Where do you get your music?

It's not the same thing as shoplifting, some of these bands want to get their name out there so they would actually prefer you downloaded their music. Then when they visit your town you pay to go see them at a show, where they actually see more money instead of a CD sale. Not to mention merchandise. Also if it wasn't for that all the bands who i have bought CDs from i never would have known about. X360PS3AMD05

I've heard this argument in every piracy thread that has ever shown up on GS... what it amounts to is saying that if an unethical activity has potentially postive side effects, it is not unethical. But that argument holds little water because of the word 'potential.' There is no guarantee that piracy will have any positive impact on an artist's career, and yet the piracy is still there. Sure, a person MAY be compelled to spend money on the artists down the road, but then again, they may very well not decide to do so, especially if money is tight (in which case they will undoubtely continue to consume for free without remorse, because they believe they are morally justified in doing so on account of the fact that they WOULD spend money on the artists if they could). Perhaps the artists in question never visit your home town. Maybe they never make it big and end up with merchandise of any sort. In the end there are too many 'maybes' in this equation, and ALL of them are in the hands of the consumer who committed the initial immoral act. The artist is powerless to influence the decision in the end, yet it was his or her work that was consumed for free.

Lots of bands do release samples of their music to get their name out. And if they do, fine! Consume it! They're permitting you to do so, after all. But it's not YOUR music, and so it's not YOUR right to decide whether or not they should market themselves that way. If an artist does not want his or her work distributed for free, the request should be honored. When you get right down to it, I have a feeling that free samples would exist in abundance if there was no piracy whatsoever in the world, because musicians who are unknown and have no free samples will not be able to compete with unknown musicians who do release free samples (assuming both produce music people would want to hear).

If you produce something of value, you should have total control over its distribution. If you want to hand over that control to a company, fine. If you want to release it to others for nothing, fine. If you want to charge a million dollars for it and can find someone who will pay that amount for it, fine. But it should be your decision and your decision alone. Not that of some random guy who is not a musician but happens to hold a philosophical viewpoint that music should be free for everyone (I wonder how willing he would be to do his work for nothing).

No, piracy is not like shoplifting, because shoplifting is stealing a product. Piracy is refusing to pay your share for a service which is extremely expensive to produce. It would be like sneaking into a movie theatre or sporting event. On a more individual level, it would be like getting a haircut or having a doctor's appointment and walking out without paying. It's stealing an entertainment service, not a 'thing.'

P.S. Perhaps this isn't a big thing in popular music - frankly I don't know - but in the cIassical realm, many artists do not perform live, opting instead to become professional recording artists only. As such, they would receive nothing at all as compensation for live performance. And if they don't want to perform live when they SHOULD be able to make a living as a recording artist, they shouldn't be forced to perform live by people who refuse to pay for the service they receive.

[QUOTE="Zaeryn"][QUOTE="TheGTAvaccine"]

[QUOTE="Zaeryn"]I download it all the time. I just don't think I should have to pay for music when I can get it for free.dgbiker1

I'm sorry, but that's utterly rediculous.

[QUOTE="dgbiker1"][QUOTE="Zaeryn"][QUOTE="TheGTAvaccine"]

[QUOTE="Zaeryn"]I download it all the time. I just don't think I should have to pay for music when I can get it for free.funnymario

I'm sorry, but that's utterly rediculous.

Are you known collectively as 4-1-9ers? If not, I would assume his comment was only directed at that specific criminal group... but I've never head that term before.

[QUOTE="NecroKvltMuffin"]

Yes it does.

pianist

Would you condone shoplifting? How about breaking into someone's house? Stealing a car? How about going to a fancy restaurant and leaving without paying? How about going to the doctor and leaving without paying? If so, there's nothing much to be said. I would consider you a repulsively immoral individual, and we would leave it at that.

Don't set yourself up in an ethical quandry. Take for instance theft, you can sit high on your mountain and believe in the justness of your cause while condemning theft as an act, but one could easily point out various scenario's that have occured in real life that blur the line in ethics. Same could be said for the taking of another's life, sure we can invent fancy excuses for protecting our own life, but in the end if you can disable a person without killing them then you should do so. One excuse used time and again by people that criminals should be put to death is that many of them don't change, well I tell you as a man that has been convicted of burglary that I have changed. And believe it or not I regret my actions, however in the state of Texas where I live the law states that someone could take my life even if I show no aggression to them in particular. My personal circumstance was an incident where I thought no one was home, I later found out after I was arrested that someone was home. I never even knew it, I wasn't even there for 30 minutes. In that short a time I could have been killed, all for stealing video games at the age of 14. Sure stealing video games isn't ethical in any fashion, but neither is many accepted norms in our society, which is something you will have to deal with instead of railing on others about how unethical people are.

So please spare us the speeches about starving artists, all the while painting the ethical landscape as if it is black & white. Because in the end many situations are shades of grey, and very rarely in ethical absolutes.

*sigh*

This is an interesting conversation, and a lively idea. So if you want I would be willing to discuss ethics with you in a thread specifically designed for it, after all I suspect there are many issues that we might see eye to eye, where as we might be firmly opposed to each other on others. If you so desire to copy this post and put it in such a thread then by all means do so, it would make an excellent foundation for a discussion about ethics.

Take care, and enjoy your week.

[QUOTE="pianist"][QUOTE="NecroKvltMuffin"]

Yes it does.

Smaug84

Would you condone shoplifting? How about breaking into someone's house? Stealing a car? How about going to a fancy restaurant and leaving without paying? How about going to the doctor and leaving without paying? If so, there's nothing much to be said. I would consider you a repulsively immoral individual, and we would leave it at that.

Don't set yourself up in an ethical quandry. Take for instance theft, you can sit high on your mountain and believe in the justness of your cause while condemning theft as an act, but one could easily point out various scenario's that have occured in real life that blur the line in ethics. Same could be said for the taking of another's life, sure we can invent fancy excuses for protecting our own life, but in the end if you can disable a person without killing them then you should do so. One excuse used time and again by people that criminals should be put to death is that many of them don't change, well I tell you as a man that has been convicted of burglary that I have changed. And believe it or not I regret my actions, however in the state of Texas where I live the law states that someone could take my life even if I show no aggression to them in particular. My personal circumstance was an incident where I thought no one was home, I later found out after I was arrested that someone was home. I never even knew it, I wasn't even there for 30 minutes. In that short a time I could have been killed, all for stealing video games at the age of 14. Sure stealing video games isn't ethical in any fashion, but neither is many accepted norms in our society, which is something you will have to deal with instead of railing on others about how unethical people are.

So please spare us the speeches about starving artists, all the while painting the ethical landscape as if it is black & white. Because in the end many situations are shades of grey, and very rarely in ethical absolutes.

*sigh*

This is an interesting conversation, and a lively idea. So if you want I would be willing to discuss ethics with you in a thread specifically designed for it, after all I suspect there are many issues that we might see eye to eye, where as we might be firmly opposed to each other on others. If you so desire to copy this post and put it in such a thread then by all means do so, it would make an excellent foundation for a discussion about ethics.

Take care, and enjoy your week.

I will attempt to respond to this more fully when I am able - it's way too late for me to be getting into this sort of debate. But for now, I will only say that my views on the unethical nature of piracy have nothing to do with possible punishments for piracy. This isn't a question of what should happen to a pirate, nor about the many other unethical aspects of our society, but rather whether or not the act of piracy itself is ethical. Can you make an argument as to why it would be ethical to consume a service for free when it was not intended to be free? I agree with you that ethics are rarely black and white. But to date, I have not heard one compelling argument for the ethical legitimacy of piracy, aside from the highly questionable suggestion that piracy will have a postive impact on all the artists who are subjected to it.

As for railing... do bear in mind that I was responding to a forumite who expressed a belief that immoral activity is justified so long as it results in personal gain. I find that belief morally repugnant, and believe it to be the root cause of many serious problems with human society. I think condemning such a viewpoint is perfectly reasonable. You can be as selfish as you like if you don't participate in unethical behaviour as a result, but the fulfillment of selfish desires at the expense of others and without their consent should not be tolerated. Ever.

That would be the basis for a discussion on the topic here. Your post opens up a whole new can of worms, and I think you are correct in thinking it needs its own thread. But I think you should create it, as it is your idea. It may generate an excellent discussion... or it may not. This is OT after all.:P

And finally, I have no trouble believing that you are remorseful for your unethical youthful dealings, and I am an opponent of harsh justice - especially the death penalty. Thank you for contributing something truly meaningful to the discussion!

.... not legally..... that's all you need to know.....gorilazandgames

[QUOTE="gorilazandgames"].... not legally..... that's all you need to know.....ChaosRyder665

[QUOTE="Smaug84"][QUOTE="pianist"][QUOTE="NecroKvltMuffin"]

Yes it does.

pianist

Would you condone shoplifting? How about breaking into someone's house? Stealing a car? How about going to a fancy restaurant and leaving without paying? How about going to the doctor and leaving without paying? If so, there's nothing much to be said. I would consider you a repulsively immoral individual, and we would leave it at that.

Don't set yourself up in an ethical quandry. Take for instance theft, you can sit high on your mountain and believe in the justness of your cause while condemning theft as an act, but one could easily point out various scenario's that have occured in real life that blur the line in ethics. Same could be said for the taking of another's life, sure we can invent fancy excuses for protecting our own life, but in the end if you can disable a person without killing them then you should do so. One excuse used time and again by people that criminals should be put to death is that many of them don't change, well I tell you as a man that has been convicted of burglary that I have changed. And believe it or not I regret my actions, however in the state of Texas where I live the law states that someone could take my life even if I show no aggression to them in particular. My personal circumstance was an incident where I thought no one was home, I later found out after I was arrested that someone was home. I never even knew it, I wasn't even there for 30 minutes. In that short a time I could have been killed, all for stealing video games at the age of 14. Sure stealing video games isn't ethical in any fashion, but neither is many accepted norms in our society, which is something you will have to deal with instead of railing on others about how unethical people are.

So please spare us the speeches about starving artists, all the while painting the ethical landscape as if it is black & white. Because in the end many situations are shades of grey, and very rarely in ethical absolutes.

*sigh*

This is an interesting conversation, and a lively idea. So if you want I would be willing to discuss ethics with you in a thread specifically designed for it, after all I suspect there are many issues that we might see eye to eye, where as we might be firmly opposed to each other on others. If you so desire to copy this post and put it in such a thread then by all means do so, it would make an excellent foundation for a discussion about ethics.

Take care, and enjoy your week.

I will attempt to respond to this more fully when I am able - it's way too late for me to be getting into this sort of debate. But for now, I will only say that my views on the unethical nature of piracy have nothing to do with possible punishments for piracy. This isn't a question of what should happen to a pirate, nor about the many other unethical aspects of our society, but rather whether or not the act of piracy itself is ethical. Can you make an argument as to why it would be ethical to consume a service for free when it was not intended to be free? I agree with you that ethics are rarely black and white. But to date, I have not heard one compelling argument for the ethical legitimacy of piracy, aside from the highly questionable suggestion that piracy will have a postive impact on all the artists who are subjected to it.

As for railing... do bear in mind that I was responding to a forumite who expressed a belief that immoral activity is justified so long as it results in personal gain. I find that belief morally repugnant, and believe it to be the root cause of many serious problems with human society. I think condemning such a viewpoint is perfectly reasonable. You can be as selfish as you like if you don't participate in unethical behaviour as a result, but the fulfillment of selfish desires at the expense of others and without their consent should not be tolerated. Ever.

That would be the basis for a discussion on the topic here. Your post opens up a whole new can of worms, and I think you are correct in thinking it needs its own thread. But I think you should create it, as it is your idea. It may generate an excellent discussion... or it may not. This is OT after all.:P

And finally, I have no trouble believing that you are remorseful for your unethical youthful dealings, and I am an opponent of harsh justice - especially the death penalty. Thank you for contributing something truly meaningful to the discussion!

Thank you for elaborating you case. I feel I may have come across as overbearing when that really wasn't my intention, I just saw the discussion moving to include other types of theft and got a little carried away with my response. Hopefully I'll be able to pull on reserves of energy after work today to write up a thread. :) I do tend to put things off for a later date, procrastinate if you will, so don't be suprised if I do so with this. Such is life though.

With that I bid you adieu, and wish you well in your current endeavors.

Why the hell do poeple bother buying CDs anymore...RamboSymbiot

Basically so they can have a hard copy that is silver pressed, has the booklet, and often times so they can read the lyrics in the booklet.

[QUOTE="RamboSymbiot"]Why the hell do poeple bother buying CDs anymore...Smaug84

Basically so they can have a hard copy that is silver pressed, has the booklet, and often times so they can read the lyrics in the booklet.

I can get all that without buying a hard copy

[QUOTE="FamiBox"]

Opinions, opinons.

pianist

I've justified my opinion. Justify yours. Explain how using a service for free when it was not offered for free is not unethical. Not all opinions are created equal, and while you may hold the opinion that piracy is not unethical, if you can't justify the opinion, it is flawed and irrelevant.

Yet even more opinions.....

I DL.

I'm thinking about getting a Record Player too.

I DL.

I'm thinking about getting a Record Player too.

PickGlove243

Less thought, more action!

I DL.

I'm thinking about getting a Record Player too.

PickGlove243

records...............?

[QUOTE="pianist"]

I've justified my opinion. Justify yours. Explain how using a service for free when it was not offered for free is not unethical. Not all opinions are created equal, and while you may hold the opinion that piracy is not unethical, if you can't justify the opinion, it is flawed and irrelevant.

FamiBox

Yet even more opinions.....

Ah yes. The "stick my fingers in my ears and chant an irrelevant mantra" debate technique. Very effective.

itunes of course.

where else?

hehe

Music stores to own the actual physicalalbum. Not a digital copy.....

So it is unethical, and? Should we be afraid we're going to burn in hell or something? The first ones to be burned at the stake should be the people who never purchase anything and don't really care, then people like me will wait in line.X360PS3AMD05

And nothing. In all likelihood there will be no consequences for your behaviour. It's just disheartening that so many people will do something unethical just because it's easy to do. I mean honestly... how would you feel if you provided a service to someone and they refused to pay you for it? How would you feel if someone told you that you should work for free because you 'just sit around all day playing music?'

Capitalism only works if people are paid fairly for what they provide to society. If you deserve to be paid as much as you can make for whatever it is you provide to society, so do the musicians who make these recordings. If you enjoy their music enough to download it and listen to it more than once, you really should be paying the dollar or whatever it is to keep the song. In reality, that's all it boils down to - whether you make the choice to willingly do something unethical or not.

I DL.

I'm thinking about getting a Record Player too.

PickGlove243

[QUOTE="PickGlove243"]

I DL.

I'm thinking about getting a Record Player too.

TempleGoat

Less thought, more action!