Why piracy is not like stealing in a store

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

We might be talking about different things. I'm talking about a man who purchases a ticket to one film, a few minutes into it decides it's not interesting him, so we walkes out of that movie and into the one playing next to it. No matter what movie he bought the ticket for and ultimately sits down to watch he's not taking anything that he hasn't paid for.

worlock77

That may be, but that isn't what ad1x2 is arguing. He's arguing that it's stealing from the theater.

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"]They're both wrong, so they're both stealing. Case closed.N30F3N1X

It's arguments like these that make me think Gandhi was too optimist with his dirty drops in an ocean analogy.

Piracy = preservation.

Were it not for people illegally recording old episodes of Dr Who, the BBC would have lost footage of those older episodes forever due to their policy of recycling film at the time.

That is my two cents.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Wouldn't that mean one movies got a box receipt but the one with no ticket purchases didn't? Movie profits are based on receipts are they not....so it would hurt the movie he watched without a ticket while benefiting a different movie company, distributor etc.LJS9502_basic

That may be, but that isn't what ad1x2 is arguing. He's arguing that it's stealing from the theater.

Now with that said I really don't know how much of the box office the theater keeps. I know that most of the money goes back to the distributor, but I believe the actual percentage can vary over the course of the movie's run at the theater.

I know the difference between the two but they are both still unethical.

It doesn't fall flat because it amounts to the same thing, theft. Both cases result in you stealing something that does not rightfully belong to you. The fact that it's physical or intangible is completely irrelevant. Ghost_702

I know the difference between the two but they are both still unethical.

whiskeystrike

Piracy is illegal, not unethical.

If it does not belong to you and you take it without the owner's permission you are a no good, low down dirty god damn thief. I don't care if you take by stuffing it down your pants at walmart or you take by clicking on a virtual button in your browser. If you know it belongs to someone else, and you know they expect to be paid by you before they willingly give their permission to use it, and you take it anyway, without paying, you are a **** thief. End of discussion. Don't like being called a thief? Stop stealing other people's property.collegeboy64

If I download an album I have stolen nothing from anybody. I have infringed on their copyright perhaps, but I have deprived them of no property.

[QUOTE="collegeboy64"]If it does not belong to you and you take it without the owner's permission you are a no good, low down dirty god damn thief. I don't care if you take by stuffing it down your pants at walmart or you take by clicking on a virtual button in your browser. If you know it belongs to someone else, and you know they expect to be paid by you before they willingly give their permission to use it, and you take it anyway, without paying, you are a **** thief. End of discussion. Don't like being called a thief? Stop stealing other people's property.foxhound_fox

Yeah.

Piracy is like this:

-

Pretend you go to a furniture store to buy a chair.

In your pocket you have a magical chair scanner that allows you to make an exact copy of that chair.

So, you avoid the security cameras and the guards, and you illegally scan the chair.

Once you get home, you press another button on the scanner and a copy of the chair appears in your living room.

You didn't steal anything, as the chair is still located at the store.

But you were able to get a chair for your own, robbing the furniture store of the purchase price, as you didn't give them any money.

-

Piracy is not stealing.

But you do you get a copy of something that normally costs money...completely free.

Whether that is ethical or not is another debate.

-

Some people say "If the furniture store was smart, they would have made the chair uncopyable."

Other people say "The furniture store needs to keep up with the times."

Nothing is being "taken." FFS, when will people stop becoming so emotionally involved in this and just realize that copyright infringement is a different crime than theft.foxhound_fox

People who say that are both bigots and law and IT illiterates.

There's no point in trying to use logic or getting angry at them because they simply don't want to understand what you're saying.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="collegeboy64"]If it does not belong to you and you take it without the owner's permission you are a no good, low down dirty god damn thief. I don't care if you take by stuffing it down your pants at walmart or you take by clicking on a virtual button in your browser. If you know it belongs to someone else, and you know they expect to be paid by you before they willingly give their permission to use it, and you take it anyway, without paying, you are a **** thief. End of discussion. Don't like being called a thief? Stop stealing other people's property.collegeboy64

The only problem is that we can't magically make copies of tables.

There's a direct one-to-one exchange that happens when you buy a table or a chair.

It's just not the same digitally.

Call it "equivalent exchange" all you wan't.

But we humans don't associate digital files in the same way as we do physical objects.

-

The intangibility of digital files devalues them.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="collegeboy64"]If it does not belong to you and you take it without the owner's permission you are a no good, low down dirty god damn thief. I don't care if you take by stuffing it down your pants at walmart or you take by clicking on a virtual button in your browser. If you know it belongs to someone else, and you know they expect to be paid by you before they willingly give their permission to use it, and you take it anyway, without paying, you are a **** thief. End of discussion. Don't like being called a thief? Stop stealing other people's property.peterw007

Yeah.

Piracy is like this:

-

Pretend you go to a furniture store to buy a chair.

In your pocket you have a magical chair scanner that allows you to make an exact copy of that chair.

So, you avoid the security cameras and the guards, and you illegally scan the chair.

Once you get home, you press another button on the scanner and a copy of the chair appears in your living room.

You didn't steal anything, as the chair is still located at the store.

But you were able to get a chair for your own, robbing the furniture store of the purchase price, as you didn't give them any money.

-

Piracy is not stealing.

But you do you get a copy of something that normally costs money...completely free.

Whether that is ethical or not is another debate.

-

Some people say "If the furniture store was smart, they would have made the chair uncopyable."

Other people say "The furniture store needs to keep up with the times."

[QUOTE="collegeboy64"]If it does not belong to you and you take it without the owner's permission you are a no good, low down dirty god damn thief. I don't care if you take by stuffing it down your pants at walmart or you take by clicking on a virtual button in your browser. If you know it belongs to someone else, and you know they expect to be paid by you before they willingly give their permission to use it, and you take it anyway, without paying, you are a **** thief. End of discussion. Don't like being called a thief? Stop stealing other people's property.worlock77

If I download an album I have stolen nothing from anybody. I have infringed on their copyright perhaps, but I have deprived them of no property.

[QUOTE="peterw007"]

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"] Nothing is being "taken." FFS, when will people stop becoming so emotionally involved in this and just realize that copyright infringement is a different crime than theft.collegeboy64

Yeah.

Piracy is like this:

-

Pretend you go to a furniture store to buy a chair.

In your pocket you have a magical chair scanner that allows you to make an exact copy of that chair.

So, you avoid the security cameras and the guards, and you illegally scan the chair.

Once you get home, you press another button on the scanner and a copy of the chair appears in your living room.

You didn't steal anything, as the chair is still located at the store.

But you were able to get a chair for your own, robbing the furniture store of the purchase price, as you didn't give them any money.

-

Piracy is not stealing.

But you do you get a copy of something that normally costs money...completely free.

Whether that is ethical or not is another debate.

-

Some people say "If the furniture store was smart, they would have made the chair uncopyable."

Other people say "The furniture store needs to keep up with the times."

The analogy is absurd because there's no correlation between the physical and the digital world.

"Skill, effort, and imagination."

All of those are instrumental goods.

By themselves they are worthless...they are only good insofar as they create a product, like a chair.

The chair itself is the only aspect that has any inherent value.

-

And "stealing" means the unlawful seizure of an object from its owner.

-

So when you copy the chair, you share its "skill, effort, and imagination" with others.

You don't seize the chair away from its owner, as that implies the owner no longer has the chair.

You unlawfully share it without the permission of the owner.

There's a difference.

I guess people fail to realize that if piracy wasn't illegal almost everyone would do it and if everyone did it the developers wouldn't make money. If they don't make money they can't afford to make new products, which means no more media to enjoy.ad1x2

You have no clue about business. Please refrain from posting.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="collegeboy64"]If it does not belong to you and you take it without the owner's permission you are a no good, low down dirty god damn thief. I don't care if you take by stuffing it down your pants at walmart or you take by clicking on a virtual button in your browser. If you know it belongs to someone else, and you know they expect to be paid by you before they willingly give their permission to use it, and you take it anyway, without paying, you are a **** thief. End of discussion. Don't like being called a thief? Stop stealing other people's property.collegeboy64

If I download an album I have stolen nothing from anybody. I have infringed on their copyright perhaps, but I have deprived them of no property.

[QUOTE="collegeboy64"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

If I download an album I have stolen nothing from anybody. I have infringed on their copyright perhaps, but I have deprived them of no property.

SaintWalrus

You'd simply HAVE a plumber, who would fix the problem.

Although im not sure how one "deletes" a plumber when the no longer need him... They are humans, right?

I'm done debating with all of you justifying taking what doesn't belong to you by calling it piracy, or kabuki dancing, or whatever the hell you want to call it. Just know this. If you ever create an intellectual item from your own ingenuity and creativity combined with hard work, and then see it being spread around by people who had nothing to do with creating it and refuse to pay you for what you created, you'll have an entirely different take on this. In other words, if you ever find yourself being the one having their intellectual property stolen, instead of being the one doing the stealing, you'll despise the low lifes taking from you. Buy hey, keep on downloading **** for free and telling yourself you are not a thief. Maybe if you tell yourself that lie long enough and loud enough, you'll convince yourself its true.collegeboy64

Aaaaand as I said before...

A bigot AND a law and IT illiterate.

Flawless ;)

I'm done debating with all of you justifying taking what doesn't belong to you by calling it piracy, or kabuki dancing, or whatever the hell you want to call it. Just know this. If you ever create an intellectual item from your own ingenuity and creativity combined with hard work, and then see it being spread around by people who had nothing to do with creating it and refuse to pay you for what you created, you'll have an entirely different take on this. In other words, if you ever find yourself being the one having their intellectual property stolen, instead of being the one doing the stealing, you'll despise the low lifes taking from you. Buy hey, keep on downloading **** for free and telling yourself you are not a thief. Maybe if you tell yourself that lie long enough and loud enough, you'll convince yourself its true.collegeboy64

You're done debating because you have no other arguments to support your case.

The fact of the matter is the RIAA and the MPAA are still behind the times.

The internet will not be satisfied until every movie, TV show, and song is available on every platform in HD / lossless quality for a reasonable monthly cost.

And that will only happen when the RIAA and MPAA stop their feeble attempts to curb piracy, and instead focus on how they can lure customers away from piracy.

Netflix, Hulu, and Crunchyroll are good starts.

But it needs to be much more comprehensive than it already is.

Here's the difference.

When you steal, someone loses their single copy, which is bad and sucks.

When you pirate the creators lose money and you create infinite copies for anyone to play.

Here's the difference.

When you steal, someone loses their single copy, which is bad and sucks.

When you pirate the creators lose money and you create infinite copies for anyone to play.

SPYDER0416

Bolded has yet to be proven.

They lost a sale from you because you either pirated or stole a physical copy. JustPlainLucas

The internet will not be satisfied until every movie, TV show, and song is available on every platform in HD / lossless quality for a reasonable monthly cost.peterw007

You can rationalize it any way you want to. With piracy you are still getting something without paying for it.

If you want to steal something, then steal something. But dont try to convince me that you arent stealing.

You can rationalize it any way you want to. With piracy you are still getting something without paying for it.

airshocker

You can rationalize it any way you want to. With piracy you are still getting something without paying for it.

airshocker

That's the fault of the owners.

If they made their IP widely available in HD / Lossless quality with advertisements, there would be no need for piracy.

-

It's strictly because of the arrogance of the owners that piracy thrives.

Great. If i wanted to i could walk down my street picking up small rocks instead of buying buckets of gravel. Oh no, I'm a horrible person for not buying gravel, I've cost those people potential sales, and I'm therefor a thief :roll: Thing is, piracy doesn't happen because people want **** for free. This is proven by the drop in piracy when steam made itself available to the eastern European market.Nibroc420

Come up with a better analogy next time. :lol:

To say piracy doesn't happen because people want sh*t for free is utterly false. There are many reasons people pirate, and last I checked I didn't even go into the motive for piracy. So I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

That's the fault of the owners.

If they made their IP widely available in HD / Lossless quality with advertisements, there would be no need for piracy.

-

It's strictly because of the arrogance of the owners that piracy thrives.

peterw007

That doesn't make it acceptable to pirate.

[QUOTE="SaintWalrus"]

Buying a license =/= buying the actual physical game.

JustPlainLucas

*looks around*

Wow, a lot of self-righteous tools in this thread.

[QUOTE="peterw007"]

That's the fault of the owners.

If they made their IP widely available in HD / Lossless quality with advertisements, there would be no need for piracy.

-

It's strictly because of the arrogance of the owners that piracy thrives.

airshocker

That doesn't make it acceptable to pirate.

Ehh, yes and no.

If you're trying to watch a show on Hulu and you can't because you live in Canada, that's just unfair.

In those cases I think piracy is more justified.

-

I'm not saying piracy is ever a good thing...because it isn't.

But I won't call people who can't afford a show (or live in a place where they can't get the show) "criminals"...because many times it just isn't their fault.

DVDs and Blu-rays can be immensely expensive, especially for those who don't live in a first-world country and their wages are 1/10th of what American wages are.

Come up with a better analogy next time. :lol:airshocker

It was a sound analogy.
You're crying because someone potentially lost a sale when piracy occurs.
But they didn't, a company will print X copies of a game, and piracy doesn't remove a hard copy intended for sale. Nor does it prevent future sales.

If walking down the road, i find a CD, should i leave it there? I didn't pay for it, technically it doesn't belong to me, but at the same time, no-ones there claiming it. If i didn't take the CD, i might go to the store and buy it, i might not. Does me picking up that CD and putting it into my stereo, (only to realise that i dont even like the band) count as a "potentially lost sale"? Certainly seems like it, as i maybe, might have bought it if i didnt pick it up.
If only i didn't pick up the CD, only to learn the band sucked. Maybe then i could've wasted my money to realise they suck and that the CD wasn't worth my money.

Ehh, yes and no.

If you're trying to watch a show on Hulu and you can't because you live in Canada, that's just unfair.

In those cases I think piracy is more justified.

-

I'm not saying piracy is ever a good thing...because it isn't.

But I won't call people who can't afford a show (or live in a place where they can't get the show) "criminals"...because many times it just isn't their fault.

DVDs and Blu-rays can be immensely expensive, especially for those who don't live in a first-world country and their wages are 1/10th of what American wages are.

peterw007

Sorry, there's no two ways about it. Piracy is never justified.