Why is everyone so opposed to alternative energy? Why blame Obama?

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coolbeans90

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#151 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

Obviously it's something we're going to have to look at. But is all this alarm really warranted?

PWSteal_Ldpinch

I'm not a fan of alarmism, but energy is a serious issue. It is the lifeblood of the modern world.

I'm a fan of alarmism when it comes to energy, global warming, the environment, and muslims.

I'll take your word for it.

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PWSteal_Ldpinch

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#152 PWSteal_Ldpinch
Member since 2011 • 1172 Posts

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

I'm not a fan of alarmism, but energy is a serious issue. It is the lifeblood of the modern world.

coolbeans90

I'm a fan of alarmism when it comes to energy, global warming, the environment, and muslims.

I'll take your word for it.

Just saying. Alarmism is cool. More people should be alarmed.
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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#153 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

The only junk loan that has been given out by the government was given to Solyndra. It only represents a little over 1% of the loan-guarantee programs portfolio. And most of the loan-guarantees are going towards nuclear projects anyway. -Sun_Tzu-

Hey, you're using conservative rhetoric. Be careful, man.

I'd be more comfortable with a system like we have for big oil. Dropping massive sums of money on single companies doesn't really sit that well with me.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#154 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

It'd be easier to take the propositions of green people seriously if they'd be consistent enough to push for nuclear.

coolbeans90

I'd be a lot more supportive of nuclear power if the industry was held liable for any potential damages.

Which is difficult to consider a legitimate concern considering that it is one of the safest means of producing energy. Moreover, the fact that green people don't push for nuclear coupled with a holding the industry accountable as one of the pieces of policy proposal is rather perplexing. (and makes the movement less palatable as a whole)

The thing is though is that if it's so safe then it shouldn't be an issue to make the industry liable for potential catastrophic damage. But the industry is completely against it on the grounds that it would be impossible for them to obtain liability insurance otherwise, which shouldn't be the case if it is as safe as the industry makes it out to be.
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PWSteal_Ldpinch

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#155 PWSteal_Ldpinch
Member since 2011 • 1172 Posts

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]

I already explained to you why it is better for us to hold on to our oil reserves. The price of oil at the present time will always be cheaper than it will be in the future. It is better for us to buy foreign oil now and extract our own in the future, than to extract our own oil now and be forced to buy foreign oil in the future.

airshocker

But you still haven't proven that that scenario will actually happen.

You still haven't proven that this conversation is real and not a figment of your imagination.

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#156 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

You still haven't proven that this conversation is real and not a figment of your imagination.

PWSteal_Ldpinch

I laughed.

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coolbeans90

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#157 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"] I'm a fan of alarmism when it comes to energy, global warming, the environment, and muslims.

PWSteal_Ldpinch

I'll take your word for it.

Just saying. Alarmism is cool. More people should be alarmed.

Alarmists of a decent cause tends to be disregarded like most other alarmists, who are shamsters. Delegitimizing a movement by acting like all the other loud idiots rather than beating them through rational discourse is, in my opinion, silly.

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surrealnumber5

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#158 surrealnumber5
Member since 2008 • 23044 Posts

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

I'll take your word for it.

coolbeans90

Just saying. Alarmism is cool. More people should be alarmed.

Alarmists tends to be disregarded like most other alarmists, who are shamsters. Delegitimizing a movement by acting like all the other loud idiots rather than beating them through rational discourse is, in my opinion, silly.

yea well, you wont be saying that when there is no future.
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coolbeans90

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#159 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I'd be a lot more supportive of nuclear power if the industry was held liable for any potential damages. -Sun_Tzu-

Which is difficult to consider a legitimate concern considering that it is one of the safest means of producing energy. Moreover, the fact that green people don't push for nuclear coupled with a holding the industry accountable as one of the pieces of policy proposal is rather perplexing. (and makes the movement less palatable as a whole)

The thing is though is that if it's so safe then it shouldn't be an issue to make the industry liable for potential catastrophic damage. But the industry is completely against it on the grounds that it would be impossible for them to obtain liability insurance otherwise, which shouldn't be the case if it is as safe as the industry makes it out to be.

Except it actually is safe and any claim otherwise is utterly ungrounded. All of this conjecture about liability proves simply one thing: that the industry doesn't want to pay for liability insurance. Go figure.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#160 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

that the industry doesn't want to pay for liability insurance. Go figure.

coolbeans90

Well until that happens I can't support nuclear power.

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coolbeans90

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#161 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

that the industry doesn't want to pay for liability insurance. Go figure.

-Sun_Tzu-

Well until that happens I can't support nuclear power.

Until green movement gives a serious backing to nuclear power, I can't support it due to the fact that I can't take it seriously.

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kingkong0124

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#162 kingkong0124
Member since 2012 • 8329 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

that the industry doesn't want to pay for liability insurance. Go figure.

coolbeans90

Well until that happens I can't support nuclear power.

Until green movement gives a serious backing to nuclear power, I can't support it due to the fact that I can't take it seriously.

excellent post

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#163 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

that the industry doesn't want to pay for liability insurance. Go figure.

coolbeans90

Well until that happens I can't support nuclear power.

Until green movement gives a serious backing to nuclear power, I can't support it due to the fact that I can't take it seriously.

There's good reason to be reluctant to jump on the nuclear bandwagon though. It's not like other alternative energy sources. If a solar farm fails thousands of people in the area aren't put at risk. That's not the case with nuclear power. And as safe as nuclear power may be, there will be accidents going forward, and there will be accidents caused by circumstances that no one today ever accounted for (which was the case in Japan). I'm not completely against nuclear power in principle, but I don't think it'd be wise for nuclear power to be the primary means towards alternative energy, not only because of the inherent risks involved with nuclear power and radiation (and the fact that the industry is not liable for any catastrophic damages, even in cases of incompetence, which creates an obvious moral hazard) but the overhead costs in operating these plants and keeping them safe are very high, so high that it becomes hard to justify the cost, especially when compared to other energy sources.
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coolbeans90

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#164 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Well until that happens I can't support nuclear power.

-Sun_Tzu-

Until green movement gives a serious backing to nuclear power, I can't support it due to the fact that I can't take it seriously.

There's good reason to be reluctant to jump on the nuclear bandwagon though. It's not like other alternative energy sources. If a solar farm fails thousands of people in the area aren't put at risk. That's not the case with nuclear power. And as safe as nuclear power may be, there will be accidents going forward, and there will be accidents caused by circumstances that no one today ever accounted for (which was the case in Japan). I'm not completely against nuclear power in principle, but I don't think it'd be wise for nuclear power to be the primary means towards alternative energy, not only because of the inherent risks involved with nuclear power and radiation (and the fact that the industry is not liable for any catastrophic damages, even in cases of incompetence, which creates an obvious moral hazard) but the overhead costs in operating these plants and keeping them safe are very high, so high that it becomes hard to justify the cost, especially when compared to other energy sources.

There is not actually good reason to be reluctant to jump on the nuclear bandwagon due to concerns with regards to safety taking into consideration that conventional means of power generation are significantly more dangerous. Safety concerns can be addressed and regulated. The plant in Japan was old, obsolete (from a time shortly after the inception of nuclear power) and simply not designed for the types of damage it sustained -- which can certainly be remedied by addressing a few relatively simple design flaws. In spite of its few hiccups, historically, nuclear power hasn't been the proverbial nuclear bomb warehouse awaiting detonation, and in fact, relative to its contemporaries, was remarkably safe and does not emit CO2.

Yes, there are other energy sources and they should be researched and implemented to the extent which they can for the reasons you mentioned with respect to cost, but that holds true as these energy source become more efficient. That said, part of the problem with moving away from fossil fuels is meeting energy demands in their absence. This problem is compounded by global growth and increased energy expectations. For this reason, other sources of energy are, frankly, inadequate to meet the amount energy which needs to be produced alone. Do not get me wrong; nuclear can't account for this itself, either. There is simply no single source of energy which can replace fossil fuels, and additionally, the rising global need for energy. That said, nuclear power is, over its lifetime, a comparably expensive, clean and, equally importantly, sizable source of power. Granted, nuclear power is expensive, particularly in its startup, which is part of the reason why it should not be implented exclusively. That said, its cost per KW*hr throughout its lifetime is not really higher at the present moment than other sources of energy, namely solar and wind, which are likely to be the backbone of the rest of power generation. In fact, according to the DOE, and taking into account regional efficiency which benefits solar and wind, nuclear is currently less expensive than solar and on par with wind. If there is going to be anything resembling a serious effort to replace greenhouse gas emitting sources of energy, failing to utilize nuclear power extensively is simply NOT an option.

Part of moving forward with energy reform is addressing a myriad of issues associated with them. For all of the ingenuity and effort allocated towards resolving these issues for other issues of energy, I cannot reiterate enough how puzzled I am with some of the environmentally-minded liberals simply not focusing on eliminating barriers to the implementation of nuclear energy and eliminating solvable problems such as accountability and waste management. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a realistic option if there is any shot at significantly scaling down greenhouse gas emissions (until the peak, anyway, but I don't think waiting until then is a good option, either). Yet I immediately see the understandable criticisms of the right wing when they seek to end gov't programs due to waste. There is also the fact that this is the one source of alternative energy which the right isn't throwing a b!tch fit about and seems to want to implement. Perhaps it would be premature to call out partisanship as the cause of the squabble, but at the very least, the vast majority of hesitance to forward the implantation of nuclear energy seems to result from irrational paranoia, jeopardizes the efforts to move away from fossil fuels, and ultimately delegitimizes the movement as a practical effort to actually accomplish its goals which I happen to sympathize with.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#165 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
tl;dr
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coolbeans90

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#166 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

:(

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chessmaster1989

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#167 chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts
Can't blame Sun_Tzu for that one CB.
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PWSteal_Ldpinch

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#168 PWSteal_Ldpinch
Member since 2011 • 1172 Posts
Can't blame Sun_Tzu for that one CB.chessmaster1989
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surrealnumber5

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#169 surrealnumber5
Member since 2008 • 23044 Posts
yea beans, its your fault for caring.
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coolbeans90

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#170 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

but guys

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surrealnumber5

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#171 surrealnumber5
Member since 2008 • 23044 Posts
i read it but im not in the debate, so on some nonexistent level it mattered.
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#172 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
But I will say on your point about Japan, that is exactly what I'm saying. There will always be design flaws, and while it is easy to say that safety concerns can be addressed through regulation, it is another thing for them to actually be addressed. In the case of Japan, the incident was exacerbated by the use of zircaloy fuel rods. The dangers posed by these fuel rods was well known by the industry, but a miscalculation was made that the benefits outweigh the costs. The future of nuclear power is not immune from similar miscalculations. Not only that but it's impossible to even consider all the potential scenarios that can lead to nuclear accidents. And when a nuclear accident does occur, it is exponentially more dangerous then other potential accident posed by other sources of energy.
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PWSteal_Ldpinch

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#173 PWSteal_Ldpinch
Member since 2011 • 1172 Posts
yea beans, its your fault for caring. surrealnumber5
Even though beans ain't my bro, I appreciate the time and effort that it took for him to write that wall of text.
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coolbeans90

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#174 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]yea beans, its your fault for caring. PWSteal_Ldpinch
Even though beans ain't my bro, I appreciate the time and effort that it took for him to write that wall of text.

thx : >

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coolbeans90

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#175 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

But I will say on your point about Japan, that is exactly what I'm saying. There will always be design flaws, and while it is easy to say that safety concerns can be addressed through regulation, it is another thing for them to actually be addressed. In the case of Japan, the incident was exacerbated by the use of zircaloy fuel rods. The dangers posed by these fuel rods was well known by the industry, but a miscalculation was made that the benefits outweigh the costs. The future of nuclear power is not immune from similar miscalculations. Not only that but it's impossible to even consider all the potential scenarios that can lead to nuclear accidents. And when a nuclear accident does occur, it is exponentially more dangerous then other potential accident posed by other sources of energy. -Sun_Tzu-

There will always be flaws. These will become increasingly fewer as time goes on. A little emphasis on having an increased factor of safety will indubitably result from the Fukishima incident. There really aren't that many potential scenarios to lead up to such disaster. It is very difficult to imagine a worse scenario that Fukishima: Earthquake + Tsunami damaging an archaic plant coupled with location in a population center. No one died directly from the incident. In a more modern plant, such a natural disaster could be virtually a non-issue.

ADDENDUM: France has significantly lower CO_2 emissions per kW*hr than its neighbors.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#176 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]But I will say on your point about Japan, that is exactly what I'm saying. There will always be design flaws, and while it is easy to say that safety concerns can be addressed through regulation, it is another thing for them to actually be addressed. In the case of Japan, the incident was exacerbated by the use of zircaloy fuel rods. The dangers posed by these fuel rods was well known by the industry, but a miscalculation was made that the benefits outweigh the costs. The future of nuclear power is not immune from similar miscalculations. Not only that but it's impossible to even consider all the potential scenarios that can lead to nuclear accidents. And when a nuclear accident does occur, it is exponentially more dangerous then other potential accident posed by other sources of energy. coolbeans90

There will always be flaws. These will become increasingly fewer as time goes on. A little emphasis on having an increased factor of safety will indubitably result from the Fukishima incident. There really aren't that many potential scenarios to lead up to such disaster. It is very difficult to imagine a worse scenario that Fukishima: Earthquake + Tsunami damaging an archaic plant coupled with location in a population center. No one died directly from the incident. In a more modern plant, such a natural disaster could be virtually a non-issue.

No one prior to the Japan disaster thought that the disaster was possible. And maybe now nuclear facilities will be better equipped to deal with earthquakes and tsunamis of the magnitude that struck Japan, but what if some other natural disaster occurs that their nuclear facilities are not well equipped to deal with? For example, what if Mount Fuji has a huge eruption? Are Japan's nuclear facilities properly fitted to deal with such a disaster? Black swan events happen all the time. History is riddled with crises that were never even comprehended of prior to their occurrence.
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Serraph105

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#177 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

that the industry doesn't want to pay for liability insurance. Go figure.

coolbeans90

Well until that happens I can't support nuclear power.

Until green movement gives a serious backing to nuclear power, I can't support it due to the fact that I can't take it seriously.

I often wonder if Nuclear Power is actually financially viable while maintaining the highest safety procedures.
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#178 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Well until that happens I can't support nuclear power.

Serraph105

Until green movement gives a serious backing to nuclear power, I can't support it due to the fact that I can't take it seriously.

I often wonder if Nuclear Power is actually financially viable while maintaining the highest safety procedures.

It isn't according to credit rating agencies, banks, ect.
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coolbeans90

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#179 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]But I will say on your point about Japan, that is exactly what I'm saying. There will always be design flaws, and while it is easy to say that safety concerns can be addressed through regulation, it is another thing for them to actually be addressed. In the case of Japan, the incident was exacerbated by the use of zircaloy fuel rods. The dangers posed by these fuel rods was well known by the industry, but a miscalculation was made that the benefits outweigh the costs. The future of nuclear power is not immune from similar miscalculations. Not only that but it's impossible to even consider all the potential scenarios that can lead to nuclear accidents. And when a nuclear accident does occur, it is exponentially more dangerous then other potential accident posed by other sources of energy. -Sun_Tzu-

There will always be flaws. These will become increasingly fewer as time goes on. A little emphasis on having an increased factor of safety will indubitably result from the Fukishima incident. There really aren't that many potential scenarios to lead up to such disaster. It is very difficult to imagine a worse scenario that Fukishima: Earthquake + Tsunami damaging an archaic plant coupled with location in a population center. No one died directly from the incident. In a more modern plant, such a natural disaster could be virtually a non-issue.

No one prior to the Japan disaster thought that the disaster was possible. And maybe now nuclear facilities will be better equipped to deal with earthquakes and tsunamis of the magnitude that struck Japan, but what if some other natural disaster occurs that their nuclear facilities are not well equipped to deal with? For example, what if Mount Fuji has a huge eruption? Are Japan's nuclear facilities properly fitted to deal with such a disaster? Black swan events happen all the time. History is riddled with crises that were never even comprehended of prior to their occurrence.

There are a limited number of ways that systems fail. Black Swan events invariably happen due to the fact that there are millions of systems and not all of them are designed around avoiding a few possible systematic failures, and often are not even observed. Some systems are devoted a bit of research and are designed robustly in order to assure that they don't fail. Fukishima was built 40 years ago and handled an unbelievably harsh set of natural disasters without death in a population center. Mount Fuji erupting would be similar than being stuck by an aircraft, which these things are designed for. Reality is precisely this: nuclear incidents do not happen frequently and the likelihood of future event occurring is less, when they do occur, they have been, relatively speaking, manageable. By any measure, nuclear power is safe and objections to it on those grounds are largely without merit. Meanwhile, France contributes far, far less CO_2 per kW*hr than rest the developed world and in that respect is in a much better position to systematically deal with climate change insofar as energy production is concerned.

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coolbeans90

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#180 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Well until that happens I can't support nuclear power.

Serraph105

Until green movement gives a serious backing to nuclear power, I can't support it due to the fact that I can't take it seriously.

I often wonder if Nuclear Power is actually financially viable while maintaining the highest safety procedures.

According to the Department of Energy (not to mention, France and Britain) nuclear power is significant;y less expensive per kW*hr than solar and on par with wind.