Are games purely entertainment, or are they becoming propaganda entertainment?

[QUOTE="reghole"][QUOTE="dnuggs40"][QUOTE="reghole"]

All video games are pure entertainment. No propaganda whatsoever. Period.

Now excuse me, while I go play America's Army...

Black & white; Blaaa..

Subtleties, personal objectives, and shifting perspectives rule the day

dnuggs40

That game was developed by the US Military for the intended purpose of RECRUITING people into the military. Are you really going to generalize the entire game industry (which is not goverment related and are private businesses) and make such an judgement based from one solitary game? Really? Seriously?

:lol:

Yes...the game industry ispushing propaganda in order to brain wash the youth and make us hate each other. Now wheres my tin foil hat and glass of kool-aid?

America's Army was used as a GLARING example the games can be used to promote an agenda or idea. True, capitalism is the maindriving force behind the gaming industry, but this does not mean it is the sole exclusive force...

"True, capitalism is the maindriving force behind the gaming industry, but this does not mean it is the sole exclusive force..."

And what other force is there? Secret goverment programs to get EA games to publish evil propaganda? CIA training developers to infiltrate game studios and launch black operations to include propaganda? lol...get real. At least you got the first part right, which is MONEY drives the game industry.

Just becuase the US Army found an effective tool in recruitment, does not mean ANY game company is following suit. Game companies have no STAKE in propaganda. It's not profitable, and thats the bottom line. The only reason America's Army is propaganda, is becuase the Military (creator of the game) is not concerned with money, their investment was RECRUITMENT.

To the elites of this world Money means nothing to them. Money is nothing but a tool to keep me and you enslaved. So when you say that Money is the driving force behind the IndustryI say that is what they want you to believe. For the Developers yes Money is the reason, they push out products that is going to sell. Thats why they stay in the box, but that box is nothing but propaganda and witchcraft. These companies like a EA are part of a bigger picture to enslave you and your mind.

pro·pa·gan·da:
Function: noun
2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also: a public action having such an effect

Propaganda is not exclusive to a government or institution. It is a tool to further any idea. Granted the original poster, specified political, I read it broader... ALL media is used propagate memes on one level or another...

Now let me get my tin foil hat"

Your deffinition is fine, but your application is incorrect. You would have to make the case that the developers of Crysis or Call of Duty is DELIBERTLY invested in spreading ideas and information through their games in order to push an ideology. Since this is not the case, they are not spreading propaganda.

And yes, get your hat, and don't forget the kool-aid either...

Some people are trying really hard to find the few exceptions to the rule... I doubt many people on the gamespot forums play communist propoganda games. I think the questioner was talking about commercial games sold by publishers (not the two or three games made by military projects of some sort). In which case by a reasonable definition of propoganda most games contain none whatsoever. I hate to bring this up again but MONEY is the sole motivator for gaming companies. Realize that gaming companies like EA sell games worldwide. Propoganda would just hurt their sales / marketshare.bob9999999999

Well said!

"To the elites of this world Money means nothing to them. Money is nothing but a tool to keep me and you enslaved. So when you say that Money is the driving force behind the IndustryI say that is what they want you to believe. For the Developers yes Money is the reason, they push out products that is going to sell. Thats why they stay in the box, but that box is nothing but propaganda and witchcraft. These companies like a EA are part of a bigger picture to enslave you and your mind."

:lol:

"I think we may differ on the definition of propaganda. Propaganda as defined byMerriem-Webster:

pro·pa·gan·da:
Function: noun
2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also: a public action having such an effect

Propaganda is not exclusive to a government or institution. It is a tool to further any idea. Granted the original poster, specified political, I read it broader... ALL media is used propagate memes on one level or another...

Now let me get my tin foil hat"

Your deffinition is fine, but your application is incorrect. You would have to make the case that the developers of Crysis or Call of Duty is DELIBERTLY invested in spreading ideas and information through their games in order to push an ideology. Since this is not the case, they are not spreading propaganda.

And yes, get your hat, and don't forget the kool-aid either...

dnuggs40

Lol! You are right the developers are not DELIBERTLY spreading ideas they are just a tool to get to you. They are fooled also they know not what they do they are in it for the money. I see a theme since ive been gaming who the emeny is. Excluding aliens, it has been Germans, Russians, China, Middle Eastern, and now N.Korea andLatain America. Never have you seen America, Britian,Canada, Aussie, and France being the emeny. Why? Because its these countries making the games so they are not going to make themselves out to be the emeny. You only know there story when you play a game.

Good lord man...

Now the companies themselves are the "tools" of the elite "mind controlling" goverments? According to your earlier post, EA games was in on it...

Seriously dude, you need a cold shower and maybe a nice long walk outside in the sun.

Good lord man...

Now the companies themselves are the "tools" of the elite "mind controlling" goverments? According to your earlier post, EA games was in on it...

Seriously dude, you need a cold shower and maybe a nice long walk outside in the sun.

dnuggs40

Hey the truth is the truth if you believe it or not. The fact is progaganda goes on in all most all games. And you say its about MONEY lol! Progaganda isnt about money dude never was never will be. Go read some books and educate yourself on the real world and not Mario Brothers =0

Wow...just wow. Hopefully one day you will wake up from your delusions, till then, I will just pity you...

"I think we may differ on the definition of propaganda. Propaganda as defined byMerriem-Webster:

pro·pa·gan·da:
Function: noun
2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also: a public action having such an effect

Propaganda is not exclusive to a government or institution. It is a tool to further any idea. Granted the original poster, specified political, I read it broader... ALL media is used propagate memes on one level or another...

Now let me get my tin foil hat"

Your deffinition is fine, but your application is incorrect. You would have to make the case that the developers of Crysis or Call of Duty is DELIBERTLY invested in spreading ideas and information through their games in order to push an ideology. Since this is not the case, they are not spreading propaganda.

And yes, get your hat, and don't forget the kool-aid either...

I made no referenceto Crysis or COD in my posts. The point of my posts was to debase the yes/no logic in this thread. There is no mutual exclusive clause in games that states the entertainment factor is the only reasonfor programming a game. I do not even believe it is possible to remove personal ideology from the creative act and I would argue the most culturally valuable art/media/entertainment is that which does exist to promote an idea...

ButI think I am takingthis downa side road the original poster did not intend.

dnuggs40, you are my best friend today. Oh yea, mmmm... Kool-aid.

dnuggs40

It's clearly a proganganda machine, as evidenced by the massive amount of work the government does to promote gaming, and the fact that, if you record the game, you'll see subliminal messages pop up ever 51 frames or so. This place, let's call it "Area 51" is where america's leader's try to indocrinate you to kill their enemies. I mean,anybody who depicts a dictatorship like North Korea as being "bad" clearly has been brainwashed.

...can I buy some pot from you?

dnuggs40, you are my best friend today. Oh yea, mmmm... Kool-aid."

Oh ok, gotcha. I see where you are comming from now. We were discussing the topic in two different contexts. And from this perspective, your views make sense in a way. Though I would tell you not to confuse personal ideology with propaganda. These are two entirely different issues.

Any-who...I am glad we are best friends now! I will will join you with a cup of Kool-Aid! Yummm!!!!

Wow...just wow. Hopefully one day you will wake up from your delusions, till then, I will just pity you...

dnuggs40

That isnt gonna hurt him at all, being pittied by a nerd who talks on the internet and complains, is just a grain of salt. Sorry, but you nor I know the real reason behind something. Till there is cold hard facts towards this, then nothing can be said. Do I believe there is propaganda? In some cases? maybe, maybe not. Will I stop playing cause there is propaganda? no.

Does it really matter anyway? Propaganda is only strong if you believe in what the message has to say anyway.

It's clearly a proganganda machine, as evidenced by the massive amount of work the government does to promote gaming, and the fact that, if you record the game, you'll see subliminal messages pop up ever 51 frames or so. This place, let's call it "Area 51" is where america's leader's try to indocrinate you to kill their enemies. I mean,anybody who depicts a dictatorship like North Korea as being "bad" clearly has been brainwashed.

...can I buy some pot from you?

LOL :)

Cobra_nVidia

Go back to sleep. MSG and aspartame are yummy and good for your brain.

[QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

Wow...just wow. Hopefully one day you will wake up from your delusions, till then, I will just pity you...

sepheronX

That isnt gonna hurt him at all, being pittied by a nerd who talks on the internet and complains, is just a grain of salt. Sorry, but you nor I know the real reason behind something. Till there is cold hard facts towards this, then nothing can be said. Do I believe there is propaganda? In some cases? maybe, maybe not. Will I stop playing cause there is propaganda? no.

Does it really matter anyway? Propaganda is only strong if you believe in what the message has to say anyway.

[/QUOTE}

100% Agreed

It wont stop me from playing games but I do know whats going on. And does it matter to me yes because I want everyone to know whats going on thats the only way we can change things in the world if people were to wake up and open there eyes.

Any-who...I am glad we are best friends now! I will will join you with a cup of Kool-Aid! Yummm!!!!

let us raise our Kool-aid filled plastic Tupperware cups in toast.

[QUOTE="sepheronX"][QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

Wow...just wow. Hopefully one day you will wake up from your delusions, till then, I will just pity you...

J-REAL

That isnt gonna hurt him at all, being pittied by a nerd who talks on the internet and complains, is just a grain of salt. Sorry, but you nor I know the real reason behind something. Till there is cold hard facts towards this, then nothing can be said. Do I believe there is propaganda? In some cases? maybe, maybe not. Will I stop playing cause there is propaganda? no.

Does it really matter anyway? Propaganda is only strong if you believe in what the message has to say anyway.

[/QUOTE}

100% Agreed

It wont stop me from playing games but I do know whats going on. And does it matter to me yes because I want everyone to know whats going on thats the only way we can change things in the world if people were to wake up and open there eyes.

Yea, but a voice is a voice. If 1 person raises their voice, no one will listen, if hundreds of thousands, then we are talking about something different. Gamespot forums is full of people, either along on either of 3 sides. Against propaganda, for it, or does not care, so you are just 1 voice out of billions in this world.

But all countrys have their games, and their propaganda. 1 more country is not gonna change anything, just the ignorance of people. But that is alright, most people in this world are ignorant anyway.

I have to agree with what some have said, that MONEY is the biggest factor for the gaming industry. The most money can be found in the US or Europe for video game sales, therefore automatically the publishers will include cultural opinions into their games to match these countries so that their sales can be positive. If anyone made a game purely from the perspective of a Nazi it would not sell (i think they tried making one in Germany and it was banned) or how bout being a Viet-Cong fighting in the jungle against the American Army, that'll never and has never existed, unless it's only sold in Vietnam. The fact is all games and all movies (no difference in my book, they all cater to MONEY) add a bit of cultural ignorance in order to achieve the ability to appeal to the masses.

Trust me it hasn't changed me at all, i've played Call of Duty, I've played Mafia, i don't hate Germans or Italians, but I think the underlying message doesn't help, especially when you are spreading an ignorant message across the entire globe. Which is why that Iran and Lebanon created their video games as a way to compete in this cultural warfare that video games / movies and the likes have already done.

Interesting to see people's reaction to this.

[QUOTE="J-REAL"][QUOTE="sepheronX"][QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

Wow...just wow. Hopefully one day you will wake up from your delusions, till then, I will just pity you...

sepheronX

That isnt gonna hurt him at all, being pittied by a nerd who talks on the internet and complains, is just a grain of salt. Sorry, but you nor I know the real reason behind something. Till there is cold hard facts towards this, then nothing can be said. Do I believe there is propaganda? In some cases? maybe, maybe not. Will I stop playing cause there is propaganda? no.

Does it really matter anyway? Propaganda is only strong if you believe in what the message has to say anyway.

[/QUOTE}

100% Agreed

It wont stop me from playing games but I do know whats going on. And does it matter to me yes because I want everyone to know whats going on thats the only way we can change things in the world if people were to wake up and open there eyes.

Yea, but a voice is a voice. If 1 person raises their voice, no one will listen, if hundreds of thousands, then we are talking about something different. Gamespot forums is full of people, either along on either of 3 sides. Against propaganda, for it, or does not care, so you are just 1 voice out of billions in this world.

But all countrys have their games, and their propaganda. 1 more country is not gonna change anything, just the ignorance of people. But that is alright, most people in this world are ignorant anyway.

:lol:

What in gods name are you two rambling about?

[QUOTE="sepheronX"][QUOTE="J-REAL"][QUOTE="sepheronX"][QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

Wow...just wow. Hopefully one day you will wake up from your delusions, till then, I will just pity you...

dnuggs40

That isnt gonna hurt him at all, being pittied by a nerd who talks on the internet and complains, is just a grain of salt. Sorry, but you nor I know the real reason behind something. Till there is cold hard facts towards this, then nothing can be said. Do I believe there is propaganda? In some cases? maybe, maybe not. Will I stop playing cause there is propaganda? no.

Does it really matter anyway? Propaganda is only strong if you believe in what the message has to say anyway.

[/QUOTE}

100% Agreed

It wont stop me from playing games but I do know whats going on. And does it matter to me yes because I want everyone to know whats going on thats the only way we can change things in the world if people were to wake up and open there eyes.

Yea, but a voice is a voice. If 1 person raises their voice, no one will listen, if hundreds of thousands, then we are talking about something different. Gamespot forums is full of people, either along on either of 3 sides. Against propaganda, for it, or does not care, so you are just 1 voice out of billions in this world.

But all countrys have their games, and their propaganda. 1 more country is not gonna change anything, just the ignorance of people. But that is alright, most people in this world are ignorant anyway.

:lol:

What in gods name are you two rambling about?

I am not quite sure anymore.

[QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

[QUOTE="sepheronX"][QUOTE="J-REAL"][QUOTE="sepheronX"][QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

Wow...just wow. Hopefully one day you will wake up from your delusions, till then, I will just pity you...

sepheronX

That isnt gonna hurt him at all, being pittied by a nerd who talks on the internet and complains, is just a grain of salt. Sorry, but you nor I know the real reason behind something. Till there is cold hard facts towards this, then nothing can be said. Do I believe there is propaganda? In some cases? maybe, maybe not. Will I stop playing cause there is propaganda? no.

Does it really matter anyway? Propaganda is only strong if you believe in what the message has to say anyway.

[/QUOTE}

100% Agreed

It wont stop me from playing games but I do know whats going on. And does it matter to me yes because I want everyone to know whats going on thats the only way we can change things in the world if people were to wake up and open there eyes.

Yea, but a voice is a voice. If 1 person raises their voice, no one will listen, if hundreds of thousands, then we are talking about something different. Gamespot forums is full of people, either along on either of 3 sides. Against propaganda, for it, or does not care, so you are just 1 voice out of billions in this world.

But all countrys have their games, and their propaganda. 1 more country is not gonna change anything, just the ignorance of people. But that is alright, most people in this world are ignorant anyway.

:lol:

What in gods name are you two rambling about?

I am not quite sure anymore.

LOL!

Frame 51 contains subliminal messages???

WHat about if you have a crappy old computer like mine that can't pump out 51 frames per second?

I think the 51st frame sounds like a load of BS, take a snap shot of your 51st frame and post it, until then, you dug way too deep that for shtuff.

[QUOTE="sepheronX"]

North Korea is nothing but propaganda. I think Kim Jong Il spent millions if not more on creating propaganda material for children, saying he is god or whatever. But dont quote me, I heard this in school.

J-REAL

Lol! Thats the whole point you heard it somewhere in school, tv, newspaper. To be honest No one knows until you go there yourself and talk to the people. We are spoon fed everything! Its just like when the US evaded Iraq, they had a guy on all the US networks claiming to have been working on Iraq WMD program. Everybody listen to this guy comes to find out that he never did work on any such program but the US paid him to say these things to fool the people. And what do you know no WMDs in Iraq. 95% of the world has been brainwash and you tell people this and they think its funny!

Actually it wouldn't be suprising that Kim Jong does that. He's a communist for god sakes. His people starve while he creates nuclear weapons.

ROFL!

Seriously...if you look to video games to learn history you are a fool. Video games have one purpose...to entertain. Granted, there is software designed to teach you things that presents itself in a game-like manner (mabis teaches typing, ect) but anybody who is looking to Call of Duty to teach them about WWII or humanity is rediculous.dnuggs40

I read the book 18 Hours and learned about the Operation Anaconda battle in the Shai Kot Valley. I watched 9th Company and learnt a little about the Russia Afghan war. Its quite common for people to learn things from books, films and games, you just have to take it with a pinch of salt sometimes.

Kim Jong Il is a modern day master of propoganda, citizens of North Korea worship him as a god every time anything positive happens to them.

Everyone seems to be focusing on Crysis here simply because you fight North Koreans, but unless I'm mistaken, don't you end up fighting alongside them once the aliens show up? I can't imagine that the Koreans would be villified too much if you're just going to turn around and fight alongside them. Nobody would want to work alongside a group that they hate.

Games, like any other medium, are a conduit for reflecting topical concerns and the perceptions of people in current times. During World War 2 the Germanswere perceived by many as 'the bad guys', so it was hardly surprising that books, movies and now games cast them in that light in media centred around World War 2. Fast forward to current times and the news is full of references to troubles in the Middle East (including Iraq and Afghanistan), and problems regarding North Korea.

Just as movies were made during World War II with people fighting the Nazis...now games are produced where we fight perceived modern enemies. In a way they could be viewed as mild propaganda, but only insofar as they point the finger at a particular nation or group of people and label them as 'bad guys'. If the people playing the games only have two brain cells to rub together and choose toignore the wider context of current conflicts and tensions around the globe, and simply accept what is portrayed in a game (or any other entertainment medium) as fact, then they are obviously incredibly misguided.

I view games as entertainment, but I can understand some of the concerns of certain games being perceived as a form of propaganda, even if they have not been deliberately produced as propaganda vehicles. I've seen some pretty ignorant posts made about games like Call Of Duty 4 where people think it's based on fact and they want to "...play the Marines to kick terrorist ass" etc. The nature of some of those posts indicate at least some of these people have difficultyseparating a game from reality, and are either unwilling or unable to view a game purely as entertainment. In a way, you could argue that some gamers themselves are trying to turn games into their own form of propaganda to fuel misguided notions (based on game content), thus exhibiting a rather insular and prejudiced view of the world and its affairs.

By the same token we've seen various ethnic groups, and nations such as North Korea decrying their depictions in video games, and holding them up as perceived propaganda vehicles of 'The West'. The simple fact is that anything can be twisted and spun so that it is cast in a negative light - just as violent video games have become the whipping boy of popular press and misguided politicians.If they were to be believed then games are the root of all evil in society today. That obviously is not the case, because people have been killing other people for time immemorial. It's the nature of the beast within us all.

So yes, games can be used in terms of propaganda from both sides, but usually only by people outside of the game development process to meet their own skewed view of the world.

[QUOTE="J-REAL"][QUOTE="sepheronX"]

North Korea is nothing but propaganda. I think Kim Jong Il spent millions if not more on creating propaganda material for children, saying he is god or whatever. But dont quote me, I heard this in school.

VfighterX

Lol! Thats the whole point you heard it somewhere in school, tv, newspaper. To be honest No one knows until you go there yourself and talk to the people. We are spoon fed everything! Its just like when the US evaded Iraq, they had a guy on all the US networks claiming to have been working on Iraq WMD program. Everybody listen to this guy comes to find out that he never did work on any such program but the US paid him to say these things to fool the people. And what do you know no WMDs in Iraq. 95% of the world has been brainwash and you tell people this and they think its funny!

Actually it wouldn't be suprising that Kim Jong does that. He's a communist for god sakes. His people starve while he creates nuclear weapons.

And where did you get your info from? None of us even knew Kim Jong even exsisted until his government was name apart of the Axis of Evil.

Kim Jong Il is a modern day master of propoganda, citizens of North Korea worship him as a god every time anything positive happens to them.

Everyone seems to be focusing on Crysis here simply because you fight North Koreans, but unless I'm mistaken, don't you end up fighting alongside them once the aliens show up? I can't imagine that the Koreans would be villified too much if you're just going to turn around and fight alongside them. Nobody would want to work alongside a group that they hate.

Mediocre_man90

The Question is if N Korea wouldnt have been part of the new Axis of Evil would Crytek have chosen that country for its setting? To me no they would not have maybe somewhere else like Iran are China.

Great point J-Real. Would it make sense if the majority didn't even know that North Korea existed in the sense that it exists now? The controllers of media end up controlling all that co-exist with media in order to appeal to the masses.

Basically put, all developers become pawns in the big picture of media politics that the US controls in this world. The developers still do have a choice though, make their own game to feel proud of what they make, or make a game to make big money.

Not long ago I wanted to make a MOD based on a story where you were an innocent iraqi civilian who was arrested and brought to a secret US prison in Eastern Europe near Yugoslavia. This character would fight his way out of this death camp and travel back to Iraq only to find his family slaughtered by the US Army. He then would join the likes of Al-Qaeda until later in the game he runs away from Al-Qaeda only to join/create his own group against both the Al-Qaeda and occupation forces.

Do you have any idea how many hate letters I received for thinking up this idea Too many. Some even said I was making a terrorist training game. The difference between my idea and call of duty or Max Payne is what? Just cause you kill something other than the aforementioned "axis of evil" countries, what is the true difference? And yet most people are telling me on this post that propaganda isn't at work in most of these FPS games that we play??

Great point J-Real. Would it make sense if the majority didn't even know that North Korea existed in the sense that it exists now? The controllers of media end up controlling all that co-exist with media in order to appeal to the masses.

Basically put, all developers become pawns in the big picture of media politics that the US controls in this world. The developers still do have a choice though, make their own game to feel proud of what they make, or make a game to make big money.

Not long ago I wanted to make a MOD based on a story where you were an innocent iraqi civilian who was arrested and brought to a secret US prison in Eastern Europe near Yugoslavia. This character would fight his way out of this death camp and travel back to Iraq only to find his family slaughtered by the US Army. He then would join the likes of Al-Qaeda until later in the game he runs away from Al-Qaeda only to join/create his own group against both the Al-Qaeda and occupation forces.

Do you have any idea how many hate letters I received for thinking up this idea Too many. Some even said I was making a terrorist training game. The difference between my idea and call of duty or Max Payne is what? Just cause you kill something other than the aforementioned "axis of evil" countries, what is the true difference? And yet most people are telling me on this post that propaganda isn't at work in most of these FPS games that we play??

serieus

And that was my hold point.

By the way that would be a great HL2 mode lol!

Time for a brain fart.

So, games like Call of Duty are propoganda, in which that they glorify certain aspects of the army, as killing terrorists. But what I have to ask is this: is it intentional propoganda? I mean, sure, you have America's Army which is built for such things to the core, but did CoD's developers say to themselves "let's make a game where the army are looked at with very pretty glasses" and make it a game? No, they went where two things are.

First, the trends. The money, where it is proven that when you shoot terrorists in some form, people will buy your game. It's a very taboo subject that will eventually move on once we get into aonther sort of confict. People want to pretend that they know and support what's happening in Iraq or whatever, when most of us don't have a clue; the games take advantage of that, and that's where the market is now (love it or hate it).

Second, the fact of the confict. The concept of a video game is appropriating conficts and letting the player get through them. Well, we have a very real confilct happening over seas right now, and so when the real life events match what a video game is in concept then why not make it based on that? It simply works, as we all know: WWII shooters are undeniably video games, and so are modern day shooters. Developers go for the easy targets, because, well, they're easy.

I know that when I fire up America's Army, I will be confronted with suggestions. Nothing stright out, but pointers that make me morally think that the Army is the right place to be. But when I fire up CoD or GRAW, those games don't have that much of that kind of thing, because it wasn't in the design documents. It simply doesn't affect the way I see life or the army or whatever, and none of it will make up my mind for me.

It'd be foolish to write it off completely, but in the end it's all fun and games, literally.

You can't say that Tetris or Mario bros was propaganda, but Call of Duty Modern WarFare, even Crysis (which will pit you against North Koreans as well as aliens) seem too much to be heading towards a propaganda tool to make us desensitized to killing our political enemies. Would it be OK, or would you buy the new games from Iran or from Lebanon that has you killing American and Isreali soldiers? What are your thoughts on that?

serieus

As a loyal American, I would never purchase a game that was primarily about killing Americans or our Allies. I would never purchase, for instance, a WWII sim that put you in the shoes of a German sniper shooting Allies.

Propaganda is everywhere in media.

Games are just another part of the media scape.

And where did you get your info from? None of us even knew Kim Jong even exsisted until his government was name apart of the Axis of Evil.

J-REAL

That's your fault for being poorly educated. I and many others have been aware of Il for a long, long time. 13 years ago I started reading the daily papers, and yes, even then, N. Korea was on our radar. Hell, didn't you study the Korean War in school?

Time for a brain fart.

So, games like Call of Duty are propoganda, in which that they glorify certain aspects of the army, as killing terrorists. But what I have to ask is this: is it intentional propoganda? I mean, sure, you have America's Army which is built for such things to the core, but did CoD's developers say to themselves "let's make a game where the army are looked at with very pretty glasses" and make it a game? No, they went where two things are.

First, the trends. The money, where it is proven that when you shoot terrorists in some form, people will buy your game. It's a very taboo subject that will eventually move on once we get into aonther sort of confict. People want to pretend that they know and support what's happening in Iraq or whatever, when most of us don't have a clue; the games take advantage of that, and that's where the market is now (love it or hate it).

Second, the fact of the confict. The concept of a video game is appropriating conficts and letting the player get through them. Well, we have a very real confilct happening over seas right now, and so when the real life events match what a video game is in concept then why not make it based on that? It simply works, as we all know: WWII shooters are undeniably video games, and so are modern day shooters. Developers go for the easy targets, because, well, they're easy.

I know that when I fire up America's Army, I will be confronted with suggestions. Nothing stright out, but pointers that make me morally think that the Army is the right place to be. But when I fire up CoD or GRAW, those games don't have that much of that kind of thing, because it wasn't in the design documents. It simply doesn't affect the way I see life or the army or whatever, and none of it will make up my mind for me.

It'd be foolish to write it off completely, but in the end it's all fun and games, literally.

gbarules2999

Your right it is all fun and games and that is good none of it will make up your mind. =)

Like I said in a past post the developers dont know what they do they are in it for the money but the people who are truely over this industry will not back certain games. Yes people will say because those games would not sell which is true, but its mainly becuase of the back lash a company will get becuase that company is going agaisnt the grain. The higher ups wants everyone to go with the grain its not about money for these people. These people print money so why it they be in it for the money. Like I said its way bigger than money for them.

[QUOTE="J-REAL"]

And where did you get your info from? None of us even knew Kim Jong even exsisted until his government was name apart of the Axis of Evil.

Jack_Summersby

That's your fault for being poorly educated. I and many others have been aware of Il for a long, long time. 13 years ago I started reading the daily papers, and yes, even then, N. Korea was on our radar. Hell, didn't you study the Korean War in school?

Its not that im prooly educated, and that wasnt the point. Most of the world didnt know about N.K but after they became part of the axis of evil everybody knows about them. Now N.K. will be the battlefield for movies and games. Right now its the Middle East they protray as evil and now it will be N.K. after N.k. it will be China.

By the way whats up with the insults. This is only conversation. Have you been to N.K.? Like you said you been reading daily papers. Have you read China newspapers and what they have to say about N.K.? I bet they will paint a different pic of N.k. than the papers you are reading.

Most strategy games are pretty much playable from any side in a conflict. I've blown up Americans in Rise of Nations (need the add-on pack for the US) and theCiv games. All of those were pretty successful games that let you play as one of many different sides in both fictional and historical based conflicts. The contention that no games let you play WWII from the side of Germany/Japan is also false. Heck, the boardgame Axis and Allies has been around for DECADES! Now, I understand that most games discussed have been action games, but to say that NO games let you choose the side you play from is a lie. Heck, I remember an old sci-fi space flight sim I used to play with a well written branching story that you play from two different sides that seemed to be slightly fictionalized versions of European/Western imperialist forces and impoverished natives that were fighting for independance. The fact is, the best games and movies are those that do present both sides in a conflict as more than just the "good guys" and "bad guys" but offer an imersive and thought provoking experience. The problem is that that kind of product takes more time and resources to develop.usedtype

Yeah your right I just finish World of Conflict beta and you can play as the Russians but the developers side there wont be a Russian side of the story this go around.

[QUOTE="J-REAL"]

And where did you get your info from? None of us even knew Kim Jong even exsisted until his government was name apart of the Axis of Evil.

Jack_Summersby

That's your fault for being poorly educated. I and many others have been aware of Il for a long, long time. 13 years ago I started reading the daily papers, and yes, even then, N. Korea was on our radar. Hell, didn't you study the Korean War in school?

Good point Jack, and I think you hit the nail on the head. People like J-REAL actually think they are the one "awake" and educated, when the fact is they have their eyes closed and really don't bother educating themselves on the issues. Him not knowing about Kim Jong until the papers sensationalized himillustrates this perfectly, as it just shows he only looks at what is presented to him. He obviously is not educated (if he was, he would have known about Kim Jong), andI guess that is why his views are so skewered...

But what do you expect? A person who thinks the "elites" are secretly behind propaganda schemes embedded in our video games certainly hasn't a clue in the world. Nor does he have any actual insight to how things work, and what motivates companies and their products.

[QUOTE="usedtype"]Most strategy games are pretty much playable from any side in a conflict. I've blown up Americans in Rise of Nations (need the add-on pack for the US) and theCiv games. All of those were pretty successful games that let you play as one of many different sides in both fictional and historical based conflicts. The contention that no games let you play WWII from the side of Germany/Japan is also false. Heck, the boardgame Axis and Allies has been around for DECADES! Now, I understand that most games discussed have been action games, but to say that NO games let you choose the side you play from is a lie. Heck, I remember an old sci-fi space flight sim I used to play with a well written branching story that you play from two different sides that seemed to be slightly fictionalized versions of European/Western imperialist forces and impoverished natives that were fighting for independance. The fact is, the best games and movies are those that do present both sides in a conflict as more than just the "good guys" and "bad guys" but offer an imersive and thought provoking experience. The problem is that that kind of product takes more time and resources to develop.J-REAL

Yeah your right I just finish World of Conflict beta and you can play as the Russians but the developers side there wont be a Russian side of the story this go around.

Look at any online FPS with a WWII setting to see the Axis in player's hands...RTCW Enemy Territory comes to mind. There were a lot of games that let you go up against the so called "good guys."

[QUOTE="gbarules2999"]

Time for a brain fart.

So, games like Call of Duty are propoganda, in which that they glorify certain aspects of the army, as killing terrorists. But what I have to ask is this: is it intentional propoganda? I mean, sure, you have America's Army which is built for such things to the core, but did CoD's developers say to themselves "let's make a game where the army are looked at with very pretty glasses" and make it a game? No, they went where two things are.

First, the trends. The money, where it is proven that when you shoot terrorists in some form, people will buy your game. It's a very taboo subject that will eventually move on once we get into aonther sort of confict. People want to pretend that they know and support what's happening in Iraq or whatever, when most of us don't have a clue; the games take advantage of that, and that's where the market is now (love it or hate it).

Second, the fact of the confict. The concept of a video game is appropriating conficts and letting the player get through them. Well, we have a very real confilct happening over seas right now, and so when the real life events match what a video game is in concept then why not make it based on that? It simply works, as we all know: WWII shooters are undeniably video games, and so are modern day shooters. Developers go for the easy targets, because, well, they're easy.

I know that when I fire up America's Army, I will be confronted with suggestions. Nothing stright out, but pointers that make me morally think that the Army is the right place to be. But when I fire up CoD or GRAW, those games don't have that much of that kind of thing, because it wasn't in the design documents. It simply doesn't affect the way I see life or the army or whatever, and none of it will make up my mind for me.

It'd be foolish to write it off completely, but in the end it's all fun and games, literally.

J-REAL

Your right it is all fun and games and that is good none of it will make up your mind. =)

Like I said in a past post the developers dont know what they do they are in it for the money but the people who are truely over this industry will not back certain games. Yes people will say because those games would not sell which is true, but its mainly becuase of the back lash a company will get becuase that company is going agaisnt the grain. The higher ups wants everyone to go with the grain its not about money for these people. These people print money so why it they be in it for the money. Like I said its way bigger than money for them.

The higher ups? What?

So you're saying that the US Governement is forcing Activision to make Call of Duty a propoganda machine? Is that it? Or is the Government behind the scheme to make the market like these types of games...what?

I think that intelligence osmosis is coming into affect, so I better stop trying to understand this post...it makes less and less sense the more I read it...

[QUOTE="J-REAL"]

[QUOTE="usedtype"]Most strategy games are pretty much playable from any side in a conflict. I've blown up Americans in Rise of Nations (need the add-on pack for the US) and theCiv games. All of those were pretty successful games that let you play as one of many different sides in both fictional and historical based conflicts. The contention that no games let you play WWII from the side of Germany/Japan is also false. Heck, the boardgame Axis and Allies has been around for DECADES! Now, I understand that most games discussed have been action games, but to say that NO games let you choose the side you play from is a lie. Heck, I remember an old sci-fi space flight sim I used to play with a well written branching story that you play from two different sides that seemed to be slightly fictionalized versions of European/Western imperialist forces and impoverished natives that were fighting for independance. The fact is, the best games and movies are those that do present both sides in a conflict as more than just the "good guys" and "bad guys" but offer an imersive and thought provoking experience. The problem is that that kind of product takes more time and resources to develop.gbarules2999

Yeah your right I just finish World of Conflict beta and you can play as the Russians but the developers side there wont be a Russian side of the story this go around.

Look at any online FPS with a WWII setting to see the Axis in player's hands...RTCW Enemy Territory comes to mind. There were a lot of games that let you go up against the so called "good guys."

Yeah but is there a story to it? Will it tell you why the Axis players are at war, does it give there point of view? Thats just like BF2 yes you can play 3 different fractions but there is no story to really why they are fighting. To me thats different from playing games like GRAW, R6V, and the Splinter Cells type of games that have stories.

[QUOTE="J-REAL"][QUOTE="gbarules2999"]

Time for a brain fart.

So, games like Call of Duty are propoganda, in which that they glorify certain aspects of the army, as killing terrorists. But what I have to ask is this: is it intentional propoganda? I mean, sure, you have America's Army which is built for such things to the core, but did CoD's developers say to themselves "let's make a game where the army are looked at with very pretty glasses" and make it a game? No, they went where two things are.

First, the trends. The money, where it is proven that when you shoot terrorists in some form, people will buy your game. It's a very taboo subject that will eventually move on once we get into aonther sort of confict. People want to pretend that they know and support what's happening in Iraq or whatever, when most of us don't have a clue; the games take advantage of that, and that's where the market is now (love it or hate it).

Second, the fact of the confict. The concept of a video game is appropriating conficts and letting the player get through them. Well, we have a very real confilct happening over seas right now, and so when the real life events match what a video game is in concept then why not make it based on that? It simply works, as we all know: WWII shooters are undeniably video games, and so are modern day shooters. Developers go for the easy targets, because, well, they're easy.

I know that when I fire up America's Army, I will be confronted with suggestions. Nothing stright out, but pointers that make me morally think that the Army is the right place to be. But when I fire up CoD or GRAW, those games don't have that much of that kind of thing, because it wasn't in the design documents. It simply doesn't affect the way I see life or the army or whatever, and none of it will make up my mind for me.

It'd be foolish to write it off completely, but in the end it's all fun and games, literally.

gbarules2999

Your right it is all fun and games and that is good none of it will make up your mind. =)

Like I said in a past post the developers dont know what they do they are in it for the money but the people who are truely over this industry will not back certain games. Yes people will say because those games would not sell which is true, but its mainly becuase of the back lash a company will get becuase that company is going agaisnt the grain. The higher ups wants everyone to go with the grain its not about money for these people. These people print money so why it they be in it for the money. Like I said its way bigger than money for them.

The higher ups? What?

So you're saying that the US Governement is forcing Activision to make Call of Duty a propoganda machine? Is that it? Or is the Government behind the scheme to make the market like these types of games...what?

I think that intelligence osmosis is coming into affect, so I better stop trying to understand this post...it makes less and less sense the more I read it...

LoL!

The US government and any other governments are nothing but tools also. When I say higher ups I mean the people/families that truely rule this planet. You might not believe that but two families own 80% of the world wealth and its these people who are in control of the propaganda that goes on in entertainment. The government is nothing but a tool to get pass you.

indeed propaganda is rife in video games, just look at america's army,, that game is deisigned to be a propaganda instrument,,

just take a look at some of the comments,, people are calling north koreans and iraqis' bad,,and america good???

cmon now,, i dont want to get into a political debate,, but maybe look in your own backyard before castin judgement,,

i'm sure many vietnamese people still remember agent orange,,, by the american hero's,,

[QUOTE="gbarules2999"][QUOTE="J-REAL"][QUOTE="gbarules2999"]

Time for a brain fart.

So, games like Call of Duty are propoganda, in which that they glorify certain aspects of the army, as killing terrorists. But what I have to ask is this: is it intentional propoganda? I mean, sure, you have America's Army which is built for such things to the core, but did CoD's developers say to themselves "let's make a game where the army are looked at with very pretty glasses" and make it a game? No, they went where two things are.

First, the trends. The money, where it is proven that when you shoot terrorists in some form, people will buy your game. It's a very taboo subject that will eventually move on once we get into aonther sort of confict. People want to pretend that they know and support what's happening in Iraq or whatever, when most of us don't have a clue; the games take advantage of that, and that's where the market is now (love it or hate it).

Second, the fact of the confict. The concept of a video game is appropriating conficts and letting the player get through them. Well, we have a very real confilct happening over seas right now, and so when the real life events match what a video game is in concept then why not make it based on that? It simply works, as we all know: WWII shooters are undeniably video games, and so are modern day shooters. Developers go for the easy targets, because, well, they're easy.

I know that when I fire up America's Army, I will be confronted with suggestions. Nothing stright out, but pointers that make me morally think that the Army is the right place to be. But when I fire up CoD or GRAW, those games don't have that much of that kind of thing, because it wasn't in the design documents. It simply doesn't affect the way I see life or the army or whatever, and none of it will make up my mind for me.

It'd be foolish to write it off completely, but in the end it's all fun and games, literally.

J-REAL

Your right it is all fun and games and that is good none of it will make up your mind. =)

Like I said in a past post the developers dont know what they do they are in it for the money but the people who are truely over this industry will not back certain games. Yes people will say because those games would not sell which is true, but its mainly becuase of the back lash a company will get becuase that company is going agaisnt the grain. The higher ups wants everyone to go with the grain its not about money for these people. These people print money so why it they be in it for the money. Like I said its way bigger than money for them.

The higher ups? What?

So you're saying that the US Governement is forcing Activision to make Call of Duty a propoganda machine? Is that it? Or is the Government behind the scheme to make the market like these types of games...what?

I think that intelligence osmosis is coming into affect, so I better stop trying to understand this post...it makes less and less sense the more I read it...

LoL!

The US government and any other governments are nothing but tools also. When I say higher ups I mean the people/families that truely rule this planet. You might not believe that but two families own 80% of the world wealth and its these people who are in control of the propaganda that goes on in entertainment. The government is nothing but a tool to get pass you.

its not that game developers intentionally make propaganda tools, its just that, that is where the profit is,, and its established like that, because the higher powers want our state to be as it is,,

say for example rothschild,, that family can manipulate you guys to think and feel exactly how they want you to,,

they started the feminist movement, the gay rights movement, and so forth,, they put morals into your heads, so u think that so and so are bad ,, and you guys are good people,,,,

but yeah its not a structured system where activision wanted to make proganda games, its just that the powers can manipulate circumstances for their advantage,,,

[QUOTE="Jack_Summersby"][QUOTE="J-REAL"]

And where did you get your info from? None of us even knew Kim Jong even exsisted until his government was name apart of the Axis of Evil.

J-REAL

That's your fault for being poorly educated. I and many others have been aware of Il for a long, long time. 13 years ago I started reading the daily papers, and yes, even then, N. Korea was on our radar. Hell, didn't you study the Korean War in school?

Its not that im prooly educated, and that wasnt the point. Most of the world didnt know about N.K but after they became part of the axis of evil everybody knows about them. Now N.K. will be the battlefield for movies and games. Right now its the Middle East they protray as evil and now it will be N.K. after N.k. it will be China.

By the way whats up with the insults. This is only conversation. Have you been to N.K.? Like you said you been reading daily papers. Have you read China newspapers and what they have to say about N.K.? I bet they will paint a different pic of N.k. than the papers you are reading.

Of course the Chinese newspapers will paint a different version of N. Korea than liberal US newspapers - China is a communist dictatorship with a state news agency that tows the party line. If a Chinese journalist prints something against that party line, he or she is jailed, beaten, and or killed.

As for being insulting, I apologize for saying it like that.

But so you know, N. Korea is a well known pariah and has been for 50 years. The only people that N. Korea is "new" to are young people, but they'll learn in school.

Finally, don't make the mistake that because the quote "History is written by the victors" has some truth to it, that any time the US wins a war (or ties) that we are only exposed to propganda and lies.

In the US it is very easy to get alternative points of view. Many papers, including prominent ones like the NY Times, were AGAINST the war in Iraq, and are AGAINST war with N. Korea, so you should NOT lie to yourself and others and pretend that US citizens are only getting half the story on N. Korea.

N. Korea is one of the worst police states in modern history, and they threaten the S. Korea, Japan, and the US on a daily basis.

But what do you expect? A person who thinks the "elites" are secretly behind propaganda schemes embedded in our video games certainly hasn't a clue in the world. Nor does he have any actual insight to how things work, and what motivates companies and their products.dnuggs40

rofl - when you put it like that, how do these people still believe it, dnuggs?

people are funny :)