What's your position on leaving a tip?

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] Because a lot of things in life are all about how you treat people You have this principle that you are against leaving a tip...which is fine, having principles is a good thing (a great thing actually) But principles SHOULD NEVER GET IN THE WAY of treating people the right way Right or wrong, this is how the situation is set up servers are paid less than min. wage...they depend on the kindness of strangers to live So you stand by your principles at the cost of treating people badly That is why i commented that you probably do not have many friends At the end of the day, it should be more about how you treat your fellow man than your principles If we all followed this, the world would be a lot better placerawsavon

If they are paid less that minimum they should take it up with the government or a union or something, I don't understand how I'm treating him wrongly in the slighest way, I'm not being rude, I'm not causing him strain but yet they expect me to pay them for doing thier jobs? How is that fair that this is expected of me and is looked down upon if you don't do it? Why should I shell out extra money just because someone is expecting me to? I understand that thier job is obviously one of the bottom feeders in terms of pay,but more than anything that should be motivation for them to get thier life in order.

I feel nothing when I leave, I'll either feel content if the food was good enough or I'll be slightly upset if it wasn't worth it. Look you are talking to a guy whose house has burned down twice and no one beyond family and my very close friends did anything to help me, don't lecture me about what people do to make a difference when no one helped me when I was down. I don't care plain and simple, they are just another face in the cruel world, and I should not be obligated to pay anyone anything for doing thier job.

I tip 15 to 20%.

I feel nothing when I leave, I'll either feel content if the food was good enough or I'll be slightly upset if it wasn't worth it. Look you are talking to a guy whose house has burned down twice and no one beyond family and my very close friends did anything to help me, don't lecture me about what people do to make a difference when no one helped me when I was down. I don't care plain and simple, they are just another face in the cruel world, and I should not be obligated to pay anyone anything for doing thier job.

Espada12

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Nope. Tipping is expected. Everyone knows this, and that's how restaurants can get away with paying their waiters $3 an hour. The fact that they don't put a specific amount on your bill does not in any way mean that you aren't supposed to tip.

MrGeezer

If they want tipping then why don't they do something with their lives and get a better job.

Something tells me that you aren't doing much better, if you can't even afford to tip.

Seeing as I'm 17 and not on my career yet, obviously. :| I can afford it but why don't they get a better job anyway? They get paid to take orders and such, should I get paid extra for scanning someones grocery?

but why don't they get a better job anyway?CBR600-RR

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

If they are paid less that minimum they should take it up with the government or a union or something, I don't understand how I'm treating him wrongly in the slighest way, I'm not being rude, I'm not causing him strain but yet they expect me to pay them for doing thier jobs? How is that fair that this is expected of me and is looked down upon if you don't do it? Why should I shell out extra money just because someone is expecting me to? I understand that thier job is obviously one of the bottom feeders in terms of pay,but more than anything that should be motivation for them to get thier life in order.

I feel nothing when I leave, I'll either feel content if the food was good enough or I'll be slightly upset if it wasn't worth it. Look you are talking to a guy whose house has burned down twice and no one beyond family and my very close friends did anything to help me, don't lecture me about what people do to make a difference when no one helped me when I was down. I don't care plain and simple, they are just another face in the cruel world, and I should not be obligated to pay anyone anything for doing thier job.

Wonder Hangers!!! I can't think of another 9.

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]but why don't they get a better job anyway?andyboiii

They still don't need to be paid extra, I bet cleaners get paid less and do more work than waiters.

If the bill has the tip already listed on it, then I pay that amount. Other than that, good service generally gets more than very bad service.

I always tip and usually I'm pretty generous despite being relatively broke myself as I don't eat out too often anymore and what's a couple of extra bills to me compared to a shift's worth of extra bills for them? I've only stiffed a server once but that was due to exceptionally bad service. I'm fairly forgiving of mistakes especially when I can see that they're are doing their best to make reparations so I don't follow any strict guidelines and I tend to tip around 20%.

The industry gives waitors minimum wage because they are relying on the fact that people tip you. Therefore it's considerate that you tip.

A few last comments, because we are just going in circles now 1. Don't talk to me about crappy lives...you have no idea...life is what you make out of it...if that is the wrost you got, I have you beat 10 fold 2. So because you got dealt a bad hand, you do the same -i got dealt a bad hand too, but that just makes me want to lessen the load on others even more (I know how bad it can be) -you know too, why not help if you can 3. so I was accurate when I jokingly commented on your lack of friends -do you think that is beacuse life dealt you a bad hand or is it because of your attituderawsavon

Exactly, life is what we make out of it and they should try to make it better for themselves, I had to, I don't care about your life, but I asked you not to lecture about anything when I haven't had the best either, and again I have 9 friends I told you this already, I don't consider people I just know or acquitances to be friends, they are just people I know, the word friend is used way too loosely by people, and let me tell you why I don't help because if the roles were reversed the average person wouldn't help you. I've seen it time and time again, lots of bad experiences can change your outlook on things. I suppose you are correct though, I've become very very jaded due to my life experiences, I've had quite a few people stab me in the back and I'm not very trusting due to it. I assume everyone is out to get something from me off the get go.

I think its completely optional depending on my mood, if the service was really good and I feel that the waiter/waitress deserves it, and how my finances are in the specific month. :P And my finances are awful most of the times so.... :P

0% for horrible service 5% for bad service 10% for below average service 15% for average service 20% for good serviceFragStains

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

A few last comments, because we are just going in circles now 1. Don't talk to me about crappy lives...you have no idea...life is what you make out of it...if that is the wrost you got, I have you beat 10 fold 2. So because you got dealt a bad hand, you do the same -i got dealt a bad hand too, but that just makes me want to lessen the load on others even more (I know how bad it can be) -you know too, why not help if you can 3. so I was accurate when I jokingly commented on your lack of friends -do you think that is beacuse life dealt you a bad hand or is it because of your attitude

Exactly, life is what we make out of it and they should try to make it better for themselves, I had to, I don't care about your life, but I asked you not to lecture about anything when I haven't had the best either, and again I have 9 friends I told you this already, I don't consider people I just know or acquitances to be friends, they are just people I know, the word friend is used way too loosely by people, and let me tell you why I don't help because if the roles were reversed the average person wouldn't help you. I've seen it time and time again, lots of bad experiences can change your outlook on things. I suppose you are correct though, I've become very very jaded due to my life experiences, I've had quite a few people stab me in the back and I'm not very trusting due to it. I assume everyone is out to get something from me off the get go.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Nope. Tipping is expected. Everyone knows this, and that's how restaurants can get away with paying their waiters $3 an hour. The fact that they don't put a specific amount on your bill does not in any way mean that you aren't supposed to tip.

CBR600-RR

If they want tipping then why don't they do something with their lives and get a better job.

wow I really hope that you're just trolling if not you are a terrible person. Waiting on tables can be a good job and they end up making decent amounts of money (all from tips). this isn't the case in the chain restaurants like your Applebees, Country Dinners, etc... It doesn't seem like you frequent places that are nicer than that. If so it is not uncommon for them to refuse you service the next time you come in and visit. To whoever said before that a restaurant cannot do this, in america they legally can deny service to whomever they want as long as they are not discriminating.

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Nope. Tipping is expected. Everyone knows this, and that's how restaurants can get away with paying their waiters $3 an hour. The fact that they don't put a specific amount on your bill does not in any way mean that you aren't supposed to tip.

bigdrew172

If they want tipping then why don't they do something with their lives and get a better job.

wow I really hope that you're just trolling if not you are a terrible person. Waiting on tables can be a good job and they end up making decent amounts of money (all from tips). this isn't the case in the chain restaurants like your Applebees, Country Dinners, etc... It doesn't seem like you frequent places that are nicer than that. If so it is not uncommon for them to refuse you service the next time you come in and visit. To whoever said before that a restaurant cannot do this, in america they legally can deny service to whomever they want as long as they are not discriminating.

15%

I don't have to worry about tips in Japan, but when I'm home in America I'll always tip anywhere from 15-20 percent. Even if the service is sort of not good, I'm a generous (and perhaps idiotic) man.

[QUOTE="shaunk89"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

If you ask for anything, then you're asking for service. Want an extra drink? You're asking for service. Want some extra napkins? You're asking for service. It is an undeniable FACT that the very act of going into the restaurant and getting a table is equal to seeking out his service. Because before you ever walk in the door, you know what kinds of services will be performed and you know that he won't be compensated for his work unless you pay him directly.

There is absolutely no getting around that. You know the nature of the service, and you know that they are compensated for their work in tips. If you have a problem with how that works, then you are free to not dine at that restaurant. But you dine there anyway, knowing in advance that you're getting someone to work for you, and knowing in advance that when the job is done, you're going to walk out without paying them. And that is indefensible. There's just no excuse.

You get a service, you pay for it. That's how things work. If you don't like how the payment system is set up, then you're free not to use the facilities. But once you agree to use the facilities, knowing full-well how the payment system is set up, then you are expected to pay for the service that YOU requested.

MrGeezer

This would be true if serving staff were not paid by the restaurants...but they are, so it's entirely wrong. You pay them via what you pay for your food, which goes to the restaurant, who pay the staff. You only tip because they've done a good job and you'd like to show your appreciation, you don't have to give them anything if you dont want.

Personally, i tend to tip relatively generously, but not as much as you guys, it seems. Almost every restaurant in the UK charges "service charge" at the end of the bill, and it's usally quite a lot, at least 12%, so i rarely pay more unless the service/staff are amazing. That said, sometimes the service sucks and i get annoyed at being charged for it, so i refuse to pay the additional 12%

One time though, I was in a restaurant and the service was horrific. We waited ages, our food came at different times (ie, more than an hour apart), when it arrived, some was cold...etc etc. So instead of not leaving a tip, which might have implied we forgot/just don't tip...we left a tip of like a penny...just to make sure they know how annoyed we were :D

You are absolutely wrong. Period. Most restaurants with wait-staff pay their waiters WELL below minimum wage. The price of food and drinks does NOT adequately compensate the waiters for their work, and the only way for them to be adequately compensate them through wages would be to significantly RAISE the price of the food and drinks.

And guess what? If that were to happen, then the customers are STILL paying for the waiters to work, only now it's being channeled through a middle-man.

If you live in the US or something, then I can't really comment. But I imagine it is legally impossible to pay anyone below minimum wage, since to allow that would entirely defeat the purpose of a minimum wage. Here in the UK, anyone that systematically pays below minimum wage is open to legal action, both civil and criminal (depending on the scale of the offence). That's the point of minimum wage....you have to pay it, or the State jumps up and down on you until you die.

Besides which, if you are getting crap wages, then you are free to refuse those terms of employment and go elsewhere, and then your employer can either find someone willing to work for the low wages, or raise the wages. It's basic economics. I have no sympathy whatsoever, since our entire capitalist system would crumble if there were no people willing to do crummy jobs for poor wages.

Back to tipping, I will tip if I feel the server deserves it, but I am the one who decides, since it is MY money, and I can do whatever the hell I want to with it. There is nothing on earth that can oblige you to pay a tip of any kind. Even the ones listed on bills can be refused. They are an "optional gratuity". THe restaurant has no power whatsoever to FORCE you to pay for them in the same way it has the power to force you to pay for your actual food.

Tip something good and don't worry about percentages.

10-15% if the service was great.
I generally do not like to tip, I think its one of the most ridiculous things we do.

I actually work in a resteraunt as a prep cook and make tips, and I still feel that customers shouldn't feel obligated to tip us.

The waiters and waitresses here make $100 dollars a day just in tips, and are being paid $8 an hour on top of this.

Can the owner of the resteraunt afford to pay his workers more? Yes, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to purchase himself a Ferarri, and his wife a Rolls Royce.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]

If they want tipping then why don't they do something with their lives and get a better job.

CBR600-RR

Something tells me that you aren't doing much better, if you can't even afford to tip.

Seeing as I'm 17 and not on my career yet, obviously. :| I can afford it but why don't they get a better job anyway? They get paid to take orders and such, should I get paid extra for scanning someones grocery?

So let's get this straight...

1) You seek out a service.

2) You have that service performed for you.

3) You can afford to pay for that service.

4) You then refuse to pay, because you think the people performing that service are pieces of ****.

That's even WORSE than if you didn't tip because you're broke.

See, you have some people who treat the garbage man or the plumber like ****. They're all like, "oh, this person sucks because he works with feces". And then they treat him like some kind of subhuman. But then the second their toilet explodes, they try to butter him up.

This kind of elitism is utter BS, because it falls apart the second that people need the service. If you think that what plumbers do is so easy, you're free to fix your own pipes and shovel up your own feces. If the garbage man is a worthless piece of garbage, then try going three weeks without him being there to haul away your trash. If servers and bartenders are so worthless, then why don't you fix your own damn drinks? Why don't you dine in and clean up after yourself, fill your own drinks, make your own salad, and wait on yourself?

People go to these kinds of restaurants for two reasons: the food, and the service. They WANT the food and the service, they then just opt out when it comes down to pay simply because they don't have to.

It's the exact same mentality that goes into music/movie/videogame piracy. People WANT what is provided to them. That being the service/music/movie. But they see a way to get it without paying for it (not tipping, downloading illegally), and that's what they do. And just like with piracy, it's a load of horse****. If the waiter's work isn't worth paying for, then why are you going to restaurants seeking out service from a waiter? If an album isn't worth paying for, then why keep it on your hard drive?

Those people are 100% full of crap. Bottom line, they just plain don't want to pay for what they want, and they don't care how many people they screw over in the process that is ALL there is to it.

And the guy who scans your grocery actually gets PAID for it. That makes this absolutely different than the waiter. Because when the waiter busts his ass to serve you, and then you don't give him a single penny, he was working for FREE. That's a COMPLETELY different scenario than the cashier. The cashier actually gets PAID to serve you, the waiter's compensation for serving you depends almost entirely on tips. You know this, we've already established that you seek out the service and are capable of paying for the service, yet you have no problem screwing someone over just because no one FORCES you to pay.

Which brings up a question. How many of you anti-tip people announce right from the start that you're not gonna tip? If there's nothing wrong with not tipping, then why wait until you get the check? Why not announce that you're not going to tip right when the waiter introduces himself? When you see a waiter running around busting his ass trying to serve you, do you stop him and point out to him that he's not going to get a tip regardless of what he does? How many of you anti-tip people do THIS? I'm betting none of you.

And that's another reason why the anti-tip argument fails. People don't let on that they're not going to tip for one reason...that'd result in a drop in service. This PROVES that they KNOW that tips are compensation for service. This PROVES that they want the same exact service that normal people actually pay for. They do indeed want what they are SUPPOSED to be paying for, but they let the waiter bust his ass anyway and then silently walk out without leaving ****.

If there's nothing wrong with not tipping, then why not tell your waiter right from the start that he's not getting ****? The fact that people DON'T do this definitively proves that their reasons for not tipping are all a load of crap.

So let's get this straight...

1) You seek out a service.

2) You have that service performed for you.

3) You can afford to pay for that service.

4) You then refuse to pay, because you think the people performing that service are pieces of ****.

That's even WORSE than if you didn't tip because you're broke.

See, you have some people who treat the garbage man or the plumber like ****. They're all like, "oh, this person sucks because he works with feces". And then they treat him like some kind of subhuman. But then the second their toilet explodes, they try to butter him up.

This kind of elitism is utter BS, because it falls apart the second that people need the service. If you think that what plumbers do is so easy, you're free to fix your own pipes and shovel up your own feces. If the garbage man is a worthless piece of garbage, then try going three weeks without him being there to haul away your trash. If servers and bartenders are so worthless, then why don't you fix your own damn drinks? Why don't you dine in and clean up after yourself, fill your own drinks, make your own salad, and wait on yourself?

People go to these kinds of restaurants for two reasons: the food, and the service. They WANT the food and the service, they then just opt out when it comes down to pay simply because they don't have to.

It's the exact same mentality that goes into music/movie/videogame piracy. People WANT what is provided to them. That being the service/music/movie. But they see a way to get it without paying for it (not tipping, downloading illegally), and that's what they do. And just like with piracy, it's a load of horse****. If the waiter's work isn't worth paying for, then why are you going to restaurants seeking out service from a waiter? If an album isn't worth paying for, then why keep it on your hard drive?

Those people are 100% full of crap. Bottom line, they just plain don't want to pay for what they want, and they don't care how many people they screw over in the process that is ALL there is to it.

And the guy who scans your grocery actually gets PAID for it. That makes this absolutely different than the waiter. Because when the waiter busts his ass to serve you, and then you don't give him a single penny, he was working for FREE. That's a COMPLETELY different scenario than the cashier. The cashier actually gets PAID to serve you, the waiter's compensation for serving you depends almost entirely on tips. You know this, we've already established that you seek out the service and are capable of paying for the service, yet you have no problem screwing someone over just because no one FORCES you to pay.

Which brings up a question. How many of you anti-tip people announce right from the start that you're not gonna tip? If there's nothing wrong with not tipping, then why wait until you get the check? Why not announce that you're not going to tip right when the waiter introduces himself? When you see a waiter running around busting his ass trying to serve you, do you stop him and point out to him that he's not going to get a tip regardless of what he does? How many of you anti-tip people do THIS? I'm betting none of you.

And that's another reason why the anti-tip argument fails. People don't let on that they're not going to tip for one reason...that'd result in a drop in service. This PROVES that they KNOW that tips are compensation for service. This PROVES that they want the same exact service that normal people actually pay for. They do indeed want what they are SUPPOSED to be paying for, but they let the waiter bust his ass anyway and then silently walk out without leaving ****.

If there's nothing wrong with not tipping, then why not tell your waiter right from the start that he's not getting ****? The fact that people DON'T do this definitively proves that their reasons for not tipping are all a load of crap.

MrGeezer

The waiters / waitresses get a lower amount if they do not do a good job of serving me.

Everybody needs to watch the opening scene to Reservoir Dogs.

25% is my standard, it can fluctuate according to service though.Dark__Link

25%, seriously? What happens when you plop down $100 on an expensive meal, you seriously tip $25?

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

So let's get this straight...

1) You seek out a service.

2) You have that service performed for you.

3) You can afford to pay for that service.

4) You then refuse to pay, because you think the people performing that service are pieces of ****.

That's even WORSE than if you didn't tip because you're broke.

See, you have some people who treat the garbage man or the plumber like ****. They're all like, "oh, this person sucks because he works with feces". And then they treat him like some kind of subhuman. But then the second their toilet explodes, they try to butter him up.

This kind of elitism is utter BS, because it falls apart the second that people need the service. If you think that what plumbers do is so easy, you're free to fix your own pipes and shovel up your own feces. If the garbage man is a worthless piece of garbage, then try going three weeks without him being there to haul away your trash. If servers and bartenders are so worthless, then why don't you fix your own damn drinks? Why don't you dine in and clean up after yourself, fill your own drinks, make your own salad, and wait on yourself?

People go to these kinds of restaurants for two reasons: the food, and the service. They WANT the food and the service, they then just opt out when it comes down to pay simply because they don't have to.

It's the exact same mentality that goes into music/movie/videogame piracy. People WANT what is provided to them. That being the service/music/movie. But they see a way to get it without paying for it (not tipping, downloading illegally), and that's what they do. And just like with piracy, it's a load of horse****. If the waiter's work isn't worth paying for, then why are you going to restaurants seeking out service from a waiter? If an album isn't worth paying for, then why keep it on your hard drive?

Those people are 100% full of crap. Bottom line, they just plain don't want to pay for what they want, and they don't care how many people they screw over in the process that is ALL there is to it.

And the guy who scans your grocery actually gets PAID for it. That makes this absolutely different than the waiter. Because when the waiter busts his ass to serve you, and then you don't give him a single penny, he was working for FREE. That's a COMPLETELY different scenario than the cashier. The cashier actually gets PAID to serve you, the waiter's compensation for serving you depends almost entirely on tips. You know this, we've already established that you seek out the service and are capable of paying for the service, yet you have no problem screwing someone over just because no one FORCES you to pay.

Which brings up a question. How many of you anti-tip people announce right from the start that you're not gonna tip? If there's nothing wrong with not tipping, then why wait until you get the check? Why not announce that you're not going to tip right when the waiter introduces himself? When you see a waiter running around busting his ass trying to serve you, do you stop him and point out to him that he's not going to get a tip regardless of what he does? How many of you anti-tip people do THIS? I'm betting none of you.

And that's another reason why the anti-tip argument fails. People don't let on that they're not going to tip for one reason...that'd result in a drop in service. This PROVES that they KNOW that tips are compensation for service. This PROVES that they want the same exact service that normal people actually pay for. They do indeed want what they are SUPPOSED to be paying for, but they let the waiter bust his ass anyway and then silently walk out without leaving ****.

If there's nothing wrong with not tipping, then why not tell your waiter right from the start that he's not getting ****? The fact that people DON'T do this definitively proves that their reasons for not tipping are all a load of crap.

carrot-cake

You're expected to tip BECAUSE THE SERVICE IS NOT ACCOUNTED FOR IN THE BILL.

You KNOW this.

And the whole "the restaurant should pay, not me" argument is again, utter crap. Suppose a waiter is willing to put up with all of the crap (and they deal with a LOT of crap) because he's making $25 an hour.

THAT is what he is worth. THAT is what allows him to maintain his life**** If you're gonna do away with tips, that waiter is going to have to earn a comparable amount in wages.

Now...suppose that now this waiter is earning $3 an hour in wages. A fundamental rule is that if you want quality, most of the time you're gonna have to pay for it. This means that in order to keep the same level of service, that waiter is on average gonna have to be making somewhere close to $25 an hour. Otherwise, he goes and gets a job at Wal-Mart, where he makes money without working hard. You CAN'T cut this guy's wages in half, or he's gonna go work at a grocery store or a gas station.

So...establishing that quality costs money, and that quality workers are going to have to make close to the same amount of money in order to make it worth paying for the job, we have a problem. If we get rid of tips and raise this guy's wages from $3 an hour to $25 an hour, WHERE do you think that money is going to come from? Do you think there's a money tree growing behind the restaurant?

No, this money comes from raising the price of the FOOD. And guess what? If you raise the price of the FOOD enough to give the waiter a comparable amount of money, the customer is STILL paying for it. The customer will be paying just as much, probably even MORE.

Because firstly, now it's nonnegotiable. Now the food price is the food price. And if you get crappy service, the waiter might get fired, but you're STILL gonna be paying the amp-up food price and that money is gonna be going to that same waiter.

Secondly, waiters will tell you that sometimes they have to accept minimum wage. If it's a really slow night, and half of the wait staff only gets one table, they don't make **** in tips. If it's an outside section that gets closed due to rain, that waiter hangs around without getting a table. Then they eventually get sent home, without making crap in tips. The restaurant is legally obligated to make up their lack of tips by paying minimum wage. In all, the waiter basically doesn't work, gets kept around for a while, and goes home with minimum wage.

Now...guess what happens if that waiter's base wages are $20 an hour vs $3 an hour. The restaurant might be able to afford making waiters hang around with no tables for $7 an hour. But when waiters are getting paid $25 an hour, they'll get sent home ASAP. This means that when you go to the restaurant a little bit later, you aren't getting in. Because all the waiters got sent home, because the business was having to pay them $20 an hour to stand around doing nothing. That's bad for the restaurant, and that's bad for the CUSTOMER.

Furthermore, a set wage means that waiters make $20 regardless of WHAT THEY SELL. This means that if everyone comes in and buys the cheapest thing on the menu, the waiter is making JUST as much as if he'd sold the most expensive item on the menu. Now, go back to the part about how customers are STILL paying the waiter under the fair wage system. This means that having the waitstaff sell you hamburgers costs just as much as having the waitstaff sell you their $60 steak.

Now...think about that for a second. Suppose a hamburger costs eight bucks, and their best dish costs $60. And a dude who sells hamburgers all night long is going to make just as much as the person who sells the signature dish all night long.

Now...pretend you own the business, and think about that for a second. You're gonna have to do a cost analysis here. And it's very likely that you sell a lot more of the items at the bottom of the price range than you do the items at the top of the price range.

So...yeah. If a big part of your sales consist of items at the bottom of the price list, THAT is where you're most going to have to raise food prices in order to pay the waiter what he is worth. Because if most people aren't buying the $60 menu item because they feel like it's too expensive at $60, they aren't going to buy it if you raise the pricve even more. This means that the largest price increases are going to come from the stuff most people are buying. Which very well may be the bargain menu items. Which means that the customer with LESS disposable income is getting disproportianately screwed in comparison to the rich customers. For the customers who tend to buy the lower-priced menu items because they can't afford the more expensive stuff, it very well mayn have been less expensive to pay a fifteen percent tip. And even then, the tip would have been 100% voluntary. Now that's gone, and the people complaining about tips now actually end up paying MORE to dine out, and have to pay regardless of whether or not the service sucks.

Or...you could just pay a 15% tip and be done with it.

Everybody needs to watch the opening scene to Reservoir Dogs.

stupid4

Yes, because I get all of my morals from racist murdering thieves who think that police officers aren't "real people".

I used to be a waiter once and have known others who are, so to the waiters/waitresses out there, you got my sympathy.

I went to a restaurant/bar place once and right after we sat down, a waitress came running out, looking frentic and trying to search for someone/something. We asked her what's wrong, she said a customer left without paying and the consequence of that is she'll have to shell out her own money to make that up. After saying this she was literally crying and about to go back inside, then one of my bud asked her how much she needed to make up for the meal and she replied about 25 bucks, so all 4 of us each gave her about a 10 each.... and I couldn't even begin to described to you her facial expression at that point. She just thanked us furiously and repeatedly before going back to work.

Waiters/waitresses have to deal with a lot of crap, and if they can find a better job I can guarantee anyone they will take it. My take on leaving tips is that, while I don't usually tips generously (we seldom spend more than $20 on a meal and I'm not too well off) I will tip enough just so they would earn something from serving at my table.

[QUOTE="Dark__Link"]25% is my standard, it can fluctuate according to service though.FlyingArmbar

25%, seriously? What happens when you plop down $100 on an expensive meal, you seriously tip $25?

You're expected to tip BECAUSE THE SERVICE IS NOT ACCOUNTED FOR IN THE BILL.

Well obviously THE SERVICE IS NOT ACCOUNTED FOR IN THE BILL. Do you seriously need to capitalize that?

You KNOW this.

Well if you know that I know, then WHY DID YOU CAPITALIZE IT? WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF I DID THIS THROUGHOUT MY RESPONSE?

And the whole "the restaurant should pay, not me" argument is again, utter crap. Suppose a waiter is willing to put up with all of the crap (and they deal with a LOT of crap) because he's making $25 an hour.

Who said hes making $25 an hour? No, you can't do that. You can't just assume that a server is making such a wage because it differs greatly.

THAT is what he is worth. THAT is what allows him to maintain his life**** If you're gonna do away with tips, that waiter is going to have to earn a comparable amount in wages.

Yes, it will be necessary.

Now...suppose that now this waiter is earning $3 an hour in wages. A fundamental rule is that if you want quality, most of the time you're gonna have to pay for it. This means that in order to keep the same level of service, that waiter is on average gonna have to be making somewhere close to $25 an hour. Otherwise, he goes and gets a job at Wal-Mart, where he makes money without working hard. You CAN'T cut this guy's wages in half, or he's gonna go work at a grocery store or a gas station.

Obviously if you want quality, you have to pay for it. Again, who said hes automatically making $25 an hour? Also, who said that we're automatically cutting his pay in half!? Are you serious? Ok, if that waiter can seriously get a job at wal-mart making $25/hr why wouldn't he? Oh right, because thats near impossible.

So...establishing that quality costs money, and that quality workers are going to have to make close to the same amount of money in order to make it worth paying for the job, we have a problem. If we get rid of tips and raise this guy's wages from $3 an hour to $25 an hour, WHERE do you think that money is going to come from? Do you think there's a money tree growing behind the restaurant?

Quality costs money? Really!? Wow, I really never thought that :roll:. I thought quality appeared out of nowhere!
Now why are we raising his wage to $25? Where does this magic number come from :? Obviously as I stated in my post it is coming from higher food prices. Where did I even hint that I thought there was a magical money tree? What is wrong with you?

No, this money comes from raising the price of the FOOD. And guess what? If you raise the price of the FOOD enough to give the waiter a comparable amount of money, the customer is STILL paying for it. The customer will be paying just as much, probably even MORE.

I already said, yes the price of FOOD is going to have to go up. The customer will not necessarily be paying MORE, it all depends on how much the restaurant owner will raise food prices.

Because firstly, now it's nonnegotiable. Now the food price is the food price. And if you get crappy service, the waiter might get fired, but you're STILL gonna be paying the amp-up food price and that money is gonna be going to that same waiter.

I am going to be paying, but if the service is that bad, then the waiter isn't going to get away with it.

Secondly, waiters will tell you that sometimes they have to accept minimum wage. If it's a really slow night, and half of the wait staff only gets one table, they don't make **** in tips. If it's an outside section that gets closed due to rain, that waiter hangs around without getting a table. Then they eventually get sent home, without making crap in tips. The restaurant is legally obligated to make up their lack of tips by paying minimum wage. In all, the waiter basically doesn't work, gets kept around for a while, and goes home with minimum wage.

Now...guess what happens if that waiter's base wages are $20 an hour vs $3 an hour. The restaurant might be able to afford making waiters hang around with no tables for $7 an hour. But when waiters are getting paid $25 an hour, they'll get sent home ASAP. This means that when you go to the restaurant a little bit later, you aren't getting in. Because all the waiters got sent home, because the business was having to pay them $20 an hour to stand around doing nothing. That's bad for the restaurant, and that's bad for the CUSTOMER.

If the restaurant truly wanted business, then it would keep its doors open for those customers that might come in.

Furthermore, a set wage means that waiters make $20 regardless of WHAT THEY SELL. This means that if everyone comes in and buys the cheapest thing on the menu, the waiter is making JUST as much as if he'd sold the most expensive item on the menu. Now, go back to the part about how customers are STILL paying the waiter under the fair wage system. This means that having the waitstaff sell you hamburgers costs just as much as having the waitstaff sell you their $60 steak.

Are you seriously going to assume that everyone will buy the cheapest thing on the menu?

Now...think about that for a second. Suppose a hamburger costs eight bucks, and their best dish costs $60. And a dude who sells hamburgers all night long is going to make just as much as the person who sells the signature dish all night long.

Again, why do you assume that this type of thing exists? Also, what kind of a restaurant has entres that have such a huge range? Also, if tips are voluntary, people who are eating the more expensive dishes are most likely going to be tipping more because they have the money. Therefore the guy who sells the expensive dishes makes more money.

Now...pretend you own the business, and think about that for a second. You're gonna have to do a cost analysis here. And it's very likely that you sell a lot more of the items at the bottom of the price range than you do the items at the top of the price range.

So...yeah. If a big part of your sales consist of items at the bottom of the price list, THAT is where you're most going to have to raise food prices in order to pay the waiter what he is worth. Because if most people aren't buying the $60 menu item because they feel like it's too expensive at $60, they aren't going to buy it if you raise the pricve even more. This means that the largest price increases are going to come from the stuff most people are buying. Which very well may be the bargain menu items. Which means that the customer with LESS disposable income is getting disproportionately screwed in comparison to the rich customers. For the customers who tend to buy the lower-priced menu items because they can't afford the more expensive stuff, it very well mayn have been less expensive to pay a fifteen percent tip. And even then, the tip would have been 100% voluntary. Now that's gone, and the people complaining about tips now actually end up paying MORE to dine out, and have to pay regardless of whether or not the service sucks.

First of all, if I'm running a place that offers $60 entrees, I don't think I will be offering $8 entrees because that just doesnt make sense. If I'm offer $60 meals then I'm obviously appealing to the crowd that has more money. Therefore I will be able to increase the wage of the waiters appropriately because I sell higher priced meals. Extremely good service is expected at these types of places, therefore I will pay more for that quality. Tips will be recieved in higher amounts as well, because these type of customers have a greater disposable income.
Now If I'm going to be running a place that offers $8 entress, I'm obviously not going to be paying as much as the place which offers $60 entrees, because if I did, that wouldn't make sense at all and I would be losing money. At this type of restaurant, the same quality of service isn't expected either. Therefore I don't have to pay as much. Sure tips wont be as much either, but they would still be a nice bonus of the employee.

Or...you could just pay a 15% tip and be done with it.

MrGeezer

Well, it's painfully obvious that you're never going to be a successful business owner.

And it's NOT a "bonus". No matter how much you say it SHOULD be a bonus, it ISN'T (at least in the USA). You KNOW this, which means that you know that stiffing a waiter merely on principle IS denying him the money that he has EARNED.

A lot of waiters DO earn a good $25 in tips (at least) while making about $3 in wages. A lot of restaurants can't AFFORD to pay waiters a fair wage while keeping food costs reasonable, which is why a huge percentage of restaurants fail within the first two years. And that sure as HELL isn't gonna get any better if food prices go up everywhere. Restaurants generally are NOT massive profit machines. Their profit margins are often small, they often have to cater to a wide demographic (which is why many of them DO have a selection of low end and high end items), and the $3 minimum wage IS what is keeping a hell of a lot of restaurants from closing down.

This is a simple fact.

It's also a simple fact (one that you agree with) that customers are STILL paying the employees even when we get rid of tips.

That's all we need to know. If the objection is that "customers have to pay the waiters", that isn';t changing. Customers will ALWAYS be paying the customers' earnings whether there are tips or not. That's not even a complaint, that's just a statement about the nature of how goods and services are obtained.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

You're expected to tip BECAUSE THE SERVICE IS NOT ACCOUNTED FOR IN THE BILL.

Well obviously THE SERVICE IS NOT ACCOUNTED FOR IN THE BILL. Do you seriously need to capitalize that?

You KNOW this.

Well if you know that I know, then WHY DID YOU CAPITALIZE IT? WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF I DID THIS THROUGHOUT MY RESPONSE?

And the whole "the restaurant should pay, not me" argument is again, utter crap. Suppose a waiter is willing to put up with all of the crap (and they deal with a LOT of crap) because he's making $25 an hour.

Who said hes making $25 an hour? No, you can't do that. You can't just assume that a server is making such a wage because it differs greatly.

THAT is what he is worth. THAT is what allows him to maintain his life**** If you're gonna do away with tips, that waiter is going to have to earn a comparable amount in wages.

Yes, it will be necessary.

Now...suppose that now this waiter is earning $3 an hour in wages. A fundamental rule is that if you want quality, most of the time you're gonna have to pay for it. This means that in order to keep the same level of service, that waiter is on average gonna have to be making somewhere close to $25 an hour. Otherwise, he goes and gets a job at Wal-Mart, where he makes money without working hard. You CAN'T cut this guy's wages in half, or he's gonna go work at a grocery store or a gas station.

Obviously if you want quality, you have to pay for it. Again, who said hes automatically making $25 an hour? Also, who said that we're automatically cutting his pay in half!? Are you serious? Ok, if that waiter can seriously get a job at wal-mart making $25/hr why wouldn't he? Oh right, because thats near impossible.

So...establishing that quality costs money, and that quality workers are going to have to make close to the same amount of money in order to make it worth paying for the job, we have a problem. If we get rid of tips and raise this guy's wages from $3 an hour to $25 an hour, WHERE do you think that money is going to come from? Do you think there's a money tree growing behind the restaurant?

Quality costs money? Really!? Wow, I really never thought that :roll:. I thought quality appeared out of nowhere!
Now why are we raising his wage to $25? Where does this magic number come from :? Obviously as I stated in my post it is coming from higher food prices. Where did I even hint that I thought there was a magical money tree? What is wrong with you?

No, this money comes from raising the price of the FOOD. And guess what? If you raise the price of the FOOD enough to give the waiter a comparable amount of money, the customer is STILL paying for it. The customer will be paying just as much, probably even MORE.

I already said, yes the price of FOOD is going to have to go up. The customer will not necessarily be paying MORE, it all depends on how much the restaurant owner will raise food prices.

Because firstly, now it's nonnegotiable. Now the food price is the food price. And if you get crappy service, the waiter might get fired, but you're STILL gonna be paying the amp-up food price and that money is gonna be going to that same waiter.

I am going to be paying, but if the service is that bad, then the waiter isn't going to get away with it.

Secondly, waiters will tell you that sometimes they have to accept minimum wage. If it's a really slow night, and half of the wait staff only gets one table, they don't make **** in tips. If it's an outside section that gets closed due to rain, that waiter hangs around without getting a table. Then they eventually get sent home, without making crap in tips. The restaurant is legally obligated to make up their lack of tips by paying minimum wage. In all, the waiter basically doesn't work, gets kept around for a while, and goes home with minimum wage.

Now...guess what happens if that waiter's base wages are $20 an hour vs $3 an hour. The restaurant might be able to afford making waiters hang around with no tables for $7 an hour. But when waiters are getting paid $25 an hour, they'll get sent home ASAP. This means that when you go to the restaurant a little bit later, you aren't getting in. Because all the waiters got sent home, because the business was having to pay them $20 an hour to stand around doing nothing. That's bad for the restaurant, and that's bad for the CUSTOMER.

If the restaurant truly wanted business, then it would keep its doors open for those customers that might come in.

Furthermore, a set wage means that waiters make $20 regardless of WHAT THEY SELL. This means that if everyone comes in and buys the cheapest thing on the menu, the waiter is making JUST as much as if he'd sold the most expensive item on the menu. Now, go back to the part about how customers are STILL paying the waiter under the fair wage system. This means that having the waitstaff sell you hamburgers costs just as much as having the waitstaff sell you their $60 steak.

Are you seriously going to assume that everyone will buy the cheapest thing on the menu?

Now...think about that for a second. Suppose a hamburger costs eight bucks, and their best dish costs $60. And a dude who sells hamburgers all night long is going to make just as much as the person who sells the signature dish all night long.

Again, why do you assume that this type of thing exists? Also, what kind of a restaurant has entres that have such a huge range? Also, if tips are voluntary, people who are eating the more expensive dishes are most likely going to be tipping more because they have the money. Therefore the guy who sells the expensive dishes makes more money.

Now...pretend you own the business, and think about that for a second. You're gonna have to do a cost analysis here. And it's very likely that you sell a lot more of the items at the bottom of the price range than you do the items at the top of the price range.

So...yeah. If a big part of your sales consist of items at the bottom of the price list, THAT is where you're most going to have to raise food prices in order to pay the waiter what he is worth. Because if most people aren't buying the $60 menu item because they feel like it's too expensive at $60, they aren't going to buy it if you raise the pricve even more. This means that the largest price increases are going to come from the stuff most people are buying. Which very well may be the bargain menu items. Which means that the customer with LESS disposable income is getting disproportionately screwed in comparison to the rich customers. For the customers who tend to buy the lower-priced menu items because they can't afford the more expensive stuff, it very well mayn have been less expensive to pay a fifteen percent tip. And even then, the tip would have been 100% voluntary. Now that's gone, and the people complaining about tips now actually end up paying MORE to dine out, and have to pay regardless of whether or not the service sucks.

First of all, if I'm running a place that offers $60 entrees, I don't think I will be offering $8 entrees because that just doesnt make sense. If I'm offer $60 meals then I'm obviously appealing to the crowd that has more money. Therefore I will be able to increase the wage of the waiters appropriately because I sell higher priced meals. Extremely good service is expected at these types of places, therefore I will pay more for that quality. Tips will be recieved in higher amounts as well, because these type of customers have a greater disposable income.
Now If I'm going to be running a place that offers $8 entress, I'm obviously not going to be paying as much as the place which offers $60 entrees, because if I did, that wouldn't make sense at all and I would be losing money. At this type of restaurant, the same quality of service isn't expected either. Therefore I don't have to pay as much. Sure tips wont be as much either, but they would still be a nice bonus of the employee.

Or...you could just pay a 15% tip and be done with it.

carrot-cake

Good response. I agree entirely.

Although, I would say that service IS included in the price list from the very beginning. There is no such thing as a restaurant that runs on an entirely commission-based (ie tipping) wage system for service staff. The revenue of the restaurant, that is to say the prices customers pay for their food, is filtered through to all its staff, be they chefs, waiters, sommeliers, or even lowly cleaning staff in the form of wages. So why are waiters extra deserving of money? The chefs work longer hours, doing harder work, and often for not a lot more than the other staff...surely they should be the ones getting a tip?

Tips are a bonus on top of standard wages. If you provide good service, you should get a tip. But that does not mean waiting staff have a god-given right to tips no matter what. I've been to plenty of top London restaurants where the service was atrocious and refused to pay tips to the staff. It's not because I'm poor, or because I'm cheap, seeing as I've just paid the equivalent of probably $100-$200 on a meal, but because they staff haven't earned it.

Lastly, when I go to a restaurant, I'm going for the privelege of having someone else cook nice food for me. I really couldn't care less if I have to go get it from the kitchen myself or if some guy carries it for me. Even a good waiter is a glorified food-ferrier, and I agree that there is no real reason why I should have to pay him extra for merely refraining from spitting in my food. For example, I don't tip a cabbie for merely driving me to my destination, I tip him if he does so quicker than i expected, or helps me with my luggage...ie, he goes above and beyond the call of duty. Likewise, I tip waiters when they can recommend what food is especially good, and what goes well together, and what wine i should try with my selections; or when they are especially helpful and accomodating to my needs. I have no intention of tipping if they merely do the job they are required to do: bringing me what I order.

Tips are NOT a bonus. No matter how many times you keep saying it, that doesn't make it true. Waiters DO make less than half of minimum wage as a base wage, and they have to rely on tips just to get them up to minimum wage. That's NOT a bonus.

And yeah the chef works harder than the waiter. He also makes more money than the waiter, or else he'd simply stop being a chef and wait tables instead. And if the chef was making the same $3 an hour that the waiter gets, then they'd have to incorporate tips for him as well.

And that's not counting the fact that the waiters have to pay the bussers and the bartenders. Yeah, waiters have to chip in and pay the other staff out of their own pockets, while making $3 an hour. Do the chef, line cook, and front of the house manager have to take money out of their own pockets to help pay their coworkers? No.

I always tip unless the service was absolutely terrible.

You kind of "Have to" tip. I personally don't think they deserve it. They just take the orders, and bring it to you. I think the chefs deserve it more.

I still tip anyway.

A couple of points: Being a waiter is not a job that requires skills. Anyone can do it. Therefore, it's not a job that will ever pay well unless you put the extra into to get great tips. Since anyone can pump gas, it doesn't pay well. Since it takes years of schooling and training to be an engineer, lawyer, doctor, architect, surgeon, they get paid well. Also, tips should be a form of incentive and motivation to do a great job. A waiter will be paid minimum wage if they do not earn enough in tips. So the theory about not being compensated fairly doesn't fly with me. They will also most likely be fired because of it and learn a lesson about doing a good job in order to receive good tips. Tips aren't an entitlement. You earn tips.FragStains

That's exactly it...waiters who regularly don't make enough in tips are going to get fired. Because if one waiter costs $3 an hour to employ, and another waiter costs $7 an hour to employ, guess who's getting fired?

Enough non-tippers can get a waiter fired.

Now here's the thing...if a waiter isn't making enough tips because they suck, then they deserve to get fired. But quite a few people here don't tip simply on principle. When a waiter does a good job, they still don't tip. They're potentially getting someone one step closer to getting fired even though the waiter did a great job. Is it in ANY way fair for someone to lose their jobs through no fault of their own, but instead simply because some customers are too damn stingy to pay for service?

The amount of tips is supposed to give an indication of how good the service was. If someone receives good service, and then doesn't tip, they are giving an unfair and innacurate feedback on that waiter's performance.

I'm not TALKING about people who don't tip because they've gotten bad service. You're not SUPPOSED to tip (at least not well) when you get bad service. This entire time, I've been talking about the people who don't tip REGARDLESS of how good the service was.

[QUOTE="FragStains"]A couple of points: Being a waiter is not a job that requires skills. Anyone can do it. Therefore, it's not a job that will ever pay well unless you put the extra into to get great tips. Since anyone can pump gas, it doesn't pay well. Since it takes years of schooling and training to be an engineer, lawyer, doctor, architect, surgeon, they get paid well. Also, tips should be a form of incentive and motivation to do a great job. A waiter will be paid minimum wage if they do not earn enough in tips. So the theory about not being compensated fairly doesn't fly with me. They will also most likely be fired because of it and learn a lesson about doing a good job in order to receive good tips. Tips aren't an entitlement. You earn tips.MrGeezer

That's exactly it...waiters who regularly don't make enough in tips are going to get fired. Because if one waiter costs $3 an hour to employ, and another waiter costs $7 an hour to employ, guess who's getting fired?

Enough non-tippers can get a waiter fired.

Now here's the thing...if a waiter isn't making enough tips because they suck, then they deserve to get fired. But quite a few people here don't tip simply on principle. When a waiter does a good job, they still don't tip. They're potentially getting someone one step closer to getting fired even though the waiter did a great job. Is it in ANY way fair for someone to lose their jobs through no fault of their own, but instead simply because some customers are too damn stingy to pay for service?

The amount of tips is supposed to give an indication of how good the service was. If someone receives good service, and then doesn't tip, they are giving an unfair and innacurate feedback on that waiter's performance.

I'm not TALKING about people who don't tip because they've gotten bad service. You're not SUPPOSED to tip (at least not well) when you get bad service. This entire time, I've been talking about the people who don't tip REGARDLESS of how good the service was.

Only when the service was superb.