Divinity Original Sin releases!

South Park The Stick of Truth was pretty polished. I also experienced less bugs in Fallout New Vegas than in Fallout 3 and Skyrim, Gamebryo is just a shitty engine so there will always be a few bugs. Alpha Protocol was pretty busted though I'll give you that.

@with_teeth26:

Alpha Protocol was and still is a mess. NWN2 had memory leaks causing CTD and scripting bugs that would screw your saves, both didn't get fixed until the first expansion. I have ZERO faith in Obsidian. If they walk the talk on Eternity I'll buy it, if they pull another NWN2 lets just say I will be less than surprised.

Obsidian got majorly fucked over with KOTOR 2. The publishers rushed them months ahead before the game was finished, forced them to cut out entire planets, characters, side plots and story. Blame the publisher for that one. Thankfully, due to the restoration mode and people waking up, in recent years it's been getting the recognition it deserves.

Hopefully the slowdown option in Pillars will help out the RtwP combat.

The new Torment is gonna be turn based.

Beat Alpha Protocol 3 times and zero crashes or game breaking bugs. NWN2 when it came out had some big bugs, but those got fixed asap, hell I crashed more in NWN1.

Also there two last games have been nearly bug free (South Park and Dungeon Siege 3) and hands down there least buggy games they have made so if anything Obsidian has improved in the bug department alot and there is really no reason to expect Pillars to be some bug riddled mess, especially when they get to put out the gaem when they want and make it how they want.

@SerOlmy:

Complete bs, unplayable at launch? Wierd, I beat both KOTOR2 and New Vegas the first week they where out. Yes they had bugs but not as many as most of say Bethesda's games. New Vegas I crashed once my first time, Fallout3, 4 times. I can see saying they have had some buggy games but unplayable sure has not been my experience. I was able to beat everyone of Obsidians games without gamebreaking bugs, unlike Bethesda who releases extremely buggy games yet gets a pass. Did you even play any of these games on release or just going by what you heard from others.

As to hating turnbased combat, that sucks man, there has been plenty of great turn based rpgs, especially older ones. Me personally I like them about even, sometimes real time is done great, sometimes turnbased is done great. sometimes they both can be crap though.

I'm really enjoying this game so far. It's hitting a happy sweet spot somewhere between Ultima 7 and Baldurs Gate 2.

The combat is the obvious highlight of the game, but I'm pleasantly surprised by how good the exploration aspects are as well. There seem to be hidden locations and loot in just about every location.

Anyway, might be a little early to call since I'm still in the first area, but it's shaping up to be...maybe the best party-based RPG since BG2?

Better than Dragons Age. Might And Magic X is also great but unlike Divinity: OS, it hangs on tight to the nostalgia cords without really adding anything new or improving upon outside of graphical upgrades.

In a lot of respects it's better than Baldurs Gate. Less spammy combat. Rather than just throwing hoards of the same enemy at you, the type of enemies and elements matter. I'm guessing perhaps that why some people wont like it. People have been use to bullshit like Mass Effect or Oblivion in which stats and and illusion of tactics are just window dressing for pointing at things until they are dead.

@kozzy1234:

NWN2 had a common memory leak that would CTD every 20-30 minutes, took months to get fixed. Broken scripting that would be a 100% progress block forcing a load of an older save before the point where the scripting broke obliterating hours of progress. That one didn't get fixed until the first expansion. To this day I have not finished NWN2. Alpha Protocol was a mess, janky animations, broken scripting, buggy combat, and lets not forget the mini-games not working properly on the PC. KotOR2, enough said. New Vegas had plenty of crash, scripting and other assorted bugs at launch. Obsidian has proven time and again that they cannot or will not bug test their games properly at launch. Even with all of that, if Eternity gets good reviews I'll still buy it, because I miss the old-school RPGs. But lets not pretend Obsidian isn't at the top of the list for "games released early and not properly tested".

As for Torment, I am really worried that they decided to go with turn-based as well. After how unsatisfying and tedious the combat is in Divinity I am expecting Torment to be the same way. It might be ok because combat isn't going to be a huge focus, but if it is as bad as Divinity, combat is going to break immersion and be a chore. I was really excited for Torment, now I'm expecting it to be meh, which sucks. Like I said previously I already got burned on the Numenera setting book.

Hopefully Obsidian can actually do a decent job on Eternity, because I would very much like one game that lives up to what the kickstarter said it would be.

I ran into more game breaking bugs and crashes in titles like ME2 (I lost count over how many times my character got stuck in the air) and Fallout 3 than I ever did in any of Obsidian's games.

The nice thing about this game is that it encourages you to think outside the box, rather than just run into the battlefield on the game's conditions, you can pretty much set up your own conditions in a fight. You can the enemy's poison against them, strong characters can set up their own barricades so to speak. Barrels are a lot of fun because when used right they can be used in plenty of fun ways. The weather can impact the way you play and you can have an impact on the weather, so this is another thing to use to your advantage. The game being turn based simply allows the game to have so much more depth than what ARPGs and RTwP RPGs lack, of course that isnt saying a lot since RTwP and ARPGs tend to be pretty darn shallow for most of the part.

Both the public in general and old school RPG fans can agree on one thing, they both want Turn Based over RTwP with inXile knowing TB was going to win that poll, and just wanted to affirm it.

Those who find the game difficult, are you playing on normal or easy (you can change the difficulty setting in the options)?

I rather have obsidian be the one's to patch the game. one time I had sith assassins instant kill me during onderon and trayus sith academy. than on another playthrough I got an endless loop of fighting some gangs on the ebon hawk on nar shaddaa. Now I am getting a ctd before going to the telos restoration zone. Seriously, I appreciate what the fans did. But it's just not the same since than if a developer patch their because the mod is still buggy.

Hmm..how come when you pause in RtwP games it doesn't break your IMMERSION then ?

Hopefully dev's take the hint.. Either go completely real time or turn based.. I am so sick of this bastardized Turn-Real time system many go since really late 90's.. They always felt so clunky yet so restrictive in the options they gave you... It was honestly my largest pet peeve about amazing games like Baldur's Gate 2 or KOTOR.

@sSubZerOo:

I completely disagree, I would take RTwP any day over turn-based.

Well, I am sure most would disagree with you, especially old school RPG fans. So there is that.

But just because I can, I will point out several reasons as to why D:OS did the right thing being turn based.

+Between Turn Based, RTwP, ATB and Action Based. RTwP is probably the least popular and TB and Action being the most popular.
+Due to the nature of the battle system, actions in Turn Based battle games tend to be much more meaningful than they are in any other style.
+Turn Based battle systems are more elegant: Simple yet provide a lot of room for depth, allows for a lot of complexity without overwhelming players.
+Turn based tend to avoid having serious pathfinding issues common with other styles.
+Turn based battles lead to less to no AI involvement on your companions, less AI means less wrestling with the AI that is once again trying to do something stupid, leading to somehow more pauses and time wasting seen in TB rpgs. In other words, it is not a clunky mess. No AI on party members make things even worse... somehow.
+Turn based RPGs tend to have far superior AIs to other styles of RPG, where an all to common tactic is to just charge at the foe and bash them up. The AI isnt perfect in D:OS, but it certainly is better than the one in DAO.
+This is Larian's dream game. The reason they went with turn based was because the devs at Larian always wanted to make a TB rpg. Let them make a battle system they are passionate about rather than trying to appease to people
+Old school RPG fans have been craving for TB games.
+Unlike RTwP, TB tends to avoid being some awkward hybrid between RTS and TB RPG.

There is only one reason I could see for this game having chosen RTwP instead.

-There hasnt been a notable RTwP game since Dragon Age: Origins whereas TB had South Park: Stick of Truth, Might and Magic X, Blackguards, Pokemon X/Y, XCOM: Enemy Unknown, Age of Wonders 3 and now Divinity: Original Sin.

uh... YES, you could. i would know. i played it like that. im sorry you cant grasp that other people like something other than what you do, but that is your own problem, not ours.

Another huge problem was the fact these RTwP systems that tried to mimic DnD games sucked with balance with so many broken and unbalanced classes and abilities.. Hell I remember that STILL being a problem in games like NWN and NWN2 where certain abilities and class skills were just flat out borked because they were built around a turn based system but the devs tried to make it work in their system.. And for some reason in all these games too, shapeshifting when transfered from pnp to the game was broken.. It's broken in BG2, NWN and NWN2.. Hell they couldn't even get it to work in Dragon Age Origins either..

Ahh yes, the attempted implementation of RTwP of a normally turn based system.

While it thankfully doesnt happen anymore, I have lost count of how many times I have argued for why making Pokemon RTwP is a bad move with crying about the lack of RTwP over and over. Much like D&D, a lot of abilities in Pokemon are built around turn based combat and when implemented outside they will come across being either awkward, out of place, unbalanced or just completely broken. My argument against these people who keep wanting turn based games to go RTwP is "Yeah because turning a Turn Based system has been such a huge success before, look at how messy the IE games and NWN games combat mechanics were". Seriously as good as BG2's encounter designs were, they were held back by awful combat mechanics, just compare BG2 and Temple of Elemental Evil mechanics-wise and there is a huge difference in quality, and this is coming from someone who was introduced to RPGs with RTwP games (BG1 was my first RPG), and even I quickly realized just how much better the turn based timekeeping method was. At times it feels like even BioWare deep inside knew that it didn't work, in all these IE games as well as the BioWare Aurora engine games, most of the attacks seen were just there for graphical effects and weren't even real attacks (no associated dice roll).

Many mechanics associated with RPGs were built and designed around Turn Based combat like you said, and when putting them out of context they just dont work. It is like training a cat to become vegetarian, sure you can probably make him eat veggie foods, but he wont really be healthy since cats were meant to eat meat.

Speaking of BioWare not being able to get it to work in DAO, neither could I when I tried to make a RTwP RPG map in WarCraft 3. I found out that,

• A)Combat would be lacking depth and challenge.
• A)or Combat would be overly complex and would turn out to be even slower (and a lot less elegant) than turn based combat
• B)Battles would last only a few seconds.
• B)or battles would be delayed due to lowered damage/far fewer attacks), but this also meant that positioning no longer mattered because running up to the enemy mage was a piece of cake and could be done losing less than 20% of max HP.
• C)Ranged characters with high movement speeds were downright broken.
• D)Attacks of Opportunities were ridiculous and really feel out of place in an RTwP setting.
• E)AI issues galore, without AI characters would usually stand around doing nothing, with AI, the game would constantly move your characters out of position.

This is also when I realized that RTwP was the problem and not the game designers.

Anyway, back to Divinity: I keep rerolling in this game. So many different team compositions and I am too indecisive, but I guess that is a sign that the devs succeeded in making multiple alluring options in term of playstyle. Whereas I typically find only one or 2 of the classes even slightly interesting to play which is the case far too often with a lot of modern RPGs.

Well designed rogue game play. Many games seem to OP them (in Skyrim you are basically god). Never really felt over or underpowered so far.

One thing I don't like though, it's too easy to steal stuff (with any class) and makes tons of fat loot from paintings and golden cutlery. They should makes them cheaper or much heavier since you can practically roll around in money by nicking and selling these.

Picked this up during the recent M&M Series Steam sale, very enjoyable...thanks for the recommendation.

Ugh, I beg to F'ing differ. Most old-school RPGs from the mid 90's to mid 00's were RTwP - BG, IWD, NWN, Torment, Arcanum (just some of my personal favs) and many others. Anything using D&D license was RTwP. So no, I would say it is most likely fairly evenly split between people who like RTwP and who like turn-based.

The problem is that "old-school RPG" means different things to different people. I am just over thirty and never played the Ultima games so I can't comment, but when I got into PC gaming in my early teens the RPGs were all RTwP. For people older than me or who played the Ultima games they might consider turn-based as old-school. Personally I can't stand it. The pacing is just so tedious and boring, I like controlling movement and spells/abilities on the fly not waiting for some lvl3 skeleton to clunk my warrior in the head with a bone club then wait 5 minutes and my lvl3 warrior will clunk him in the head with a mace. I love TBS (XCOM, Endless Space, etc...), but turn-based combat is far form enjoyable in RPGs.

Jesus, then play one of the fifty-million other modern RPGs designed for your twitchy tastes. This old man prefers clunky, boring, and tedious turn-based RPGs and is having a great time playing D:OS.

@-wildflower-:

Dude, take a rage dump. We are discussing the finer points of "old-school RPGs" and which combat system is more associated with it. I am annoyed that I backed D:OS and it turned out not to be fun, but the main point is developers capitalizing on old-school nostalgia then changing the combat system to save time/money (Torment flat out said that is why they wont do both). And point of fact, there are very few "old-school" RTwP RPGs save remakes like BG Enhanced. Even the ones that started of as RTwP got corners cut and switched over to turn-based. Only one I'm aware of that hasn't is Eternity.

And twitchy, really? Because I like watching the actual combat take place in real time and micromanage as needed as opposed to stopping between every action of every character. That's twitchy?

Just stop it. RtwP is not 'old school'. Just because you grew up with the IE games/NWN & RtwP doesn't make it old school, as most classic CRPGs were turn based.

It's a concession they made to try and draw in more casuals by making it look COOLER and more action-y.

Turn based gives you much greater control and feedback during battles, while in RtwP it's more like having to fight to interface and wrestle with the AI.

In TB I can enjoy each characters animation and actually be able to see what EXACTLY happens(stats wise) as it unfolds.

In RtwP, I unpause and it's so chaotic...colors and lights flash across the screen and I have no idea what the hell is actually going on. I have to constantly scroll back in the battle log while it's paused to see what happened exactly.

In a TB game, nothing happens until you click "move". This allows you to relax more, since you know everyone is going to do what you said and then you get to assess the situation all over. Battles are much more tactical. In RTWP you have to constantly watch everything with your finger on the pause. Sometimes, not being ready to pause can mean death, so you cannot let your attention waver.

You don't make any sense saying that you like it in X-Com, but if it's a RPG, all of a sudden it's tedious and clunky now. LOL

Arcanum was primarily turn based. While it is true that there was an Real Time option to the game, that is not how the game was meant to be played and the stats and the fact that turn based was the default option makes that much evident. It was shoehorned in after the publisher made them to.

As for whether pre-Oblivion cRPGs were turn based or RTwP primarily.

Turn Based: Wizardry, Rogue, Ultima, Bard's Tale, Fallout, Might and Magic, Wasteland, Nethack, Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil, Geneforge, Dark Sun, Pool of Radiance and its sequels, Neverwinter Nights (1991), Betrayal at Krondor, Realms of Arkania, King's Bounty

Real Time (not action): Darklands, Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR, Anachronox

Unfortunately for you then, this game was built around trying to appease to the pre-Infinity Engine era audience (namely the fans of the games listed in the Turn Based section). I really dont think the game devs gave a crap about trying to go after the IE audience, there is Pillars of Eternity for that. Hell, there is a reason the game dev listed Ultima as a main inspiration and Turn Based combat was one of the advertised features of this game from the start. You come across like someone crying at a steakhouse over the lack of vegetarian meals.

I could probably have listed more Turn Based RPGs, but I was born in 1991 and thus are not as knowledgeable in pre-BG RPGs as some people like @-wildflower- and @bussinrounds.

Yeah, I'm ok with that. I am disappointed that I don't enjoy it I accept that other do. My argument is that RTwP and and turn-based were both present in old school RPGS, most of the ones that are coming out banking on the nostalgia factor (every one I'm aware of except Eternity) are going with turn-based. I find it especially irritating since the big thing they are claiming to be is the next BG, which was most certainly RTwP. Like I said in a previous post the option would be nice, Arcanum is a good example of giving players the option. I am most annoyed with Torment going with RTwP (even more so after being so disappointed with D:OS) when the combat vote was essentially 50:50 and they went with what was easier to code for instead of trying to make it work (they admit that this was the reason they decided to go with turn-based). I admit I side-tracked a little form the topic at hand to encompass the recent kickstarter RPGS in general.

Again, old school means different things to different people. People here who are insinuating that Ultima and clones are the only real old school RPGs and they are all turn-based don't have a leg to stand on. I have been playing PC games since '97, a lot of people, like me, think of RTwP games you listed above when we think old school RPGs.

@SerOlmy: I will say in Obsidian's defense, bug testing is typically done by publisher. I remember playing NWN2 at launch and honestly don't know what bug you're talking about. I do remember it running like crap on even medium settings...it was a terrible engine they used. I think it was an upgraded engine from the original NWN but it was poorly optimized and the visuals were less than impressive given the amount of resources it required. I enjoyed AP and played through it twice, don't remember any major bugs but the game play was wonky because it was hybrid shooter/rpg...just didn't feel right. KOTOR2 you can blame Lucas Arts for that one, they moved the release date up and they were forced to scrap a lot of their work and cram the final product out the door. New Vegas 2 and Dungeon Siege 3 ran flawlessly for me but I do remember folks complaining about problems.

are people seriously trying to pass off real time combat as "old school"....?

WUUUUUUT?

turn based is like the oldest form of RPG combat. RPG combat was turn based before videogames even existed. real time combat in RPGs is a NEW development. infact, there are almost NO turn based RPGs to speak of anymore. everything has gone real time combat.

you kids born in the 90s need to realize that this shit existed long before you were born. some of us happened to grow up playing some of the first videogames..... so i think we would know.

Wait? What? Since when is switching to turn-based considered "saving time and money?" Hell, doing RTWP seems so much easier - just fill every nook and cranny with in an excessive amount of trash mobs and call it a day (see virtually every game Bioware has ever made). Designing turn-based encounters actually takes planning and consideration (when it's done right, of course, and Larian did it right).

I do agree with inXile (assuming they actually said what you claim about Torment) in that having both RTWP and turn-based in the same game is a nightmare. It nearly ruined Arcanum. Trying to appease everyone made the combat in Troika's game incredibly weak and unbalanced. Arcanum is still a fantastic game (even with crap combat) but, by trying to please their publisher and shoehorning a RTWP system onto a game that was clearly designed with turn-based game-play in mind, they made the game worse.

I'm also a bit perplexed how you could be "annoyed" about how D:OS turned out. The game plays exactly as it was advertised. Nowhere in the Kickstarter campaign did they claim, or mention, to be making a "spiritual successor" to Baldur's Gate. No, they said their game was influenced by Ultima 7 and that's pretty much the game what we got. If you have buyer's remorse because you were expecting something a little closer to BG than you have nobody to blame but yourself. Your expectations were clearly based on your own wants and not on what Larian was actually saying about the game.

And, yeah, when compared to turn-based games RTWP seems a bit twitchy, almost hack-and-slash.

I love the game, it took me some time to get into all that old style lore thing,

I co-op with a friend and the combat is great, it got Magicka enviromental damage and it's so cool.

I dropped a barrel on a group of foes, then shot a flaming arrow on it.
The mightiest heroes of all of Rivellon could not cross a simple rope, so teleporting the chest here did the job.
I told someone to steal a fish, then I told the guards about his crime.
I talked to a deaf old man and asked him about sects in Rivellon. He misheard what I said and assumed I was talking about something else.
I talked to someone who talked like Lord British and called meAvatar.

I love this game.

Fun Fact: Between Turn Based, Active Time Bar, RTwP and Action, RTwP is actually the newest of the bunch as in, it is the least old school. Yes, even action RPGs are older than RTwP rpgs.

Here's a nice guide a user made for crafting I found super useful as the game does a poor job of explaining.

http://divinity.gamepedia.com/Crafting#Weapons.2FArmor_Enchantment

Still loving this game to bits, over 100 hours played and I could see another 100 easy being put into it. Glad to see Kevin is enjoying it to on the last gs podcast thingy, he mentioned it as GOTY contenter.

One thing I find wierd is that some people are so judemental of a combat system they don't like as much as another. Ive loved real tiem combat in rpgs and loved turn based combat, I have liked them about evenly in the 25+ years I have been playing rpgs.

Divinity just so happens to be turnbased and has done it simply amazing and in a wonderful way. I suggest some of you who dislike turnbased combat and won't play this game to give it a try, it is a breath of fresh air. Yes I am looking forward to Pillars of Eternity (Obsidian is my fav devs, Larian a close 2nd), but it woudl be silly imo to toss Divinity aside just because you prefer real time combat. I must say I am just glad that I have an open mind and will give all styles of combat in rpgs a try. I have loved tons of rpgs that have all had different styles of combat, doesnt matter which type of combat but how well it is implemented and Divinity nails the turnbased combat perfectly imo.

@kozzy1234: i have tried and tried with turnbased combat in strategy and rpg`s. I just dont like it. I prefer the violent intense action of an FPS game or action rpg.

I'm 100 hours in and I'm still blown away by how fun Original Sin is! Damn awesome game, Larian deserves massive respect for having the best RPG out there today.

I look forward to almost everything in this game, the next part of the storyline, the next battle, the next armor upgrade, the next magic upgrade...it just gets better and better.

Incredible game, completely surprised me too. Came out of nowhere to steal all my time, and ALL the hype I had for DA:I and Pillars of Eternity.

One complaint I have is that although it allows you to solve quests in a mostly non linear way, this can sometimes lead to problems

In the cove where Skeletal pirates are fighting trolls, there's a ghost pirate who tasks you with solving his puzzle or blowing up, I thought id be a clever prick and teleport my characters away, leaving the room to blow up with me safe and sound. Sadly this means i didn't get the key from behind a painting or something,and now I can't open one of the doors to complete the kitty love quest

That aside, it's GOTY already for me

So that's why I couldn't open that door.

Depending on how you look at it though, not necessarily a bad thing. The creativity aspect (the fact you can do that) and the game willing to say "you have failed" are probably kind of the appeal. It makes your actions genuinely relevant.

Best damn RPG in ages, and absolutely love the turn based combat. Tons of options, combinations, strategies...it's excellent. Also agree with most people in this thread about RtwP. Frankly I never liked it and always preferred the traditional turn based systems. RtwP always came off as feeling messy and chaotic compared to turn based.

Regarding that quest with the blow up room:

I have'nt even started it yet. Am I ok starting with a rogue and some sort of caster?

I'd like to steal things and cast spells but not at the expense of too much combat prowess.

Sounds good. You have a max party size of 4 and can recruit a specialist melee character early on.

ranger sucks so far. melee does more damage than arrows and it costs like 6AP just for one attack, meanwhile my melee only costs 3. "range" only matters for like one turn, until everything moves in close.

A caster is a must. But your own PC's don't have to be one, you will come across one who joins your party above cecils manor.

I primarily created a rogue and put 5 points into crafting. While I loose out two extra scoundrel skills, I can craft powerful elemental arrows, many potions and when you hit 5+ you can apply elemental damage to weapons which practically doubles damage of all party weapons, super useful if confusing as hell.

Ranged dephends on what you make out of it. I have a ranger, a 2h warrior and a mage in my party and a ranger in my party. Good usage of my ranger is key to victory when facing foes 2 or more levels higher than me (even as early as level 3 where I had 3 level 3s vs 8 lvl 5s). Special Arrows can turn the tide of a battle when used correctly, that bouncing arrow skill combined with crossbows does serious damage to multiple foes and explosive foes and objects can safely be detonated at a distance with arrows. I also taught him air magic, so now he is good at keeping foes at bay while he kills them from a distance.

This is due to the points your spending on your characters abilities. Speed is critical along with Dex naturally. My bow shot takes 4 AP with my archer and he's been very effective up to the point I'm currently at. My only wish is for better bows to drop, they seem exceptionally rare!

So I think I'm gonna cave in and buy this game. I'll probably never finish it but at least I would have helped the developer with my purchase, since I hear nothing but good feedback from my RPG fans.

What classes should I start with roughly? I don't want a big challenge cause my gametime is limited (thinking of even playing it on easy).

Exactly, I haven't played this particular game yet, but I plan on getting 2 copies once my GF gets back from vacation for us to Co-op with.

Plus Wasteland 2 which I am looking forward to, along with Planetary Annihilation, and Jagged Alliance: Flashback. I just got SR Dragonfall myself.

There are some really intriguing games coming out, and right around the corner that are going to have a lot of my time invested in them. Odd that each of these were Kickstarter, and indie projects!

@FelipeInside:

Hey, since we are caving in to get it sometime soon as well, we might be able to set up a game for us to play together, I mean it is Turned-based so the distance between us shouldn't be an issue right?