Why do some people still deny evolution?

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seabiscuit8686

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#401 seabiscuit8686
Member since 2005 • 2862 Posts

[QUOTE="seabiscuit8686"](we are estimating ~ 15 years between generations, on average, of all species ever to exist on earth)
Guybrush_3

just wondering where did you get this number?

Obviously early organisms have a much higher rate of reproduction and genetic replication, but once you start entering the realm of multi-celled organisms, this slows down substancially. Look at humans (I know, a very modern example). You are looking at a minimum of 15 or so years between birth and having a new child. Elephants, wild animals ect, are often more - though some have litters ect. so the genetic mutation probability goes up with those that have multiple offspring at once. Even if you lower that rate to
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#402 seabiscuit8686
Member since 2005 • 2862 Posts
[QUOTE="seabiscuit8686"]

So if the earth is 4.5 billion years old, that gives us approximately 4500000000/15 = (we are estimating ~ 15 years between generations, on average, of all species ever to exist on earth). That gives us 300 million generations to get from dust to current forms of living matter, with setbacks every 65 million years (the solar system is moving throughout the Milky Way, and recent evidence shows that once every approximately 65 million years, we enter an area of the Milky Way that is ripe for extinctions (the tail of the Milky Way as it is also moving throughout the universe).

First mistake: applying a human timescale to every species ever. Also, there are no setbacks. 65 million years ago, the dinos went extinct and allowed the mammals to take over the Earth. Mammals survived, thus making them the superior creatures in the eyes of natural selection.

So step one is to realize that a simple adaptation such as eskimos having squinty eyes due to them living in the arctic where sun reflects off the ice into the eyes, happen constantly. No one can deny this. There is a sharp distinction between this adaptation and the genetic mutation that causes species jumps. Imagine with me that we have a few cell organism. Radiation from the sun somehow mutates a gene to have a different DNA sequence that causes an RNA strand to create a gene that creates a protein that makes lung tissue in an aquatic animal. What do you think the probablilty of a gene mutation like that is? Also, what do you think the probability of that gene appearing in a fish so readily, that it doesn't disappear over the next few generations simply because there is no need for it. Fish didn't evolve lungs and then instantly use them. That means survival of the fitest did not apply. Early lungs would be non functioning (extra appendages). That means, there is a probability that these would disappear because they did not help that creature in any way.

Not true. Early forms of appendages are usually transitional forms of other appendages (such as fins to feet). Also mutation occur at an incredibly rapid rate. Most are either corrected, don't do anything, or reduce the chances of survival. But it only takes a single lucky nucleotide placement to give an organism a HUGE advantage.

So really, we are looking at a mathematical probability. What is the probability that within 300,000,000 generations, there was a genetic mutation that occurred at exactly the right time in history, and exactly the functionality necessary for the survival and eventual thriving of a species.

This is why reproduction produces more offspring than can be supported by the environment. This is where natural selection comes in. Plus, there are many ways that an organism can adapt to give it an advantage, just because it turned out one way doesn't mean that was the only possible solution.

Not that great. Sure it is easy to take a virus and prove evolution as they reproduce very quickly. But once you get into multicelled organisms and talk of gene mutation spawning such things as organs and lungs, you really get into probabilities much to high for the current time frame.

This is why most of the more recent evolution has had to do with speciation rather than single celled organisms going to multicelled organisms.

Next is the fact that scientists don't have a clear picture of what was happening in history. If the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and scientists have found even 100,000 unique locations based on different times in history (which isn't true in the least), that gives them a snapshot of only .002% of all of history.....hmmm, it then makes sense that they can complete the history of all species with that much information. It's so nice to hear they have so much data. Add into that the fact that when they do make a discovery, it is based on a specific location and sitution in history. If you found fossils from the everglades today 350 million years from now, you would be pretty sure that evolution had only reached the reptilian stage because that is all you would see. You would see crocodiles, alligators, fish and sea creatures in a swamp land. You see such a small part of the world.....so actually, your .002% view is only of .002% of the earth at taht moment. So really you only have a .0000004% view of anything.....

This is why there's more than just fossil evidence for evolution. And likely, you would find other fossils from some other organisms in the same time period in other locations. And even despite the lacking fossil record we STILL have plenty of transitional forms that document subtle changes in the structure of species.

So if you add together the fact that the probabilities of genetic mutations and the fact that scientists actually have no idea what happened over 99.9% of history, you have a pretty AMAZING theory called evolution. My logic tells me not to believe things that are so horribly supported. (I have other reasons, but I am off to bed)/

Mutations are inherently random, you can't calculate probabilities, just averages based on past data. Do you even know how many different ways a mutation can occur? Also, I'll say this again. You left out a lot of evidence. Just because you're a physicist does not make you well informed in all areas of science, nor does it make you unbiased.

But go ahead and blindly agree with what "scientists" have to say without thinking for yourselves.....oh wait, that is exactly what you say about creationists.

I don't blindly agree with scientists, because I see the strong evidence they put forth for evolution and accept it. Also, people usually bash creationists for blindly accepting a hypothesis without any evidence, which is pretty different from evolution.

metroidfood

Speaking of "blindly agreeing" with something - you fit the bill perfectly. You honestly think that "random genetic mutations" don't follow the laws of probability? Also, even if you adjust the "generation" from 15, probabilities on this scale only increase when you decrease the factor (the 15) by significant proportions. Decrease it to one, you still have only 4.5 billion generations (and we all know the EARTH is 4.5 billion years old, not life on earth, which is much more modern....we are talking perhaps less than 1 billion years old - so your point is mute). More than just fossil evidence.....true - enough to fill in the gaps that are left (omg there are no gaps!!!!) because there are plenty of "time gaps" that are bloody significant. If you can tell me that you know what was happening at specific times in history, I will call you ignorant. So you don't blindly agree with scientists, you just look at what they have and decide that Occam's Razor is always true. Your "evidence" is basically like taking two words out of a million page book and saying that you understand how everything works because you found some of the linking words - like the! People who say that the genome and human DNA sequences vs. other animals is too similar not to have a common ancestor, did you consider that perhaps some of these DNA strains are important for life - aka without them, things aren't able to exist in their current form (therefore anything without those would not exist). Now you can look at it like there was a mutation that allowed all to have that DNA and then everyone branched from that, or that everyone had that from the beginning. Either way, the argument comes down to this - do you believe that life was placed on this earth in its "modern" form, or do you believe that a random virus landed on earth and spawned where we came from - and neither have any "legitimate" evidence. One last thing "Not true. Early forms of appendages are usually transitional forms of other appendages (such as fins to feet). Also mutation occur at an incredibly rapid rate. Most are either corrected, don't do anything, or reduce the chances of survival. But it only takes a single lucky nucleotide placement to give an organism a HUGE advantage. " Early forms of appendages were not functioning. A mutation of an early lung did not take in oxygen from air and therefore would not have any significant impact on that species. For example, I have throat cancer (a genetic mutation that causes the uncontrollable growth of cells), those cells are not special or unique, they don't create a function that helps me survive. But maybe, someday, over billions of years, one would......but then you have an early form of lung. Well then that early form of lung needs even more time to modernize So we get back to my original point that there isn't enough TIME to have done this......... And I stated I was a physicist simply because everyone was saying that if you use logic, you would agree with evolution. Physicists are the definition of logical thinkers (well most), so I was denouncing that fact that all logically people inevitably believe in evolution - not trying to add "cred" to myself.
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ithilgore2006

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#403 ithilgore2006
Member since 2006 • 10494 Posts

Wow, I guess I am the complete opposite of what you guys are stereotyping. I graduated with a physics major and am currently working as an engineer. I understand evolution very well and I have one of the most "logical" minds of anyone I know. Instead of saying that logic proves evolution, I say logic actually disproves it (or at least makes it seem rediculous). Logically and biologically, evolution isn't grounded in fact, more on assumption - and we all know what they say about assumptions. Notice I will never say that evolution 100% didn't happen, nor should anyone, nor should anyone say that it 100% did happen, as none of us were there. And that is my first point. Scientists say that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, and as a physicist, I tend to believe this (though again, because we weren't there, we are under the assumption that the period after the big bang held the same laws of physics as we see currently, which new research says probably isn't realistic and it probably had laws well beyond what we currently understand - aka, who know how long intersteller dust needed to spin and compress in order to start creating fusion and suns.....)

So if the earth is 4.5 billion years old, that gives us approximately 4500000000/15 = (we are estimating ~ 15 years between generations, on average, of all species ever to exist on earth). That gives us 300 million generations to get from dust to current forms of living matter, with setbacks every 65 million years (the solar system is moving throughout the Milky Way, and recent evidence shows that once every approximately 65 million years, we enter an area of the Milky Way that is ripe for extinctions (the tail of the Milky Way as it is also moving throughout the universe).

So step one is to realize that a simple adaptation such as eskimos having squinty eyes due to them living in the arctic where sun reflects off the ice into the eyes, happen constantly. No one can deny this. There is a sharp distinction between this adaptation and the genetic mutation that causes species jumps. Imagine with me that we have a few cell organism. Radiation from the sun somehow mutates a gene to have a different DNA sequence that causes an RNA strand to create a gene that creates a protein that makes lung tissue in an aquatic animal. What do you think the probablilty of a gene mutation like that is? Also, what do you think the probability of that gene appearing in a fish so readily, that it doesn't disappear over the next few generations simply because there is no need for it. Fish didn't evolve lungs and then instantly use them. That means survival of the fitest did not apply. Early lungs would be non functioning (extra appendages). That means, there is a probability that these would disappear because they did not help that creature in any way.

So really, we are looking at a mathematical probability. What is the probability that within 300,000,000 generations, there was a genetic mutation that occurred at exactly the right time in history, and exactly the functionality necessary for the survival and eventual thriving of a species.

Not that great. Sure it is easy to take a virus and prove evolution as they reproduce very quickly. But once you get into multicelled organisms and talk of gene mutation spawning such things as organs and lungs, you really get into probabilities much to high for the current time frame.

Next is the fact that scientists don't have a clear picture of what was happening in history. If the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and scientists have found even 100,000 unique locations based on different times in history (which isn't true in the least), that gives them a snapshot of only .002% of all of history.....hmmm, it then makes sense that they can complete the history of all species with that much information. It's so nice to hear they have so much data. Add into that the fact that when they do make a discovery, it is based on a specific location and sitution in history. If you found fossils from the everglades today 350 million years from now, you would be pretty sure that evolution had only reached the reptilian stage because that is all you would see. You would see crocodiles, alligators, fish and sea creatures in a swamp land. You see such a small part of the world.....so actually, your .002% view is only of .002% of the earth at taht moment. So really you only have a .0000004% view of anything.....

So if you add together the fact that the probabilities of genetic mutations and the fact that scientists actually have no idea what happened over 99.9% of history, you have a pretty AMAZING theory called evolution. My logic tells me not to believe things that are so horribly supported. (I have other reasons, but I am off to bed)/

But go ahead and blindly agree with what "scientists" have to say without thinking for yourselves.....oh wait, that is exactly what you say about creationists.

seabiscuit8686
A virus? Viruses don't reproduce, they replicate. Neither do they evolve like "proper" organisms do, because they're only half alive in the first place. I believe you mean Bacteria. And using "probability" in matters like this, is pointless. I could calculate the probability for someone being hit by lightning, and say "hah! it's low! This person couldn't have been hit by lightning", but that woudn't chnage the fact that it happened. So that's out the window. Now, as to you saying adaptions would have to formed complete, otherwise they would be useless, take the almighty example, the bacterium. It's flagellum is what it uses most for movement, and creationists said it couldn't have formed complete, but it would have been usesless if it had formed bit by bit over many generations, so evolution was wrong. Unfortunately for them, scientists have studied to evolution of the bacterium, and it's flagellum, and they've shown every piece of it that wod have evolved over time, had a different function, no part of it was ever useless, and it eventually grew to form it's modern flagellum. And please refrain from quoting "scientists" like that, it's wrong to try and imply they don't deserve any respect. You may have decided, for whatever reason, that evolution can't be true, but those thousands of intelligent scientists have decided, from the evidence, that evolution deserves the title of Theory, the highest it can go in science, and in the realm of pure fact. They have no hidden agendas, no preconcieved conclusions, they're only seeking to further knowledge, and they deserve the highest respect for their work.
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Dark-Sithious

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#404 Dark-Sithious
Member since 2008 • 3914 Posts

I once read an article or list on the internet, from the early 1900, I think it was 1920's but I'm not sure. The list, written by a physicist If I recall, was an extensive one, filled with what it claimed was mathematical and logical reasons why evolution could not have happened. I have tried to find this list again, as I would like to read it now to see if it holds any ground, but with no luck. I can't find it on the intrawebz, have anyone else heard of this, I would love a link :P

Anyways, one of the Arguments, was that if humans had existed for X numbers of years in accordance to evolutionary theories, the world population would have exceeded it's current number thousands of years ago. I don't actually know if this holds any water, but I would love to some calculations! :D

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#405 tony2077ca
Member since 2005 • 5242 Posts
the way they were raised or religion pick one i for one belive that evolution is real
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#406 ithilgore2006
Member since 2006 • 10494 Posts

I once read an article or list on the internet, from the early 1900, I think it was 1920's but I'm not sure. The list, written by a physicist If I recall, was an extensive one, filled with what it claimed was mathematical and logical reasons why evolution could not have happened. I have tried to find this list again, as I would like to read it now to see if it holds any ground, but with no luck. I can't find it on the intrawebz, have anyone else heard of this, I would love a link :P

Anyways, one of the Arguments, was that if humans had existed for X numbers of years in accordance to evolutionary theories, the world population would have exceeded it's current number thousands of years ago. I don't actually know if this holds any water, but I would love to some calculations! :D

Dark-Sithious
That sounds hilariously dumb. I would love to see it.
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#407 dsmccracken
Member since 2003 • 7307 Posts
[QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"]

I once read an article or list on the internet, from the early 1900, I think it was 1920's but I'm not sure. The list, written by a physicist If I recall, was an extensive one, filled with what it claimed was mathematical and logical reasons why evolution could not have happened. I have tried to find this list again, as I would like to read it now to see if it holds any ground, but with no luck. I can't find it on the intrawebz, have anyone else heard of this, I would love a link :P

Anyways, one of the Arguments, was that if humans had existed for X numbers of years in accordance to evolutionary theories, the world population would have exceeded it's current number thousands of years ago. I don't actually know if this holds any water, but I would love to some calculations! :D

I don't know about a half-remembered calculation, but as for the population numbers, I'd imagine there WOULD be a lot more of us, were it not for the never-ending cycle of starvation and plague (and other disasters both natural and man-made) that humans fall victim to.
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#408 Dark-Sithious
Member since 2008 • 3914 Posts

So I found out that the world population doubles roughly every 42 years.

So let's say mankind is 50,000 years old, which is a modest number.

50,000/42= 1190

Bah, where is my damn calculator. Well somebody take 2^1190

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#409 seabiscuit8686
Member since 2005 • 2862 Posts
[QUOTE="seabiscuit8686"]

Wow, I guess I am the complete opposite of what you guys are stereotyping. I graduated with a physics major and am currently working as an engineer. I understand evolution very well and I have one of the most "logical" minds of anyone I know. Instead of saying that logic proves evolution, I say logic actually disproves it (or at least makes it seem rediculous). Logically and biologically, evolution isn't grounded in fact, more on assumption - and we all know what they say about assumptions. Notice I will never say that evolution 100% didn't happen, nor should anyone, nor should anyone say that it 100% did happen, as none of us were there. And that is my first point. Scientists say that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, and as a physicist, I tend to believe this (though again, because we weren't there, we are under the assumption that the period after the big bang held the same laws of physics as we see currently, which new research says probably isn't realistic and it probably had laws well beyond what we currently understand - aka, who know how long intersteller dust needed to spin and compress in order to start creating fusion and suns.....)

So if the earth is 4.5 billion years old, that gives us approximately 4500000000/15 = (we are estimating ~ 15 years between generations, on average, of all species ever to exist on earth). That gives us 300 million generations to get from dust to current forms of living matter, with setbacks every 65 million years (the solar system is moving throughout the Milky Way, and recent evidence shows that once every approximately 65 million years, we enter an area of the Milky Way that is ripe for extinctions (the tail of the Milky Way as it is also moving throughout the universe).

So step one is to realize that a simple adaptation such as eskimos having squinty eyes due to them living in the arctic where sun reflects off the ice into the eyes, happen constantly. No one can deny this. There is a sharp distinction between this adaptation and the genetic mutation that causes species jumps. Imagine with me that we have a few cell organism. Radiation from the sun somehow mutates a gene to have a different DNA sequence that causes an RNA strand to create a gene that creates a protein that makes lung tissue in an aquatic animal. What do you think the probablilty of a gene mutation like that is? Also, what do you think the probability of that gene appearing in a fish so readily, that it doesn't disappear over the next few generations simply because there is no need for it. Fish didn't evolve lungs and then instantly use them. That means survival of the fitest did not apply. Early lungs would be non functioning (extra appendages). That means, there is a probability that these would disappear because they did not help that creature in any way.

So really, we are looking at a mathematical probability. What is the probability that within 300,000,000 generations, there was a genetic mutation that occurred at exactly the right time in history, and exactly the functionality necessary for the survival and eventual thriving of a species.

Not that great. Sure it is easy to take a virus and prove evolution as they reproduce very quickly. But once you get into multicelled organisms and talk of gene mutation spawning such things as organs and lungs, you really get into probabilities much to high for the current time frame.

Next is the fact that scientists don't have a clear picture of what was happening in history. If the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and scientists have found even 100,000 unique locations based on different times in history (which isn't true in the least), that gives them a snapshot of only .002% of all of history.....hmmm, it then makes sense that they can complete the history of all species with that much information. It's so nice to hear they have so much data. Add into that the fact that when they do make a discovery, it is based on a specific location and sitution in history. If you found fossils from the everglades today 350 million years from now, you would be pretty sure that evolution had only reached the reptilian stage because that is all you would see. You would see crocodiles, alligators, fish and sea creatures in a swamp land. You see such a small part of the world.....so actually, your .002% view is only of .002% of the earth at taht moment. So really you only have a .0000004% view of anything.....

So if you add together the fact that the probabilities of genetic mutations and the fact that scientists actually have no idea what happened over 99.9% of history, you have a pretty AMAZING theory called evolution. My logic tells me not to believe things that are so horribly supported. (I have other reasons, but I am off to bed)/

But go ahead and blindly agree with what "scientists" have to say without thinking for yourselves.....oh wait, that is exactly what you say about creationists.

ithilgore2006
A virus? Viruses don't reproduce, they replicate. Neither do they evolve like "proper" organisms do, because they're only half alive in the first place. I believe you mean Bacteria. And using "probability" in matters like this, is pointless. I could calculate the probability for someone being hit by lightning, and say "hah! it's low! This person couldn't have been hit by lightning", but that woudn't chnage the fact that it happened. So that's out the window. Now, as to you saying adaptions would have to formed complete, otherwise they would be useless, take the almighty example, the bacterium. It's flagellum is what it uses most for movement, and creationists said it couldn't have formed complete, but it would have been usesless if it had formed bit by bit over many generations, so evolution was wrong. Unfortunately for them, scientists have studied to evolution of the bacterium, and it's flagellum, and they've shown every piece of it that wod have evolved over time, had a different function, no part of it was ever useless, and it eventually grew to form it's modern flagellum. And please refrain from quoting "scientists" like that, it's wrong to try and imply they don't deserve any respect. You may have decided, for whatever reason, that evolution can't be true, but those thousands of intelligent scientists have decided, from the evidence, that evolution deserves the title of Theory, the highest it can go in science, and in the realm of pure fact. They have no hidden agendas, no preconcieved conclusions, they're only seeking to further knowledge, and they deserve the highest respect for their work.

Again, you are using the "misconception" or at least preconception that it happened as a basis of avoiding the majority of my argument - probability - congratulations
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#410 seabiscuit8686
Member since 2005 • 2862 Posts
[QUOTE="seabiscuit8686"]

Wow, I guess I am the complete opposite of what you guys are stereotyping. I graduated with a physics major and am currently working as an engineer. I understand evolution very well and I have one of the most "logical" minds of anyone I know. Instead of saying that logic proves evolution, I say logic actually disproves it (or at least makes it seem rediculous). Logically and biologically, evolution isn't grounded in fact, more on assumption - and we all know what they say about assumptions. Notice I will never say that evolution 100% didn't happen, nor should anyone, nor should anyone say that it 100% did happen, as none of us were there. And that is my first point. Scientists say that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, and as a physicist, I tend to believe this (though again, because we weren't there, we are under the assumption that the period after the big bang held the same laws of physics as we see currently, which new research says probably isn't realistic and it probably had laws well beyond what we currently understand - aka, who know how long intersteller dust needed to spin and compress in order to start creating fusion and suns.....)

So if the earth is 4.5 billion years old, that gives us approximately 4500000000/15 = (we are estimating ~ 15 years between generations, on average, of all species ever to exist on earth). That gives us 300 million generations to get from dust to current forms of living matter, with setbacks every 65 million years (the solar system is moving throughout the Milky Way, and recent evidence shows that once every approximately 65 million years, we enter an area of the Milky Way that is ripe for extinctions (the tail of the Milky Way as it is also moving throughout the universe).

So step one is to realize that a simple adaptation such as eskimos having squinty eyes due to them living in the arctic where sun reflects off the ice into the eyes, happen constantly. No one can deny this. There is a sharp distinction between this adaptation and the genetic mutation that causes species jumps. Imagine with me that we have a few cell organism. Radiation from the sun somehow mutates a gene to have a different DNA sequence that causes an RNA strand to create a gene that creates a protein that makes lung tissue in an aquatic animal. What do you think the probablilty of a gene mutation like that is? Also, what do you think the probability of that gene appearing in a fish so readily, that it doesn't disappear over the next few generations simply because there is no need for it. Fish didn't evolve lungs and then instantly use them. That means survival of the fitest did not apply. Early lungs would be non functioning (extra appendages). That means, there is a probability that these would disappear because they did not help that creature in any way.

So really, we are looking at a mathematical probability. What is the probability that within 300,000,000 generations, there was a genetic mutation that occurred at exactly the right time in history, and exactly the functionality necessary for the survival and eventual thriving of a species.

Not that great. Sure it is easy to take a virus and prove evolution as they reproduce very quickly. But once you get into multicelled organisms and talk of gene mutation spawning such things as organs and lungs, you really get into probabilities much to high for the current time frame.

Next is the fact that scientists don't have a clear picture of what was happening in history. If the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and scientists have found even 100,000 unique locations based on different times in history (which isn't true in the least), that gives them a snapshot of only .002% of all of history.....hmmm, it then makes sense that they can complete the history of all species with that much information. It's so nice to hear they have so much data. Add into that the fact that when they do make a discovery, it is based on a specific location and sitution in history. If you found fossils from the everglades today 350 million years from now, you would be pretty sure that evolution had only reached the reptilian stage because that is all you would see. You would see crocodiles, alligators, fish and sea creatures in a swamp land. You see such a small part of the world.....so actually, your .002% view is only of .002% of the earth at taht moment. So really you only have a .0000004% view of anything.....

So if you add together the fact that the probabilities of genetic mutations and the fact that scientists actually have no idea what happened over 99.9% of history, you have a pretty AMAZING theory called evolution. My logic tells me not to believe things that are so horribly supported. (I have other reasons, but I am off to bed)/

But go ahead and blindly agree with what "scientists" have to say without thinking for yourselves.....oh wait, that is exactly what you say about creationists.

ithilgore2006
A virus? Viruses don't reproduce, they replicate. Neither do they evolve like "proper" organisms do, because they're only half alive in the first place. I believe you mean Bacteria. And using "probability" in matters like this, is pointless. I could calculate the probability for someone being hit by lightning, and say "hah! it's low! This person couldn't have been hit by lightning", but that woudn't chnage the fact that it happened. So that's out the window. Now, as to you saying adaptions would have to formed complete, otherwise they would be useless, take the almighty example, the bacterium. It's flagellum is what it uses most for movement, and creationists said it couldn't have formed complete, but it would have been usesless if it had formed bit by bit over many generations, so evolution was wrong. Unfortunately for them, scientists have studied to evolution of the bacterium, and it's flagellum, and they've shown every piece of it that wod have evolved over time, had a different function, no part of it was ever useless, and it eventually grew to form it's modern flagellum. And please refrain from quoting "scientists" like that, it's wrong to try and imply they don't deserve any respect. You may have decided, for whatever reason, that evolution can't be true, but those thousands of intelligent scientists have decided, from the evidence, that evolution deserves the title of Theory, the highest it can go in science, and in the realm of pure fact. They have no hidden agendas, no preconcieved conclusions, they're only seeking to further knowledge, and they deserve the highest respect for their work.

Quoting scientists in what way - you are just angry because someone is disagreeing with your beautiful idea of the world and has some legitimate reasons that you never considered. It's ok to listen to other's opinions. I am not saying that the idea of evolution is wrong, I am saying that it isn't probable and that our view of what actually happened is limited - you CANNOT argue with those points, because both are valid.
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#411 ithilgore2006
Member since 2006 • 10494 Posts
[QUOTE="ithilgore2006"][QUOTE="seabiscuit8686"]

Wow, I guess I am the complete opposite of what you guys are stereotyping. I graduated with a physics major and am currently working as an engineer. I understand evolution very well and I have one of the most "logical" minds of anyone I know. Instead of saying that logic proves evolution, I say logic actually disproves it (or at least makes it seem rediculous). Logically and biologically, evolution isn't grounded in fact, more on assumption - and we all know what they say about assumptions. Notice I will never say that evolution 100% didn't happen, nor should anyone, nor should anyone say that it 100% did happen, as none of us were there. And that is my first point. Scientists say that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, and as a physicist, I tend to believe this (though again, because we weren't there, we are under the assumption that the period after the big bang held the same laws of physics as we see currently, which new research says probably isn't realistic and it probably had laws well beyond what we currently understand - aka, who know how long intersteller dust needed to spin and compress in order to start creating fusion and suns.....)

So if the earth is 4.5 billion years old, that gives us approximately 4500000000/15 = (we are estimating ~ 15 years between generations, on average, of all species ever to exist on earth). That gives us 300 million generations to get from dust to current forms of living matter, with setbacks every 65 million years (the solar system is moving throughout the Milky Way, and recent evidence shows that once every approximately 65 million years, we enter an area of the Milky Way that is ripe for extinctions (the tail of the Milky Way as it is also moving throughout the universe).

So step one is to realize that a simple adaptation such as eskimos having squinty eyes due to them living in the arctic where sun reflects off the ice into the eyes, happen constantly. No one can deny this. There is a sharp distinction between this adaptation and the genetic mutation that causes species jumps. Imagine with me that we have a few cell organism. Radiation from the sun somehow mutates a gene to have a different DNA sequence that causes an RNA strand to create a gene that creates a protein that makes lung tissue in an aquatic animal. What do you think the probablilty of a gene mutation like that is? Also, what do you think the probability of that gene appearing in a fish so readily, that it doesn't disappear over the next few generations simply because there is no need for it. Fish didn't evolve lungs and then instantly use them. That means survival of the fitest did not apply. Early lungs would be non functioning (extra appendages). That means, there is a probability that these would disappear because they did not help that creature in any way.

So really, we are looking at a mathematical probability. What is the probability that within 300,000,000 generations, there was a genetic mutation that occurred at exactly the right time in history, and exactly the functionality necessary for the survival and eventual thriving of a species.

Not that great. Sure it is easy to take a virus and prove evolution as they reproduce very quickly. But once you get into multicelled organisms and talk of gene mutation spawning such things as organs and lungs, you really get into probabilities much to high for the current time frame.

Next is the fact that scientists don't have a clear picture of what was happening in history. If the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and scientists have found even 100,000 unique locations based on different times in history (which isn't true in the least), that gives them a snapshot of only .002% of all of history.....hmmm, it then makes sense that they can complete the history of all species with that much information. It's so nice to hear they have so much data. Add into that the fact that when they do make a discovery, it is based on a specific location and sitution in history. If you found fossils from the everglades today 350 million years from now, you would be pretty sure that evolution had only reached the reptilian stage because that is all you would see. You would see crocodiles, alligators, fish and sea creatures in a swamp land. You see such a small part of the world.....so actually, your .002% view is only of .002% of the earth at taht moment. So really you only have a .0000004% view of anything.....

So if you add together the fact that the probabilities of genetic mutations and the fact that scientists actually have no idea what happened over 99.9% of history, you have a pretty AMAZING theory called evolution. My logic tells me not to believe things that are so horribly supported. (I have other reasons, but I am off to bed)/

But go ahead and blindly agree with what "scientists" have to say without thinking for yourselves.....oh wait, that is exactly what you say about creationists.

seabiscuit8686
A virus? Viruses don't reproduce, they replicate. Neither do they evolve like "proper" organisms do, because they're only half alive in the first place. I believe you mean Bacteria. And using "probability" in matters like this, is pointless. I could calculate the probability for someone being hit by lightning, and say "hah! it's low! This person couldn't have been hit by lightning", but that woudn't chnage the fact that it happened. So that's out the window. Now, as to you saying adaptions would have to formed complete, otherwise they would be useless, take the almighty example, the bacterium. It's flagellum is what it uses most for movement, and creationists said it couldn't have formed complete, but it would have been usesless if it had formed bit by bit over many generations, so evolution was wrong. Unfortunately for them, scientists have studied to evolution of the bacterium, and it's flagellum, and they've shown every piece of it that wod have evolved over time, had a different function, no part of it was ever useless, and it eventually grew to form it's modern flagellum. And please refrain from quoting "scientists" like that, it's wrong to try and imply they don't deserve any respect. You may have decided, for whatever reason, that evolution can't be true, but those thousands of intelligent scientists have decided, from the evidence, that evolution deserves the title of Theory, the highest it can go in science, and in the realm of pure fact. They have no hidden agendas, no preconcieved conclusions, they're only seeking to further knowledge, and they deserve the highest respect for their work.

Again, you are using the "misconception" or at least preconception that it happened as a basis of avoiding the majority of my argument - probability - congratulations

So why are you so convinced that probability is proof it;'s false? Do you not think scientists have considered it themselves? And thus discarded it, because they ended up making it a Theory?
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seabiscuit8686

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#412 seabiscuit8686
Member since 2005 • 2862 Posts
[QUOTE="ithilgore2006"][QUOTE="seabiscuit8686"][QUOTE="ithilgore2006"] A virus? Viruses don't reproduce, they replicate. Neither do they evolve like "proper" organisms do, because they're only half alive in the first place. I believe you mean Bacteria. And using "probability" in matters like this, is pointless. I could calculate the probability for someone being hit by lightning, and say "hah! it's low! This person couldn't have been hit by lightning", but that woudn't chnage the fact that it happened. So that's out the window. Now, as to you saying adaptions would have to formed complete, otherwise they would be useless, take the almighty example, the bacterium. It's flagellum is what it uses most for movement, and creationists said it couldn't have formed complete, but it would have been usesless if it had formed bit by bit over many generations, so evolution was wrong. Unfortunately for them, scientists have studied to evolution of the bacterium, and it's flagellum, and they've shown every piece of it that wod have evolved over time, had a different function, no part of it was ever useless, and it eventually grew to form it's modern flagellum. And please refrain from quoting "scientists" like that, it's wrong to try and imply they don't deserve any respect. You may have decided, for whatever reason, that evolution can't be true, but those thousands of intelligent scientists have decided, from the evidence, that evolution deserves the title of Theory, the highest it can go in science, and in the realm of pure fact. They have no hidden agendas, no preconcieved conclusions, they're only seeking to further knowledge, and they deserve the highest respect for their work.

Again, you are using the "misconception" or at least preconception that it happened as a basis of avoiding the majority of my argument - probability - congratulations

So why are you so convinced that probability is proof it;'s false? Do you not think scientists have considered it themselves? And thus discarded it, because they ended up making it a Theory?

I didn't say it is false, I said it isn't probable. So it may have happened, but the probability that it did is ridiculously small. Now if you add in the fact that life is abundant in the universe, evolution has much more grounding - but again, that is unproven
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metroidfood

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#413 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts

Speaking of "blindly agreeing" with something - you fit the bill perfectly. You honestly think that "random genetic mutations" don't follow the laws of probability?

Everything is probable, but that doesn't mean mutations will follow probability. There's too many factors (the degenerate nature of DNA, mutations in "junk" DNA, chromosomal translocation, mitotic errors, etc...) to say that mutations will follow a certain rate over time.

Also, even if you adjust the "generation" from 15, probabilities on this scale only increase when you decrease the factor (the 15) by significant proportions. Decrease it to one, you still have only 4.5 billion generations (and we all know the EARTH is 4.5 billion years old, not life on earth, which is much more modern....we are talking perhaps less than 1 billion years old - so your point is mute).

Again, you're assuming that generations are A. Linear and B. Take at least a year to occur. There are plenty ocforganisms that reproduce much faster than that. There are also multiple generations occuring at once, which is why we have a phylogenetic tree rather than a phylogenetic corn stalk. :P

More than just fossil evidence.....true - enough to fill in the gaps that are left (omg there are no gaps!!!!) because there are plenty of "time gaps" that are bloody significant. If you can tell me that you know what was happening at specific times in history, I will call you ignorant. So you don't blindly agree with scientists, you just look at what they have and decide that Occam's Razor is always true. Your "evidence" is basically like taking two words out of a million page book and saying that you understand how everything works because you found some of the linking words - like the!

I think you're underestimating the amount of evidence there is for evolution. Not only has it been tested for decades, but it's also been applied everywhere in biology and consistently held strong. We may be looking only at a tiny slice of history, but that hasn't stopped us from furthering our knowledge of evolution.

People who say that the genome and human DNA sequences vs. other animals is too similar not to have a common ancestor, did you consider that perhaps some of these DNA strains are important for life - aka without them, things aren't able to exist in their current form (therefore anything without those would not exist). Now you can look at it like there was a mutation that allowed all to have that DNA and then everyone branched from that, or that everyone had that from the beginning.

The point is that they may contain the same basic information, but as you move up the phylogenetic tree organisms start to get more and more genetically related. Or that genetic differences reflect known types of mutations, I believe it was Genetic_Code that mentioned the one of our chromosomes was strikingly similar to two of a chimp's chromosomes fused together.

Either way, the argument comes down to this - do you believe that life was placed on this earth in its "modern" form, or do you believe that a random virus landed on earth and spawned where we came from - and neither have any "legitimate" evidence.

The origins of life has nothing to do with evolution. It's all about speciation.

One last thing "Not true. Early forms of appendages are usually transitional forms of other appendages (such as fins to feet). Also mutation occur at an incredibly rapid rate. Most are either corrected, don't do anything, or reduce the chances of survival. But it only takes a single lucky nucleotide placement to give an organism a HUGE advantage. " Early forms of appendages were not functioning. A mutation of an early lung did not take in oxygen from air and therefore would not have any significant impact on that species.

If a mutation does not impact the survivability of an organism it will either disappear or perhaps be important later on in life. An early lung could not have formed if it did not increase the survivability of the organism. It's like the increasing complexity of the eye. Eyespots may have not been particularly good, but being able to detect light in any form will give a significant. It only takes a couple of cells, in which it only takes a few proteins, to allow an organism to "see." Thus, even more complex eyes will give younger generations an advantage, and so on and so forth. A nonfunctional lung cannot just spawn, it would have to develop over generations due to more complex forms conferring an advantage to offspring. If not, it would likely have not appeared at all.

For example, I have throat cancer (a genetic mutation that causes the uncontrollable growth of cells), those cells are not special or unique, they don't create a function that helps me survive.

Actually cancer cells do have a selective advantage, but ones that give them advantages over other cells, and not an advantage for you (the organism with cancer).

But maybe, someday, over billions of years, one would......but then you have an early form of lung. Well then that early form of lung needs even more time to modernize

See, you're assuming that evolution of organs is based on structure. The size and shape of a nonfunctional organ will not provide a selective advantage, while a similar structure that adopts the task of a lung IS advantageous. Over time, that structure will likely develop into a lungm, rather than a nonfunctional lung appearing and then developing into a functional lung.

So we get back to my original point that there isn't enough TIME to have done this......... And I stated I was a physicist simply because everyone was saying that if you use logic, you would agree with evolution. Physicists are the definition of logical thinkers (well most), so I was denouncing that fact that all logically people inevitably believe in evolution - not trying to add "cred" to myself.

We've seen species evolve in our labs and in the world around us in this short amount of time. I think a billion years is plenty. Also, logic in one area of science does not foolproof you against falling into common holes in logic in other areas of science. See: XKCD.

seabiscuit8686

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metroidfood

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#414 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts

[QUOTE="ithilgore2006"][QUOTE="seabiscuit8686"] Again, you are using the "misconception" or at least preconception that it happened as a basis of avoiding the majority of my argument - probability - congratulationsseabiscuit8686
So why are you so convinced that probability is proof it;'s false? Do you not think scientists have considered it themselves? And thus discarded it, because they ended up making it a Theory?

I didn't say it is false, I said it isn't probable. So it may have happened, but the probability that it did is ridiculously small. Now if you add in the fact that life is abundant in the universe, evolution has much more grounding - but again, that is unproven

By logic, a 1/1000 chance of something happening isn't probable. But if you repeatedly test that over and over it will probably happen eventually. If life was probable, we would probably see complex life on many other planets. But we don't, we are a tiny exception in a sea of likely results.

And seeing as how evolution occurs all around us right now, it's very probable that it has been happening ever since cells started using RNA/DNA as their instructions for life. To say that organisms have been around for millions of years without any significant genetic changes seems much more improbable than saying that they speciated.

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Funky_Llama

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#415 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="seabiscuit8686"][QUOTE="ithilgore2006"][QUOTE="seabiscuit8686"] Again, you are using the "misconception" or at least preconception that it happened as a basis of avoiding the majority of my argument - probability - congratulations

So why are you so convinced that probability is proof it;'s false? Do you not think scientists have considered it themselves? And thus discarded it, because they ended up making it a Theory?

I didn't say it is false, I said it isn't probable. So it may have happened, but the probability that it did is ridiculously small. Now if you add in the fact that life is abundant in the universe, evolution has much more grounding - but again, that is unproven

Just out of interest... what is your opinion on microevolution?
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maheo30

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#416 maheo30
Member since 2006 • 5102 Posts
I deny it because it is a stupid theory. Only mankind could come up with evolution. Evolution proves the doctrine of man's depravity. That and Britney Spears.
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Funky_Llama

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#417 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
I deny it because it is a stupid theory. Only mankind could come up with evolution. Evolution proves the doctrine of man's depravity. That and Britney Spears. maheo30
Why is it stupid?
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foxhound_fox

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#418 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
Why is it stupid?Funky_Llama

Perhaps he actually knows nothing about it and goes on what people like Kent Hovind and Ray Comfort say?
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Viking_1298

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#419 Viking_1298
Member since 2007 • 377 Posts
Everyones got something to believe in I suppose.
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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#421 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"]

So I found out that the world population doubles roughly every 42 years.

So let's say mankind is 50,000 years old, which is a modest number.

50,000/42= 1190

Bah, where is my damn calculator. Well somebody take 2^1190

Uh the worlds population does not double in 42 years, that is the average as of right now.. It is grossly different in numerous different ages.. Where mankind had no agriculture, ice age, disease epidemics, natural diseaster.. Did you know there were infact LESS people living in Europe during the high middle ages, then earlier in the beginning of middle ages? Thats becasue of disease, so your equation does not work because its a extremely oversimplification..
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Dark-Sithious

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#422 Dark-Sithious
Member since 2008 • 3914 Posts
[QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"]

So I found out that the world population doubles roughly every 42 years.

So let's say mankind is 50,000 years old, which is a modest number.

50,000/42= 1190

Bah, where is my damn calculator. Well somebody take 2^1190

sSubZerOo

Uh the worlds population does not double in 42 years, that is the average as of right now.. It is grossly different in numerous different ages.. Where mankind had no agriculture, ice age, disease epidemics, natural diseaster.. Did you know there were infact LESS people living in Europe during the high middle ages, then earlier in the beginning of middle ages? Thats becasue of disease, so your equation does not work because its a extremely oversimplification..

It's an average of the population growth the last 1500 years or so. So no, it's not the average as of right now.

But yeah the equation is an over simplification, but if mankind is 100,000 years old (as often used) the doubling rate would be 3500+ years, it seems a bit unlikely and could be used by creationists as an argument against evolution.

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-Jiggles-

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#423 -Jiggles-
Member since 2008 • 4356 Posts

I deny it because it is a stupid theory. Only mankind could come up with evolution. Evolution proves the doctrine of man's depravity. That and Britney Spears. maheo30

You mind explaining to us why evolution is stupid?

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Funky_Llama

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#424 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"]

So I found out that the world population doubles roughly every 42 years.

So let's say mankind is 50,000 years old, which is a modest number.

50,000/42= 1190

Bah, where is my damn calculator. Well somebody take 2^1190

Dark-Sithious

Uh the worlds population does not double in 42 years, that is the average as of right now.. It is grossly different in numerous different ages.. Where mankind had no agriculture, ice age, disease epidemics, natural diseaster.. Did you know there were infact LESS people living in Europe during the high middle ages, then earlier in the beginning of middle ages? Thats becasue of disease, so your equation does not work because its a extremely oversimplification..

It's an average of the population growth the last 1500 years or so. So no, it's not the average as of right now.

But yeah the equation is an over simplification, but if mankind is 100,000 years old (as often used) the doubling rate would be 3500+ years, it seems a bit unlikely and could be used by creationists as an argument against evolution.

A source would be good. >_>
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ithilgore2006

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#425 ithilgore2006
Member since 2006 • 10494 Posts
I deny it because it is a stupid theory. Only mankind could come up with evolution. Evolution proves the doctrine of man's depravity. That and Britney Spears. maheo30
What is "stupid" about it?
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#426 wjb428
Member since 2003 • 1372 Posts
I don't understand it, there's overwhelming evidence for it, Thanatos1337
Yes the 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance suck we right in. PS: it is smarter to believe in Jesus, if you do and he is real , you get heaven , if you do and he isnt real it dosnt affect you, if you believe in evolution and Jesus is real have fun in hell.
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Dark-Sithious

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#427 Dark-Sithious
Member since 2008 • 3914 Posts

Another argument against evolution is that no new species has arisen, or has been proved to have arisen. Even though mathematics show us that a new animal species should have occurred every 3rd year for the last 6000 years. If we include plants, it would be every year. (this is all calculated with a number of 3 million species, a modest number considering scientist expect there to be 5-10million)

Now, I have not heard of the discovery of a new specie, but I might be mistaken.

Another argument against the theory of evolution that it is improbable that one and only one specie should develop into man (scientist believe mankind was derived from 2 humans a long time ago) considering there are between 5-10 million. Following evolutionary guidelines, all had the same start, as it is believed that everything has a common ancestor, a simplistic organism, but yet only one out of 5-10 million reached the physical and intellectual status of man. No other specie is even close when it comes to intellectual thinking. As a physicist mentioned earlier, evolution violates mathematical probability.

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p2rus

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#428 p2rus
Member since 2005 • 2859 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanatos1337"]I don't understand it, there's overwhelming evidence for it, wjb428
PS: it is smarter to believe in Jesus, if you do and he is real , you get heaven , if you do and he isnt real it dosnt affect you, if you believe in evolution and Jesus is real have fun in hell.

PS Pasca's Wager... which is completely idiotic.
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#429 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanatos1337"]I don't understand it, there's overwhelming evidence for it, wjb428
Yes the 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance suck we right in. PS: it is smarter to believe in Jesus, if you do and he is real , you get heaven , if you do and he isnt real it dosnt affect you, if you believe in evolution and Jesus is real have fun in hell.

Or you can just believe in both...
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Dark-Sithious

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#430 Dark-Sithious
Member since 2008 • 3914 Posts
[QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] Uh the worlds population does not double in 42 years, that is the average as of right now.. It is grossly different in numerous different ages.. Where mankind had no agriculture, ice age, disease epidemics, natural diseaster.. Did you know there were infact LESS people living in Europe during the high middle ages, then earlier in the beginning of middle ages? Thats becasue of disease, so your equation does not work because its a extremely oversimplification..Funky_Llama

It's an average of the population growth the last 1500 years or so. So no, it's not the average as of right now.

But yeah the equation is an over simplification, but if mankind is 100,000 years old (as often used) the doubling rate would be 3500+ years, it seems a bit unlikely and could be used by creationists as an argument against evolution.

A source would be good. >_>

Why do I need a source for mathematics? I did these calculations a while back, so I hope they are correct as I can't seem to find my Casio.

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deactivated-5df4e79c309ad

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#431 deactivated-5df4e79c309ad
Member since 2005 • 6045 Posts
I don't understand it, there's overwhelming evidence for it, possibly more evidence than any other scientific theory, yet people still deny it, why is this?Thanatos1337
A lot of scientists are questioning evolution. It doesn't necessarily mean that they believe in creationism, but the idea that something can come from nothing is hard for even evolutionists to prove.
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#432 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanatos1337"]I don't understand it, there's overwhelming evidence for it, possibly more evidence than any other scientific theory, yet people still deny it, why is this?Jemdude
A lot of scientists are questioning evolution. It doesn't necessarily mean that they believe in creationism, but the idea that something can come from nothing is hard for even evolutionists to prove.

But evolution isn't the idea that something can come from nothing. It just merely explains how life diversified.
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ithilgore2006

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#433 ithilgore2006
Member since 2006 • 10494 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanatos1337"]I don't understand it, there's overwhelming evidence for it, possibly more evidence than any other scientific theory, yet people still deny it, why is this?Jemdude
A lot of scientists are questioning evolution. It doesn't necessarily mean that they believe in creationism, but the idea that something can come from nothing is hard for even evolutionists to prove.

What? What scientists are questioning evolution? You sound like just made that up, considering evolution has nothing to do with "something coming from nothing". And before you try it, neither does Abiogenesis, or the Big Bang.
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Dark-Sithious

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#434 Dark-Sithious
Member since 2008 • 3914 Posts

[QUOTE="Jemdude"][QUOTE="Thanatos1337"]I don't understand it, there's overwhelming evidence for it, possibly more evidence than any other scientific theory, yet people still deny it, why is this?ithilgore2006
A lot of scientists are questioning evolution. It doesn't necessarily mean that they believe in creationism, but the idea that something can come from nothing is hard for even evolutionists to prove.

What? What scientists are questioning evolution? You sound like just made that up, considering evolution has nothing to do with "something coming from nothing". And before you try it, neither does Abiogenesis, or the Big Bang.

Speaking of Big Bang, it is not stated in the theory ofc that nothing became matter. But the theory is that immensely dense matter exploded into a big bang. Or the Universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition as they put it. Either way, if you read in-between the lines this matter must have originated from somewhere or something, and untill we have a better explanation for how nothing becomes everything we have to apply a god.

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Funky_Llama

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#435 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"]

It's an average of the population growth the last 1500 years or so. So no, it's not the average as of right now.

But yeah the equation is an over simplification, but if mankind is 100,000 years old (as often used) the doubling rate would be 3500+ years, it seems a bit unlikely and could be used by creationists as an argument against evolution.

Dark-Sithious

A source would be good. >_>

Why do I need a source for mathematics? I did these calculations a while back, so I hope they are correct as I can't seem to find my Casio.

Your calculator is capable of telling you how often the population doubles? I'm impressed.
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#436 -Jiggles-
Member since 2008 • 4356 Posts

[QUOTE="Thanatos1337"]I don't understand it, there's overwhelming evidence for it, possibly more evidence than any other scientific theory, yet people still deny it, why is this?Jemdude
A lot of scientists are questioning evolution. It doesn't necessarily mean that they believe in creationism, but the idea that something can come from nothing is hard for even evolutionists to prove.

You will have to show me these scientists who question evolution along with their past credibility. People like Ben Stein, Kent Hovind and others may consider themselves scientists, but they both are laughing stocks of the scientific community and lack much knowledge on the basics of science to even try refuting a scientific theory of any sort.

Also, evolution does not explain the origins of life, only the variations of it. "Something out of nothing" is a weak arguement created by young earth creationists that lack the significant knowledge needed in order to understand evolution, or science in general. As a poster has already stated before me, abiogenesis and the big bang theory are not "something out of nothing" as well.

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Funky_Llama

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#437 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts

[QUOTE="ithilgore2006"][QUOTE="Jemdude"] A lot of scientists are questioning evolution. It doesn't necessarily mean that they believe in creationism, but the idea that something can come from nothing is hard for even evolutionists to prove.Dark-Sithious

What? What scientists are questioning evolution? You sound like just made that up, considering evolution has nothing to do with "something coming from nothing". And before you try it, neither does Abiogenesis, or the Big Bang.

Speaking of Big Bang, it is not stated in the theory ofc that nothing became matter. But the theory is that immensely dense matter exploded into a big bang. Or the Universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition as they put it. Either way, if you read in-between the lines this matter must have originated from somewhere or something, and untill we have a better explanation for how nothing becomes everything we have to apply a god.

No we don't. God of the gaps FTL.
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Funky_Llama

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#438 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanatos1337"]I don't understand it, there's overwhelming evidence for it, possibly more evidence than any other scientific theory, yet people still deny it, why is this?Jemdude
A lot of scientists are questioning evolution. It doesn't necessarily mean that they believe in creationism, but the idea that something can come from nothing is hard for even evolutionists to prove.

Evolution doesn't claim that something can come from nothing. :|
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Funky_Llama

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#439 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanatos1337"]I don't understand it, there's overwhelming evidence for it, wjb428
Yes the 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance suck we right in. PS: it is smarter to believe in Jesus, if you do and he is real , you get heaven , if you do and he isnt real it dosnt affect you, if you believe in evolution and Jesus is real have fun in hell.

People who believe in evolution go to hell? Wow :lol: You may as well believe in Muhammad, anyway. Or the flying spaghetti monster. By the way, what does that first sentence even mean?
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deactivated-5a79221380856

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#440 deactivated-5a79221380856
Member since 2007 • 13125 Posts

Speaking of Big Bang, it is not stated in the theory ofc that nothing became matter. But the theory is that immensely dense matter exploded into a big bang. Or the Universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition as they put it. Either way, if you read in-between the lines this matter must have originated from somewhere or something, and untill we have a better explanation for how nothing becomes everything we have to apply a god.

Dark-Sithious
Hypothetically, if I'm walking and something outside of my vision runs into me and I can't determine what it is, it must be God, because there is no better explanation? Couldn't we just say we couldn't determine the source and attempt to determine it? Wouldn't that be sufficient using Occam's Razor?
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Mr_sprinkles

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#441 Mr_sprinkles
Member since 2005 • 6461 Posts

Another argument against evolution is that no new species has arisen, or has been proved to have arisen. Even though mathematics show us that a new animal species should have occurred every 3rd year for the last 6000 years. If we include plants, it would be every year. (this is all calculated with a number of 3 million species, a modest number considering scientist expect there to be 5-10million)

Now, I have not heard of the discovery of a new specie, but I might be mistaken.

Another argument against the theory of evolution that it is improbable that one and only one specie should develop into man (scientist believe mankind was derived from 2 humans a long time ago) considering there are between 5-10 million. Following evolutionary guidelines, all had the same start, as it is believed that everything has a common ancestor, a simplistic organism, but yet only one out of 5-10 million reached the physical and intellectual status of man. No other specie is even close when it comes to intellectual thinking. As a physicist mentioned earlier, evolution violates mathematical probability.

Dark-Sithious
first and second paragraph- new species have arisen. If you really aren't even willing to do a quick google to just check wether your (rather hefty) assertion that no new species have arisen, you shouldn't be asserting it at all. And for paragraph number three- evolution is not random, and so isn't governed by mathematical probability. mutations are random, but the way they are selected for or against certainly isn't.
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Funky_Llama

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#442 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts

Another argument against evolution is that no new species has arisen, or has been proved to have arisen. Even though mathematics show us that a new animal species should have occurred every 3rd year for the last 6000 years. If we include plants, it would be every year. (this is all calculated with a number of 3 million species, a modest number considering scientist expect there to be 5-10million)

Now, I have not heard of the discovery of a new specie, but I might be mistaken.

Another argument against the theory of evolution that it is improbable that one and only one specie should develop into man (scientist believe mankind was derived from 2 humans a long time ago) considering there are between 5-10 million. Following evolutionary guidelines, all had the same start, as it is believed that everything has a common ancestor, a simplistic organism, but yet only one out of 5-10 million reached the physical and intellectual status of man. No other specie is even close when it comes to intellectual thinking. As a physicist mentioned earlier, evolution violates mathematical probability.

Dark-Sithious
How did you derive those figures? :| And no, evolution does NOT violate mathematical probability. I very much doubt that he was genuinely a physicist, given his basic misunderstanding of probability. Evolution is not improbable; it is almost inevitable.
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Dark-Sithious

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#443 Dark-Sithious
Member since 2008 • 3914 Posts
[QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]A source would be good. >_>Funky_Llama

Why do I need a source for mathematics? I did these calculations a while back, so I hope they are correct as I can't seem to find my Casio.

Your calculator is capable of telling you how often the population doubles? I'm impressed.

Lol, that is trather simple mathematics.

2^x= 6,000,000,000

X= the amount of times the population has doubled itself. Then you divide 100,000 by that number, if I remember correctly, and that is the amount of years, on average it has taken for mankind to double it's population.

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Dark-Sithious

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#444 Dark-Sithious
Member since 2008 • 3914 Posts
[QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"]

Another argument against evolution is that no new species has arisen, or has been proved to have arisen. Even though mathematics show us that a new animal species should have occurred every 3rd year for the last 6000 years. If we include plants, it would be every year. (this is all calculated with a number of 3 million species, a modest number considering scientist expect there to be 5-10million)

Now, I have not heard of the discovery of a new specie, but I might be mistaken.

Another argument against the theory of evolution that it is improbable that one and only one specie should develop into man (scientist believe mankind was derived from 2 humans a long time ago) considering there are between 5-10 million. Following evolutionary guidelines, all had the same start, as it is believed that everything has a common ancestor, a simplistic organism, but yet only one out of 5-10 million reached the physical and intellectual status of man. No other specie is even close when it comes to intellectual thinking. As a physicist mentioned earlier, evolution violates mathematical probability.

Mr_sprinkles

first and second paragraph- new species have arisen. If you really aren't even willing to do a quick google to just check wether your (rather hefty) assertion that no new species have arisen, you shouldn't be asserting it at all. And for paragraph number three- evolution is not random, and so isn't governed by mathematical probability. mutations are random, but the way they are selected for or against certainly isn't.

They have, give me links

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Mr_sprinkles

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#445 Mr_sprinkles
Member since 2005 • 6461 Posts
[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"]

Another argument against evolution is that no new species has arisen, or has been proved to have arisen. Even though mathematics show us that a new animal species should have occurred every 3rd year for the last 6000 years. If we include plants, it would be every year. (this is all calculated with a number of 3 million species, a modest number considering scientist expect there to be 5-10million)

Now, I have not heard of the discovery of a new specie, but I might be mistaken.

Another argument against the theory of evolution that it is improbable that one and only one specie should develop into man (scientist believe mankind was derived from 2 humans a long time ago) considering there are between 5-10 million. Following evolutionary guidelines, all had the same start, as it is believed that everything has a common ancestor, a simplistic organism, but yet only one out of 5-10 million reached the physical and intellectual status of man. No other specie is even close when it comes to intellectual thinking. As a physicist mentioned earlier, evolution violates mathematical probability.

Dark-Sithious

first and second paragraph- new species have arisen. If you really aren't even willing to do a quick google to just check wether your (rather hefty) assertion that no new species have arisen, you shouldn't be asserting it at all. And for paragraph number three- evolution is not random, and so isn't governed by mathematical probability. mutations are random, but the way they are selected for or against certainly isn't.

They have, give me links

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
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metroidfood

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#446 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"]

Why do I need a source for mathematics? I did these calculations a while back, so I hope they are correct as I can't seem to find my Casio.

Dark-Sithious

Your calculator is capable of telling you how often the population doubles? I'm impressed.

Lol, that is trather simple mathematics.

2^x= 6,000,000,000

X= the amount of times the population has doubled itself. Then you divide 100,000 by that number, if I remember correctly, and that is the amount of years, on average it has taken for mankind to double it's population.

You're making major assumptions in those calculations though. There are so many missing variables that you can't even begin to use your calculation as proof, much less even calculate the population at a specific time.
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Funky_Llama

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#447 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"]

Why do I need a source for mathematics? I did these calculations a while back, so I hope they are correct as I can't seem to find my Casio.

Dark-Sithious

Your calculator is capable of telling you how often the population doubles? I'm impressed.

Lol, that is trather simple mathematics.

2^x= 6,000,000,000

X= the amount of times the population has doubled itself. Then you divide 100,000 by that number, if I remember correctly, and that is the amount of years, on average it has taken for mankind to double it's population.

Where does the 100,000 come from?
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Dark-Sithious

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#448 Dark-Sithious
Member since 2008 • 3914 Posts
[QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Your calculator is capable of telling you how often the population doubles? I'm impressed.metroidfood

Lol, that is trather simple mathematics.

2^x= 6,000,000,000

X= the amount of times the population has doubled itself. Then you divide 100,000 by that number, if I remember correctly, and that is the amount of years, on average it has taken for mankind to double it's population.

You're making major assumptions in those calculations though. There are so many missing variables that you can't even begin to use your calculation as proof, much less even calculate the population at a specific time.

major assumptions? I am simply calculating the doubling rate on average, there are no assumptions here. How you interpreted the answer however is a totally different story, but I'm simply giving you the math, take it as you like, but instead of trying to falsify correct calculations you could just EXPLAIN the results and why it is plausible in coherence with evolution. Instead you come off as rather childish.

Anyway I took a look at that speciation list, and I wasn't aware of that, well played. Either way, I was just, with my post trying to answer the TC orginal question, something most of you seem to have missed.

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Dark-Sithious

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#449 Dark-Sithious
Member since 2008 • 3914 Posts
[QUOTE="Dark-Sithious"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Your calculator is capable of telling you how often the population doubles? I'm impressed.Funky_Llama

Lol, that is trather simple mathematics.

2^x= 6,000,000,000

X= the amount of times the population has doubled itself. Then you divide 100,000 by that number, if I remember correctly, and that is the amount of years, on average it has taken for mankind to double it's population.

Where does the 100,000 come from?

As stated earlier in the thread, mankind is believed to be 100,000 years old, ofc as with any numbers regarding evolution, it variates a lot. Which might I add, is another point in why one could question evolution, as scientist seems to change their estimates faster than most ppl change socks.

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deactivated-5a79221380856

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#450 deactivated-5a79221380856
Member since 2007 • 13125 Posts

As stated earlier in the thread, mankind is believed to be 100,000 years old, ofc as with any numbers regarding evolution, it variates a lot. Which might I add, is another point in why one could question evolution, as scientist seems to change their estimates faster than most ppl change socks.

Dark-Sithious
That's a good thing that conclusions can be changed as further evidence presents itself. This does not destroy the theory of evolution, but only further explains it.