WWII Vet Writes to Obama. I think You all oughta read this.

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"][QUOTE="theone86"]

If you want to talk about teh common ideals that make us part of teh same nation, then why aren't you talking about the ideals which the Constitution provides that all men are to be treated equally regardless of creed? They did not intend for this to be a Christian nation, they intended for it to be a secular one.

PannicAtack

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

Yeah, that's a common misconception people make. In the case of the United States from the international point of view, national (in the way I said earlier) governments are seen as subsidiaries of the state government. Sure, checks and balances exist between the two groups but the state government has the final say in international affairs (as well as military, domestic or otherwise) and makes the United States, by definition, a nation-state.

Either that or I wasted a lot of money on those Political Science textbooks. :?

fidosim

Heh, you're telling me. $100 for an International Affairs book is highway robbery.

In any case, judging whether a player is a nation or a state by degree of cultural unity is a recipie for disaster. Using this, Texas is a nation due to intense cultural unity and New York is a state because of it's affinity for placing politics over cultural elements. In the end, it gives me a headache....

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"]kudos to the old man calling obama out on being the worthless anti american scum that he is.kayoticdreamz

I just love how our political arguments rely so heavily on substantiated claims nowadays and not sensationalistic ad homenim attacks.

Oooh, so now we get sensationalistic conjecture to back up the ad homenim attacks, love the spirit of this discussion.

[QUOTE="wstfld"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] because liberals are soo much smarter than us common folkkayoticdreamz

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] needs to reread the declaration of independence.kayoticdreamz

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] needs to reread the declaration of independence.kayoticdreamz

Maybe you should read the Constitution and see what that document says about just how secular our nation is.

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"]

[QUOTE="topgunmv"]

"Under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance in the 50's, and even then it was just to differentiate ourselves from the soviets. If the soviets forced christianity on everyone I'd be willing to bet we would have had a pro atheist craze.

Again, most of them were deists, that is they believed god created the universe but does not interfere anymore.

They created the nation with the notion that men of all creeds be treated equally. Back then norms were different, everyone was basically a Christian, in today's world norms have changed and saying a prayer based on one religion when people from many other religions participate is not in line with our current understanding of freedom of religion.

Also Madison did NOT come up with the idea of checks and balances, that system was devised by a French nobleman named Montesquieu.

[QUOTE="gameguy6700"]

[QUOTE="bbkkristian"]

:o Wrong!!!

"ONE NATION UNDER GOD!!!!"

George Washington DID believe in God!! He might've not have attended church, but that doesn't say he believes in God!!! :evil:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_George_Washington_a_Christian

Benjamin Franklin did also.

James Madison was an Episcopalian which is related to the church.

They might've not been Christian (but their religions were really close to it.), but they did believe in God.

kayoticdreamz

You do realize that by sponsoring a particular religion (which is what housing the ten commandments on state property or holding mandatory school prayer is doing) the government is inherently favoring it over other religions. Schools can still let kids pray in school, that's not banned contrary to what Christians like to claim. Rather, it's just school-sponsored prayer is banned. Imagine if you, a Christian, attended a public school that had all the students pray to Mecca every Friday. How would you feel about that?

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"][QUOTE="wstfld"] That guy's letter makes no sense. He thinks the President hates America. That is the craziest conclusion ever. wstfld

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Or prohibiting the free exercice thereof

Or abridging the freedom of speech

Or of the press

Or of the right of the people peacefully to assemble

And to petition the government for a re-dress of grievances

What is all this talk about a christian country?

IWKYB

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

[QUOTE="_BlueDuck_"]

My Political Science textbooks don't agree with your Political Science textbooks :P

_BlueDuck_

Oh lord, don't tell me even the most basic terms vary from textbook to textbook. D:

I've seen more complex issues get their own spin in different books, but I should look for a different field if it gets this messy. :(

The only thing I can think of off hand as a subsidary government (say, a provincial goverment within a federation) being a nation within a state would be Quebec, which is (or atleast the Quebecois will tell you) its own distinct nation. So if it acheived sovereignty it would more than likely become a nation-state, but I would not see Canada being a nation-state, or any other of the provinces being nations, with the exception of maybe some of the nothern territories.

A lot of the terms are a bit tricky to get a handle on... Could be worse. Try telling people here that liberalism stands for individualism, freedom and limited goverment, whereas conservatism stands for order, a strong state and a degree of collectivism :P

Oh, so I guess political terminology has some differences in Canada (as opposed to the United States, where I am)? I guess that would make sense, since Texas would be a good comparison due to the intense national unity. I need to brush up on this stuff a little more to get a better understanding of the finer points.

And yeah, it's strange how people switch around definitions...I guess that's why we have terms like neo-conservatism and neo-liberalism so we don't go insane. :P

Don't need to, you're arguing that what defines the nation are the common ideals, and one of the most common is the equality of all religions, not the dominance of one.

theone86

[QUOTE="wstfld"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] obama sat in a church for 20 freakin years that said God Damn AMerica i mean really how can you still not hate america after sitting that room for 20 years....never mind the other valid points he pointed outkayoticdreamz

[QUOTE="wstfld"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] obama sat in a church for 20 freakin years that said God Damn AMerica i mean really how can you still not hate america after sitting that room for 20 years....never mind the other valid points he pointed outkayoticdreamz

[QUOTE="wstfld"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] obama sat in a church for 20 freakin years that said God Damn AMerica i mean really how can you still not hate america after sitting that room for 20 years....never mind the other valid points he pointed outkayoticdreamz

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]But one need not be a member of any Christian denomination to be included in this nation. I'm not Christian, I've never been a Christian, and much of my family here in the U.S. isn't Christian, and yet if you were to inquire about the nationality of these non-Christian family members of mine and my own nationality, you'd discover that we are all Americans. gameguy6700

I wasn't aware that the Native Americans were Christians.

They weren't, so we showed them.:(

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"]

[QUOTE="gameguy6700"] First off, "One nation under God" was only put in the pledge of allegiance back in the 1950s when McCarthyism was in full swing. While some (keyword there is "some") of the founding fathers were Christian, that hardly means that the USA was "built on Christian ideals". The founding fathers were vehemently against state-sponsored religion. They weren't against religion but did have a problem with the state treating one religion better than another (indeed, this was the entire point of the pilgrams coming over to America; they were fleeing religious oppression in Britain). It's also worth noting that Franklin was a deist, not a Christian. As was Thomas Jefferson and he went as far as to rewrite the bible by omitting the entire old testament and any mentions of Jesus performing miracles. And while he said he liked Christianity's morals, he was also the same guy who coined the term "separation of church and state".

You do realize that by sponsoring a particular religion (which is what housing the ten commandments on state property or holding mandatory school prayer is doing) the government is inherently favoring it over other religions. Schools can still let kids pray in school, that's not banned contrary to what Christians like to claim. Rather, it's just school-sponsored prayer is banned. Imagine if you, a Christian, attended a public school that had all the students pray to Mecca every Friday. How would you feel about that?

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] well then go read that part about the delcration of indepence being endowed by our creator. and lets not forget congress opening with a prayer that little habit our founders started. and Madison i beleive it was came up with the idea of checks and balances based on a scripture. that says The Lord is my law my judge and my king. law=congress king=president judge=judicial brance. sorry in God we trust i dont know when that got added the pledge but we are by and large founded on Christianity. but then again what would our God beleiving founders know they just wrote the documents lol.

kayoticdreamz

Again, most of them were deists, that is they believed god created the universe but does not interfere anymore.

They created the nation with the notion that men of all creeds be treated equally. Back then norms were different, everyone was basically a Christian, in today's world norms have changed and saying a prayer based on one religion when people from many other religions participate is not in line with our current understanding of freedom of religion.

Also Madison did NOT come up with the idea of checks and balances, that system was devised by a French nobleman named Montesquieu.

ROFL, what Madison wrote about the checks and balances is almost directly lifted from Montesquieu's writings, and let's not forget the most important part here which is that Montesquieu wrote it first. The same way that when Jefferson wrote the Declaration he was borrowin ideas from John Locke and THomas Hobbes, Madison was borrowing ideas from Montesquieu. I'm not trying to take credit away from anyone, simply to give credit where credit is due, and I believe both Madison and Jefferson would have no objection to that.

Angry old man with an an opinion I don't agree with

Nothing out of the ordinary. And what's brave, anyone can send that haha. If he said it to his face, now that'd be ballsy

Heh, you're telling me. $100 for an International Affairs book is highway robbery.

In any case, judging whether a player is a nation or a state by degree of cultural unity is a recipie for disaster. Using this, Texas is a nation due to intense cultural unity and New York is a state because of it's affinity for placing politics over cultural elements. In the end, it gives me a headache....

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Don't need to, you're arguing that what defines the nation are the common ideals, and one of the most common is the equality of all religions, not the dominance of one.

fidosim

What about the other religions that are gaining prominence? There are many Muslims and Hindus in this country, they don't count towards America's culture? And there was a recent study that said a record number of young people are becoming atheists or at least non-practicing Christians, they don't count towards America's culture either?

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

Heh, you're telling me. $100 for an International Affairs book is highway robbery.

In any case, judging whether a player is a nation or a state by degree of cultural unity is a recipie for disaster. Using this, Texas is a nation due to intense cultural unity and New York is a state because of it's affinity for placing politics over cultural elements. In the end, it gives me a headache....

fidosim

Then Texas is...a nation-state? Then what's the United States?

My brain hurts...

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"]

The Declaration of Independence, which was written by a Deist, and has absolutely no bearing on American law.PannicAtack

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

Heh, you're telling me. $100 for an International Affairs book is highway robbery.

In any case, judging whether a player is a nation or a state by degree of cultural unity is a recipie for disaster. Using this, Texas is a nation due to intense cultural unity and New York is a state because of it's affinity for placing politics over cultural elements. In the end, it gives me a headache....

THE_DRUGGIE

Then Texas is...a nation-state? Then what's the United States?

My brain hurts...

Perhaps I can sum his argument up for you, "I'm right."

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

Heh, you're telling me. $100 for an International Affairs book is highway robbery.

In any case, judging whether a player is a nation or a state by degree of cultural unity is a recipie for disaster. Using this, Texas is a nation due to intense cultural unity and New York is a state because of it's affinity for placing politics over cultural elements. In the end, it gives me a headache....

fidosim

I wouldn't call Texas a state because it does not have sovereignty. Unless you mean state in the American state kind of way. In which case, carry on.

hmm high taxes check.kayoticdreamz

hmm high taxes check.kayoticdreamz

How much money do you make, out of curiosity?

oppresive government that ignores it citizens checkkayoticdreamz

Quantify "oppressive" and "ignores its citizens".

growing government check.kayoticdreamz

Specify in what ways government has grown at an abnormal rate.

passing laws at inconquent weird times such as 6 AM checkkayoticdreamz

The health care reform law took a year to pass.

gee need i go on? ignoring the citizens checkkayoticdreamz

I'm pretty sure you said that one already.

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] actually it rather sums up the current problems we face today almost perfectly. in fact it could be reposted today and be completely relevant. and for a supposed secular nation we certainly are full of references to God and prayer.

kayoticdreamz

Actually, the taxes on the richest segment of American society are lower than they've ever been.

Just because you don't agree with the majority doesn't mean the government is ignoring their citizens.

THe British government was quarterin their troops within citizens' homes, demanding taxes to pay for a colonial military and then not addressing the colonists wishes for the military to provide more services, and even killing citizens to stop dissent. Nothing Obama is doing is even remotely comprable.

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] Texas might be a pretty good example of nationhood vs statehood, though. Texas' cultural unity doesn't make it a nation. Texas is still a state, because the state itself is a government and its institutions. Texas is a state with a nation, however. theone86

Then Texas is...a nation-state? Then what's the United States?

My brain hurts...

Perhaps I can sum his argument up for you, "I'm right."

I bet I could come up with an argument against that if it wasn't 1am. :P

No, Obama does *not* sound like King George.

The British were shutting off our trade, quartering soldiers in our homes (I bet if someone complained about that nowadays they'd be called "unpatriotic"), they deprived us of trial by jury in many cases, and they sicced mercenaries on us. How does anything that Obama did come anywhere near that?

Did you *read*any of what you copypasted?

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] people take seperation of church and state out of context. they simply mean NO STATE RELIGION not a total abandonment of religion in government. for instance the more recent oh no take down the ten commandments off the supreme court or people not being allowed to pray in school. but more rather everyone has to be a memeber of Church A or you get shot. not oh no the president mentioned God OFF WITH HIS HEAD. in fact our founders very much realized God played some roll in the countries birth and mostly beleive in some sort of God. and the country is very much rooted in morals which tend to come from religion. sorry but they never said take God out of government merely Take a specific church out of government. basically it would be unwise to say elect the pope but not unwise to have a president that prayers or congress opening with prayer.

You do realize that by sponsoring a particular religion (which is what housing the ten commandments on state property or holding mandatory school prayer is doing) the government is inherently favoring it over other religions. Schools can still let kids pray in school, that's not banned contrary to what Christians like to claim. Rather, it's just school-sponsored prayer is banned. Imagine if you, a Christian, attended a public school that had all the students pray to Mecca every Friday. How would you feel about that?

Well that was unnecessary. A link would have sufficed.

Then Texas is...a nation-state? Then what's the United States?

My brain hurts...

...Give that man a klondike bar

He makes some extremely valid points and says things that I agree with 100%, if youn expected mt to add a 'but' here then perepare to be disappoint.

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"][QUOTE="gameguy6700"]

You do realize that by sponsoring a particular religion (which is what housing the ten commandments on state property or holding mandatory school prayer is doing) the government is inherently favoring it over other religions. Schools can still let kids pray in school, that's not banned contrary to what Christians like to claim. Rather, it's just school-sponsored prayer is banned. Imagine if you, a Christian, attended a public school that had all the students pray to Mecca every Friday. How would you feel about that?

gameguy6700

...Give that man a klondike bar

He makes some extremely valid points and says things that I agree with 100%, if youn expected mt to add a 'but' here then perepare to be disappoint.

buldog300

[QUOTE="gameguy6700"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] except CHristians praying in school get yelled at but another religion its accepted a horrible doublt standard. perhaps if i as a Christian was allowed to pray in school without some fear of getting yelled at by everyone then maybe id be willing to accept the mecca prayer. and the 10 commandments yes it is CHristian but jews also beleive in moses but not Christ. its hardly a universal only one religion has it and never mind the fact it is a symbol to very basic rules of law we should all abide by i mean really dont kill dont steal dont commit adultrey honestly the message here is very much within the rules of law that we have.guynamedbilly

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

Then Texas is...a nation-state? Then what's the United States?

My brain hurts...

fidosim

Hmm, that makes a little more sense now...Well, not completely for me but my mind's running on just enough sugar to keep me conscious so I might understand it better after I get some sleep.

Hmm, that makes a little more sense now...Well, not completely for me but my mind's running on just enough sugar to keep me conscious so I might understand it better after I get some sleep.

THE_DRUGGIE

[QUOTE="buldog300"]

...Give that man a klondike bar

He makes some extremely valid points and says things that I agree with 100%, if youn expected mt to add a 'but' here then perepare to be disappoint.

gameguy6700

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

Then Texas is...a nation-state? Then what's the United States?

My brain hurts...

THE_DRUGGIE

Hmm, that makes a little more sense now...Well, not completely for me but my mind's running on just enough sugar to keep me conscious so I might understand it better after I get some sleep.

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] Yeah, you could classify it as a nation-state. And the United States could also be a state or nation-state. They can be states independently of one another. You could think of it like one of those Russian dolls, where you can open one, and find another, smaller one within it, and so on. If you take the United States government's hierarchy, leaving aside any talk of nationhood, and opened it up, the biggest doll would be the United States federal government. The doll inside that one would be any given state government. The dolls inside that one would be that state's regional, county, and city governments, going all the way down to a local school board or city council or what have you. gameguy6700

Hmm, that makes a little more sense now...Well, not completely for me but my mind's running on just enough sugar to keep me conscious so I might understand it better after I get some sleep.

Too much thinking...Can't...Thought...Brain...

man i'm a lurker but this is getting crazy i didn't read the letter as it is 2:00 in the morning here and i'm about to head to bed but from what i gathered from your comments is that this guy just made an email which regards complaints towards the president. I just think to myself, WHO CARES, there are thousands of rants like theses on youtube pages and I applaud this guy for fighting in the war I guarantee you guys this letter will not be read by obama, heck no one in his cabinet will read this heck less than 1% of the USA will read this because there are like i said thousands like it. I'm not into politics but ever since i was born there have been people disliking what presidents do how is this any different