What's wrong with Sharia?

[QUOTE="zAhMaDz"]

I'm sure millions Christians, Jews, athiests, etc. would disagree with me too. What's your point? No country is a good representation of what Islam represents. Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. all fuse their own cultural beliefs and create their own version of Islam, which is not the same Islam in the Quran. Once again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the reason why most Muslim nations seem to have sexist laws is because of the influence of their cultural history (long, before Islam), rather than Islam itself.

HoolaHoopMan

And that cultural history is predominately influenced by Islam. Cultures are shaped, birthed, and evolve from the beliefs and customs of the people, and people's customs and beliefs are influenced by their religion.

You cannot separate the two completely.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

That is sexist? :?

It commands both genders to abstain from lustful thinking, women obviously having the burden to wear conservative clothing, oh, you can't see women's hair and revealing clothes, the horror. Which, by the way, reaffirms Islam's stance on AA and special privileges for women in other respects.

Victorious_Fize

Its sexist in the framswork from which I was arguing, that people use those verses in order to enact dress codes. I purposely picked something easy and simple, verses that call for women to cover up. At its base, requiring women to dress a certain way (and in many cases mandating it by law) is definately sexist.

Such as a laundry list of Muslim countries. Most Muslim countries have some sort of law on the books pertaining to a specific dress code for women, hence we've come full circle: Inequality.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

[QUOTE="zAhMaDz"]

I'm sure millions Christians, Jews, athiests, etc. would disagree with me too. What's your point? No country is a good representation of what Islam represents. Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. all fuse their own cultural beliefs and create their own version of Islam, which is not the same Islam in the Quran. Once again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the reason why most Muslim nations seem to have sexist laws is because of the influence of their cultural history (long, before Islam), rather than Islam itself.

Nayef_shroof

And that cultural history is predominately influenced by Islam. Cultures are shaped, birthed, and evolve from the beliefs and customs of the people, and people's customs and beliefs are influenced by their religion.

You cannot separate the two completely.

[QUOTE="zAhMaDz"]

I'm sure millions Christians, Jews, athiests, etc. would disagree with me too. What's your point? No country is a good representation of what Islam represents. Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. all fuse their own cultural beliefs and create their own version of Islam, which is not the same Islam in the Quran. Once again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the reason why most Muslim nations seem to have sexist laws is because of the influence of their cultural history (long, before Islam), rather than Islam itself.

And that cultural history is predominately influenced by Islam. Cultures are shaped, birthed, and evolve from the beliefs and customs of the people, and people's customs and beliefs are influenced by their religion.

You cannot separate the two completely.

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="peter1191"] Quick rebuttal: there is no such thing as "punishable by death" in Christianity. Sure the Jews in the times of ancient Israel had laws to that effect, but Christians do not execute punishment via killing (or at least should not). Although I am not a catholic, I know catholics in the USA oppose abortion and capital punishment and all things related to humans killing or terminating other humans. Homosexuality, while frowned upon by the majority of the christian community, is not punishable by death.peter1191

Welcome to third world countries Peter. You should see India or China, I'm sure you'll be in for a real treat.

Listen, in the USA there is separation of church and state. What the state does cannot be blamed on the church (aka christians) and vice versa. Furthermore there is a danger in defining a country according to its predominate religious tradition, then applying that generalization to all people of that religion in other countries. I know the USA has done horrific things, but this has nothing to do with christianity.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="Harisemo"]

That is sexist by western standards. Women should be allowed to be naked if they wish

Victorious_Fize

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]Yes, is it wrong?Victorious_Fize

That was my point. Interpretations are up for debate.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

Its sexist in the framswork from which I was arguing, that people use those verses in order to enact dress codes. I purposely picked something easy and simple, verses that call for women to cover up. At its base, requiring women to dress a certain way (and in many cases mandating it by law) is definately sexist.

HoolaHoopMan

Such as a laundry list of Muslim countries. Most Muslim countries have some sort of law on the books pertaining to a specific dress code for women, hence we've come full circle: Inequality.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] Using Saudi Arabias interpretation, women should be fully clothed to the max. Not sexist at all.DroidPhysX

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

And yes, I will dismiss them if they are not valid or taken out of context. I've seen that a few times.

HoolaHoopMan

Oh how convenient. How about something easy and simple, perhaps laws pertaining to dress codes?

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity: this will be most conducive to their purity - (and,) verily, God is aware of all that they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms beyond what may be apparent thereof; hence let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms.(24:30-31)"

Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Quran33:58–59)

2 simple verses that many countries, cities, persons etc use to justify the requirement of the hijab or similar garment.

Edit: Are they right in their interpretation? Maybe, maybe not. The Quran is however a source that is commonly used in Muslim societies to create and shape law.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] Umm, no? Where did you hear that? You should visit Jeddah...Victorious_Fize

[QUOTE="Nayef_shroof"][QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

And that cultural history is predominately influenced by Islam. Cultures are shaped, birthed, and evolve from the beliefs and customs of the people, and people's customs and beliefs are influenced by their religion.

You cannot separate the two completely.

Frame_Dragger

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

That was my point. Interpretations are up for debate.

LJS9502_basic

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill You live in America, I live in a third world country that your America has a national interest in, but doesn't for Somalia and Southern Sudan, and above so, Uganda.

Welcome to third world countries Peter. You should see India or China, I'm sure you'll be in for a real treat.Victorious_Fize

I know that too... but I am using the example of people saying OTHERWISE, in other words, I utilized their tactics to show them the err. I'm sorry if I lumped you in with all these active posts. :P I also just tried to point a longstanding issue that most American have no real exposure to third world countries, so they're astonished by some of the behavior found in the Middle East (which is REALLY one of the least terrifying). Naturally, they become filled with anger, which gets out of hand, that's why people should hope/pray for those that wrong and oppressed instead of focusing on the oppressor and the cause of the issue.Victorius_Fize

Actually you're applying a double standard in which you demand that we look at Islam the religion, not how a country practices it. THEN you turn around and do the same thing, but with Christianity and Uganda. You've also made a statement about gay rights that you're not for or against them... which is like saying you both do and do not have a penny. There's more, but.... well... it's all here in the thread, you just keep going for those who are least able to refute your, "logic".

Meanwhile Nayef_Shroof thinks that only Iran and Saudi Arabia have unequal rights, and NONE of you (literally everyone on the topic, for or against) seems to understand that giving people privelages on one hand, and restrictions on the other is STILL sexist. Determining treatment of a person based on their gender, favorably or unfavorably is sexist. Besides, as plenty of women here in teh USA will tell you, sometimes it's not so great being "special", or being protected... if, for example, they want to fight on the front lines in our military.

Finally, the OP posted a question that has been answsered directly, and by the process of this thread; What's wrong with Sharia? Answer: It mixes the law of the state with religion, and that allows for corruption of both, bending both, and standards based on culture to rule that of reason and law. TO quote myself:

...THE problem with Sharia, as pointed out by others; it mixes religion with the law of the land. Christianity and Judaism both have men ruling women, but neither come packaged wtih a legal framework to take that from the church or synagogue to the streets. Sharia is that conduit through which the bickerings of scholars, the vagueries of culture and the religion itself can move beyond the stage of INFLUENCING a culture, to ruling it. That, is the problem with Sharia. Same with rights for gay people, and other elements of personal expression; it's not JUST women getting the short end of the stick here.Frame_Dragger

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] You're right actually. Women are never covered in saudi arabia. Who was I kidding?

DroidPhysX

"Using Saudi Arabias interpretation, women should be fully clothed to the max."

Max, MAX. Maximum??? :P

What else fully covers their bodies in Saudi Arabia otherwise? :?

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] You said to the max. Which means an Abaya and Burqa. :|Victorious_Fize

"Using Saudi Arabias interpretation, women should be fully clothed to the max."

Max, MAX. Maximum??? :P

What else fully covers their bodies in Saudi Arabia otherwise? :?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] Homosexuality is a crime that can be punishable by death in its greatest extent in all three religions. What's to debate about that?Nayef_shroof

[QUOTE="Nayef_shroof"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Woah. Homosexuality is not punished by death in Christianity.:|Victorious_Fize

I have some friends that lived in Istanbul for a few years. They say the same about the women and they loved the city. HoolaHoopMan

I was in Incirlik AFB for a couple months before a deployment and we used to get our supervisors to sign out vans so we could all go to this one mall in Adana. Was very good times.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] Sorry, i forgot my mind reading capabilities at home. May I borrow yours?DroidPhysX

"Using Saudi Arabias interpretation, women should be fully clothed to the max."

Max, MAX. Maximum??? :P

What else fully covers their bodies in Saudi Arabia otherwise? :?

www.thefreedictionary.com/maximum

Sorry, i forgot my mind reading capabilities at home. May I borrow yours?DroidPhysX

"Using Saudi Arabias interpretation, women should be fully clothed to the max."

Max, MAX. Maximum??? :P

What else fully covers their bodies in Saudi Arabia otherwise? :?

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]I have some friends that lived in Istanbul for a few years. They say the same about the women and they loved the city. airshocker

I was in Incirlik AFB for a couple months before a deployment and we used to get our supervisors to sign out vans so we could all go to this one mall in Adana. Was very good times.

It allows for Women to be treated like dirt and gives them little to no rights.

Laws are very harsh for small maters

It is TERRIBLE

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

"Using Saudi Arabias interpretation, women should be fully clothed to the max."

Max, MAX. Maximum??? :P

What else fully covers their bodies in Saudi Arabia otherwise? :?

Victorious_Fize

www.thefreedictionary.com/maximum

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="Nayef_shroof"] Victorious Fize, please elaborate on some points as you are unintentionally misleading in this regarding. Anyways, if you are a homosexual, it is fine as long as you dont display homosexual acts blatantly in public, and if you do, you will be punished

LJS9502_basic

Really? I always thought it does? I mean, historically, it did, and I hear that Christianity doesn't cancel the old testament of the Jews, but mostly this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

I'm pretty sure they would not go that far had they not interpreted things to the extreme.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] Apparently that's your interpretation. Funny, what did i see about interpretations earlier?DroidPhysX

www.thefreedictionary.com/maximum

Seeing muslims vigoursly defend sharia law simply because.....well they're muslim gives me this reaciton:

There's a time to stop rubber stamping policies because you're a part of the same religion.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] On homosexuality? Well, I am referring when people take it to the extreme. Like some said, interpretations are always there, from liberal, to moderate, to extreme. I took it to the extreme because I'm pwetty sure that that is what will someone bringing gay rights in Islam will do, so I didn't bother to scale as he go.Victorious_Fize

Really? I always thought it does? I mean, historically, it did, and I hear that Christianity doesn't cancel the old testament of the Jews, but mostly this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

I'm pretty sure they would not go that far had they not interpreted things to the extreme.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] On homosexuality? Well, I am referring when people take it to the extreme. Like some said, interpretations are always there, from liberal, to moderate, to extreme. I took it to the extreme because I'm pwetty sure that that is what will someone bringing gay rights in Islam will do, so I didn't bother to scale as he go.Victorious_Fize

Really? I always thought it does? I mean, historically, it did, and I hear that Christianity doesn't cancel the old testament of the Jews, but mostly this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

I'm pretty sure they would not go that far had they not interpreted things to the extreme.

Seeing muslims vigoursly defend sharia law simply because.....well they're muslim gives me this reaciton:

There's a time to stop rubber stamping policies because you're a part of the same religion.

DroidPhysX

What is that? Are you deflecting??? xD

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]You made an incorrect statement though you use hyperbole to mask said statement.Frame_Dragger

Really? I always thought it does? I mean, historically, it did, and I hear that Christianity doesn't cancel the old testament of the Jews, but mostly this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

I'm pretty sure they would not go that far had they not interpreted things to the extreme.

wat? not my fault you didn't start this debate with me... and I'm pretty sure you're correct about your vision... now it's a lot less exciting...

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

Seeing muslims vigoursly defend sharia law simply because.....well they're muslim gives me this reaciton:

There's a time to stop rubber stamping policies because you're a part of the same religion.

What is that? Are you deflecting??? xD

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

www.thefreedictionary.com/maximum

Noun: The greatest or highest amount possible or attained.http://img.allvoices.com/thumbs/image/609/480/67128138-saudi-women.jpgthat's max in Saudi Arabia. :)Victorious_Fize

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

Seeing muslims vigoursly defend sharia law simply because.....well they're muslim gives me this reaciton:

There's a time to stop rubber stamping policies because you're a part of the same religion.

Victorious_Fize

What is that? Are you deflecting??? xD

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]You made an incorrect statement though you use hyperbole to mask said statement.LJS9502_basic

Really? I always thought it does? I mean, historically, it did, and I hear that Christianity doesn't cancel the old testament of the Jews, but mostly this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

I'm pretty sure they would not go that far had they not interpreted things to the extreme.

Exactly! So then why is Saudi Arabia a spokesman for Islam or Sharia? Because that's what I was arguing about here...

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]You made an incorrect statement though you use hyperbole to mask said statement.LJS9502_basic

Really? I always thought it does? I mean, historically, it did, and I hear that Christianity doesn't cancel the old testament of the Jews, but mostly this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

I'm pretty sure they would not go that far had they not interpreted things to the extreme.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

Seeing muslims vigoursly defend sharia law simply because.....well they're muslim gives me this reaciton:

There's a time to stop rubber stamping policies because you're a part of the same religion.

DroidPhysX

What is that? Are you deflecting??? xD

>facepalms instead of explaining, and even the post that asked you to explain didn't have any real answer

How is that not deflecting? I thought you knew how it works since you used it all over the place... :P

Uganda is not a spokesman for anything. Christianity does not condone death for homosexuality. What individuals might do is not the fault of the message. If you want to show me Christianity's stance on homosexuality....you'd have to use the NT. The OT is merely the companion book to the NT because from the Jewish people came Jesus. However, Christians do NOT follow Jewish law.LJS9502_basic

Exactly! So then why is Saudi Arabia a spokesman for Islam or Sharia? Because that's what I was arguing about here...Victorious_Fize

How do you keep a straight face saying that after using Uganda twice as the model for Christian punishments?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this is how most people view Sharia Law. Sharia Law = Islamic Law Saudi Arabia = Islamic State therefore Saudi Law = Sharia LawCrunchy_Nuts

You mean the way that Victorious_Fize has gone:
Uganda = Christian Country
Uganda = Killing Gay People

therefore

Ugandan Pracice = Christian Practice?

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

What is that? Are you deflecting??? xD

Victorious_Fize

>facepalms instead of explaining, and even the post that asked you to explain didn't have any real answer

How is that not deflecting? I thought you knew how it works since you used it all over the place... :P

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

Really? I always thought it does? I mean, historically, it did, and I hear that Christianity doesn't cancel the old testament of the Jews, but mostly this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

I'm pretty sure they would not go that far had they not interpreted things to the extreme.

Victorious_Fize

Exactly! So then why is Saudi Arabia a spokesman for Islam or Sharia? Because that's what I was arguing about here...

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[quote="Victorious_Fize"]Exactly! So then why is Saudi Arabia a spokesman for Islam or Sharia? Because that's what I was arguing about here...Frame_Dragger

How do you keep a straight face saying that after using Uganda twice as the model for Christian punishments?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this is how most people view Sharia Law. Sharia Law = Islamic Law Saudi Arabia = Islamic State therefore Saudi Law = Sharia LawCrunchy_Nuts

You mean the way that Victorious_Fize has gone:
Uganda = Christian Country
Uganda = Killing Gay People

therefore

Ugandan Pracice = Christian Practice?

You should read about this wonderful story, it tells a lot about how some people use methods they do not approve of to bring a point.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

Really? I always thought it does? I mean, historically, it did, and I hear that Christianity doesn't cancel the old testament of the Jews, but mostly this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

I'm pretty sure they would not go that far had they not interpreted things to the extreme.

peter1191

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"]Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this is how most people view Sharia Law. Sharia Law = Islamic Law Saudi Arabia = Islamic State therefore Saudi Law = Sharia LawFrame_Dragger

You mean the way that Victorious_Fize has gone:
Uganda = Christian Country
Uganda = Killing Gay People

therefore

Ugandan Pracice = Christian Practice?

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] What on gods green earth are you talking about?

DroidPhysX

>facepalms instead of explaining, and even the post that asked you to explain didn't have any real answer

How is that not deflecting? I thought you knew how it works since you used it all over the place... :P

A man gotta have his shield here. :P

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Uganda is not a spokesman for anything. Christianity does not condone death for homosexuality. What individuals might do is not the fault of the message. If you want to show me Christianity's stance on homosexuality....you'd have to use the NT. The OT is merely the companion book to the NT because from the Jewish people came Jesus. However, Christians do NOT follow Jewish law.LJS9502_basic

Exactly! So then why is Saudi Arabia a spokesman for Islam or Sharia? Because that's what I was arguing about here...

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

How do you keep a straight face saying that after using Uganda twice as the model for Christian punishments?

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"]Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this is how most people view Sharia Law. Sharia Law = Islamic Law Saudi Arabia = Islamic State therefore Saudi Law = Sharia LawVictorious_Fize

You mean the way that Victorious_Fize has gone:
Uganda = Christian Country
Uganda = Killing Gay People

therefore

Ugandan Pracice = Christian Practice?

You should read about this wonderful story, it tells a lot about how some people use methods they do not approve of to bring a point.

No... that's a satirical illustration of a belief, your'e engaged in fallacy, hypocritical standards of debate, and generally failing to make your point. Biiiiiig difference. I like the idea of just writing off the gaping holes and contradictions in one's arguments as being satire.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Uganda is not a spokesman for anything. Christianity does not condone death for homosexuality. What individuals might do is not the fault of the message. If you want to show me Christianity's stance on homosexuality....you'd have to use the NT. The OT is merely the companion book to the NT because from the Jewish people came Jesus. However, Christians do NOT follow Jewish law.LJS9502_basic

Exactly! So then why is Saudi Arabia a spokesman for Islam or Sharia? Because that's what I was arguing about here...

No, but how does that counter my point?

Again:

Saudi Arabia: does everything to maintain power.

Iran: does everything for Shia prevalence.

Both obviously seek a different interest above all else, and are a horrible example of everything relating to Islam.