Why is everyone so opposed to alternative energy? Why blame Obama?

Do you think natural resources are not finite?DroidPhysX

Can you tell me when we've ever run out of a natural resource? It's a simple question.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]Do you think natural resources are not finite?airshocker

Can you tell me when we've ever run out of a natural resource? It's a simple question.

It'd be easier to take the propositions of green people seriously if they'd be consistent enough to push for nuclear.

Alternate energy is fine and dandy, but not a viable option for energy in today's age.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]Do you think natural resources are not finite?airshocker

Can you tell me when we've ever run out of a natural resource? It's a simple question.

I can tell you that we're running out of natural resources. Given the human consumption of oil at the current rate, its expected that oil will be depleted and gone in the next few decades.DroidPhysX

So you can't tell me if we've ever actually run out of a natural resource.

The answer is we haven't, by the way.

We're always finding new ways of obtaining natural resources. New ways of "drilling" for oil. It wasn't too long ago that we had no idea what hydro-fracturing was, and that has unlocked more natural gas reserves than we know what to do with.

I'm simply tired of this liberal alarmism that says we have to stop using fossil fuels because we're running out. Based on the fact that we haven't run out of ANY natural resource, I find it hard to believe.

So if something hasn't happened then it can't happen? PWSteal_Ldpinch

Where does your alarm come from, then, if we haven't actually, ever run out of something?

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]I can tell you that we're running out of natural resources. Given the human consumption of oil at the current rate, its expected that oil will be depleted and gone in the next few decades.airshocker

So you can't tell me if we've ever actually run out of a natural resource.

The answer is we haven't, by the way.

We're always finding new ways of obtaining natural resources. New ways of "drilling" for oil. It wasn't too long ago that we had no idea what hydro-fracturing was, and that has unlocked more natural gas reserves than we know what to do with.

I'm simply tired of this liberal alarmism that says we have to stop using fossil fuels because we're running out. Based on the fact that we haven't run out of ANY natural resource, I find it hard to believe.

And this hydrofracturing is contaminating rivers and going into drinking water. Hell, the PA governor is trying to pass laws giving these corporations the power of eminent domain to get more drilling area and passed gag orders on doctors not to disclose health effects of the fracking. Not worth it. And the human population count combined with the increase in consumption would outstrip any gained oil reserves.DroidPhysX

IIRC, the corporations have been fixing the incidents that have come up. And, for the record, I'm not against companies having to put up a bond that would pay for any damage they do

You can't prove that. Who says some feat of human ingeniuty won't make our oil reserves last longer? Or we'll find even more reserves with better technology sometime down the road?

Again, we've never run out of a natural resource. I fail to see why that would be the case now. Unless it's solely an attempt to alarm people into supporting green energy before it's commercially ready.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]I can tell you that we're running out of natural resources. Given the human consumption of oil at the current rate, its expected that oil will be depleted and gone in the next few decades.airshocker

So you can't tell me if we've ever actually run out of a natural resource.

The answer is we haven't, by the way.

We're always finding new ways of obtaining natural resources. New ways of "drilling" for oil. It wasn't too long ago that we had no idea what hydro-fracturing was, and that has unlocked more natural gas reserves than we know what to do with.

I'm simply tired of this liberal alarmism that says we have to stop using fossil fuels because we're running out. Based on the fact that we haven't run out of ANY natural resource, I find it hard to believe.

When in history has humanity ever used large quantities of non-renewable resources? Fossil fuel use is a blip on our radar as far as history goes. Once you mine all the coal or drill the oil its gone, unless you want to wait several hundred million years that is.

Also, do you consider animals used for consumption or sport a natural resource?

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]So if something hasn't happened then it can't happen? airshocker

Where does your alarm come from, then, if we haven't actually, ever run out of something?

When in history has humanity ever used large quantities of non-renewable resources? Fossil fuel use is a blip on our radar as far as history goes. Once you mine all the coal or drill the oil its gone, unless you want to wait several hundred million years that is.

Also, do you consider animals used for consumption or sport a natural resource?

HoolaHoopMan

Again, when have we run out of a natural resource?

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

When in history has humanity ever used large quantities of non-renewable resources? Fossil fuel use is a blip on our radar as far as history goes. Once you mine all the coal or drill the oil its gone, unless you want to wait several hundred million years that is.

Also, do you consider animals used for consumption or sport a natural resource?

airshocker

Again, when have we run out of a natural resource?

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]And this hydrofracturing is contaminating rivers and going into drinking water. Hell, the PA governor is trying to pass laws giving these corporations the power of eminent domain to get more drilling area and passed gag orders on doctors not to disclose health effects of the fracking. Not worth it. And the human population count combined with the increase in consumption would outstrip any gained oil reserves.airshocker

IIRC, the corporations have been fixing the incidents that have come up. And, for the record, I'm not against companies having to put up a bond that would pay for any damage they do

You can't prove that. Who says some feat of human ingeniuty won't make our oil reserves last longer? Or we'll find even more reserves with better technology sometime down the road?

Again, we've never run out of a natural resource. I fail to see why that would be the case now. Unless it's solely an attempt to alarm people into supporting green energy before it's commercially ready.

And the first part of the response did nothing to alleivate the concerns for eminent domain power given to corporations in the name of "natural resources".

Because we as human beings have the capacity to predict and plan for the future. In the future we will have to transition from fossil fuels to alternative energy at some point. Eventually we will be able to find another efficient source of fuel. However, we have to make sure that we don't run out of fossil fuels before we discover a reliable source of energy.

PWSteal_Ldpinch

I understand that but again, how are you judging we're going to run out of fossil fuels if we have never run out of a natural resource before?

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]And this hydrofracturing is contaminating rivers and going into drinking water. Hell, the PA governor is trying to pass laws giving these corporations the power of eminent domain to get more drilling area and passed gag orders on doctors not to disclose health effects of the fracking. Not worth it. And the human population count combined with the increase in consumption would outstrip any gained oil reserves.DroidPhysX

IIRC, the corporations have been fixing the incidents that have come up. And, for the record, I'm not against companies having to put up a bond that would pay for any damage they do

You can't prove that. Who says some feat of human ingeniuty won't make our oil reserves last longer? Or we'll find even more reserves with better technology sometime down the road?

Again, we've never run out of a natural resource. I fail to see why that would be the case now. Unless it's solely an attempt to alarm people into supporting green energy before it's commercially ready.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

When in history has humanity ever used large quantities of non-renewable resources? Fossil fuel use is a blip on our radar as far as history goes. Once you mine all the coal or drill the oil its gone, unless you want to wait several hundred million years that is.

Also, do you consider animals used for consumption or sport a natural resource?

airshocker

Again, when have we run out of a natural resource?

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="airshocker"]

IIRC, the corporations have been fixing the incidents that have come up. And, for the record, I'm not against companies having to put up a bond that would pay for any damage they do

You can't prove that. Who says some feat of human ingeniuty won't make our oil reserves last longer? Or we'll find even more reserves with better technology sometime down the road?

Again, we've never run out of a natural resource. I fail to see why that would be the case now. Unless it's solely an attempt to alarm people into supporting green energy before it's commercially ready.

kingkong0124

Not running out in the past doesn't mean we won't run out in the future. Also, in the past the world population was vastly smaller and human consumption was vastly smaller. Now, it's getting bigger and bigger and the standards of living are increasing which requires more and more natural resources. They aren't infinite. The human population has exceeded its carrying capacity by billions and no species can outrun its carrying capacity forever. DroidPhysX

I'm not saying anything is infinite.

I'm saying it seems like pure alarmist bull-sh*t. We're nowhere near running out. Technology is changing on a daily basis. Who says that in a couple decades or so green energy won't be commercially-viable? We don't know what advances the future will bring, yet we're trying to harm ourselves and our economy irreparably by trying to fix a problem that IS NO WHERE NEAR BEING A PROBLEM.

So why not drill the reserves we have now? Create jobs, maybe lower gas prices, get some much needed tax revenue without having to raise taxes?

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]

Because we as human beings have the capacity to predict and plan for the future. In the future we will have to transition from fossil fuels to alternative energy at some point. Eventually we will be able to find another efficient source of fuel. However, we have to make sure that we don't run out of fossil fuels before we discover a reliable source of energy.

airshocker

I understand that but again, how are you judging we're going to run out of fossil fuels if we have never run out of a natural resource before?

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]Not running out in the past doesn't mean we won't run out in the future. Also, in the past the world population was vastly smaller and human consumption was vastly smaller. Now, it's getting bigger and bigger and the standards of living are increasing which requires more and more natural resources. They aren't infinite. The human population has exceeded its carrying capacity by billions and no species can outrun its carrying capacity forever. airshocker

I'm not saying anything is infinite.

I'm saying it seems like pure alarmist bull-sh*t. We're nowhere near running out. Technology is changing on a daily basis. Who says that in a couple decades or so green energy won't be commercially-viable? We don't know what advances the future will bring, yet we're trying to harm ourselves and our economy irreparably by trying to fix a problem that IS NO WHERE NEAR BEING A PROBLEM.

So why not drill the reserves we have now? Create jobs, maybe lower gas prices, get some much needed tax revenue without having to raise taxes?

Because we BURN them. Do you understand? You take something, you burn it, it won't be there any more. It's not the same as solar energy. Two different types of energy, understand?PWSteal_Ldpinch

This has nothing to do with solar energy, which is inexhaustible.

Who says there won't be technology in the future that discovers massive amounts of oil reserves? Perhaps we'll even have the technology to get it?

So, again, why are you worried we're going to run out?

But it won't lower gas prices. :? That's been established via the AP on a 36 year study. You're hedging your bets on what is essentially luck.DroidPhysX

Who cares? It might, or might not. But it still creates jobs and tax revenue, which we need. Or are you saying we don't need either of those?

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]But it won't lower gas prices. :? That's been established via the AP on a 36 year study. You're hedging your bets on what is essentially luck.airshocker

Who cares? It might, or might not. But it still creates jobs and tax revenue, which we need. Or are you saying we don't need either of those?

Protip: Use global oil reserve numbers and relate them to consumption (and its rate of growth).

I'm saying that neither of those are locks to become true. And it's looking like the tax revenue part is increasingly becoming more and more false as many of these corporations are getting their taxes lowered or abolished.DroidPhysX

As an industry gets bigger, it creates jobs. Do I really need to point out the unemployment rates in North Dakota? Fine. They're at around 3% unemployment because of the oil industry in that state. With jobs come tax revenue. And most corporations pay their taxes.

It'd be easier to take the propositions of green people seriously if they'd be consistent enough to push for nuclear.

coolbeans90

Protip: Use global oil reserve numbers and relate them to consumption (and its rate of growth).

coolbeans90

But who says that number wont change as new technology becomes available?

I'm just saying it's far too early for alarm. I'm not advocating a cease in R&D of green technologies(just a cease in Obama Administration directives for R&D).

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]I'm saying that neither of those are locks to become true. And it's looking like the tax revenue part is increasingly becoming more and more false as many of these corporations are getting their taxes lowered or abolished.airshocker

As an industry gets bigger, it creates jobs. Do I really need to point out the unemployment rates in North Dakota? Fine. They're at around 3% unemployment because of the oil industry in that state. With jobs come tax revenue. And most corporations pay their taxes.

And one of the largest (if not the largest) natural resource states for fracking (PA) has lowered and exempted companies from taxes and has given them powers of the government to kick people out of their houses and not tell them of the health effects of fracking. And the unemployment rate in PA is 7.6% and it's home to the largest hydraulic fracking business.DroidPhysX

Cool. I'm pretty sure we're not talking about PA.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]And one of the largest (if not the largest) natural resource states for fracking (PA) has lowered and exempted companies from taxes and has given them powers of the government to kick people out of their houses and not tell them of the health effects of fracking. And the unemployment rate in PA is 7.6% and it's home to the largest hydraulic fracking business.airshocker

Cool. I'm pretty sure we're not talking about PA.

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]Because we BURN them. Do you understand? You take something, you burn it, it won't be there any more. It's not the same as solar energy. Two different types of energy, understand?airshocker

This has nothing to do with solar energy, which is inexhaustible.

Who says there won't be technology in the future that discovers massive amounts of oil reserves? Perhaps we'll even have the technology to get it?

So, again, why are you worried we're going to run out?

It is almost guaranteed that we will discover a reliable way to generate energy in the future. However, we have to make sure that the transition between fossil fuels and alternative fuels will be smooth. If we run out of fossil fuels before we discover another reliable source of energy then we're f*cked. The entire society and economy will collapse. That's why we have to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels and increase funding for research of alternative energy until a reliable source of energy is found.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Protip: Use global oil reserve numbers and relate them to consumption (and its rate of growth).

airshocker

But who says that number wont change as new technology becomes available?

I'm just saying it's far too early for alarm. I'm not advocating a cease in R&D of green technologies(just a cease in Obama Administration directives for R&D).

Unless it multiplies by a factor of 10, it's something we're going to have to look at. Keep in mind that the rest of the world is developing, and that means a dramatic increase in the level of oil consumption.

We're going to have to start looking at how we gradually transition when the amount of energy being produced is exceeded by the amount demanded. (butchering the technical definition of "demand" here)

It is almost guaranteed that we will discover a reliable way to generate energy in the future. However, we have to make sure that the transition between fossil fuels and alternative fuels will be smooth. If we run out of fossil fuels before we discover another reliable source of energy then we're f*cked. The entire society and economy will collapse. That's why we have to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels and increase funding for research of alternative energy until a reliable source of energy is found.

PWSteal_Ldpinch

And how do things like cap and trade, or investing billions in firms that fail, help us in that endeavor?

Sh*t, let's give green energy companies subsidies like we do with oil companies, only far better. Better than handing each individual companie grants worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

There's still no reason not to drill and exploit the reserves we have. None at all.

Unless it multiplies by a factor of 10, it's something we're going to have to look at. Keep in mind that the rest of the world is developing, and that means a dramatic increase in the level of oil consumption.

We're going to have to start looking at how we gradually transition when the amount of energy being produced is exceeded by the amount demanded. (butchering the technical definition of "demand" here)

coolbeans90

Obviously it's something we're going to have to look at. But is all this alarm really warranted?

It'd be easier to take the propositions of green people seriously if they'd be consistent enough to push for nuclear.

coolbeans90

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]And one of the largest (if not the largest) natural resource states for fracking (PA) has lowered and exempted companies from taxes and has given them powers of the government to kick people out of their houses and not tell them of the health effects of fracking. And the unemployment rate in PA is 7.6% and it's home to the largest hydraulic fracking business.DroidPhysX

Cool. I'm pretty sure we're not talking about PA.

IIRC, N.D. does drill more wells. (that said, it also has a much smaller population and likewise benefits more per well)

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Protip: Use global oil reserve numbers and relate them to consumption (and its rate of growth).

airshocker

But who says that number wont change as new technology becomes available?

I'm just saying it's far too early for alarm. I'm not advocating a cease in R&D of green technologies(just a cease in Obama Administration directives for R&D).

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Protip: Use global oil reserve numbers and relate them to consumption (and its rate of growth).

coolbeans90

But who says that number wont change as new technology becomes available?

I'm just saying it's far too early for alarm. I'm not advocating a cease in R&D of green technologies(just a cease in Obama Administration directives for R&D).

Unless it multiplies by a factor of 10, it's something we're going to have to look at. Keep in mind that the rest of the world is developing, and that means a dramatic increase in the level of oil consumption.

We're going to have to start looking at how we gradually transition when the amount of energy being produced is exceeded by the amount demanded. (butchering the technical definition of "demand" here)

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Unless it multiplies by a factor of 10, it's something we're going to have to look at. Keep in mind that the rest of the world is developing, and that means a dramatic increase in the level of oil consumption.

We're going to have to start looking at how we gradually transition when the amount of energy being produced is exceeded by the amount demanded. (butchering the technical definition of "demand" here)

airshocker

Obviously it's something we're going to have to look at. But is all this alarm really warranted?

I'm not a fan of alarmism, but energy is a serious issue. It is the lifeblood of the modern world.

So you're engaging in cherry picking?DroidPhysX

No, I gave you the reason why unemployment in ND is so low. You claim it's not a "lock" that the industry will create jobs. That's pretty ridiculous. Every industry needs to create jobs in order to grow. Especially the oil and natural gas industry.

Green R&D in the private sector is very low. There's a strong need for public investment. -Sun_Tzu-

By the Obama administration? No thanks. They haven't done a very good job at it.

There's still no reason not to drill and exploit the reserves we have. None at all.

airshocker

I already explained to you why it is better for us to hold on to our oil reserves. The price of oil at the present time will always be cheaper than it will be in the future. It is better for us to buy foreign oil now and extract our own in the future, than to extract our own oil now and be forced to buy foreign oil in the future.

I'm not a fan of alarmism, but energy is a serious issue. It is the lifeblood of the modern world.

coolbeans90

Being concerned about the future isn't the same as "HOLY SH!T, WE NEED TO PASS CAP AND TRADE, WE NEED TO ALL BECOME VEGETARIANS, AND EVERYONE NEEDS TO DRIVE JAPANESE SMART CARS OR WE'RE ALL GOING TO FVCKING DIE!"

Which, honestly, is how a lot of people are coming off.

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Unless it multiplies by a factor of 10, it's something we're going to have to look at. Keep in mind that the rest of the world is developing, and that means a dramatic increase in the level of oil consumption.

We're going to have to start looking at how we gradually transition when the amount of energy being produced is exceeded by the amount demanded. (butchering the technical definition of "demand" here)

coolbeans90

Obviously it's something we're going to have to look at. But is all this alarm really warranted?

I'm not a fan of alarmism, but energy is a serious issue. It is the lifeblood of the modern world.

I already explained to you why it is better for us to hold on to our oil reserves. The price of oil at the present time will always be cheaper than it will be in the future. It is better for us to buy foreign oil now and extract our own in the future, than to extract our own oil now and be forced to buy foreign oil in the future.

PWSteal_Ldpinch

But you still haven't proven that that scenario will actually happen.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

It'd be easier to take the propositions of green people seriously if they'd be consistent enough to push for nuclear.

-Sun_Tzu-

Which is difficult to consider a legitimate concern considering that it is one of the safest means of producing energy. Moreover, the fact that green people don't push for nuclear coupled with a holding the industry accountable as one of the pieces of policy proposal is rather perplexing. (and makes the movement less palatable as a whole)

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Green R&D in the private sector is very low. There's a strong need for public investment. airshocker

By the Obama administration? No thanks. They haven't done a very good job at it.