Who is the greatest NFL Quarterback of all time?

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"] No, you're wrong. If he was like the 250th pick in the draft and then becomes amazing, then you may have a point. But he was the Colts first round draft pick.

BMD004

Lots of first round busts...that does not mean anything.
Domainate college and HS =/= anything in the NFL
(look at bust after bust at WR 's drafted in the 1st rounds...it is almost as bad as QB)

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] O-line is important. Do you have in-depth analysis from watching Marino's O-line...I sure don't. But i do know that an all-time great QB would do better than making the playoffs 58% of the time. -even with only 'okay' parts...to not even make it as a wild card team.rawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] And that is bull about Manning not having a good team. I just looked it up, and in 2007 the Colts were 2nd in offense and 2nd in Defense in the AFC. They were good on both sides of the ball. They have always been a solid overall team.wstfld

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]Compare Manning's and Brady's last 5-8 years in rushing to an 8 year span for Marino. -you can't just pick 2 random years and say that is how it was for a career. -if that was the case, Derek Anderson wold be in the HOF after that one good year for the BrownsBMD004

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

Lots of first round busts...that does not mean anything.
Domainate college and HS =/= anything in the NFL
(look at bust after bust at WR 's drafted in the 1st rounds...it is almost as bad as QB)

rawsavon

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"]Compare Manning's and Brady's last 5-8 years in rushing to an 8 year span for Marino. -you can't just pick 2 random years and say that is how it was for a career. -if that was the case, Derek Anderson wold be in the HOF after that one good year for the Brownsrawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"] But my point is that you completely discredit that he has been amazing at football his whole life. He was even the Colts first pick in the draft. He was always great, and was expected to be great, and you say the only reason is because of Manning. It's like saying Jerry Rice was only great because of his quarterback. Not that he was always an amazing receiver, but because Joe and Steve got him the ball.

[QUOTE="wstfld"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] O is b/c of Manning D had a couple good years...what about all the other years they make the playoffs with a terrible D? I am not not placing Marino as an all-time great b/c of not having a SB win (I understand it is a team game) I am not placing Marino as an all-time great b/c of the making the playoffs recordrawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] All I know is, besides the passing game, the Dolphins had nothing. They couldn't run, their defense was terrible, they were near the bottom of the stats for special teams, etc. Besides Marino, they were pretty bad.BMD004

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] you are comparing him to Jerry Rice now?

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="wstfld"] Well, according to you, they could have made the playoffs because they played Texas, Tennessee and Jacksonville twice a year (the Bills argument). wstfld

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] Why do people always assume that you are making a direct comparison between two things when you make an analogy? That is the escape route. No, listen, the CONCEPT is the same. It is the same thing. They both set tons of records at their colleges, and they were both picked overall around the same spot. They both had good quarterbacks. Yet you say Wayne is ONLY good because of Manning, which is absolutely ridiculous.

BMD004

...going nowhere at this point.

I demonstrated that Manning has it just as bad as Marino did and (almost) always makes the playoffs...Marino made it only a little better than 50% of the time...only went far as a rookie (when it was not about him...same as all rookie QB's)

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] I just showed where Manning had the LAST ranked run game and the 18th ranked D...so same, same...but he always makes the playoffs and has a SB winrawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] But what does that have to do with Manning? The Texans had the 4th ranked offense and the 13th ranked Defense. Pretty damn good. Yet they lost a lot of games. Why? BMD004

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] The Colts are good, you say they have a good O-line, have a great QB, but Addai sucks as 1st round pick -same story for Pats and Maroney My point is that just b/c you dominated HS and college, and you were a 1st round pick does not mean you are a great player. You can have those things and suck, you can have those things and be great on your own, or you can have those things and be great b/c of the system...as is the case here. -it is funny that Collie was their best WR before he got hurt...that Garcon puts up numbers...that Gonzales has (before injury)...etc. Me thinks there are not that many great WR's in the league to have that many on one team (same with Welker, who I love BTW, on the Pats)rawsavon

...going nowhere at this point.

I demonstrated that Manning has it just as bad as Marino did and (almost) always makes the playoffs...Marino made it only a little better than 50% of the time...only went far as a rookie (when it was not about him...same as all rookie QB's)

My point is that how do you automatically make the correlation that the reason that Wayne is good is because of Manning? Ever heard of the fallacy of false cause? Seems to be perfect for this situation.BMD004

...going nowhere at this point.

I demonstrated that Manning has it just as bad as Marino did and (almost) always makes the playoffs...Marino made it only a little better than 50% of the time...only went far as a rookie (when it was not about him...same as all rookie QB's)

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] QB is not that great...just a stats guy like Marino I just discredited your entire argument that Marino did not make the playoffs b/c his run game was bad and D sucked b/c Manning had to deal with the same stuffrawsavon

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"]

...going nowhere at this point.

I demonstrated that Manning has it just as bad as Marino did and (almost) always makes the playoffs...Marino made it only a little better than 50% of the time...only went far as a rookie (when it was not about him...same as all rookie QB's)

rawsavon

[QUOTE="wstfld"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] ...the Texans...fine But the Titans and Jags have been good (not year in and year out)...but they have been good teams for long stretches It is usually ranked as one of the better divisions :?rawsavon

Hmmm....Since the realignment:

• AFC East
• AFC North
• NFC East
• NFC South
• AFC West
• AFC South
• NFC North
• North Jersey Group IV
• WPIAA Group AAA
• NL Central
• WAC
• NFC West

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"]

...going nowhere at this point.

I demonstrated that Manning has it just as bad as Marino did and (almost) always makes the playoffs...Marino made it only a little better than 50% of the time...only went far as a rookie (when it was not about him...same as all rookie QB's)

rawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] 18th ranked D out of 32 teams is not the same as 22 ranked D out of 25. Plus we don't know about special teams, O-line, etc. The Colts are obviously a better overall team than the '86 Dolphins.BMD004

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] That tells me nothing about how you give Peyton Manning all the credit for Reggie Wayne's success with no logical reasoning behind it. You are making a correlation that doesn't exist. You have no control to compare it to.BMD004

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] ...last ranked run game = no help for Manning = opposing D is only focused on stopping Manning. It is hard to have these conversations with fans. I will try another approach. What makes Marino the best?rawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="wstfld"] How? They've only produced two wild card teams since the divisions realigned. wstfld

Hmmm....Since the realignment:

• AFC East
• AFC North
• NFC East
• NFC South
• AFC West
• AFC South
• NFC North
• North Jersey Group IV
• WPIAA Group AAA
• NL Central
• WAC
• NFC West

1. LOL
2. The NFC South and AFC West better?

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] He is the best pure-passer the NFL has ever had. He was on a team with no defense, no run game, no special teams, no team identity, no team chemistry, etc. He still set nearly every single season and career record at the quarterback position. Still managed to make it to a Super Bowl, and still managed to make the team a playoff contender more times than not, despite the fact that without him, they would be the worst team in the league. Once again, he is the best pure-passer in NFL history. BMD004

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] ...like I said 'going nowhere at this point' You like him and have loved him for a long time. Nothing I say will change it...so w/e Marino had HOF receivers too Manning does what Marino did not (make the playoffs) in very similar situationsrawsavon

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] Manning...better D than Marino...but worse run game...so that makes it even. It is the QB's job to make an identity and chemistry. Manning works all off-season to establish chemistry...that was not the case with Marino...everyone hated his ass (that is part of being a QB) Records? ...so that means Marino is not the best...Favre is The Colts would be the worst team as well w/out Manning...yet Manning makes playoffs and will have better statsrawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] No, the Dolphins were dead last in rushing, as well. So no, that doesn't make it even. Dolphins had no chemistry or identity, so it still isn't even. The Colts would not be worse than the worst teams in the NFL if they had an average quarterback. The Dolphins weren't amazing even with the most amazing quarterback in the league at the time. So it would be a safe bet that the Dolphins would have been the worst team in the league without Marino, and the Colts probably wouldn't be. In addition to that, Favre also has the record for most interceptions (by far). Marino doesn't. Favre is in the record books by sheer volume of games and passes thrown.BMD004

[QUOTE="wstfld"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] I counter with the fact that they get beat by the Colts twice a year...it works both ways Rank the divisions over the past several years AFC East AFC North AFC South NFC East NFC North AFC West NFC South NFC Westrawsavon

Hmmm....Since the realignment:

• AFC East
• AFC North
• NFC East
• NFC South
• AFC West
• AFC South
• NFC North
• North Jersey Group IV
• WPIAA Group AAA
• NL Central
• WAC
• NFC West

1. LOL
2. The NFC South and AFC West better?

NFC South has had two different Super Bowl winners and the AFC West has had all of their teams make the playoffs and I think they all may have won a playoff game in this time frame.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] No, the only reason we are going nowhere is because you can't accept the fact that Reggie Wayne is good because Reggie Wayne is good. There is absolutely NO reason to believe he wouldn't be just as good playing for Tom Brady or Favre or Brees or any other decent quarterback.

BMD004

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="wstfld"]

Hmmm....Since the realignment:

• AFC East
• AFC North
• NFC East
• NFC South
• AFC West
• AFC South
• NFC North
• North Jersey Group IV
• WPIAA Group AAA
• NL Central
• WAC
• NFC West

wstfld

1. LOL
2. The NFC South and AFC West better?

NFC South has had two different Super Bowl winners and the AFC West has had all of their teams make the playoffs and I think they all may have won a playoff game in this time frame.

Yeah but the NFC South goes worst to first and back again...teams are good for like 1-2 years and then suck for 5-6
The AFC West has the Raiders and Chiefs

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] No, the Dolphins were dead last in rushing, as well. So no, that doesn't make it even. Dolphins had no chemistry or identity, so it still isn't even. The Colts would not be worse than the worst teams in the NFL if they had an average quarterback. The Dolphins weren't amazing even with the most amazing quarterback in the league at the time. So it would be a safe bet that the Dolphins would have been the worst team in the league without Marino, and the Colts probably wouldn't be. In addition to that, Favre also has the record for most interceptions (by far). Marino doesn't. Favre is in the record books by sheer volume of games and passes thrown.BMD004

[QUOTE="wstfld"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

1. LOL
2. The NFC South and AFC West better?

rawsavon

NFC South has had two different Super Bowl winners and the AFC West has had all of their teams make the playoffs and I think they all may have won a playoff game in this time frame.

Yeah but the NFC South goes worst to first and back again...teams are good for like 1-2 years and then suck for 5-6
The AFC West has the Raiders and Chiefs

They are not having a good year (neither are Denver or SD), but there have been some recent coaching/qb changes and Al Davis will die soon. They have all had success though. The divisions below them have had some permanent clunkers like Houston, Detroit and SF/StL.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="wstfld"]

NFC South has had two different Super Bowl winners and the AFC West has had all of their teams make the playoffs and I think they all may have won a playoff game in this time frame.

wstfld

Yeah but the NFC South goes worst to first and back again...teams are good for like 1-2 years and then suck for 5-6
The AFC West has the Raiders and Chiefs

They are not having a good year (neither are Denver or SD), but there have been some recent coaching/qb changes and Al Davis will die soon. They have all had success though. The divisions below them have had some permanent clunkers like Houston, Detroit and SF/StL.

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] Marino was #1 in pass attempts before Favre...LOL Chemistry is part of being a QB...that is why Manning puts in all that work in the off-season. Marino lacked the leadership part = not an all-time great...just good. (like having a smart general that no troops wants to follow...what is the point)rawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BMD004"] Marino was #1 in pass attempts before Favre... so? My point was that the only reason he is ahead in pass completions is because he has had so many more attempts. BMD004

Joe Montana followed by Johnny Unitas.

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas.

limpbizkit818

Or he was just a great quarterback during a time of very average quarterbacks/passing game. Sorry, I had to say it.

I would still pick Joe Montana though.

Joe Montana. Favre is one of the worst in my opinion...

GD-1369211121

Doug Flutie.

Steve Young, as he is the best QB I've ever actually seen play. I'd probably say Joe Montana but he was before my time.

Steve Young or Ryan Leaf

Steve Young ;D

Steve Young or Ryan Leaf

FierceWarrior

[QUOTE="FierceWarrior"]

Steve Young or Ryan Leaf

rawsavon

Brett Favre.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="FierceWarrior"]

Steve Young or Ryan Leaf

wstfld

Montana.