Bioware/EA, I am dissapoint...

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"]

[QUOTE="Mazoch"] Who's talking about cutting anything. They developed an extra quest and an extra NPC while developing the rest of the game. That quest and that NPC are being offered as DLC or a pre-order incentive. That doesn't mean that it was cut. It's impossible to say if they would still have invested the money in creating that extra quest and that extra NPC if they wasn't planning to release it as DLC. Them having to make money or not is irrelevant. Who, what or where the quest and NPC was developed is also irrelevant. Consider what they are offering for what amount of money they are asking and make your choice based on that. Mazoch

Ofcourse they cut out content to sell as DLC.

DA:O, i can bet had loads of content cut out. There as day one DLC, and **** of DLC released after, while the team was busy working on DA II. Can you explain that. It was five years in development, waaay before DLC became *In*.

Also Mafia II had obviosly content cut from it.

Why 'of course'. It doesn't seem like a logical assumption to me. Consider that BioWare is a major development studio working on a major title; I would assume that they are professional enough to plan ahead and decide well in advance what DLC they are planning to release. I can't imagine that they would simply sit down and develop a game and then, after the fact suddenly decide to go back and make various code changes so they could pull out part of that content to be able to add it as DLC.

It seems far more likely to me that they, from day one, decided that they were going to budget X amount of money and man power to develop the game and budgeted Y amount of money and manpower to develop the launch DLC and Z money and manpower for the pre-order DLC and so on.

BECAUSE, the game started development in 2004, DLC didn't exist back then. So yeah they didn't plan for it, in advance.

Shale was cut content. And so was the rest of the day one DLC.

[QUOTE="charmingcharlie"]

[QUOTE="SkyWard20"] As if an altruistic video gaming company exists. BioWare wants to make a profit just like anyone else, but it IS supporting the PC by releasing exclusive, high-budget titles like The Old Republic, so yes, I do think it's doing the PC a 'favour', since there are plenty of companies that WOULD make a profit with their games on PC but decide NOT to release them; that is why I believe we should be thankful instead of equipping ourselves with a far-out sense of entitlement, because the truth is, gaming can survive just fine WITHOUT the PC. As a PC gamer, you should be thankful, instead of entitled, if not as a customer. They should be thankful that you buy their product too.SkyWard20

Then you are deluded, why do you think Bioware is releasing their games on the PC ? oh yeah it's because they know they can make money. Why do you think Bioware are doing The Old Republic MMO ? oh yeah it's because Blizzard are making $1 billion a year from WOW on the PC. Seriously I mean come on here they are not doing this as a "favour" to the PC they are doing it because they want a slice of that $1 billion Blizzard are getting.

There was nothing about "entitlement" in my post, if Bioware want my money they better damn well earn it rather than relying on me going "oh thank you thank you I am so grateful". Tell me if you want your wages at the end of the week do you have to WORK for your money or is the employer just eternally grateful that you just showed up for work ? You say we shouldn't show entitlement but you seem to be under the impression that it is ok for companies to be entitled to our money no matter what they do as long as they do it on the PC.

As for the games industry surviving without the PC, I am sure it will but I am equally sure the PC would survive without Bioware as well. I am a consumer with a spine if a company like Bioware wants my money then they better work for it and produce a product I want to buy, how I want to buy it and at a price I want to pay. That is how a consumer society works, that is the attitude I take with everything I buy be it food, fridges or luxury items that I do not need such as video games. The games industry would be in a much better shape if gamers stopped just accepting all the bull that publishers shove their way under the guise that they should be "thankful" that the game was made for them.

I'm not saying it's something they would do willingly for free, to support PC gaming. But REGARDLESS of BioWare's 'evil' intentions, they ARE supporting PC gaming, and no one's really forcing them to. Look at all the developers who get by without porting games to the PC. PC gaming does not need BioWare... and BioWare does not need PC gaming. I don't understand the disagreement we're having.

And BioWare has already earned my being thankful because there's nothing I look forward to more when I think of games except one of BioWare's future titles.

IF however, it wouldn't be profitable... they wouldn't be doing it; that much is obvious. So of course I believe PC gaming is profitable for them.

[QUOTE="Mazoch"]

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"]

Ofcourse they cut out content to sell as DLC.

DA:O, i can bet had loads of content cut out. There as day one DLC, and **** of DLC released after, while the team was busy working on DA II. Can you explain that. It was five years in development, waaay before DLC became *In*.

Also Mafia II had obviosly content cut from it.

GeneralShowzer

Why 'of course'. It doesn't seem like a logical assumption to me. Consider that BioWare is a major development studio working on a major title; I would assume that they are professional enough to plan ahead and decide well in advance what DLC they are planning to release. I can't imagine that they would simply sit down and develop a game and then, after the fact suddenly decide to go back and make various code changes so they could pull out part of that content to be able to add it as DLC.

It seems far more likely to me that they, from day one, decided that they were going to budget X amount of money and man power to develop the game and budgeted Y amount of money and manpower to develop the launch DLC and Z money and manpower for the pre-order DLC and so on.

BECAUSE, the game started development in 2004, DLC didn't exist back then. So yeah they didn't plan for it, in advance.

Shale was cut content. And so was the rest of the day one DLC.

Shale has always (and still is) free as part of the game. The only way to get Dragon Age without getting Stone Prisoner is to buy the game used (not possible on the PC) or to pirate the game.

What makes you say that it was cut? I'm not saying you are wrong but are that something that has been acknowledged somewhere or is that an assumption on your part?

Yeah, and after it gets a 9.0 - 9.5 Editor's Choice, there will be a rush of buyers.:lol:

I can't wait to run a rogue with the new capabilities.:o

Omg, after I saw the video showing Mike Laidlaw presenting on-the-fly melee then paused melee, I was stoked.:D

topsemag55

Yeah totally..the combat looks so much better this time around! I'm going rogue for DA2 too, mainly because I didn't try it out in DAO. Did you know that this time we can have an all rogue party? Hawke, Isabella, Varric and Sebastian! Should be interesting :D

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

Yeah, and after it gets a 9.0 - 9.5 Editor's Choice, there will be a rush of buyers.:lol:

I can't wait to run a rogue with the new capabilities.:o

Omg, after I saw the video showing Mike Laidlaw presenting on-the-fly melee then paused melee, I was stoked.:D

ralph2190

Yeah totally..the combat looks so much better this time around! I'm going rogue for DA2 too, mainly because I didn't try it out in DAO. Did you know that this time we can have an all rogue party? Hawke, Isabella, Varric and Sebastian! Should be interesting :D

[QUOTE="ralph2190"]

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]

Yeah, and after it gets a 9.0 - 9.5 Editor's Choice, there will be a rush of buyers.:lol:

I can't wait to run a rogue with the new capabilities.:o

Omg, after I saw the video showing Mike Laidlaw presenting on-the-fly melee then paused melee, I was stoked.:D

GeneralShowzer

Yeah totally..the combat looks so much better this time around! I'm going rogue for DA2 too, mainly because I didn't try it out in DAO. Did you know that this time we can have an all rogue party? Hawke, Isabella, Varric and Sebastian! Should be interesting :D

[QUOTE="Makari"]

omg. did you read any of the thread - stuff like that is not cut out. it otherwise would *not be in the game* if it weren't DLC.Maroxad

Umm yes, I did read the thread, and I read another one in System Wars about the same thing.

They are cutting out content from the game, people that pre order the game before Jan 11th gets it for free while those who buy it or preorders it at a later date will have to buy the content they "cut out".

This content is being made as DLC by a DLC-oriented team. This 'content' exists under the budget and the assumption that it is being sold separately. If it were not being 'sold separately,' it would not exist. That they are willing to take the separate budget/content and throw it in for people that a) preorder and thus b) pay full retail, guaranteeing the company as a whole a decent amount of money - doesn't change the origin of this content.

It's the exact same thing in terms of how the 'content' was made and the relationship to the budget, though it's a hell of a lot more obvious to the point of ridiculousness in my example.

[QUOTE="Makari"]I'm a bit of a Bioware fan too, and yeah - your reasons for disliking all of this are valid. You don't like the $60 price tag, you don't like the 1 month Steam delay (and I HATE it), and you probably don't like their games all that much to make up for putting up with things like the first two.

I'm not sure what the exclusive / PS3 thing is, though. The only 'exclusive' thing that I know of so far for the PS3 is the interactive comic, and it's supposed to replace ME1. Not really something I care about at all.charmingcharlie

I am not trying to rag on Bioware fans, if you are a fan of Bioware then naturally you are going to be a lot more accepting of certain practices than I am. I once considered myself a "Mass Effect fan". However all the bull that Bioware has been pulling soon kicked that out of me. I was all set to pre-order ME 3 but right now I do not feel like purchasing ME 3 at all.

As for the exclusive content, there are going to be several PS3 "exclusive" packs the first being the Terminus + Blackstorm gun pack which is not going to be offered to PC/360 users. Now whilst the content does not seem much, to me it is the principle of the thing. I am a Mass Effect 2 customer, I have sunk nearly $200 into the Mass Effect franchise. Now all of a sudden my money is not good enough for them because I am on the PC, that has left a pretty bad taste in my mouth. The message seems pretty damn clear to me that they are no longer interested in my money so that is up to them and I will take my money elsewhere.

The rest of that though, I still hear you. I'm still raging about not being able to buy the Signature Ed. of DA2 off Steam. I don't get the point of that, especially given that EA's still doing retail distribution for Valve's games after the last 5 years, so it's not like there's some open animosity between the two...

(edit: ugh the editor is terrible)

[QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"][QUOTE="ralph2190"]

Yeah totally..the combat looks so much better this time around! I'm going rogue for DA2 too, mainly because I didn't try it out in DAO. Did you know that this time we can have an all rogue party? Hawke, Isabella, Varric and Sebastian! Should be interesting :D

the_ChEeSe_mAn2

It barely qualifies for a Wii game. (visually)

Witcher 2 for me as well.

Looks very bad to me. 7.5 - 8.0 tops.GeneralShowzer

I disagree. I have no doubt in my mind that this will be another critical and commercial success for BioWare.

I predict 8.5 - 9.5 GS score.

No, the Terminus/Blackstorm stuff isn't PS3 exclusive - for one, my girlfriend has had it on the 360 for most of the last year. It was another pre-order code deal from GameStop, IIRC. There are no PS3 exclusive content packs - they're including all of the later DLC for the game (Shadow Broker, etc) with the base PS3 version, and it was misreported as 'exclusive' content, usually in the context of '6 hours of exclusive gameplay' or something.Makari

I do not have the Terminus/Blackstorm stuff because I went for the Inferno Armour pre-order DLC. Now my pre-order DLC has already been put up as paid DLC for ALL ME 2 users, but the Terminus/Blackstom stuff is NOT going to be offered to PC/360 gamers as paid DLC but it is going to be offered to PS3 gamers as paid DLC so in my books that counts as exclusive content because I am excluded from getting it because I am on the PC platform.

[QUOTE="Makari"]No, the Terminus/Blackstorm stuff isn't PS3 exclusive - for one, my girlfriend has had it on the 360 for most of the last year. It was another pre-order code deal from GameStop, IIRC. There are no PS3 exclusive content packs - they're including all of the later DLC for the game (Shadow Broker, etc) with the base PS3 version, and it was misreported as 'exclusive' content, usually in the context of '6 hours of exclusive gameplay' or something.charmingcharlie

I do not have the Terminus/Blackstorm stuff because I went for the Inferno Armour pre-order DLC. Now my pre-order DLC has already been put up as paid DLC for ALL ME 2 users, but the Terminus/Blackstom stuff is NOT going to be offered to PC/360 gamers as paid DLC but it is going to be offered to PS3 gamers as paid DLC so in my books that counts as exclusive content because I am excluded from getting it because I am on the PC platform.

[QUOTE="the_ChEeSe_mAn2"][QUOTE="GeneralShowzer"] Looks very bad to me. 7.5 - 8.0 tops.GeneralShowzer

It barely qualifies for a Wii game. (visually)

Witcher 2 for me as well.

Advertising dlc within the game, which Bioware did with Dragon Age is much worse than this.

Looks very bad to me. 7.5 - 8.0 tops.GeneralShowzer

Looks very bad to me as well. But I doubt it will score in that range. It is made by Bioware after all, and looks to be a cinematic experience with plenty of action.

Now given that sequence of events, do you think it's GameStop doing that, or EA/Bioware? :P Oh god... why do I bother. Haha. I go and check Bioware's forums to see where you got this idea from, and... I see you arguing with a bunch of people on there. Moreover, based on what are you trying to say that it won't be offered as paid DLC in the future? A *lack* of direct comment? I thought you were complaining about it being free for the PS3 initially, whoops.Makari

They have said these packs are "exclusive" to the PS3 THEIR words, it isn't me that is using the "exclusive" word it is Jesse Houston the producer of the PS3 version. No I am not complaining about it being free to PS3 users initially, I understand they want to offer some incentive to get a user base they crapped on to buy their product. I am complaining that this content will not be available to ALL Mass Effect 2 customers but apparently it is wrong for me to expect that.

Look you admit you are a Bioware fan and I appreciate I am not going to change your view that Bioware can do no wrong so I won't waste my time arguing this point here. I got tired of arguing that "all ME 2 customers should have access to all ME 2 content" over at the Bioware forums I don't want to start it here.

I don't even know why PC gamers are such fans of Bioware they sure as hell haven't repaid your loyalty. They were pretty quick to sell PC gamers down the river and get into bed with Microsoft making Mass Effect 1 exclusive to the Xbox 360. It was only after they were bought by EA that we got the chance of playing the game on the PC.

Look you admit you are a Bioware fan and I appreciate I am not going to change your view that Bioware can do no wrong so I won't waste my time arguing this point here. I got tired of arguing that "all ME 2 customers should have access to all ME 2 content" over at the Bioware forums I don't want to start it here.charmingcharlie

You're simultaneously quoting what they say and taking is as the sole truth (i.e. Jesse Houston quote, which was deliberately left vague *and* edited later), requesting people 'prove' otherwise - and then making inferences based on the incomplete quotes they do have, which are often being taken out of context ("PS3 exclusive!").

They're pretty obviously not allowed to say much of anything right now (like how they weren't allowed to say Jade Empire would go to PC, or that ME2 would go to PS3, or that ME1 would go to PC, or...), so wait until the game's actually out before you start raking people over the coals for things they a) haven't done yet and b) aren't allowed to talk about, anyway. No comment or direct answer is not a 'no,' which is a distinction people seem to miss often when devs are dealing with NDA's.

edit:

Advertising dlc within the game, which Bioware did with Dragon Age is much worse than this.

Cranler