Who is the greatest NFL Quarterback of all time?

[QUOTE="mrmusicman247"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]Joe Montana -QB today is MUCH easier to play: 1. rules on hits to QB 2. rules on WR's 3. plays called for them (except for Manning) = can't compare stats b/w eras The position is about winning Favre is good...but not an all-time great IMO (he has longevity). But I can think of at least 5 QB's I would take over him (not in top 5 = not an all-time great IMO) Montana, Manning, Brady, Elway, and Staubach...maybe even Youngwstfld

Finally someone recognized Manning for his playcalling abilities. I mean audibles almost every damn play because he can read the defense.

Also no mention of Jim Kelly is very disappointing.

quetzalcoatI

I don't think Bret Favre belongs on that list. He has longevity, but he was never the type of quarterback that I knew would beat my time. Put Elway on their instead.

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="Renegade_Fury"]

No, I say he isn't THE best, not that he isn't one of the best. You think I don't know it takes a team? I've always believed it starts at the top, from ownership, GM, coaching, and both the o-line and d-line before I start worrying about the QB. The reason the niners have 5 Super Bowls is because of Eddie D, Carmen Policy, and Bill Walsh and their superb eyes for talent and coaching.

Renegade_Fury

Hmm... oh yes, let's take out the number book. That is basically what all Marino supporters have isn't it?

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Here, I'll take out the ones that matter. You know the ones in the postseason:

Most TDs (45)

Games with a passing rating over 100 (12)

Second in passing yards and games with 300+ passing yards (5,772)

1,1142 yards, 11 TD, 0 INTs, passer rating of 127.8, 3 MVPs, and 4-0 record in SB's

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I can list Montana's regular season numbers too, but what's the point? He has them, difference is, he didn't have to do everything. He had more weapons, a D, and the greatest coach that ever lived. Marino and Elway didn't, which is why they had to those things. What Montana did have that made him stand above the rest, was his ability to come in the clutch. Be it MNF, playoffs, or the SB, Montana came to play. That is why he won all 4 SBs, and had both the biggest blowout SB win, and arguably the greatest comeback drive ever as well. Take into account he did this in a non salalry cap and tougher era for passers, and just further boosts his legend. Even in KC, he proved it when he toppled Elway's Broncos on national telivision and took the Chiefs to the AFC championship game.

I'm not going to waste my time any further. I'm not trying to convince you. You can believe whoever you want is the greatest, but for me, if my life was on the line, there is no QB I'd take over Joe Cool.

lol at you trying to discredit marino's statistics like stats don't matter..BMD004

Part of being a GREAT QB is being a leader.
Word on the street is that Marino's teammates hated him and did not want to play for him...explains why they reached the SB his rookie year and never again (before the ego).

Only made the Playoffs 10/17 years.
...that is throwing a lot of meaningless yards

I'm just still shocked that I'm the ONLY person to mention Dan Marino. The only reason that he is considered by many not to be the all-time greatest is because he didn't win a super-bowl. If he won just one superbowl, he would probably be considered the greatest by many. Pure-passer wise... quarterback skills wise, he is the greatest.

I'm just still shocked that I'm the ONLY person to mention Dan Marino. The only reason that he is considered by many not to be the all-time greatest is because he didn't win a super-bowl. If he won just one superbowl, he would probably be considered the greatest by many. Pure-passer wise... quarterback skills wise, he is the greatest.

BMD004

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

lol at you trying to discredit marino's statistics like stats don't matter..rawsavon

Part of being a GREAT QB is being a leader.
Word on the street is that Marino's teammates hated him and did not want to play for him...explains why they reached the SB his rookie year and never again (before the ego).

Only made the Playoffs 10/17 years.
...that is throwing a lot of meaningless yards

johnny unitas?

Bart Starr?

John Elway?

Steve Young?

How are these not even options?

BMD004

my thoughts exactly. but anyways i have lost a great deal of respect for favre in the past few years...i used to not mind him but now i cant stand him

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

I'm just still shocked that I'm the ONLY person to mention Dan Marino. The only reason that he is considered by many not to be the all-time greatest is because he didn't win a super-bowl. If he won just one superbowl, he would probably be considered the greatest by many. Pure-passer wise... quarterback skills wise, he is the greatest.

rawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

lol at you trying to discredit marino's statistics like stats don't matter..BMD004

Part of being a GREAT QB is being a leader.
Word on the street is that Marino's teammates hated him and did not want to play for him...explains why they reached the SB his rookie year and never again (before the ego).

Only made the Playoffs 10/17 years.
...that is throwing a lot of meaningless yards

The AFC was garbage in those years (see my OP).
The NFC won 12 or 13 straight SB's...I am not talking about getting to or winning the whole thing. I am talking about even making the playoffs.
How often do you think Manning or Brady will miss the playoffs in their careers?
-Marino only made the playoffs 58% of the time...PATHETIC for a supposed 'all-time great'

I'm just still shocked that I'm the ONLY person to mention Dan Marino. The only reason that he is considered by many not to be the all-time greatest is because he didn't win a super-bowl. If he won just one superbowl, he would probably be considered the greatest by many. Pure-passer wise... quarterback skills wise, he is the greatest.

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

Part of being a GREAT QB is being a leader.
Word on the street is that Marino's teammates hated him and did not want to play for him...explains why they reached the SB his rookie year and never again (before the ego).

Only made the Playoffs 10/17 years.
...that is throwing a lot of meaningless yards

rawsavon

The AFC was garbage in those years (see my OP).
The NFC won 12 or 13 straight SB's...I am not talking about getting to or winning the whole thing. I am talking about even making the playoffs.
How often do you think Manning or Brady will miss the playoffs in their careers?
-Marino only made the playoffs 58% of the time...PATHETIC for a supposed 'all-time great'

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] Stats are stats and nothing more. Before this year (new coach), Texas Tech QB's always put up the best stats in college (or very near the top)...does that make them the best...of course not. Marino has empty stats and nothing more. He got far his rookie year (when it was less about him...same with any rookie QB) and never did anything else of note besides stats. Only making the playoffs 10/17 years is the utlmate stat...where most GREAT QB's make is almost every year (usually at least 75% of the time)rawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"] That is true... but look at the difference in teams between the 49ers and the Miami Dolphins. Marino didn't have much to work with.

BMD004

The AFC was garbage in those years (see my OP).
The NFC won 12 or 13 straight SB's...I am not talking about getting to or winning the whole thing. I am talking about even making the playoffs.
How often do you think Manning or Brady will miss the playoffs in their careers?
-Marino only made the playoffs 58% of the time...PATHETIC for a supposed 'all-time great'

The Colts don't have that great of players though...no running game since E. James left, Manning makes the WR's, Dallas Clark is All-World...but who else do they have that is not great b/c of Manning.

Same with Brady...they won with nobody's at WR and RB

List me All-time great QB's with worse records (making the playoffs)

Look at the Patriots when Brady broke the touchdown record. They were unstoppable... more so than any other season.

Marino had a year when he broke nearly every single-season passing record. And what did the Dolphins do? I don't know how they finished without looking it up, but they didn't make the Super Bowl. Why? Because he played on the Dolphins.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] College is so much different from the NFL. Not everybody plays the same teams, there are many different offensive styles that not everybody is used to, etc. Football is a team game. The reason that the Dolphins didn't win any super-bowls is because they were the Miami Dolphins. Not because Dan Marino wasn't good enough to get to a super-bowl besides that one time.BMD004

Look at the Patriots when Brady broke the touchdown record. They were unstoppable... more so than any other season.

Marino had a year when he broke nearly every single-season passing record. And what did the Dolphins do? I don't know how they finished without looking it up, but they didn't make the Super Bowl. Why? Because he played on the Dolphins.

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

The AFC was garbage in those years (see my OP).
The NFC won 12 or 13 straight SB's...I am not talking about getting to or winning the whole thing. I am talking about even making the playoffs.
How often do you think Manning or Brady will miss the playoffs in their careers?
-Marino only made the playoffs 58% of the time...PATHETIC for a supposed 'all-time great'

rawsavon

The Colts don't have that great of players though...no running game since E. James left, Manning makes the WR's, Dallas Clark is All-World...but who else do they have that is not great b/c of Manning.

Same with Brady...they won with nobody's at WR and RB

List me All-time great QB's with worse records (making the playoffs)

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] My point was that stats are stats and nothing more. Aikman has terrible stats, but he is the Hall of Fame...why? b/c football is not baseball (an individual sport based on stats)rawsavon

Look at the Patriots when Brady broke the touchdown record. They were unstoppable... more so than any other season.

Marino had a year when he broke nearly every single-season passing record. And what did the Dolphins do? I don't know how they finished without looking it up, but they didn't make the Super Bowl. Why? Because he played on the Dolphins.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"] If Marino had the caliber of players of the Colts or the Patriots, you don't think he'd do just as well?

The Colts don't have that great of players though...no running game since E. James left, Manning makes the WR's, Dallas Clark is All-World...but who else do they have that is not great b/c of Manning.

Same with Brady...they won with nobody's at WR and RB

List me All-time great QB's with worse records (making the playoffs)

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] But stats do matter. You can't be leading almost every single passing category and be a bad quarterback like you are implying.quetzalcoatI

Look at the Patriots when Brady broke the touchdown record. They were unstoppable... more so than any other season.

Marino had a year when he broke nearly every single-season passing record. And what did the Dolphins do? I don't know how they finished without looking it up, but they didn't make the Super Bowl. Why? Because he played on the Dolphins.

[QUOTE="quetzalcoatI"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] Where did I EVER say bad? Not an All-time great =/= bad He is good...but not an all-time great rawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

The Colts don't have that great of players though...no running game since E. James left, Manning makes the WR's, Dallas Clark is All-World...but who else do they have that is not great b/c of Manning.

Same with Brady...they won with nobody's at WR and RB

List me All-time great QB's with worse records (making the playoffs)

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] Brady won SB's with no names (they did not win the year you are talking about). All-Time Greats make those around them better...like Manningrawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="quetzalcoatI"] hahahaha. According to your logic, I suppose that Philip Rivers had a bad game against the seahawks too? He threw for 455 yards and 2 touchdowns, but lost still, due to two kick offs returned for touchdowns...

quetzalcoatI

K-gun was good...but not great
-to me, an All-time great = top 5

The AFC was garbage. If a QB won this years NFC West 4 times in a row, would that make them good...the whole AFC was like that (especially before the cap was put in '93)

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] Manning has had great players around him throughout his career. He DID have Edgerin James on his team. (we're talking about all-time between quarterbacks), he has had Marvin Harrison. He has Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Joseph Addai, Dwight Freeney, Pierre Garcon, Adam Vinitari, and more. These are all good players. And I'm sure he's had more good players in the past that I'm missing..

BMD004

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] I know they didn't win the superbowl that year. They won 19 straight games though. And BS that Brady won with no-names. Seriously? His very first super bowl win, he had these guys oh his team: Dieon Branch, Tedy Bruschi, Kevin Faulk, Jarvis Green, Ty Law, Adam Vinateri, Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison, Richard Seymour, Tyrone Poole, and more players who play well as a team. BMD004

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] Manning DID NOT have have James when he won. Harrison is not an all-time great, good though. Wayne is good b/c of manning...same with Garcon. Addai is garbage...a bust. Clark is all world. I will give you that. Their D sucks. You named a kicker...really? Do you not think it is weird that the Colts always have good wr's (now Collie and Garcon and Gonzales)...me thinks that is Peyton and not the WR's Marino had just as good of WR's and a better Drawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"] My brother was teammates with Reggie Wayne in high school... he has always been a BEAST. Everybody knew he was going to the NFL. He was great at Miami. This is hilarious that you downplay other people's talents and say they are ONLY good because of some other guy. Harrison was an amazing player. He's been to the pro-bowl several times, holds records, etc. He was THE man in Indy. Yes, I named a kicker. Kickers can win you games. Vinateri is one of the best.BMD004

I think the answer is Peyton Manning...it doesn't matter who you throw up there to catch the ball...all of a sudden they turn into pro-bowl recievers when he's there....the only detractor is that he only has 1 superbowl ring...without PM...the colts are a 3 win team...Omni-Slash

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] So your brother playing with someone in HS makes someone a GREAT player now :?
...most every NFL player dominated their HS

rawsavon

That is why he is not my #1 (the one ring thing). -if he can get a couple more, he will #1 IMOrawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"] No, I'm saying that we've seen him play since his high school years. It's not like Manning all of a sudden made him great. He was always great whether it was at John Ehret high shcool or University of Miami or the Indianapolis Colts. He's always been a beast.

BMD004

Okay...
I assume what you are saying makes sense to you, but it does not to me. My point is that 90% of the players in the NFL fit your description (great in HS and college)...so it means nothing to me to say that.

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] What other HOF player did Brady have on offense -Branch sucked when he left (wonder why) -Faulk is nothing...just a 3rd down back...really? -then you named all Defensive players...but their offense was goodrawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]That is why he is not my #1 (the one ring thing). -if he can get a couple more, he will #1 IMOOmni-Slash

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] What other HOF player did Brady have on offense -Branch sucked when he left (wonder why) -Faulk is nothing...just a 3rd down back...really? -then you named all Defensive players...but their offense was goodrawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] A lot of times, offenses work not because of the stars, but because of the O-line. The Patriots are known for their increible O-line. This gives Brady all the time in the world to make good passes. wstfld

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] Great in HS and College =/= great in the NFL.
This is adding nothing to the debate (that you think he was great in college or HS)

rawsavon

Okay...
I assume what you are saying makes sense to you, but it does not to me. My point is that 90% of the players in the NFL fit your description (great in HS and college)...so it means nothing to me to say that.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] A lot of times, offenses work not because of the stars, but because of the O-line. The Patriots are known for their increible O-line. This gives Brady all the time in the world to make good passes. BMD004

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"] But your logic is this: He was great in high school, he was great in college, and he is now great in the NFL, not because he is great, but because Peyton Manning makes him great. My logic is this: He was great in high school, he was great in college, and he is now great in the NFL, because he is just a great player.

BMD004

Okay...
I assume what you are saying makes sense to you, but it does not to me. My point is that 90% of the players in the NFL fit your description (great in HS and college)...so it means nothing to me to say that.

Lots of first round busts...that does not mean anything.
Domainate college and HS =/= anything in the NFL
(look at bust after bust at WR 's drafted in the 1st rounds...it is almost as bad as QB)

[QUOTE="wstfld"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] Do you have in-depth analysis from watching Marino's O-line...I sure don't. But i do know that an all-time great QB would do better than making the playoffs 58% of the time. -even with only 'okay' parts...to not even make it as a wild card team.rawsavon

That is not true. The Colts are right smack in the middle of the rushing stats in the NFL. They are average. And actually, they have the least amount of rushing fumbles in the NFL. And the Patriots are even better. They are in the top half of the NFL in rushing. If you go back to 1986, the Dolphins were #25 out of 28 teams in rushing.

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

Okay...
I assume what you are saying makes sense to you, but it does not to me. My point is that 90% of the players in the NFL fit your description (great in HS and college)...so it means nothing to me to say that.

rawsavon

Lots of first round busts...that does not mean anything.
Domainate college and HS =/= anything in the NFL
(look at bust after bust at WR 's drafted in the 1st rounds...it is almost as bad as QB)

@BMD

The colts were last in the league in rushing last year
...so...
looks like Manning can make up for a terrible run game

D was 18
...so looks like Manning can make up for a below average D as well

[QUOTE="wstfld"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] Do you have in-depth analysis from watching Marino's O-line...I sure don't. But i do know that an all-time great QB would do better than making the playoffs 58% of the time. -even with only 'okay' parts...to not even make it as a wild card team.rawsavon