Why is it morally objectionable to allow illegal immigrants to get healthcare?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]I'd think it is morally objectionable to not allow others to have healthcare. The biggest issues are paying for it and giving something paid by tax payers to those who do not pay taxes. Because of those two things, it's hard to simply give healthcare away from an economic standpoint.rawsavon

Thank you...finally someone else who would not deny a fellow person medical care.
I understand not wanting to give stuff away...but this is not like other "things"...this is people's lives

I'm in no way a fan of socialism, increasing the size of the government, etc. but people need help. I'd love it if the church were to increase in such a way that it would provide for the needy, the sick, the elderly, etc. That should be the church's job but sadly that is not the case anymore. Apparently I give "conservatism" a whole new meaning. :P

I'll give you an analogy: You work, hard, for a company, and you get a promotion finally after a lot of good work. Suddenly, some guy off the street comes in and for God-knows-why reason, they give him the same position, and he doesn't even WORK there. It's something like that, if it does come down to something as drastic as a public option, Americans deserve healthcare, not the guys who jumped the border and showed up out of nowhere.Pyro767

that sort of thing really bugs me, we as a human race have built a society on helping others, helping others by giving them our services, thats how our culture functions, why should helping others with there health be a bad things? screw who they are, if they are a decent person whos just trying to make a living i say help them

This wouldn't even be an issue if it were easier to get residency in this country. Illegals already contribute a ton to our economy, and use very few resources in return. They deserve a chance to better themselves, don't you think?

that sort of thing really bugs me, we as a human race have built a society on helping others, helping others by giving them our services, thats how our culture functions, why should helping others with there health be a bad things? screw who they are, if they are a decent person whos just trying to make a living i say help them

linkin_guy109

Very well put. So many people fail to realize that we are social animals who act ideally in a mutualistic community. It's human nature, and it's barbaric to deny these people healthcare solely on their income. If that's not discrimination, I don't know what is.

[QUOTE="linkin_guy109"]

that sort of thing really bugs me, we as a human race have built a society on helping others, helping others by giving them our services, thats how our culture functions, why should helping others with there health be a bad things? screw who they are, if they are a decent person whos just trying to make a living i say help them

Hot-Tamale

Very well put. So many people fail to realize that we are social animals who act ideally in a mutualistic community. It's human nature, and it's barbaric to deny these people healthcare solely on their income. If that's not discrimination, I don't know what is.

I would think it morally objectionable to not offer them healthcare. Could the system support this practice if too many non-taxpayers depended on us for healthcare? Probably not, but from a moral perspective I would think it wrong to reject someone healthcare when they're in need.

Wasn't it already confirmed in Obama's speech yesterday that illegal immigrants wouldn't be given the healthcare option?

Some of them do pay taxes though. The IRS and the immigration department are completely separate. The IRS just wants its tax money, so they won't report illegals.

So it should be if you pay taxes, even if you're an illegal immigrant, you should be covered.

They aren't going to give illegal immigrants healthcare unless they are children, and the thing hasn't even passes yet, so no one gets it unless they have insurance.

[QUOTE="Pyro767"]I'll give you an analogy: You work, hard, for a company, and you get a promotion finally after a lot of good work. Suddenly, some guy off the street comes in and for God-knows-why reason, they give him the same position, and he doesn't even WORK there. It's something like that, if it does come down to something as drastic as a public option, Americans deserve healthcare, not the guys who jumped the border and showed up out of nowhere.rawsavon

What the hell, why should anyone have to pay? It's all free guys! Yeah, we're moral! *feels better about self*

Guess what, this junk sounds good on a internet forum but in real life, things cost money. If you start giving out free rides you break the system. Take a High School Economics course and this issue should be cleared up. Heck, you shouldn't even have to take a class.

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

[QUOTE="linkin_guy109"]

that sort of thing really bugs me, we as a human race have built a society on helping others, helping others by giving them our services, thats how our culture functions, why should helping others with there health be a bad things? screw who they are, if they are a decent person whos just trying to make a living i say help them

rawsavon

Very well put. So many people fail to realize that we are social animals who act ideally in a mutualistic community. It's human nature, and it's barbaric to deny these people healthcare solely on their income. If that's not discrimination, I don't know what is.

Oh, how flattering :oops:.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Pyro767"]I'll give you an analogy: You work, hard, for a company, and you get a promotion finally after a lot of good work. Suddenly, some guy off the street comes in and for God-knows-why reason, they give him the same position, and he doesn't even WORK there. It's something like that, if it does come down to something as drastic as a public option, Americans deserve healthcare, not the guys who jumped the border and showed up out of nowhere.limpbizkit818

What the hell, why should anyone have to pay? It's all free guys! Yeah, we're moral! *feels better about self*

Guess what, this junk sounds good on a internet forum but in real life, things cost money. If you start giving out free rides you break the system. Take a High School Economics course and this issue should be cleared up. Heck, you shouldn't even have to take a class.

Lol, nice straw man dude. :|

Because they're here illegally.....blackngold29

Its wrong because they dont pay taxes.

Its wrong because, by doing so, they really would leech off the system, as opposed to just cruising under the radar like they do now.

I have no problems with illegal immigrants. They are a great asset to this country (at least to the Cal agriculute industry they are), and in return for their hard work they make more money than they ever could back in mexico. The system is fine how it is...we regulate the border, some get through, we catch a few, and we get broccoli for 99 cents a pound or less.

PS: I support illegal immigrants in the US "unofficially" but we just cant give them the same rights as american citizens. They know what they signed up with, and trust me...theyre getting an amazing deal.

People that want to give them rights are bleeding heart ultra liberals...I dont like the extremes of either side of the argument; we just gotta meet in the middle

[QUOTE="bobaban"][QUOTE="starfox15"]

If you aren't a legal citizen of the U.S., then you don't deserve health care. In fact, you don't deserve anything.

rawsavon

Do I control who enters the workforce? If I had my way they'd be gone and those jobs occupied by citizens. And hell yes I would deny illegal aliens medical care, lord knows the last thing we need to 'fix' the problem is to create another incentive for them to hop the border over here.

I don't understand why ILLEGAL immigrants should get anything but a plane ride and a parachute back to their native homes.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I would presume the obvious answer would be that they do not pay taxes that they would were they a lawful resident; therefore they are taking out without giving in what others are expected to give in.

Not that I'm in favor of the public option (I'm vehemently against it), but this particular sentiment seems immoral and overtly nationalist.

I don't understand why ILLEGAL immigrants should get anything but a plane ride and a parachute back to their native homes.

rjxtian

You have any idea how much that would cost? :lol:

No, but it's just not feasible to give healthcare to those who do not pay taxes.

[QUOTE="limpbizkit818"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] Not even close to the same. I don't WANT to give stuff away either...but I will not deny someone medical care. I want to know how many of you could stand at the front of a hospital and tell kids with broken arms, severe infections, etc. that you will not help them because their parents did not pay taxes. Also, many do not pay taxes, but they make our lives much easier...make many things cost WAAAAY less...so it is a trade off. if they are all legal = min. wage = things no longer as cheap as they arechessmaster1989

What the hell, why should anyone have to pay? It's all free guys! Yeah, we're moral! *feels better about self*

Guess what, this junk sounds good on a internet forum but in real life, things cost money. If you start giving out free rides you break the system. Take a High School Economics course and this issue should be cleared up. Heck, you shouldn't even have to take a class.

Lol, nice straw man dude. :|

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Pyro767"]I'll give you an analogy: You work, hard, for a company, and you get a promotion finally after a lot of good work. Suddenly, some guy off the street comes in and for God-knows-why reason, they give him the same position, and he doesn't even WORK there. It's something like that, if it does come down to something as drastic as a public option, Americans deserve healthcare, not the guys who jumped the border and showed up out of nowhere.limpbizkit818

What the hell, why should anyone have to pay? It's all free guys! Yeah, we're moral! *feels better about self*

Guess what, this junk sounds good on a internet forum but in real life, things cost money. If you start giving out free rides you break the system. Take a High School Economics course and this issue should be cleared up. Heck, you shouldn't even have to take a class.

Trust me when I say that I am WAY more educated than you are...so I do not need to take any additional courses to understand the issue.
If you READ my post, you would see that I do not like the idea of giving stuff away either.
BUT
Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do what is right...not what is least expensive.
Personally, I am not ok with denying a fellow person medical care.
Yes, it bothers me that they did not pay into the system.
But I would rather pay more in taxes and do "the right thing".

Also, you need to consider ALL THE BENEFITS you get from illegal aliens...reduced housing costs, cheaper gas, cheaper fruits/vegitables...just to name a few.
Furthermore, our emergency rooms DO NOT TURN PEOPLE AWAY...PERIOD.
So we ARE going to pay the huge costs of emergency care for illegal aliens.
It would be cheaper in the long run to pay for the preventative medicine...just like it is cheaper to pay to have your oil changed on a regular basis than it is to replace your entire engine when it blows out from lack of care.

[QUOTE="TwiztidJoker"]Not wrong to provide with healthcare, as in allow use of our hospitals, but to give them free health insurance? That I don't agree with. They're in the country illegally, how would they even app for it?nocoolnamejim

SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.HR 3200

They are already paying that money at a far higher rate due to the illegals going to the emergency room to begin with. The conservative side of the arguement seems to be full of stupidity of either half truths or absolute complete lies.. The fact taht death panels is still a huge talking point for conservatives shows how dumb the party has become in the past decades.

but why not? Dont you think its immoral for the Government to deny certain people services just because they happen to be born on some other arbitrarily defined plot of land?

danwallacefan

The idea that immigrant workers are poor on average is by and large false. I know several who make more than i do simply because they dont have to pay taxes on top of group housing.

I know i couldnt afford a new 1/2 ton truck with spinners on it but they seem to be able to just fine.

I'm not against illegal immigrants acquiring their healthcare. They can go to a insurance company and purchase insurance. My hopes are that in that process they are apprehended and sent packing. None of the money that taxpayers provide should fund anything for them other than a one-way ticket home along with a pamphlet describing the correct way to emigrate. Require identification or proof of citizenship or proof of insurance at hospitals and ERs before treatment occurs. This will make illegal immigration to the US less desirable if you can't get any medical attention. Harsh? Yes. Effective? Yes.

I'm not against illegal immigrants acquiring their healthcare. They can go to a insurance company and purchase insurance. My hopes are that in that process they are apprehended and sent packing. None of the money that taxpayers provide should fund anything for them other than a one-way ticket home along with a pamphlet describing the correct way to emigrate. Require identification or proof of citizenship or proof of insurance at hospitals and ERs before treatment occurs. This will make illegal immigration to the US less desirable if you can't get any medical attention. Harsh? Yes. Effective? Yes.

FragStains

I find entering any country illegally "morally objectionable".

I'd find rewarding such illegal behavior with the gift of free access to the best heathcare in the world downright insane.

However, as has been posted, the current health care proposals do not provide for such access.

So I listen to a lot of conservative talk radio, and I keep hearing the conservative pundits complain that the Public option being considered by Congress may cover illegal immigrants. Why do they complain about this? Some even say that it is just basic human decency to not give illegal aliens public health insurance.

So yeah, I'm not getting why this is morally objectionable.

Trust me when I say that I am WAY more educated than you are...so I do not need to take any additional courses to understand the issue.
If you READ my post, you would see that I do not like the idea of giving stuff away either.

rawsavon

Ok, keep telling yourself that :lol: The fact that you would make such a statement over the internet (for the sole purpose of expanding your ego) makes me question its validity.

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do what is right...not what is least expensive.
Personally, I am not ok with denying a fellow person medical care.
Yes, it bothers me that they did not pay into the system.
But I would rather pay more in taxes and do "the right thing".

Also, you need to consider ALL THE BENEFITS you get from illegal aliens...reduced housing costs, cheaper gas, cheaper fruits/vegitables...just to name a few.
Furthermore, our emergency rooms DO NOT TURN PEOPLE AWAY...PERIOD.
So we ARE going to pay the huge costs of emergency care for illegal aliens.
It would be cheaper in the long run to pay for the preventative medicine...just like it is cheaper to pay to have your oil changed on a regular basis than it is to replace your entire engine when it blows out from lack of care.

rawsavon

And I was under the impression that we were talking about more than just the emergency room. By providing all forms of healthcare to illegals you are in fact hurting everyone who pays into the system. I would rather not be force to contribute to a system that is going to go bust in my own life time because there are millions of people mooching off it.

My main concern isn't the immigrants. I am worried that healthcare reform will lead to more taxpayer funded abortions.

If you aren't a legal citizen of the U.S., then you don't deserve health care. In fact, you don't deserve anything. If I went to another country and demanded civilian services and I wasn't a citizen, I would expect to be deported. It's pretty basic logic here folks.

I pay taxes on everything. What would provoke illegal immigrants to think they can have anything for free in America? I consider myself fiercely liberal. I don't like a lot of things in the U.S., but I happen to agree with the idea that illegals don't deserve a damn thing.

And you can point to the fact that most Americans that came to America were "kinda" illegal, but at least they came on a boat. And signed in. And then started paying taxes.

When illegal immigrants start paying taxes like the rest of us, then I'll start to change how I feel. As is, they don't deserve jack.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

Trust me when I say that I am WAY more educated than you are...so I do not need to take any additional courses to understand the issue.
If you READ my post, you would see that I do not like the idea of giving stuff away either.

limpbizkit818

Ok, keep telling yourself that :lol: The fact that you would make such a statement over the internet (for the sole purpose of expanding your ego) makes me question its validity.

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do what is right...not what is least expensive.
Personally, I am not ok with denying a fellow person medical care.
Yes, it bothers me that they did not pay into the system.
But I would rather pay more in taxes and do "the right thing".

Also, you need to consider ALL THE BENEFITS you get from illegal aliens...reduced housing costs, cheaper gas, cheaper fruits/vegitables...just to name a few.
Furthermore, our emergency rooms DO NOT TURN PEOPLE AWAY...PERIOD.
So we ARE going to pay the huge costs of emergency care for illegal aliens.
It would be cheaper in the long run to pay for the preventative medicine...just like it is cheaper to pay to have your oil changed on a regular basis than it is to replace your entire engine when it blows out from lack of care.

rawsavon

And I was under the impression that we were talking about more than just the emergency room. By providing all forms of healthcare to illegals you are in fact hurting everyone who pays into the system. I would rather not be force to contribute to a system that is going to go bust in my own life time because there are millions of people mooching off it.

Actually, you are the one that brought up education.
You stated that I only needed a HS economics cla$$ to understand your point.
Your quote:
"Take a High School Economics course and this issue should be cleared up"
I was simply pointing out that I have taken more than enough courses to understand the topic at hand...get back to me when you get your 4th degree.

If you read my post, you will see that I said WE WILL ALWAYS GIVE EMERGENCY ROOM CARE...ALWAYS.
But that this is not cost effective. Taking care of a problem when it gets to that level is the most expensive/least efficient way to fix it...the oil change in the car example.
I would rather pay for $500 in yearly office visits and $100+ worth of meds on a yearly basis for someone than pay $100,000 for a preventable surgery and hospital stay.

Some people in this world want to help their fellow man...and some people are like you.
You act like these are all evil people trying to steal from you.
Most are hard workers (probably more so than you or I) that only want better for their families.
They endure crappy jobs, contribute to the economy, keep prices low, and live in constant fear on being deported.
The sad thing is that this is still better than where they are from.
And it is not like they are asking for any of this.

I for one would rather help people if I can.
What is a few (and I mean few) extra dollars a week more than the insurance we pay for now to you or I...if it takes $25 more a month to help a lot of people have better, healthier lives then I am all for it.
It is the moral thing to do (the original question)...and if you look at the costs of preventative medicine vs emergency care, it is also the best economic choice.

[QUOTE="starfox15"]

If you aren't a legal citizen of the U.S., then you don't deserve health care. In fact, you don't deserve anything. If I went to another country and demanded civilian services and I wasn't a citizen, I would expect to be deported. It's pretty basic logic here folks.

I pay taxes on everything. What would provoke illegal immigrants to think they can have anything for free in America? I consider myself fiercely liberal. I don't like a lot of things in the U.S., but I happen to agree with the idea that illegals don't deserve a damn thing.

And you can point to the fact that most Americans that came to America were "kinda" illegal, but at least they came on a boat. And signed in. And then started paying taxes.

When illegal immigrants start paying taxes like the rest of us, then I'll start to change how I feel. As is, they don't deserve jack.

jiggaloj

I couldn't agree with you more.

Agreed, they need to pay up to expect anything but jack-squat and to be able to pay up they need to be legalized. Just wait though, comprehensive immigration reform is on the way soon, they're likely gonna make all of the illegals legal so magically they will be elligible. God I dislike this government, both sides of the 2 party system sham system.

WE WILL ALWAYS GIVE EMERGENCY ROOM CARE...ALWAYS.rawsavon

[QUOTE="FragStains"]

I'm not against illegal immigrants acquiring their healthcare. They can go to a insurance company and purchase insurance. My hopes are that in that process they are apprehended and sent packing. None of the money that taxpayers provide should fund anything for them other than a one-way ticket home along with a pamphlet describing the correct way to emigrate. Require identification or proof of citizenship or proof of insurance at hospitals and ERs before treatment occurs. This will make illegal immigration to the US less desirable if you can't get any medical attention. Harsh? Yes. Effective? Yes.

sSubZerOo

The government option won't be free. it will cost slightly less than a private insurance policy, or slightly more yet give you more coverage for the dollar.

If illegals are denied than we pay for their healthcare through our emergency room bills. we DO pay for illegals RIGHT NOW... thats what those clowns don't tell you, giving anyone foreign or domestic the option to BUY our healthcare plan will put MORE money into the program itself.

This depends on if Obamas plan for a SELF SUSTAINED program works out. in a program that cost ZERO what is the harm in covering illegals? nothing, if the plan works then we would actually save money by covering them because we wouldn't pay for their rediculous emergency room bills like we do right now.

But, who knows how it will all work out, its a chance we may need to take.

Fear of change is the easiest fear to spread. even if the status quo is 100% guaranteed to kill you people are afraid of change. Republicans base their entire ideology off of fear in a changing world. There is plenty to fear, lets market that fear and run for office!

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] WE WILL ALWAYS GIVE EMERGENCY ROOM CARE...ALWAYS.Vandalvideo

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] WE WILL ALWAYS GIVE EMERGENCY ROOM CARE...ALWAYS.Ontain

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] WE WILL ALWAYS GIVE EMERGENCY ROOM CARE...ALWAYS.Vandalvideo