What are your thought on Affirmative Action?

Let's say a city is 30% immigrant. Most the people local to the city assume the immigrants come from a poor educational background. The immigrants thus have a very high unemployment rate, probably up to 20%, thus causing a destructive cycle for generations. Unless affirmative action kicks in, the immigrants can move up the economical ladder and give birth to intelligent, productive people for society.

It's pretty much the same thing here, substitute immigrants with black and Native American.

Famiking

You're still not answering the question.

Why do we care about the fact that these people are not white, rather than the fact that these people are poor and unemployed?

[QUOTE="Famiking"]

Let's say a city is 30% immigrant. Most the people local to the city assume the immigrants come from a poor educational background. The immigrants thus have a very high unemployment rate, probably up to 20%, thus causing a destructive cycle for generations. Unless affirmative action kicks in, the immigrants can move up the economical ladder and give birth to intelligent, productive people for society.

It's pretty much the same thing here, substitute immigrants with black and Native American.

GabuEx

You're still not answering the question.

Why do we care about the fact that these people are not white, rather than the fact that these people are poor and unemployed?

[QUOTE="Famiking"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]You didn't answer my question.

These people are black and Native American. But they are also poor. The fact that they are black and Native American is not the problem. The fact that they are poor is the problem.

So why are we focusing on the fact that they are black and Native American, rather than the fact that they are poor?

-Sun_Tzu-

No, if they want to help out the less fortunate, they should base it ONLY on economical merit. There's no reason a wealthy African American should get in over some poor but brilliant white kid from some inner city ghetto just because of Affirmative Action.

(I don't get why people refer to it as race-based though, like another post said white women benefit by far the most from affirmative action)the_new_guy_92

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] To me, that seems like an argument for reparations to correct a specific wrong-doing against a certain group of people, not an argument for affirmative action. Famiking

No, if they want to help out the less fortunate, they should base it ONLY on economical merit. There's no reason a wealthy African American should get in over some poor but brilliant white kid from some inner city ghetto just because of Affirmative Action.

xionvalkyrie

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Famiking"]

Let's say a city is 30% immigrant. Most the people local to the city assume the immigrants come from a poor educational background. The immigrants thus have a very high unemployment rate, probably up to 20%, thus causing a destructive cycle for generations. Unless affirmative action kicks in, the immigrants can move up the economical ladder and give birth to intelligent, productive people for society.

It's pretty much the same thing here, substitute immigrants with black and Native American.

Famiking

You're still not answering the question.

Why do we care about the fact that these people are not white, rather than the fact that these people are poor and unemployed?

No, you're not, because you're specifically talking about black people and Native Americans. The vicious cycle of poverty leading to poor education leading to poverty is true of anyone who finds themselves in it, not just black people and Native Americans. Surely you would agree that a rich black person or a rich Native American needs less help than an impoverished white person, yes?

[QUOTE="Famiking"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

You're still not answering the question.

Why do we care about the fact that these people are not white, rather than the fact that these people are poor and unemployed?

GabuEx

No, you're not, because you're specifically talking about black people and Native Americans. The vicious cycle of poverty leading to poor education leading to poverty is true of anyone who finds themselves in it, not just black people and Native Americans. Surely you would agree that a rich black person or a rich Native American needs less help than an impoverished white person, yes?

The whole point of Affirmative Action is to offset racism and discrimination. There are other programs in place to take care of the poor.

I think it is one of the stupidest things ever. I'm male and white, so everyone BUT me is getting some kind of special treatment on the behalf of the government. I don't understand how transgressions of the past entitle people who never suffered these transgressions themselves an easier ride. I thought equality was what we are trying to shoot for here in Canada (and the US)?

No, you're not, because you're specifically talking about black people and Native Americans. The vicious cycle of poverty leading to poor education leading to poverty is true of anyone who finds themselves in it, not just black people and Native Americans. Surely you would agree that a rich black person or a rich Native American needs less help than an impoverished white person, yes?

GabuEx

And the white person isn't discriminated against. But since he is poor he can probably use some social assistance.

[QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"] Of course they're disadvantaged. They could be of equal social class but fail to attain the same job and education quality than someone who was less intelligent and lazier because they didn't have the right skin colour. You can't be considered equal if you're not held to the same standard, surely it would be far more productive to help out people based on how much they need it. Yes people who are wealthier and better off will find have a kind of disadvantage, but their background will better let them cope with it and their advantages would at the very least equal out. Basing it on race is just pissing on the poor people who weren't lucky enough to be part of the right race.Famiking

I just want to state this again, because a lot of people have this misconception. White females benefit the most from Affirmative Action.

[QUOTE="Famiking"][QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"] Of course they're disadvantaged. They could be of equal social class but fail to attain the same job and education quality than someone who was less intelligent and lazier because they didn't have the right skin colour. You can't be considered equal if you're not held to the same standard, surely it would be far more productive to help out people based on how much they need it. Yes people who are wealthier and better off will find have a kind of disadvantage, but their background will better let them cope with it and their advantages would at the very least equal out. Basing it on race is just pissing on the poor people who weren't lucky enough to be part of the right race.Ace_WondersX

I just want to state this again, because a lot of people have this misconception. White females benefit the most from Affirmative Action.

And those black and Native Americans in question are poor and uneducated.

And the white person isn't discriminated against. But since he is poor he can probably use some social assistance.

Famiking

Not all black people and Native Americans are poor and uneducated.

And not all poor and uneducated people are black or Native American.

So why are we focusing on the black people and Native Americans, rather than the poor and uneducated people?

I think it is one of the stupidest things ever. I'm male and white, so everyone BUT me is getting some kind of special treatment on the behalf of the government. I don't understand how transgressions of the past entitle people who never suffered these transgressions themselves an easier ride. I thought equality was what we are trying to shoot for here in Canada (and the US)?

foxhound_fox

You are missing the point of AA...it's not to discrimination against white males...it's to offset racism that still excites today...

Let's look at this another way... American with Disabilities act keeps American with disabilities from not being hired for lack of physical or cognitive abilities. You wouldn't go around saying "That's stupid, Since I don't have a disability the government won't help me find work. Why do they get special treatment?" Now that wouldn't make much since, right? I'm not comparing the Disabled to ethnic groups but until race is not in issue AA laws are needed.

Second thing I want to address is the fact it seems like a lot of people don't really understand how Affirmative Action works in the workplace. First off affirmative action only applies to government jobs or jobs from companies attempting to get government contracts.

Third, it doesn't work like "you're white so you're not getting the job"; companies are promoted to have a certain percentage of each race directly related to the population of the area they are in. So majority white area it is fine to have a majority white staff/workforce, but if you're in a majority black area but your workforce is still majority white, then you're probably not getting that government contract.

Fourth, the government is against race based employment to matter your race. People tend to think that whites aren't protected under discrimination laws, but they are. Companies are strictly prohibited by the government from using race as a factor in employment, whether or not companies follow the rules is the problem.

It just seems like people have misconceptions on how affirmative action works.

You are missing the point of AA...it's not to discrimination against white males...it's to offset racism that still excites today...Shattered007

[QUOTE="Shattered007"]

You are missing the point of AA...it's not to discrimination against white males...it's to offset racism that still excites today...foxhound_fox

Maybe you didn't know this, but that happens to minorities in the United States

If it's wrong to give someone a job just because they're white, shouldn't it be wrong to give someone a job just because they're black? I'm all for fighting discrimination, but I don't think reverse-discrimination is the way to do it.

aransom

They are not given the job because they are black... They are given the job due to their socioeconomic situation. Either you assume blacks are all poor or you assume that affirmative action is dictated by skin colour. To be honest it sounds like you just want to complain. How can you explain white women getting the most benefit from AA? You probably don't care as you're not female. It seems as long as it doesn't benefit you you will not be satisfied.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

[QUOTE="Shattered007"]

You are missing the point of AA...it's not to discrimination against white males...it's to offset racism that still excites today...the_new_guy_92

Maybe you didn't know this, but that happens to minorities in the United States

Yeah it's pretty funny when I use my middle name of Joseph I get way more interview invitations than if I use my actual name which is of Igbo origin.

[QUOTE="the_new_guy_92"]

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]
.The only part of this I can understand is giving women and the disabled a fairer chance when it comes to the hiring process, as many businesses still prefer to take men over women, and still pay (in some cases) men more than women.

Nkemjo

Maybe you didn't know this, but that happens to minorities in the United States

Yeah it's pretty funny when I use my middle name of Joseph I get way more interview invitations than if I use my actual name which is of Igbo origin.

[QUOTE="Famiking"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

You're still not answering the question.

Why do we care about the fact that these people are not white, rather than the fact that these people are poor and unemployed?

GabuEx

No, you're not, because you're specifically talking about black people and Native Americans. The vicious cycle of poverty leading to poor education leading to poverty is true of anyone who finds themselves in it, not just black people and Native Americans. Surely you would agree that a rich black person or a rich Native American needs less help than an impoverished white person, yes?

Second thing I want to address is the fact it seems like a lot of people don't really understand how Affirmative Action works in the workplace. First off affirmative action only applies to government jobs or jobs from companies attempting to get government contracts.

Third, it doesn't work like "you're white so you're not getting the job"; companies are promoted to have a certain percentage of each race directly related to the population of the area they are in. So majority white area it is fine to have a majority white staff/workforce, but if you're in a majority black area but your workforce is still majority white, then you're probably not getting that government contract.

Fourth, the government is against race based employment to matter your race. People tend to think that whites aren't protected under discrimination laws, but they are. Companies are strictly prohibited by the government from using race as a factor in employment, whether or not companies follow the problem.

It just seems like people have misconceptions on how affirmative action works.

Ace_WondersX

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Famiking"] We ARE focusing on the fact that they are poor and unemployed, that's the whole point.jshaas

No, you're not, because you're specifically talking about black people and Native Americans. The vicious cycle of poverty leading to poor education leading to poverty is true of anyone who finds themselves in it, not just black people and Native Americans. Surely you would agree that a rich black person or a rich Native American needs less help than an impoverished white person, yes?

[QUOTE="aransom"]

If it's wrong to give someone a job just because they're white, shouldn't it be wrong to give someone a job just because they're black? I'm all for fighting discrimination, but I don't think reverse-discrimination is the way to do it.

Nkemjo

They are not given the job because they are black... They are given the job due to their socioeconomic situation.

[QUOTE="Nkemjo"]

[QUOTE="aransom"]

If it's wrong to give someone a job just because they're white, shouldn't it be wrong to give someone a job just because they're black? I'm all for fighting discrimination, but I don't think reverse-discrimination is the way to do it.

aransom

They are not given the job because they are black... They are given the job due to their socioeconomic situation.

the most qualified always should be hired

[QUOTE="aransom"]

[QUOTE="Nkemjo"]

They are not given the job because they are black... They are given the job due to their socioeconomic situation.

Ace_WondersX

[QUOTE="Ace_WondersX"][QUOTE="aransom"]You shouldn't be given preferential treatment for either reason. A job should go to the applicant who is best qualified, black, white, red, brown, yellow, green, male, female, rich, poor, right-handed, left-handed, breast-fed, formula-fed, boxer, jockey, etc. Also, when you give someone preferential treatment, aren't you telling them you don't think they're good enough to compete on a level playing field?

aransom

Example of what happens when you don't have Affirmative Action.

California Proposition 209was instated in 1996 which is an anti-Affirmative Action bill. Since then there has been a consistent drop in student of color in Universities and community colleges. Although Californian population continues to diversify and white Americans are outnumberd by enthics (as a whole)groups,college enrollment for ethic students has dropped by more than half. Can anyone that's against Affirmative Action tell me why that is? This whole "racism doesn't exist anymore" thing is not true.

[QUOTE="aransom"]

[QUOTE="Ace_WondersX"] Not really, you're telling them that you're just as good as any other candidate; but chances are that the people in charge of employment at local companies might be bigots. Also, I just want to repeat this. Companies have the ability to hire who ever they want, but the government will not give you contracts if your company is not diverse.Ace_WondersX

Even, I, a very far left socialist liberal don;t agree with affirmative action. You should get in due to your skills, not because your ancestors you likely don't care about got treated badly.

Example of what happens when you don't have Affirmative Action.

California Proposition 209was instated in 1996 which is an anti-Affirmative Action bill. Since then there has been a consistent drop in student of color in Universities and community colleges. Although Californian population continues to diversify and white Americans are outnumberd by enthics (as a whole)groups,college enrollment for ethic students has dropped by more than half. Can anyone that's against Affirmative Action tell me why that is? This whole "racism doesn't exist anymore" thing is not true.

Shattered007

Racism exists. It simply isn't nearly as dominant as people would like you to believe.

And I mean real racism. Not some 13 year old on XBOX LIVE using the N word because he knows you can't do anything about it.

[QUOTE="Ace_WondersX"][QUOTE="aransom"]So you're saying we need affirmative action because people in charge of hiring are bigots?

aransom

One universal force to negate the opposite universal force so as to achieve equilibrium. Do you believe that AA has a large effect on the majority of people who receive employment? Which force is greater?

It is racist to favor someone based on their race (which AA basically does). So....we're fighting racism with racism?

Example of what happens when you don't have Affirmative Action.

California Proposition 209was instated in 1996 which is an anti-Affirmative Action bill. Since then there has been a consistent drop in student of color in Universities and community colleges. Although Californian population continues to diversify and white Americans are outnumberd by enthics (as a whole)groups,college enrollment for ethic students has dropped by more than half. Can anyone that's against Affirmative Action tell me why that is? This whole "racism doesn't exist anymore" thing is not true.Shattered007

is there a study that shows the students of color who are being dropped are being dropped from the colleges are meeting the school requirements in gpa?

[QUOTE="Famiking"]

And those black and Native Americans in question are poor and uneducated.

And the white person isn't discriminated against. But since he is poor he can probably use some social assistance.

GabuEx

Not all black people and Native Americans are poor and uneducated.

And not all poor and uneducated people are black or Native American.

So why are we focusing on the black people and Native Americans, rather than the poor and uneducated people?

Example of what happens when you don't have Affirmative Action.

California Proposition 209was instated in 1996 which is an anti-Affirmative Action bill. Since then there has been a consistent drop in student of color in Universities and community colleges. Although Californian population continues to diversify and white Americans are outnumberd by enthics (as a whole)groups,college enrollment for ethic students has dropped by more than half. Can anyone that's against Affirmative Action tell me why that is? This whole "racism doesn't exist anymore" thing is not true.

Shattered007

I think this problem comes from two causes, and please don't call me racist because I'm going to be discussing culture here in a minute. But first let's get to schools and education.

When a school fails to meet standards, it gets less funding. Does this make sense? "Let's take the schools that aren't doing well and force them to do better with less."

So you have a whole generation of inner-city school children who aren't getting the same education their peers in the burbs are. Further, because the schools in the burbs perform better, they are always the first to receive any new tech or curriculum. Obviously, this leaves the inner-city children, who are mostly of minority races, at a disadvantage.

Secondly is culture. I'm not saying this is the case for every black person, or that this isn't the case for some white people, but there are families who live on welfare and encourage their children to do the same. Don't believe me? Read the comments section of this story in my local paper. betsytroupes comments sumarise what of lot of people in the 'projects' think. Here's her quote:

betsytroupe: 'Like we been sayinq we qone knock this lil time down '

Daywatch: 'Like we been sayinq we qone knock this lil time down '

I believe the ebonic translation is that they will have no problem serving the small amount of incarceration our courts will give them and be back in business in no time. Nothing but a thang.

betsytroupe: yeah, that daywatch. we be right back like we was.

Rainy: If betsytroupe is your real name, then shame on you. I was around your grandchildren quite a bit when they were younger. If what you've written here is really from you, I am extremely disappointed. No one owes you or your family any reparations for slavery. That time came and went a very long time ago. I have never judged your children for their skin color and I don't appreciate you wearing it thinking I owe you something. Ramon is a good person inside. There was a time when he tried to be a productive member of society, to contribute something good, and get something good in return. What have you done? Told him to forget it, he should lay on his*** and wait for someone to give it to him for free because someone with his skin color was a slave. Hey I bet if you read through history all of us have ancestors who were enslaved. Maybe you are making me a slave by paying half of what I work 70 hours a week to make to pay for your 'benefits.' Is that fair? It lays on your shoulders that you have taken an innocent, loving person and destroyed his life by giving him no hope, no future. Why is it so hard for you to provide a loving, hopeful life for your family?

I live here and I can honestly tell you that the public housing around here are full of people like Betsy. NOT ALL OF THEM, but MANY of them.

I had many black friends growing up, but I want to talk about one in particular: George. George was a great kid in elementary and middle school and always made good grades (talking top of the ****good). But after he got into High School he changed, and the reason he changed is because all his friends were making fun of him for 'acting white'. That is, studying and doing well in school.

Last time I talked to George he had been kicked out of the military and was wandering around the Knoxville shelter. Poor kid had to listen to his peers instead of his instincts, and now he's going to pay for that for the rest of his life.

Affirmative Action isn't going to solve these problems. All it does is give people an excuse to under-perform.

Affirmative Action is like trying to solve racism with more racism.

[QUOTE="Shattered007"]

Example of what happens when you don't have Affirmative Action.

California Proposition 209was instated in 1996 which is an anti-Affirmative Action bill. Since then there has been a consistent drop in student of color in Universities and community colleges. Although Californian population continues to diversify and white Americans are outnumberd by enthics (as a whole)groups,college enrollment for ethic students has dropped by more than half. Can anyone that's against Affirmative Action tell me why that is? This whole "racism doesn't exist anymore" thing is not true.

Pixel-Pirate

Racism exists. It simply isn't nearly as dominant as people would like you to believe.

And I mean real racism. Not some 13 year old on XBOX LIVE using the N word because he knows you can't do anything about it.

What I'm wording is if you quoted me base on what I wrote or force of habit and you just quoted the last post in the thread because I don't think you can argue that negative effect of prop 209 in California.

It is racist to favor someone based on their race (which AA basically does). So....we're fighting racism with racism?

Pixel-Pirate

Affirmative Action is like trying to solve racism with more racism.

789shadow

The ignorance on the issue at hand in this thread is starting to become increasingly upsetting. Please look up Affirmative Action policies. It doesn't just cover Blacks or any one race or just race for that fact. It's an Anti-discrimination bill. Like the emancipation proclamation, it does help out ethic groups but you wouldn't (I hope) say that was a bad idea, would you?

Chances are, if you're white and you mother had/has a job,went to college or applied for anygovement programs,she probablybenefactorfrom Affirmative Action. The sad thing is if this was just a bill for black I'm sure this would be the general attitude for it even if it was helping America as a whole.

I looks like I'll have to post this again

Second thing I want to address is the fact it seems like a lot of people don't really understand how Affirmative Action works in the workplace. First off affirmative action only applies to government jobs or jobs from companies attempting to get government contracts.

Third, it doesn't work like "you're white so you're not getting the job"; companies are promoted to have a certain percentage of each race directly related to the population of the area they are in. So majority white area it is fine to have a majority white staff/workforce, but if you're in a majority black area but your workforce is still majority white, then you're probably not getting that government contract.

Fourth, the government is against race based employment to matter your race. People tend to think that whites aren't protected under discrimination laws, but they are. Companies are strictly prohibited by the government from using race as a factor in employment, whether or not companies follow the rules is the problem.

It just seems like people have misconceptions on how affirmative action works.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="Shattered007"]

Example of what happens when you don't have Affirmative Action.

California Proposition 209was instated in 1996 which is an anti-Affirmative Action bill. Since then there has been a consistent drop in student of color in Universities and community colleges. Although Californian population continues to diversify and white Americans are outnumberd by enthics (as a whole)groups,college enrollment for ethic students has dropped by more than half. Can anyone that's against Affirmative Action tell me why that is? This whole "racism doesn't exist anymore" thing is not true.

Shattered007

Racism exists. It simply isn't nearly as dominant as people would like you to believe.

And I mean real racism. Not some 13 year old on XBOX LIVE using the N word because he knows you can't do anything about it.

What I'm wording is if you quoted me base on what I wrote or force of habit and you just quoted the last post in the thread because I don't think you can argue that negative effect of prop 209 in California.

Obamas election didn't end racism but it proved it isn't so prevelent in these days that race will stop someone from getting some where, or that racists are a majority.

Racism still exists. I can turn on any black comedians stand up and basically prove that as they make racist stereotypes toward white people.

I never understood why racism is only worth fighting against if it's racism toward a non-white race but racism toward whites is just fine. Racism won't die if it exists in any form, even toward whites.