taught at a young age.. Because after all its there, it must be fact. Jesus's divinity defies physics... Alot of texts during those times had great gods, heroes and missahs form other religions that did the exact samet hing.. How are you able to properly determine that they are not fact.. When they for a time had just as many claimed miraculous things happen in their lives that supposeldy made them believers 2000 yeras ago.. Thats right you CAN'T because literatures resulting from all religions and stories had that sort of super natural thing. So one can not confidently say that Jesus some how was above these because you have no evidence to prove otherwise.. Specially when he supposedly defies physics.. THUS where FAITH comes in.

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Premier1101"]

Those are people, not DNA, clothes, hard evidence, anything concrete, sorry bud, word of mouth=fail

sSubZerOo

Then I guess we have a lot of history to throw out....

I take it we are suppose to believe Greek mythology then? It has just as much evidence or lack of to things such as the divinity of Jesus. I am by no means argueing that Jesus was a messiah then.. Just that there is no hardcore evidence that he was devine.. And yes you can't take all anicent history seriouslly..

Are we suppose to take the battle of thermoplae (spelling) seriouslly when the writer who saw it said the Persians number in the millions? When every researcher believes that was not true because there was not enough water sources near by to support such a army?

second, I just submitted evidence for the resurrection. If you wish to build a case for Greek mythology, then Im all ears

:lol: :lol: :lol: thats not evidence.. I just pointed to you those were books that are constantly debated.. The point of the matter when some one does a physics DEFIEING thing you require phyiscal proof.. Or Occom's Razor takes into affect.. That these were myths created, or the people interpreted somethign that they thought was devine but wasomething they could not explain.. Such as lightening.

No thats not evidence.. If you were this misguided then you would believe greek mythology if you were taught at a young age.. Because after all its there, it must be fact. Jesus's divinity defies physics... Alot of texts during those times had great gods, heroes and missahs form other religions that did the exact samet hing.. How are you able to properly determine that they are not fact.. When they for a time had just as many claimed miraculous things happen in their lives that supposeldy made them believers 2000 yeras ago.. Thats right you CAN'T because literatures resulting from all religions and stories had that sort of super natural thing. So one can not confidently say that Jesus some how was above these because you have no evidence to prove otherwise.. Specially when he supposedly defies physics.. THUS where FAITH comes in.

second, how does his divinity defy physics? has physics disproved God?

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Premier1101"]show me proof other than word of mouth..... then yeah definetly.. has to approved by scientists as well as religious heads as well...notconspiracy

:lol: Human scientists to explain the supernatural.....

Wow are you ever misguided.. We have more then accounts.. We have physical evidence, artifacts, ruins, to study.. The battle of thermopalae is prime example.. The only written account was a huge MYTH in numbers.. But researchers are quite confident that they were able to find a realistic number to it..

Exactly.. I am not argueing the accounts of Jesus just the exgerations.. Herodotus exgerratted in his claims that the Persians was in the millions which simply was not true.. He also exgerrated other claims as well.

[QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Premier1101"]show me proof other than word of mouth..... then yeah definetly.. has to approved by scientists as well as religious heads as well...notconspiracy

:lol: Human scientists to explain the supernatural.....

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Premier1101"]

Those are people, not DNA, clothes, hard evidence, anything concrete, sorry bud, word of mouth=fail

notconspiracy

Then I guess we have a lot of history to throw out....

I take it we are suppose to believe Greek mythology then? It has just as much evidence or lack of to things such as the divinity of Jesus. I am by no means argueing that Jesus was a messiah then.. Just that there is no hardcore evidence that he was devine.. And yes you can't take all anicent history seriouslly..

Are we suppose to take the battle of thermoplae (spelling) seriouslly when the writer who saw it said the Persians number in the millions? When every researcher believes that was not true because there was not enough water sources near by to support such a army?

second, I just submitted evidence for the resurrection. If you wish to build a case for Greek mythology, then Im all ears

:lol: :lol: :lol: thats not evidence.. I just pointed to you those were books that are constantly debated.. The point of the matter when some one does a physics DEFIEING thing you require phyiscal proof.. Or Occom's Razor takes into affect.. That these were myths created, or the people interpreted somethign that they thought was devine but wasomething they could not explain.. Such as lightening.

No thats not evidence.. If you were this misguided then you would believe greek mythology if you were taught at a young age.. Because after all its there, it must be fact. Jesus's divinity defies physics... Alot of texts during those times had great gods, heroes and missahs form other religions that did the exact samet hing.. How are you able to properly determine that they are not fact.. When they for a time had just as many claimed miraculous things happen in their lives that supposeldy made them believers 2000 yeras ago.. Thats right you CAN'T because literatures resulting from all religions and stories had that sort of super natural thing. So one can not confidently say that Jesus some how was above these because you have no evidence to prove otherwise.. Specially when he supposedly defies physics.. THUS where FAITH comes in.

second, how does his divinity defy physics? has physics disproved God?

See this is where you fail.. With out going any further I have to point out that you can not argue any further your point.. Why? because your entire point is a logical fallacy.. Your begging the question.. You think some how your premise proves your conclusion.. That is not sound logic.. You think because your so called books are there that it proves divinity of Jesus.. That is false and you would be laughed out of a real debate.

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Premier1101"]show me proof other than word of mouth..... then yeah definetly.. has to approved by scientists as well as religious heads as well...sSubZerOo

:lol: Human scientists to explain the supernatural.....

Wow are you ever misguided.. We have more then accounts.. We have physical evidence, artifacts, ruins, to study.. The battle of thermopalae is prime example.. The only written account was a huge MYTH in numbers.. But researchers are quite confident that they were able to find a realistic number to it..

Exactly.. I am not argueing the accounts of Jesus just the exgerations.. Herodotus exgerratted in his claims that the Persians was in the millions which simply was not true.. He also exgerrated other claims as well.

Like 1500 greeks being left behind? no physical evidence, just herodotus.

and you cant possibly compare thermopylae to Jesus. his life wasn't important until several decades after the events took place. Thermopylae was important the very day it was over.

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Premier1101"]

Those are people, not DNA, clothes, hard evidence, anything concrete, sorry bud, word of mouth=fail

sSubZerOo

Then I guess we have a lot of history to throw out....

I take it we are suppose to believe Greek mythology then? It has just as much evidence or lack of to things such as the divinity of Jesus. I am by no means argueing that Jesus was a messiah then.. Just that there is no hardcore evidence that he was devine.. And yes you can't take all anicent history seriouslly..

Are we suppose to take the battle of thermoplae (spelling) seriouslly when the writer who saw it said the Persians number in the millions? When every researcher believes that was not true because there was not enough water sources near by to support such a army?

second, I just submitted evidence for the resurrection. If you wish to build a case for Greek mythology, then Im all ears

:lol: :lol: :lol: thats not evidence.. I just pointed to you those were books that are constantly debated.. The point of the matter when some one does a physics DEFIEING thing you require phyiscal proof.. Or Occom's Razor takes into affect.. That these were myths created, or the people interpreted somethign that they thought was devine but wasomething they could not explain.. Such as lightening.

No thats not evidence.. If you were this misguided then you would believe greek mythology if you were taught at a young age.. Because after all its there, it must be fact. Jesus's divinity defies physics... Alot of texts during those times had great gods, heroes and missahs form other religions that did the exact samet hing.. How are you able to properly determine that they are not fact.. When they for a time had just as many claimed miraculous things happen in their lives that supposeldy made them believers 2000 yeras ago.. Thats right you CAN'T because literatures resulting from all religions and stories had that sort of super natural thing. So one can not confidently say that Jesus some how was above these because you have no evidence to prove otherwise.. Specially when he supposedly defies physics.. THUS where FAITH comes in.

second, how does his divinity defy physics? has physics disproved God?

See this is where you fail.. With out going any further I have to point out that you can not argue any further your point.. Why? because your entire point is a logical fallacy.. Your begging the question.. You think some how your premise proves your conclusion.. That is not sound logic.. You think because your so called books are there that it proves divinity of Jesus.. That is false and you would be laughed out of a real debate.

wait, am I ASSUMING that the Gospels are accurate? Do you contest the validity of the 6 facts which prove the resurrection happened?notconspiracy

Yes I contest it.. You have shown not a single piece of evidence to show that the books and holy scriptures are accurate.. THUS you are begging the question and you lose your own argument by doing so.

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"] wait, am I ASSUMING that the Gospels are accurate? Do you contest the validity of the 6 facts which prove the resurrection happened?sSubZerOo

Yes I contest it.. You have shown not a single piece of evidence to show that the books and holy scriptures are accurate.. THUS you are begging the question and you lose your own argument by doing so.

[QUOTE="ElZilcho90"]

[QUOTE="Premier1101"]show me proof other than word of mouth..... then yeah definetly.. has to approved by scientists as well as religious heads as well...Premier1101

How do you propose we scientifically prove an individual is the Messiah?

If he lived, then what people think of him, what was documented of him doing, could as well be all true, thus becoming the Messiah as you put it.

So you're telling me... you suggest one Jesus, a Nazarene carpenter born in Bethlehem, never existed? That's a commonly-accepted fact by historians, you'd be hard-pressed to find one who'd suggest Jesus of Nazarus the Man never existed, at least one who doesn't scribble his historical musings on public bathroom walls with ****.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"] wait, am I ASSUMING that the Gospels are accurate? Do you contest the validity of the 6 facts which prove the resurrection happened?notconspiracy

Yes I contest it.. You have shown not a single piece of evidence to show that the books and holy scriptures are accurate.. THUS you are begging the question and you lose your own argument by doing so.

Ok for one.. How do you know they are first hand accounts.. Second how do you know they are 100% accurate from the original.. Thirdly how do you know that the followers weren't interpreting something in nature they could not explain due to the lack of knownledge they had in science? Lightening was once scene anger of the gods.. You have provided no evidnece to show that other wise.. The burden of proof is ON you not me... You are making this claim.. And you falling into a logical fallacy as well.. Your only digging your self deeper in the hole.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Premier1101"]show me proof other than word of mouth..... then yeah definetly.. has to approved by scientists as well as religious heads as well...notconspiracy

:lol: Human scientists to explain the supernatural.....

Wow are you ever misguided.. We have more then accounts.. We have physical evidence, artifacts, ruins, to study.. The battle of thermopalae is prime example.. The only written account was a huge MYTH in numbers.. But researchers are quite confident that they were able to find a realistic number to it..

Exactly.. I am not argueing the accounts of Jesus just the exgerations.. Herodotus exgerratted in his claims that the Persians was in the millions which simply was not true.. He also exgerrated other claims as well.

Like 1500 greeks being left behind? no physical evidence, just herodotus.

and you cant possibly compare thermopylae to Jesus. his life wasn't important until several decades after the events took place. Thermopylae was important the very day it was over.

actually there is evidence through artifacts they have found.. As well as accurately predicting the population at the time.. Also the Athenians did keep certain accounts of such things.. So we have multiple things to tie the clues together.. Which the arabs saved luckily when athens fell.

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"] wait, am I ASSUMING that the Gospels are accurate? Do you contest the validity of the 6 facts which prove the resurrection happened?sSubZerOo

Yes I contest it.. You have shown not a single piece of evidence to show that the books and holy scriptures are accurate.. THUS you are begging the question and you lose your own argument by doing so.

Ok for one.. How do you know they are first hand accounts.. Second how do you know they are 100% accurate from the original.. Thirdly how do you know that the followers weren't interpreting something in nature they could not explain due to the lack of knownledge they had in science? Lightening was once scene anger of the gods.. You have provided no evidnece to show that other wise.. The burden of proof is ON ME not you.. You are making this claim.. And you falling into a logical fallacy as well.. Your only digging your self deeper in the hole.

second, why do you need them to be 100% accurate? this level of accuracy is impossible

third: a dead person coming back from the dead. nature sure can explain that.

now. to back up the validity of the 6 facts:

1: appearence to the 12. clearly documented in all 4 canonized gospels

2: appearenec to James. Documented in 1 Corinthians 15 creed. dates to only 2-5 years after the life of Jesus. James' martyrdom is also mentioned by Josephus

3: appearence to Paul. Paul discusses this in his epistles, and Luke, a companion of Paul, discusses this in his acts of the apostles

4: oh, right empty tomb

A: Jerusalem factor. The first place where Jesus' disciples preached christianity was jerusalem. Jesus was publically crucified just days before. the pharisees and sanhedrin, who were enemies of Jesus, could have produced the body and falsified christianity

B: Enemy attestation. The enemies of Jesus admitted to the empty tomb by implying that the disciples stole the body. Why do this if this fact were questionable?

C: Testimony of women. the testimony of a woman was considered unreliable. If the Gospel authors were fabricating this, the first person to see the empty tomb woulden't have been a woman.

5: The disciples' belief in the reusrrection

they were martyred

this needs to be explained as the crucifixion should have ended christianity right then and there. there was no concept of a dying messiah in judaism, and everyone thought that the messiah would have thrown out the Romans, reestablish the line of David, and reign forever

6: Spread of christianity throughout Rome. again, needs to be explained

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Premier1101"]show me proof other than word of mouth..... then yeah definetly.. has to approved by scientists as well as religious heads as well...sSubZerOo

:lol: Human scientists to explain the supernatural.....

Wow are you ever misguided.. We have more then accounts.. We have physical evidence, artifacts, ruins, to study.. The battle of thermopalae is prime example.. The only written account was a huge MYTH in numbers.. But researchers are quite confident that they were able to find a realistic number to it..

Exactly.. I am not argueing the accounts of Jesus just the exgerations.. Herodotus exgerratted in his claims that the Persians was in the millions which simply was not true.. He also exgerrated other claims as well.

Like 1500 greeks being left behind? no physical evidence, just herodotus.

and you cant possibly compare thermopylae to Jesus. his life wasn't important until several decades after the events took place. Thermopylae was important the very day it was over.

actually there is evidence through artifacts they have found.. As well as accurately predicting the population at the time.. Also the Athenians did keep certain accounts of such things.. So we have multiple things to tie the clues together.. Which the arabs saved luckily when athens fell.

also, these accounts, just words on paper. most of ancient history, as in specific figures and events, is just words on paper.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"] wait, am I ASSUMING that the Gospels are accurate? Do you contest the validity of the 6 facts which prove the resurrection happened?notconspiracy

Yes I contest it.. You have shown not a single piece of evidence to show that the books and holy scriptures are accurate.. THUS you are begging the question and you lose your own argument by doing so.

Ok for one.. How do you know they are first hand accounts.. Second how do you know they are 100% accurate from the original.. Thirdly how do you know that the followers weren't interpreting something in nature they could not explain due to the lack of knownledge they had in science? Lightening was once scene anger of the gods.. You have provided no evidnece to show that other wise.. The burden of proof is ON ME not you.. You are making this claim.. And you falling into a logical fallacy as well.. Your only digging your self deeper in the hole.

Who were the Apostles did you personally know them.. Is there absolute evidence they were not bais and wrote objectively.. Thought so.

second, why do you need them to be 100% accurate? this level of accuracy is impossible

Because your trying to state somethign that goes completely against physics.. I can show you a rock falls to the ground milliuons of times over.. That birds fly millions of times over.. That every body dies millions of times over.. But I can't once show you some one raising form the dead, walking on water under their own power, healing some ones wounds with their hands.

third: a dead person coming back from the dead. nature sure can explain that.

That is exactly my point it can't be explained.. And it goes against every physical piece of evidence we have seen to this day. If you don't understand this I can't help you.. Thus why it needs ot be explaiend why..

now. to back up the validity of the 6 facts:

1: appearence to the 12. clearly documented in all 4 canonized gospels

Scrpiture

2: appearenec to James. Documented in 1 Corinthians 15 creed. dates to only 2-5 years after the life of Jesus. James' martyrdom is also mentioned by Josephus

Scirpture

3: appearence to Paul. Paul discusses this in his epistles, and Luke, a companion of Paul, discusses this in his acts of the apostles

Scripture

4: oh, right empty tomb

Prove it, with out the accounts of people that you do not know nor do we know are reliable after 2000 years.

A: Jerusalem factor. The first place where Jesus' disciples preached christianity was jerusalem. Jesus was publically crucified just days before. the pharisees and sanhedrin, who were enemies of Jesus, could have produced the body and falsified christianity

Maybe you have no idea the complete workings of the turn events there.. And I find it pathetic if you do think you have such facts.

B: Enemy attestation. The enemies of Jesus admitted to the empty tomb by implying that the disciples stole the body. Why do this if this fact were questionable?

Where was this written.. Oh thats right.. Scripture again.. If Jesus was so unattestable fact why would Islam and Judisim still thrive? As well for a time pagenism

C: Testimony of women. the testimony of a woman was considered unreliable. If the Gospel authors were fabricating this, the first person to see the empty tomb woulden't have been a woman.

WHAT are you talking about.. This is not fact more blind guiessing.

5: The disciples' belief in the reusrrection

Key word BELIEF.. Faith is whats needed to believe because there is no 100% fact this is why you fail.

they were martyred

this needs to be explained as the crucifixion should have ended christianity right then and there. there was no concept of a dying messiah in judaism, and everyone thought that the messiah would have thrown out the Romans, reestablish the line of David, and reign forever

6: Spread of christianity throughout Rome. again, needs to be explained

Sense when? One does not have to do with the other.. If this were true then Islam could be just as correct through this logic.

In the end your points are still begging the question.. You have given me no proof of any kind to show that the books can be trusted. Which is quite hilarious because its called FAITH. We can't disprove that because its the supposed super natural.. I find it shocking that you think this lol.. A chrisitan with out faith, but thinks its factual truth.

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"] wait, am I ASSUMING that the Gospels are accurate? Do you contest the validity of the 6 facts which prove the resurrection happened?sSubZerOo

Yes I contest it.. You have shown not a single piece of evidence to show that the books and holy scriptures are accurate.. THUS you are begging the question and you lose your own argument by doing so.

Ok for one.. How do you know they are first hand accounts.. Second how do you know they are 100% accurate from the original.. Thirdly how do you know that the followers weren't interpreting something in nature they could not explain due to the lack of knownledge they had in science? Lightening was once scene anger of the gods.. You have provided no evidnece to show that other wise.. The burden of proof is ON ME not you.. You are making this claim.. And you falling into a logical fallacy as well.. Your only digging your self deeper in the hole.

Who were the Apostles did you personally know them.. Is there absolute evidence they were not bais and wrote objectively.. Thought so.

second, why do you need them to be 100% accurate? this level of accuracy is impossible

Because your trying to state somethign that goes completely against physics.. I can show you a rock falls to the ground milliuons of times over.. That birds fly millions of times over.. That every body dies millions of times over.. But I can't once show you some one raising form the dead, walking on water under their own power, healing some ones wounds with their hands.

third: a dead person coming back from the dead. nature sure can explain that.

That is exactly my point it can't be explained.. And it goes against every physical piece of evidence we have seen to this day. If you don't understand this I can't help you.. Thus why it needs ot be explaiend why..

now. to back up the validity of the 6 facts:

1: appearence to the 12. clearly documented in all 4 canonized gospels

Scrpiture

2: appearenec to James. Documented in 1 Corinthians 15 creed. dates to only 2-5 years after the life of Jesus. James' martyrdom is also mentioned by Josephus

Scirpture

3: appearence to Paul. Paul discusses this in his epistles, and Luke, a companion of Paul, discusses this in his acts of the apostles

Scripture

4: oh, right empty tomb

Prove it, with out the accounts of people that you do not know nor do we know are reliable after 2000 years.

A: Jerusalem factor. The first place where Jesus' disciples preached christianity was jerusalem. Jesus was publically crucified just days before. the pharisees and sanhedrin, who were enemies of Jesus, could have produced the body and falsified christianity

Maybe you have no idea the complete workings of the turn events there.. And I find it pathetic if you do think you have such facts.

B: Enemy attestation. The enemies of Jesus admitted to the empty tomb by implying that the disciples stole the body. Why do this if this fact were questionable?

Where was this written.. Oh thats right.. Scripture again.. If Jesus was so unattestable fact why would Islam and Judisim still thrive? As well for a time pagenism

C: Testimony of women. the testimony of a woman was considered unreliable. If the Gospel authors were fabricating this, the first person to see the empty tomb woulden't have been a woman.

WHAT are you talking about.. This is not fact more blind guiessing.

5: The disciples' belief in the reusrrection

Key word BELIEF.. Faith is whats needed to believe because there is no 100% fact this is why you fail.

they were martyred

this needs to be explained as the crucifixion should have ended christianity right then and there. there was no concept of a dying messiah in judaism, and everyone thought that the messiah would have thrown out the Romans, reestablish the line of David, and reign forever

6: Spread of christianity throughout Rome. again, needs to be explained

Sense when? One does not have to do with the other.. If this were true then Islam could be just as correct through this logic.

In the end your points are still begging the question.. You have given me no proof of any kind to show that the books can be trusted. Which is quite hilarious because its called FAITH. We can't disprove that because its the supposed super natural.. I find it shocking that you think this lol.. A chrisitan with out faith, but thinks its factual truth.

YOU, not me, YOU have to explain WHY being canonized makes a document unreliable.

If i took a biography of some guy and decided "THIS BOOK WAS INSPIRED BY GOD HIMSELF!!!111" would that make it unrelable? no. so to dismiss the epistles and Gospels just because they happen to have been included in the bible is highly fallacious reasoning.

What are the chances this will turn into a religious debate.Proobie44

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"] wait, am I ASSUMING that the Gospels are accurate? Do you contest the validity of the 6 facts which prove the resurrection happened?notconspiracy

Yes I contest it.. You have shown not a single piece of evidence to show that the books and holy scriptures are accurate.. THUS you are begging the question and you lose your own argument by doing so.

Ok for one.. How do you know they are first hand accounts.. Second how do you know they are 100% accurate from the original.. Thirdly how do you know that the followers weren't interpreting something in nature they could not explain due to the lack of knownledge they had in science? Lightening was once scene anger of the gods.. You have provided no evidnece to show that other wise.. The burden of proof is ON ME not you.. You are making this claim.. And you falling into a logical fallacy as well.. Your only digging your self deeper in the hole.

Who were the Apostles did you personally know them.. Is there absolute evidence they were not bais and wrote objectively.. Thought so.

second, why do you need them to be 100% accurate? this level of accuracy is impossible

Because your trying to state somethign that goes completely against physics.. I can show you a rock falls to the ground milliuons of times over.. That birds fly millions of times over.. That every body dies millions of times over.. But I can't once show you some one raising form the dead, walking on water under their own power, healing some ones wounds with their hands.

third: a dead person coming back from the dead. nature sure can explain that.

That is exactly my point it can't be explained.. And it goes against every physical piece of evidence we have seen to this day. If you don't understand this I can't help you.. Thus why it needs ot be explaiend why..

now. to back up the validity of the 6 facts:

1: appearence to the 12. clearly documented in all 4 canonized gospels

Scrpiture

2: appearenec to James. Documented in 1 Corinthians 15 creed. dates to only 2-5 years after the life of Jesus. James' martyrdom is also mentioned by Josephus

Scirpture

3: appearence to Paul. Paul discusses this in his epistles, and Luke, a companion of Paul, discusses this in his acts of the apostles

Scripture

4: oh, right empty tomb

Prove it, with out the accounts of people that you do not know nor do we know are reliable after 2000 years.

A: Jerusalem factor. The first place where Jesus' disciples preached christianity was jerusalem. Jesus was publically crucified just days before. the pharisees and sanhedrin, who were enemies of Jesus, could have produced the body and falsified christianity

Maybe you have no idea the complete workings of the turn events there.. And I find it pathetic if you do think you have such facts.

B: Enemy attestation. The enemies of Jesus admitted to the empty tomb by implying that the disciples stole the body. Why do this if this fact were questionable?

Where was this written.. Oh thats right.. Scripture again.. If Jesus was so unattestable fact why would Islam and Judisim still thrive? As well for a time pagenism

C: Testimony of women. the testimony of a woman was considered unreliable. If the Gospel authors were fabricating this, the first person to see the empty tomb woulden't have been a woman.

WHAT are you talking about.. This is not fact more blind guiessing.

5: The disciples' belief in the reusrrection

Key word BELIEF.. Faith is whats needed to believe because there is no 100% fact this is why you fail.

they were martyred

this needs to be explained as the crucifixion should have ended christianity right then and there. there was no concept of a dying messiah in judaism, and everyone thought that the messiah would have thrown out the Romans, reestablish the line of David, and reign forever

6: Spread of christianity throughout Rome. again, needs to be explained

Sense when? One does not have to do with the other.. If this were true then Islam could be just as correct through this logic.

In the end your points are still begging the question.. You have given me no proof of any kind to show that the books can be trusted. Which is quite hilarious because its called FAITH. We can't disprove that because its the supposed super natural.. I find it shocking that you think this lol.. A chrisitan with out faith, but thinks its factual truth.

YOU, not me, YOU have to explain WHY being canonized makes a document unreliable.

If i took a biography of some guy and decided "THIS BOOK WAS INSPIRED BY GOD HIMSELF!!!111" would that make it unrelable? no. so to dismiss the epistles and Gospels just because they happen to have been included in the bible is highly fallacious reasoning.

Yet again your begging the question.. Sorry buddy I am done with this.. You seem not to understand when something that clearly defies physics.. Needs more then a few books that are controversial with numerous different beliefs.. Written by a person you have never met nor we have no real idea about.. And guess what you are going against the majority of Christianity that believes in FAITH.. jesus's divinity can't be proven thus why it takes faith to do so.. Its quite a shame you don;'t realize this and I honeslty hope you do not do this in a real debate.. Because you will be ripped to shreds and laughed out of the debate.

I am by no means saying jesus was divine or not just that it can't be proven.. Anyways good luck trying to rationally prove he was divine because you can't.

Peace.

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.htmldlind70

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"] wait, am I ASSUMING that the Gospels are accurate? Do you contest the validity of the 6 facts which prove the resurrection happened?sSubZerOo

Yes I contest it.. You have shown not a single piece of evidence to show that the books and holy scriptures are accurate.. THUS you are begging the question and you lose your own argument by doing so.

Ok for one.. How do you know they are first hand accounts.. Second how do you know they are 100% accurate from the original.. Thirdly how do you know that the followers weren't interpreting something in nature they could not explain due to the lack of knownledge they had in science? Lightening was once scene anger of the gods.. You have provided no evidnece to show that other wise.. The burden of proof is ON ME not you.. You are making this claim.. And you falling into a logical fallacy as well.. Your only digging your self deeper in the hole.

Who were the Apostles did you personally know them.. Is there absolute evidence they were not bais and wrote objectively.. Thought so.

second, why do you need them to be 100% accurate? this level of accuracy is impossible

Because your trying to state somethign that goes completely against physics.. I can show you a rock falls to the ground milliuons of times over.. That birds fly millions of times over.. That every body dies millions of times over.. But I can't once show you some one raising form the dead, walking on water under their own power, healing some ones wounds with their hands.

third: a dead person coming back from the dead. nature sure can explain that.

That is exactly my point it can't be explained.. And it goes against every physical piece of evidence we have seen to this day. If you don't understand this I can't help you.. Thus why it needs ot be explaiend why..

now. to back up the validity of the 6 facts:

1: appearence to the 12. clearly documented in all 4 canonized gospels

Scrpiture

2: appearenec to James. Documented in 1 Corinthians 15 creed. dates to only 2-5 years after the life of Jesus. James' martyrdom is also mentioned by Josephus

Scirpture

3: appearence to Paul. Paul discusses this in his epistles, and Luke, a companion of Paul, discusses this in his acts of the apostles

Scripture

4: oh, right empty tomb

Prove it, with out the accounts of people that you do not know nor do we know are reliable after 2000 years.

A: Jerusalem factor. The first place where Jesus' disciples preached christianity was jerusalem. Jesus was publically crucified just days before. the pharisees and sanhedrin, who were enemies of Jesus, could have produced the body and falsified christianity

Maybe you have no idea the complete workings of the turn events there.. And I find it pathetic if you do think you have such facts.

B: Enemy attestation. The enemies of Jesus admitted to the empty tomb by implying that the disciples stole the body. Why do this if this fact were questionable?

Where was this written.. Oh thats right.. Scripture again.. If Jesus was so unattestable fact why would Islam and Judisim still thrive? As well for a time pagenism

C: Testimony of women. the testimony of a woman was considered unreliable. If the Gospel authors were fabricating this, the first person to see the empty tomb woulden't have been a woman.

WHAT are you talking about.. This is not fact more blind guiessing.

5: The disciples' belief in the reusrrection

Key word BELIEF.. Faith is whats needed to believe because there is no 100% fact this is why you fail.

they were martyred

this needs to be explained as the crucifixion should have ended christianity right then and there. there was no concept of a dying messiah in judaism, and everyone thought that the messiah would have thrown out the Romans, reestablish the line of David, and reign forever

6: Spread of christianity throughout Rome. again, needs to be explained

Sense when? One does not have to do with the other.. If this were true then Islam could be just as correct through this logic.

In the end your points are still begging the question.. You have given me no proof of any kind to show that the books can be trusted. Which is quite hilarious because its called FAITH. We can't disprove that because its the supposed super natural.. I find it shocking that you think this lol.. A chrisitan with out faith, but thinks its factual truth.

YOU, not me, YOU have to explain WHY being canonized makes a document unreliable.

If i took a biography of some guy and decided "THIS BOOK WAS INSPIRED BY GOD HIMSELF!!!111" would that make it unrelable? no. so to dismiss the epistles and Gospels just because they happen to have been included in the bible is highly fallacious reasoning.

Yet again your begging the question.. Sorry buddy I am done with this.. You seem not to understand when something that clearly defies physics.. Needs more then a few books that are controversial with numerous different beliefs.. Written by a person you have never met nor we have no real idea about.. And guess what you are going against the majority of Christianity that believes in FAITH.. jesus's divinity can't be proven thus why it takes faith to do so.. Its quite a shame you don;'t realize this and I honeslty hope you do not do this in a real debate.. Because you will be ripped to shreds and laughed out of the debate.

second, you STILL have not explained why being canonized renders a document unreliable

third, you say that they need to be the first hand accounts of something. there is a serious problem with this.

1: This is how people in the middle ages did historical studies. in their view, only eye-witnesses counted

2: most of what we know about Tiberius, Augustus, and Julius caeasar come from Suetonius and Tacitus, who lived decades after them.

[QUOTE="Ilived"]being another one of those crazy paranoid people who claimed to be the messiah?notconspiracy

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Ilived"]being another one of those crazy paranoid people who claimed to be the messiah?FritzNietzsche

[QUOTE="FritzNietzsche"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Ilived"]being another one of those crazy paranoid people who claimed to be the messiah?notconspiracy

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="FritzNietzsche"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="Ilived"]being another one of those crazy paranoid people who claimed to be the messiah?FritzNietzsche

[QUOTE="FritzNietzsche"] But do you know it?notconspiracy

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="FritzNietzsche"] But do you know it?FritzNietzsche

1: The empty tomb

2: the appearence to James

3: The appearence to Paul

4: The appearence to the twelve

5: The disciples' belief in the resurrection.

all of these must be explained

well, the evidence, which I will present once more, supports the resurrection. I will lay this out now.

1: The empty tomb

2: the appearence to James

3: The appearence to Paul

4: The appearence to the twelve

5: The disciples' belief in the resurrection.

all of these must be explained

notconspiracy

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"]well, the evidence, which I will present once more, supports the resurrection. I will lay this out now.

1: The empty tomb

2: the appearence to James

3: The appearence to Paul

4: The appearence to the twelve

5: The disciples' belief in the resurrection.

all of these must be explained

FritzNietzsche

1:the empty tomb. Jerusalem factor, testimony of women, and enemy attestation.

2: appearence to James. This is described in the 1 Corinthians 15 creed. The creed is a confession of faith. Paul quotes it in 1 Corinthians 15 verses 3 through 8

3: appearence to Paul. This is documented by St. Luke the evangelist in his book Acts of the Apostles. Paul also talks about his visions of Jesus in his epistles

4: appearence to the twelve. 1 Corinthians 15 creed and the 4 Gospels clearly discuss this.

5: The disciples' belief in teh resurrection. This is in need of an explanation because they really shoulden't have believed that jesus was the messiah for a few reasons.

1: there was really no concept of a dying messiah in Judaism. The crucifixion should have done in christianity

2: There was no concept of a historical individual being resurrected in Judaism. The only concept was the final eschotological resurrection at the end of the world.

next, why do I side with naturalism with every other religion? well I myself haven't seen a case for the validity of other religions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E&feature=related This is basically my views on it.. I am out for good not bye.sSubZerOo

1:the empty tomb. Jerusalem factor, testimony of women, and enemy attestation.

notconspiracy

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"]

1:the empty tomb. Jerusalem factor, testimony of women, and enemy attestation.

FritzNietzsche

[QUOTE="FritzNietzsche"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"]

1:the empty tomb. Jerusalem factor, testimony of women, and enemy attestation.

notconspiracy

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="FritzNietzsche"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"]

1:the empty tomb. Jerusalem factor, testimony of women, and enemy attestation.

FritzNietzsche

what was that question? in that last post you made a statement, you didn't actually ask a question. do I know that Jesus was God? was that the question?notconspiracy

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"] what was that question? in that last post you made a statement, you didn't actually ask a question. do I know that Jesus was God? was that the question?FritzNietzsche