Whats the most successful libertarian/conservative government?

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

Generalizations with no proof are always winning arguments. :roll:

BMD004

look up healthcare outcomes, life expectency, child mortality rates, and the happiness index... tell me if US is number one (hell look up any sort of statistic thats measurable, "socialist" countries win EVERYTHING)..... then tell me how the libertarion nations rank.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no such thing as a successful libertarian nation.... IT DOESNT EXIST, THIS IS A FACT.

Liberetarians don't like the restrictions and burden that the federal government puts on the economy.

Government caused the 2008 financial crisis when they fooled with interest rate. Government is the reason a lot of businesses in the US move out of the country. The government makes it hard for entrepreneuers to start their business and keep it going.

Government limits competition and creates inefficiency, and it is so big now that it puts a real burden on the economy.

You don't have to be a genius to see the negative effect it has on the country as a whole.

first of all there is a reason i always put socialist in quotes.

second of all, everything else you said is blatantly wrong... im guessing you read that on some weird ultra conservative website.

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

look up healthcare outcomes, life expectency, child mortality rates, and the happiness index... tell me if US is number one..... then tell me how the libertarion nations rank.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no such thing as a successful libertarian nation.... IT DOESNT EXIST, THIS IS A FACT.

SoBaus

There are no libertarian nations. They simply don't exist. And no one wants a fully libertarian government anyway. We want mixtures that protect the things we hold dear.

libertarian nations did exist, in feudal times, when you had noble and serfs... granted it wasnt a democracy... but it was an economy ruled by money... which is essentially the conservative ideal.

dont get me wrong i want to down a shot of whiskey while pointing a gun at you, smoking a cigar, and drinking salt. Im a civil libertarian myself.... but on economic issues, libertarians are out of their mind.

The Nobles and Serfs system definitely was NOT a libertarian system. Individual liberties and freedoms did not exist in those systems, so how can they be considered 'libertarian" in the first place?

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

Didn't you ask for a conservative government? Also what's up with canada being communist? :|

_BlueDuck_

That's assuming we use the American example as our reference. Sure, Harper is left of most Republicans. But I'd just say Republicans are just that much more right leaning. Still conservatives. Plus if we want to get technical, Harper and a lot of Republicans these days are neo-liberals, not really conservatives anyhow. When I think of real conservative governments, theocratic or monarchist governments come to mind.

whos the last true conservative pres iyo? if today repubs are liberal.

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

look up healthcare outcomes, life expectency, child mortality rates, and the happiness index... tell me if US is number one (hell look up any sort of statistic thats measurable, "socialist" countries win EVERYTHING)..... then tell me how the libertarion nations rank.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no such thing as a successful libertarian nation.... IT DOESNT EXIST, THIS IS A FACT.

SoBaus

Liberetarians don't like the restrictions and burden that the federal government puts on the economy.

Government caused the 2008 financial crisis when they fooled with interest rate. Government is the reason a lot of businesses in the US move out of the country. The government makes it hard for entrepreneuers to start their business and keep it going.

Government limits competition and creates inefficiency, and it is so big now that it puts a real burden on the economy.

You don't have to be a genius to see the negative effect it has on the country as a whole.

first of all there is a reason i always put socialist in quotes.

second of all, everything else you said is blatantly wrong... im guessing you read that on some weird ultra conservative website.

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

look up healthcare outcomes, life expectency, child mortality rates, and the happiness index... tell me if US is number one (hell look up any sort of statistic thats measurable, "socialist" countries win EVERYTHING)..... then tell me how the libertarion nations rank.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no such thing as a successful libertarian nation.... IT DOESNT EXIST, THIS IS A FACT.

SoBaus

Liberetarians don't like the restrictions and burden that the federal government puts on the economy.

Government caused the 2008 financial crisis when they fooled with interest rate. Government is the reason a lot of businesses in the US move out of the country. The government makes it hard for entrepreneuers to start their business and keep it going.

Government limits competition and creates inefficiency, and it is so big now that it puts a real burden on the economy.

You don't have to be a genius to see the negative effect it has on the country as a whole.

first of all there is a reason i always put socialist in quotes.

second of all, everything else you said is blatantly wrong... im guessing you read that on some weird ultra conservative website.

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

There are no libertarian nations. They simply don't exist. And no one wants a fully libertarian government anyway. We want mixtures that protect the things we hold dear.

taj7575

libertarian nations did exist, in feudal times, when you had noble and serfs... granted it wasnt a democracy... but it was an economy ruled by money... which is essentially the conservative ideal.

dont get me wrong i want to down a shot of whiskey while pointing a gun at you, smoking a cigar, and drinking salt. Im a civil libertarian myself.... but on economic issues, libertarians are out of their mind.

The Nobles and Serfs system definitely was NOT a libertarian system. Individual liberties and freedoms did not exist in those systems, so how can they be considered 'libertarian" in the first place?

maybe not on the social side, but on the ecnomic side.... it was pretty close to libertarianism. So just imagine being a serf with free speech.

so we should throw out statistics in favor of second hand anectdotal evidence? seems more reliable.

SoBaus

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"] Except I know people who live there, and aren't happy, and if you know anything about how those "indexes" are created, then you know it's statistical bulls***. Take a high school math class and come back before you post nonsense, please. It's pretty clear that at least education needs a reform in the US...Saturos3091

so we should throw out statistics in favor of second hand anectdotal evidence? seems more reliable.

ok so numbers and formulas are out? ill concede victory.

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"]And those countries aren't socialist. Those are mixed economies. Seems like you need to go back to school.

Liberetarians don't like the restrictions and burden that the federal government puts on the economy.

Government caused the 2008 financial crisis when they fooled with interest rate. Government is the reason a lot of businesses in the US move out of the country. The government makes it hard for entrepreneuers to start their business and keep it going.

Government limits competition and creates inefficiency, and it is so big now that it puts a real burden on the economy.

You don't have to be a genius to see the negative effect it has on the country as a whole.

BMD004

first of all there is a reason i always put socialist in quotes.

second of all, everything else you said is blatantly wrong... im guessing you read that on some weird ultra conservative website.

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

libertarian nations did exist, in feudal times, when you had noble and serfs... granted it wasnt a democracy... but it was an economy ruled by money... which is essentially the conservative ideal.

dont get me wrong i want to down a shot of whiskey while pointing a gun at you, smoking a cigar, and drinking salt. Im a civil libertarian myself.... but on economic issues, libertarians are out of their mind.

SoBaus

The Nobles and Serfs system definitely was NOT a libertarian system. Individual liberties and freedoms did not exist in those systems, so how can they be considered 'libertarian" in the first place?

maybe not on the social side, but on the ecnomic side.... it was pretty close to libertarianism. So just imagine being a serf with free speech.

Hmm..No, in that case, that is more of a conservative-authoritarian setup, not libertarian. Of course it has one aspect, but many different political systems might have an example of one..but that doesn't make it that system. Libertarianism having freedom on both aspects of the spectrum is the reason why it is so powerful, and it is much more than freedom of speech ;)

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

so we should throw out statistics in favor of second hand anectdotal evidence? seems more reliable.

Saturos3091

whats a corner stone of switzerland's economy? tax evasion and money laundering from socialized states? yep i think so.

You think the US can actually boost the ecnomy based on tax evasion, from US taxes?

Government caused the 2008 financial crisis when they fooled with interest rate. Government is the reason a lot of businesses in the US move out of the country.

BMD004

just going to toss this out there

the meaning of socialism

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

The Nobles and Serfs system definitely was NOT a libertarian system. Individual liberties and freedoms did not exist in those systems, so how can they be considered 'libertarian" in the first place?

taj7575

maybe not on the social side, but on the ecnomic side.... it was pretty close to libertarianism. So just imagine being a serf with free speech.

Hmm..No, in that case, that is more of a conservative-authoritarian setup, not libertarian. Of course it has one aspect, but many different political systems might have an example of one..but that doesn't make it that system. Libertarianism having freedom on both aspects of the spectrum is the reason why it is so powerful, and it is much more than freedom of speech ;)

freedom on both ends of the spectrum...? the idea behind libertarianism is to make the general populace your slaves, but have just enought government to keep your slaves from killing you.

freedom on both ends of the spectrum...? the idea behind libertarianism is to make the general populace your slaves, but have just enought government to keep your slaves from killing you.

SoBaus

That's the biggest load of horse-s*** you've said yet.

The whole point of libertarianism is to be free. Not to be slaves of anybody, unless of course you choose to.

That's the biggest load of horse-s*** you've said yet.

The whole point of libertarianism is to be free. Not to be slaves of anybody, unless of course you choose to.

airshocker

why do you feed what is so obvious?

surrealnumber5

I can't help myself!

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]

why do you feed what is so obvious?

airshocker

I can't help myself!

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

freedom on both ends of the spectrum...? the idea behind libertarianism is to make the general populace your slaves, but have just enought government to keep your slaves from killing you.

airshocker

That's the biggest load of horse-s*** you've said yet.

The whole point of libertarianism is to be free. Not to be slaves of anybody, unless of course you choose to.

if the choice is between, working for 5 cents an hour and starving.... you generally choose the 5 cents... this is how the chinese manufacturing economy works.

there isnt a terrible amount of choice involved...

[QUOTE="Saturos3091"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

so we should throw out statistics in favor of second hand anectdotal evidence? seems more reliable.

SoBaus

whats a corner stone of switzerland's economy? tax evasion and money laundering from socialized states? yep i think so.

You think the US can actually boost the ecnomy based on tax evasion, from US taxes?

cant say i have not done it before..... :(surrealnumber5

I'm bored waiting for The Witcher 2 to finish downloading. :cry:

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

freedom on both ends of the spectrum...? the idea behind libertarianism is to make the general populace your slaves, but have just enought government to keep your slaves from killing you.

airshocker

That's the biggest load of horse-s*** you've said yet.

The whole point of libertarianism is to be free. Not to be slaves of anybody, unless of course you choose to.

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

Government caused the 2008 financial crisis when they fooled with interest rate. Government is the reason a lot of businesses in the US move out of the country.

Theokhoth

Libertarianism is for republicans who are too afraid to call themselves a republican.

Same with Communism.Theokhoth

And it didn't work. Just like complete libertarianism doesn't work. That doesn't mean that some things can't be taken from both to make a good system. Unfortunately we're getting that wrong too.

Libertarianism is for republicans who are too afraid to call themselves a republican.

Hatiko

Globalization plays a HUGE role here and wasn't even apparent until 20-30 years ago. Companies moving headquarters out of countries due to taxes, others moving into countries, the complete trash that is the World Bank and International Monetary Fund putting pressure on Third World countries to accept their demands...etc. etc.

We will have to see where this takes the world, because it's pretty turbulent as is.

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

[QUOTE="Saturos3091"]

Gee, your indexes founded on skewed data are sure just as reliable. I can prove smoking pure tar is beneficial to your health with the same formula. Perhaps you would just like to pay 12% more for basic necessities like food and water? That plus a population of less than 6 million make it easy to sustain your "socialist paradise." With a population skyrocketing past 300 million, it's pretty obvious that such a concept wouldn't work in the US, where a mixed economy is obviously the most logical way of doing things.

And your analogy about feudalism is wrong on so many levels. Feudalism isn't even a form of State - the backbone of ANY economy or nation. That's rudimentary political science for you. A libertarian state, one formed on free industry, deregulated social (recreational) activities, and a relatively strong state infrastructure (NOT bureaucracy - which the aim of libertarianism is to reduce), is entirely possible. Look at Switzerland, Luxembourg, even Monaco, etc. etc. If you can use small, inconsequential countries, I can too.

EDIT: F*** html glitches

Saturos3091

whats a corner stone of switzerland's economy? tax evasion and money laundering from socialized states? yep i think so.

You think the US can actually boost the ecnomy based on tax evasion, from US taxes?

glad you brought up china... would you like to know why they are rapidly growing? Because their middle cIass is growing... and the US middle cIass is shrinking.... so all those top 1% tax break US billionaires, when they are looking for a ripe economy to invest their money... they invest in china, where the middle cIass is growing and not the US where the middle cIass average salary is declining.

thats why giving tax breaks to the top 1% has the very bottom of the barrel in terms of US GDP growth. They invest all those tax breaks in foreign markets that are gaining purchasing power as americans lose it.

Libertarianism is for republicans who are too afraid to call themselves a republican.

Hatiko

I know plenty of liberal and socialist libertarians who would take offense to this!

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

maybe not on the social side, but on the ecnomic side.... it was pretty close to libertarianism. So just imagine being a serf with free speech.

SoBaus

Hmm..No, in that case, that is more of a conservative-authoritarian setup, not libertarian. Of course it has one aspect, but many different political systems might have an example of one..but that doesn't make it that system. Libertarianism having freedom on both aspects of the spectrum is the reason why it is so powerful, and it is much more than freedom of speech ;)

freedom on both ends of the spectrum...? the idea behind libertarianism is to make the general populace your slaves, but have just enought government to keep your slaves from killing you.

...No that is corporatism..You seem to be adding in your bias into the definiton of libertarianism. If you don't like it/don't know much about it, it's easier to say that than to just define it by your own grudges against it.

glad you brought up china... would you like to know why they are rapidly growing? Because their middle cIass is growing... and the US middle cIass is shrinking.... so all those top 1% tax break US billionaires, when they are looking for a ripe economy to invest their money... they invest in china, where the middle cIass is growing and not the US where the middle cIass average salary is declining.

thats why giving tax breaks to the top 1% has the very bottom of the barrel in terms of US GDP growth.

SoBaus

Libertarianism is for republicans who are too afraid to call themselves a republican.

Hatiko

A good friend of mine is a libertarian, who makes fun of the conservative candidates for their silly policies as much as the liberal candidates. Oh, and not to mention, he hates everything about the GOP.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="BMD004"]

Government caused the 2008 financial crisis when they fooled with interest rate. Government is the reason a lot of businesses in the US move out of the country.

BMD004

All the debats I have seen have always been a liberal and a "libertarian" who is arguing for the conservative side. They should just call themselves what they are, republicans.

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

Libertarianism is for republicans who are too afraid to call themselves a republican.

taj7575

A good friend of mine is a libertarian, who makes fun of the conservative candidates for their silly policies as much as the liberal candidates. Oh, and not to mention, he hates everything about the GOP.

So then he's a moderate?

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]cant say i have not done it before..... :(airshocker

I'm bored waiting for The Witcher 2 to finish downloading. :cry:

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

Libertarianism is for republicans who are too afraid to call themselves a republican.

taj7575

A good friend of mine is a libertarian, who makes fun of the conservative candidates for their silly policies as much as the liberal candidates. Oh, and not to mention, he hates everything about the GOP.

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

Libertarianism is for republicans who are too afraid to call themselves a republican.

Hatiko

A good friend of mine is a libertarian, who makes fun of the conservative candidates for their silly policies as much as the liberal candidates. Oh, and not to mention, he hates everything about the GOP.

So then he's a moderate?

No, he considers himself a libertarian, AKA his political views are more economy focused (free-market, laissez-faire views) with social freedoms.

[QUOTE="SoBaus"]

glad you brought up china... would you like to know why they are rapidly growing? Because their middle cIass is growing... and the US middle cIass is shrinking.... so all those top 1% tax break US billionaires, when they are looking for a ripe economy to invest their money... they invest in china, where the middle cIass is growing and not the US where the middle cIass average salary is declining.

thats why giving tax breaks to the top 1% has the very bottom of the barrel in terms of US GDP growth.

Saturos3091

so you think we should model ourselves after china? this is the problem we all come back to... is there is no functional libertarian model, its a pipe dream. But china has WAAAAY more government regulation than the US.

and you honestly might be right, but you also have no proof... and no examples to backup that theory. Its like watching 5 guys try to jump the grand canyon and they all meet a fiery death... but its gonnna work when we try... just cause we are feeling totally stoked. Such bad reasoning.

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

Libertarianism is for republicans who are too afraid to call themselves a republican.

surrealnumber5

A good friend of mine is a libertarian, who makes fun of the conservative candidates for their silly policies as much as the liberal candidates. Oh, and not to mention, he hates everything about the GOP.

Exactly. But in pure libertarian fashion, his number one hate will of course be the federal reserve :lol:

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"][QUOTE="taj7575"]

A good friend of mine is a libertarian, who makes fun of the conservative candidates for their silly policies as much as the liberal candidates. Oh, and not to mention, he hates everything about the GOP.

taj7575

Exactly. But in pure libertarian fashion, his number one hate will of course be the federal reserve :lol:

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

A good friend of mine is a libertarian, who makes fun of the conservative candidates for their silly policies as much as the liberal candidates. Oh, and not to mention, he hates everything about the GOP.

taj7575

So then he's a moderate?

No, he considers himself a libertarian, AKA his political views are more economy focused (free-market, laissez-faire views) with social freedoms.

OK. It's understandable then.

Dude me too, pretty dumb of steam to not allow preload for a 17 gig game. And uh...yeah. Governments. and stuff. Totally on topic.Ace6301

Not one of Steam's best ideas. How far are you? I'm at 94%.

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

So then he's a moderate?

Hatiko

No, he considers himself a libertarian, AKA his political views are more economy focused (free-market, laissez-faire views) with social freedoms.

OK. It's understandable then.

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"] These statements are so utterly wrong that it blows my mind. A lot of businesses move out of the country because other countries have ridiculous labor rights laws and thus cheap labor is easy to have. The cheaper your labor, the greater your profits; therefore, many businesses prefer going to these countries for jobs. Unless you have a problem with workers' rights and want us to turn to China for tips on this matter, then you can't possibly blame the government on business outsourcing. As for the 2008 financial crisis, :lol:. Had the market been more regulated, the financial crisis may not have happened; what is unarguable is that government interference is what kept the crisis from escalating into the second Great Depression (another event deregulation caused).Theokhoth

First, I'll address the issue that you say that businesses don't leave because of taxes.

First, here is a 60 minutes report that was done about two months ago about how businesses go overseas to find a tax-haven so that they don't have to pay U.S. taxes:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/25/60minutes/main20046867.shtml

If you don't think that a LOT of businesses move to other countries, then I don't know what to tell you other than that you are ignorant about this particular issue.

Now, about the financial crisis. You are trying to treat symptoms instead of the root cause. The #1 main cause of the whole economic mess is Alan Greenspan and the Fed lowering the interest rates to almost nothing. This is what gave incentive for all of the BS that went on with the lending.

All the debats I have seen have always been a liberal and a "libertarian" who is arguing for the conservative side. They should just call themselves what they are, republicans.

Hatiko

so you think we should model ourselves after china? this is the problem we all come back to... is there is no functional libertarian model, its a pipe dream. But china has WAAAAY more government regulation than the US.

and you honestly might be right, but you also have no proof... and no examples to backup that theory. Its like watching 5 guys try to jump the grand canyon and they all meet a fiery death... but its gonnna work when we try... just cause we are feeling totally stoked. Such bad reasoning.

SoBaus