Why are there people against the death penalty?

This is such an idiotic argument. Do we kill a lady who kills a rapist in self defense? shades of grey people. Viloence only begets more violence. Eye for an eye only keeps the circle going. Look at the middle east. Maybe things would be better there if not every attack was followed by a attack,suicide bombing leading to missles leading to more suicide bombers what have you not.

As for the prison argument,we happen to have this thing in our laws called NO CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT. Prison is meant to segeregate the dangerous from society,not dehumanize. And as someone who has been to jail,it is not no cakewalk,and people who think it is are as ignorant as people who think its one big butt rape.

[QUOTE="aaronmullan"]People think they deserve a second chance.Jandurin

[QUOTE="Zeromus1337"]

Because killing that person is the easy way out for them.

I hate to sound like this, but that person should have to be in prison and live with the guilt for the rest of his/her life and suffer.

devildogcollier

ohh yeah...live in prison where they have the RIGHT to watch tv and work out, and go outside, and play cards and such, and are given 3 square meals a day and a bed to sleep in every night......PRISON IS A JOKE in most places... Bleeding Hearts and Mothers of America are turning this Country to Crap.... SUFFER???? HA keep dreaming buddy

You sound like you're jealous of prisoners.

People kill for a reason. Theres no such thing as EVIL! Humans are born with major flaws from day one were ruled by our genetics and by our upbringing. Who ever came up with the idea that humans have free will was giving us FAR too much credit. Our ability to control ourselves and make informed decisions is limited, at best, to a very narrow range of situations. Most of us live in a world with few extremes. Due to our genes we dont suffer from extreme emotions. Due to our upbringings we are taught how to behave to keep the society functioning, and most of us are capable of understanding these concepts easily enough. Other people however arent so lucky!!!!

When someone goes to commit an attrocity do you really think they know what they are doing? Do you think their thought processes in any way resemble what you or I (average "sane" people, I assume)think in those times?Its easy to say that you wouldnt do that if you were in their shoes .... but the truth is that you would! If you had their exact genetic and chemical disposition, combined with their exact upbringing and were faced with exactly the same situation as them you would do exactly what they did. Because you would be them, and thats the only time you can ever fairly compare.

Murders and such are commited primarily because of anger (or a similarly strong emotion), a physical condition (which some people are far more succeptible to than others due to genetics and upbringing)caused by chemicals in the body which make a person less consciously in control of their actions. Alternatively there are psychopaths, whose brains from birth simply do not work like ours. Can we really blame people for acting the way they were (to put it in technical terms) built and then programmed to act?

Personally I blame society, and I blame God (except since I dont believe in him I blame evolution for being, understandably, a flawed process). I do not blame the individuals and therefore cannot condone killing them. Im not saying they should be removed from society to a place where they cant hurt again, but killing them? No thanks.

Genia

Genia

[QUOTE="Teenaged"][QUOTE="devildogcollier"]i dont mean to sound like a total jerk....Genia

Jesus Wept I cant believe how long it took for someone to point this out.

Personally I blame society, and I blame God (except since I dont believe in him I blame evolution for being, understandably, a flawed process). I do not blame the individuals and therefore cannot condone killing them. Im not saying they should be removed from society to a place where they cant hurt again, but killing them? No thanks.

Genia

I believe in evil as much as I do unevil. Yes, I believe those who commit atrocities know they are doing wrong, and they do it anyway, for whatever reason they're doing it. My thought processes are in no way "average" or "normal", and yet I'm able to be "sane" and "productive". If murderers can't control themselves, then they need to be put down. Yes, I can blame them, and even if I couldn't, I would still think they need to be removed. Yes, let's blame society :|. That's the solution.Jandurin

The reason to turn to society is not to blame it just for the sake of blaming something other than ourselves for what we become. The reason is to see the problem (the root of it) and fix it.Teenaged

People are trying to over complicate this. Its quite simple actually. 2 reasons why the death penalty is wrong.

1. You put a murderer in jail for life, he suffers. You give him the death penalty, his family suffers. What did his family do to deserve this? You are now victimizing the innocent.

2. The law is supposed to bring justice not vengeance.

I do not blame the individuals and therefore cannot condone killing them.Genia

Wait... what? :? How can anyone not blame an individual for actions committed by that individual? Sure, there are other contributing factors... but the ultimate responsibility MUST fall upon the individual.

People are trying to over complicate this. Its quite simple actually. 2 reasons why the death penalty is wrong.

1. You put a murderer in jail for life, he suffers. You give him the death penalty, his family suffers. What did his family do to deserve this? You are now victimizing the innocent.

The law is supposed to bring justice not vengeance.

II_Seraphim_II

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"]

People are trying to over complicate this. Its quite simple actually. 2 reasons why the death penalty is wrong.

1. You put a murderer in jail for life, he suffers. You give him the death penalty, his family suffers. What did his family do to deserve this? You are now victimizing the innocent.

The law is supposed to bring justice not vengeance.

Jandurin

I think the big question if you support it is this. Shoplifting cut the hand off,they wont steal again!!! Castration for sex criminals!! Oh wait,what if they are female,oh I know,sew it up. And we might as well cut their hands off too,never know what or who they might be touching. I mean,do not be a hypocrite,if were going to do an eye for an lets bring it back and really do it. And while were at how about stoning people for their sexuality,or color, or religion, or hell just for being different!!!

because folks,the death penalty is the same damn thing.

You put a murderer in jail for life, he suffers.II_Seraphim_II

So I'll ask again: if the goal is to make the guilty suffer, why not really make them suffer and go after them Spanish Inquisition style?

I am for the death penalty.

What do you mean? Why should punishing innocent people matter? I thought that was pretty obvious :?II_Seraphim_II

I think the big question if you support it is this. Shoplifting cut the hand off,they wont steal again!!! Castration for sex criminals!! Oh wait,what if they are female,oh I know,sew it up. And we might as well cut their hands off too,never know what or who they might be touching. I mean,do not be a hypocrite,if were going to do an eye for an lets bring it back and really do it. And while were at how about stoning people for their sexuality,or color, or religion, or hell just for being different!!!

because folks,the death penalty is the same damn thing.

mattykovax

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]The reason to turn to society is not to blame it just for the sake of blaming something other than ourselves for what we become. The reason is to see the problem (the root of it) and fix it.Jandurin

Why is it that immigrants mostly commit crimes? Because they are inherently evil? Or because of the way they were being treated by the locals?

And if you deny the connection between opposing behavior and a consequent action, I will tell you that there is more to actions than logic. There are also emotions, emotions which are not invoked by the person's will, but by his interaction with others. The reason why any interaction might lead to a negative outcome is not to the choice of the doer of that action but relies on the conditions in which his/her views were formulated. We are all subject to the conditions around us when we are still mush and young.

Again this is not to justify those actions, but to face the things that cause them. Will you deny that a proper education (which is provided by no nation imo and my limited knowledge) will greatly help in this situation?

[QUOTE="BananaNuts"]Why shouldn't a killer be killed?BiancaDK

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"]What do you mean? Why should punishing innocent people matter? I thought that was pretty obvious :?Jandurin

[QUOTE="mattykovax"]

I think the big question if you support it is this. Shoplifting cut the hand off,they wont steal again!!! Castration for sex criminals!! Oh wait,what if they are female,oh I know,sew it up. And we might as well cut their hands off too,never know what or who they might be touching. I mean,do not be a hypocrite,if were going to do an eye for an lets bring it back and really do it. And while were at how about stoning people for their sexuality,or color, or religion, or hell just for being different!!!

because folks,the death penalty is the same damn thing.

Jandurin

A society cannot be 100% successful, or at least at the current state isn't (by far). Besides society is not just the non-living laws and the government. It's the interaction with other people and a tons oflinks that lead one influence to a result. There are many things at work besides the will of the individual. We don't function separately; we function in accordance withother people's behaviour.

Why is it that immigrants mostly commit crimes? Because they are inherently evil? Or because of the way they were being treated by the locals?

And if you deny the connection between opposing behavior and a consequent action, I will tell you that there is more to actions than logic. There are also emotions, emotions which are not invoked by the person's will, but by his interaction with others. The reason why any interaction might lead to a negative outcome is not to the choice of the doer of that action but relies on the conditions in which his/her views were formulated. We are all subject to the conditions around us when we are still mush and young.

Again this is not to justify those actions, but to face the things that cause them. Will you deny that a proper education (which is provided by no nation imo and my limited knowledge) will greatly help in this situation?

Teenaged

Nobody in their right mind would challenge the notion that poverty, lack of education, etc. are directly linked to increased crime rates, but that's entirely irrelevant to the question of which types of punishment are acceptable in a civilized society.

A society cannot be 100% successful, or at least at the current state isn't (by far). Besides society is not just the non-living laws and the government. It's the interaction with other people and a tons oflinks that lead one influence to a result. There are many things at work besides the will of the individual. We don't function separately; we function in accordance withother people's behaviour.

Why is it that immigrants mostly commit crimes? Because they are inherently evil? Or because of the way they were being treated by the locals?

And if you deny the connection between opposing behavior and a consequent action, I will tell you that there is more to actions than logic. There are also emotions, emotions which are not invoked by the person's will, but by his interaction with others. The reason why any interaction might lead to a negative outcome is not to the choice of the doer of that action but relies on the conditions in which his/her views were formulated. We are all subject to the conditions around us when we are still mush and young.

Again this is not to justify those actions, but to face the things that cause them. Will you deny that a proper education (which is provided by no nation imo and my limited knowledge) will greatly help in this situation?

Teenaged

So inversely its the victim's family fault for caring that their son got murdered? In fact, its the victims fault for meeting the right criteria for the murderer to pick them. Everything is your fault. What? You got shot in a robbery? Well its your fault you were in the bank! Your plane crashed because the pilot was drunk? Your fault!, you shouldnt have booked the flight! What's that? someone shot you? No pressing charges there, you shouldnt have been there!II_Seraphim_II

Unless you really believe in the death as PUNISHMENT anglemattykovax

Of course punishment is the focus. That's why it's called a death penalty.

But it is the same thing. Your killing the killer so they cannot kill again,your removing the hand so they cannot steal again. same exact concept. Unless you really believe in the death as PUNISHMENT angle,and considering no one knows what happens after death,maybe they are escaping punishment.mattykovax

A society can not be 100% successful because of the individuals. Not that I dislike individuality, but unfortunately, some people deviate too far. Should we allow someone to kill, just because it's what they like to do? Or do you believe that people that kill don't actually enjoy what they're doing? Emotions are controllable. And they're dependent on the connections you've chosen to form. Sure, someone can piss you off, but you choose to be pissed off. Also what Oleg said. :PJandurin

And no, oleg, it's not irrelevant because we can all say it's THIS but it's nice to explain WHY...

Hey I didn't say that we should let them free and wild. But don't you think that the death penalty simply answers to someone who wants revenge? Does revenge in the end benefit society?

And no, oleg, it's not irrelevant because we can all say it's THIS but it's nice to explain WHY...

Teenaged

And no, oleg, it's not irrelevant because we can all say it's THIS but it's nice to explain WHY...

Teenaged

It most certainly is irrelevant. The death penalty topic addresses the question of how to deal with offenders. The poverty, education, etc. topic addresses the question of how can we reduce the number of offenders. They're two entirely different issues and have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]And no, oleg, it's not irrelevant because we can all say it's THIS but it's nice to explain WHY...

Oleg_Huzwog

It most certainly is irrelevant. The death penalty topic addresses the question of how to deal with offenders. The poverty, education, etc. topic addresses the question of how can we reduce the number of offenders. They're two entirely different issues and have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

I used to agree with the TOC, because I used to feel that it was a suitable punishment for certain cases of murder. Partially because some of these prisons don't seem the worst place to be. I wish we would have serious reform of these prisons so that it's practically run like a military and have the removal of inmate socializing, conjugal visits, cable TV, video games, etc. There are many stories of criminals that REALLY learn how to be criminals because now they are locked up with professional criminals.

But fully supporting capital punishment is also having 100% faith in the justice system. There are stories of people being released from jail after DNA evidence clears them, and some of those cases are a result of a crooked judicial system and/or poor police work, bad or crooked judges, etc.

I want better prison reform and punshiment and no longer support capital punishment just due to the fact the system isn't 100% accurate in those cases.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

Hey I didn't say that we should let them free and wild. But don't you think that the death penalty simply answers to someone who wants revenge? Does revenge in the end benefit society?

And no, oleg, it's not irrelevant because we can all say it's THIS but it's nice to explain WHY...

Jandurin

Well then if it this why not restate your opinion and add "/thread" ;) There's no point in going if that's the case right?Teenaged

[QUOTE="mattykovax"]Unless you really believe in the death as PUNISHMENT angleOleg_Huzwog

Of course punishment is the focus. That's why it's called a death penalty.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

Hey I didn't say that we should let them free and wild. But don't you think that the death penalty simply answers to someone who wants revenge? Does revenge in the end benefit society?

And no, oleg, it's not irrelevant because we can all say it's THIS but it's nice to explain WHY...

Jandurin

It's repeatedly been established that the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent. Rehabilitation certainly isn't an option. And they are removed from the rest of society just by being in prison.

So what else could it be?

It's repeatedly been established that the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent.MrGeezer

A

[QUOTE="b3yondstupidity"]An eye for an eye..Can make the world go blind.Jandurin

And it's not true because never in recorded history that it has been followed has the whole world ended up blind or even a country, city, or even village!

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]Well then if it this why not restate your opinion and add "/thread" ;) There's no point in going if that's the case right?Jandurin

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]It's repeatedly been established that the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent.Jandurin

[QUOTE="Oleg_Huzwog"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]And no, oleg, it's not irrelevant because we can all say it's THIS but it's nice to explain WHY...

Teenaged

It most certainly is irrelevant. The death penalty topic addresses the question of how to deal with offenders. The poverty, education, etc. topic addresses the question of how can we reduce the number of offenders. They're two entirely different issues and have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

Those issues do need attention, but in parallel, not as the alternative. You can't disregard the individual offender, unless you are also willing to disregard such basic principles as personal responsibility and free will.

removal of inmate socializing, conjugal visits, cable TV, video games, etc. flazzle

[QUOTE="Jandurin"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"]It's repeatedly been established that the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent.Teenaged

I used to agree with the TOC, because I used to feel that it was a suitable punishment for certain cases of murder. Partially because some of these prisons don't seem the worst place to be. I wish we would have serious reform of these prisons so that it's practically run like a military and have the removal of inmate socializing, conjugal visits, cable TV, video games, etc. There are many stories of criminals that REALLY learn how to be criminals because now they are locked up with professional criminals.

But fully supporting capital punishment is also having 100% faith in the justice system. There are stories of people being released from jail after DNA evidence clears them, and some of those cases are a result of a crooked judicial system and/or poor police work, bad or crooked judges, etc.

I want better prison reform and punshiment and no longer support capital punishment just due to the fact the system isn't 100% accurate in those cases.

flazzle

I don't recall the name, but I remember hearing about one guy who spent 10 years on death row for a murder. He was finally released after it was discovered that he was locked up in a jail cell when the murder was committed.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"][QUOTE="Oleg_Huzwog"]

It most certainly is irrelevant. The death penalty topic addresses the question of how to deal with offenders. The poverty, education, etc. topic addresses the question of how can we reduce the number of offenders. They're two entirely different issues and have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

Oleg_Huzwog

Those issues do need attention, but in parallel, not as the alternative. You can't disregard the individual offender, unless you are also willing to disregard such basic principles as personal responsibility and free will.

The death penalty is too much of an extreme measure and a cruel one imo for the reasons I mentioned.

Cuz violence+violence not equal to peace.

In other words

if a murder is murdered then the murderer who murdered that murdered deserves to be murdered as well and the murderer who murders the muderer who murdered the other muderer also deserves to be murdered

i think u got my point by now :D

my head is spinning after that sentence :D :o

[QUOTE="Teenaged"][QUOTE="Jandurin"] Says who?Jandurin

Cuz violence+violence not equal to peace.

In other words

if a murder is murdered then the murderer who murdered that murdered deserves to be murdered as well and the murderer who murders the muderer who murdered the other muderer also deserves to be murdered

i think u got my point by now :D

my head is spinning after that sentence :D :o

gamerknot

I don't remember for sure but I think it had to do with a comparison of crime rates between states in the USA who have the death penalty with those that don't.Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]I don't remember for sure but I think it had to do with a comparison of crime rates between states in the USA who have the death penalty with those that don't.Jandurin

[QUOTE="flazzle"]

removal of inmate socializing, conjugal visits, cable TV, video games, etc. mattykovax

I am not dreaming. I am very well informed. I have watched many documentaries on the prison system and the way of life in many prison systems.

I didn't say all prisons are like what I said, but they are not as few as you would like to believe. And of course i know what happens with the causes of lockdowns and riots. There are different ways to pacify them. People can live without video games and tv and extensive solicialization. In fact, many free people live this way today.

In fact, many documentaries I watched that follow prisoners after their release 'WANT TO GO BACK IN' because they had it so good there. Prison should not be a place ANYONE wants to return to. But since they are coddled like you suggest they should be, I can see why this is.

Besides, think of it that way Jand: USA has the death penalty in some states and yet crime rates are high.

BUT many European countries including Greece do not use it and their crime rates are (even slightly) lower.

This means that the death penalty has no considerable effect and is simply the last resort of punishment in a country that has many social issues, mainly due to the many races that live in it, the economical power it has gathered, the culture it has developed etc.