Finally dipped my toe into the PC gaming waters...

OP. you really lucked out by playing Civilization 4 on the PC. It's possibly one of the greatest games to introduce someone to PC gaming. If you want to try some killer RPGs, I recommend playing Diablo 2. At first you might be turned off by the graphics, but trust me, the game slays. If you haven't played Knights of the Old Republic, you have to try that too. KHAndAnime

[QUOTE="Jinroh_basic"]

sigh..... i'm not surprised about how this thread is turning out to be.... pc gaming is fantastic, so is console. is it really THAT hard to give things the proper credits they deserve?

dakan, what's so surprising that the majority of posters on the pc forum are devoted to their platform of choice? can't we have a proper discussion without turning everything into a system war?

tony2077ca

[QUOTE="tony2077ca"][QUOTE="Jinroh_basic"]

sigh..... i'm not surprised about how this thread is turning out to be.... pc gaming is fantastic, so is console. is it really THAT hard to give things the proper credits they deserve?

dakan, what's so surprising that the majority of posters on the pc forum are devoted to their platform of choice? can't we have a proper discussion without turning everything into a system war?

KHAndAnime

i would rather not talk about this on a pc forum, but since you all don't seem to mind, i'll just share my 2 cents here. but i'll keep it short. :)

imo, jrpgs are vastly misunderstood by the westerners, whose judegement rarely goes beyond the face value of these games. in jrpgs, stories are often melodramatic and characters are stereotyped - that much no one can deny. but underneath these conventions are a wide range of mature themes and cultural concerns....

Jinroh_basic

Well, I just think sometimes we have to clarify things a bit, console split over discussions are plenty; one of them is of course JRPG related, and I just want to say that JRPG isn't popular on PC and at this forum not because no one here knows and has played them.

the reason you like about JRPG is precisely the reason that I waved good-bye a few years back: gameplay takes a back seat behind story. each JPRG is sorta animated movie with a mixture of episodic combats and wide teasure hunting.

I grew up and live in a culture heavily influenced by Japanese culture, and JRPG's story (and its underlying themes) isn't remotely the best Japanese popular culture (taking cinema, TV shows, manga, novels and games as a whole) can offer to say the least. if JRPG can put out games with story of the quality of a Mamoru Oshii film, and with some kinda consistency, I may let the lack of gameplay pass. but it's just not the case in reality.

anyway, hope all discussions lead to mutual understanding.

[QUOTE="KHAndAnime"]

[QUOTE="tony2077ca"] they may be devoted to it but that still doesn't give them the right to insult the consolestony2077ca

[QUOTE="with_teeth26"]

[QUOTE="tony2077ca"] i think oblivion is better then morrowind don't like this chance to hit stuff. try the last renmant its a jrpg and different from most rpgs on the pc

tony2077ca

Haha, its the Chance Hit stuff that makes Morrowind a true RPG. Its all stat based. I loved Oblivion as an Action Adventure game (with mods Oblivion is one of my favorite game of all time), but it failed on the RPG front.

well to me a real rpg is a game that u could make your character into anything you want.. a thief,fighter,mage,ranger,etc To have a choice and the decisions that u make impact the games story... this is something u can do in Wrpgs..in jrpgs you can hardly do that..the main attraction in jrpgs ..is the story thats it.. you have no say in the matter..sure you can pick whether you want your hero to pursue fire magic or lighting.,ice and so on.but that's it...I've played many jrpgs like suikoden 2, lunar silver story star complete(amazing game btw)FF6-10, and many more.. although i do love them... you hardly get this sense of control and exploration as you do in a Wrpg..

[QUOTE="Jinroh_basic"]

i would rather not talk about this on a pc forum, but since you all don't seem to mind, i'll just share my 2 cents here. but i'll keep it short. :)

imo, jrpgs are vastly misunderstood by the westerners, whose judegement rarely goes beyond the face value of these games. in jrpgs, stories are often melodramatic and characters are stereotyped - that much no one can deny. but underneath these conventions are a wide range of mature themes and cultural concerns....

teardropmina

Well, I just think sometimes we have to clarify things a bit, console split over discussions are plenty; one of them is of course JRPG related, and I just want to say that JRPG isn't popular on PC and at this forum not because no one here knows and has played them.

the reason you like about JRPG is precisely the reason that I waved good-bye a few years back: gameplay takes a back seat behind story. each JPRG is sorta animated movie with a mixture of episodic combats and wide teasure hunting.

I grew up and live in a culture heavily influenced by Japanese culture, and JRPG's story (and its underlying themes) isn't remotely the best Japanese popular culture (taking cinema, TV shows, manga, novels and games as a whole) can offer to say the least. if JRPG can put out games with story of the quality of a Mamoru Oshii film, and with some kinda consistency, I may let the lack of gameplay pass. but it's just not the case in reality.

anyway, hope all discussions lead to mutual understanding.

speaking of which, it'll be great if Mamoru Oshii can bring the coolness of Jinroh (!!!!!) to jrpgs. :D

[QUOTE="teardropmina"]

[QUOTE="Jinroh_basic"]

i would rather not talk about this on a pc forum, but since you all don't seem to mind, i'll just share my 2 cents here. but i'll keep it short. :)

imo, jrpgs are vastly misunderstood by the westerners, whose judegement rarely goes beyond the face value of these games. in jrpgs, stories are often melodramatic and characters are stereotyped - that much no one can deny. but underneath these conventions are a wide range of mature themes and cultural concerns....

Jinroh_basic

Well, I just think sometimes we have to clarify things a bit, console split over discussions are plenty; one of them is of course JRPG related, and I just want to say that JRPG isn't popular on PC and at this forum not because no one here knows and has played them.

the reason you like about JRPG is precisely the reason that I waved good-bye a few years back: gameplay takes a back seat behind story. each JPRG is sorta animated movie with a mixture of episodic combats and wide teasure hunting.

I grew up and live in a culture heavily influenced by Japanese culture, and JRPG's story (and its underlying themes) isn't remotely the best Japanese popular culture (taking cinema, TV shows, manga, novels and games as a whole) can offer to say the least. if JRPG can put out games with story of the quality of a Mamoru Oshii film, and with some kinda consistency, I may let the lack of gameplay pass. but it's just not the case in reality.

anyway, hope all discussions lead to mutual understanding.

speaking of which, it'll be great if Mamoru Oshii can bring the coolness of Jinroh (!!!!!) to jrpgs. :D

speaking of which, it'll be great if Mamoru Oshii can bring the coolness of Jinroh (!!!!!) to jrpgs. :D

Jinroh_basic

well, what the heck, this thread has already off track to the lockable proportion,

yeah, his Kerberos stuff, especially manga and animated films are good for games. however, I'm thinking more of story driven squad base RTS/TBS or SRPG. Jinroh just doesn't seem to fit the JRPG flavor.

another thing, judging from Avalon, I suspect that Mamoru Oshii is actually more of a CRPG fan...here are some diaolgues from the film (original in Polish):

*"I wish I was a Warrior like you. Then I can play solo. I'm a thief, and who the hell's ever heard of a solo Thief? huh? We're nothing without a team. We scrounge our supplies...snoop around, scout ahead. We're like tour guides."

*"...a secret level where you can't reset to escape, a level that's got to be played to the end. It's a killer. The degree of difficulty is off the charts. But then, so's the number of experience points you could get."

*

"You gonna make the switch? Warrior to Bishop? It's one way of finding the Ghost, yeah?"
"As a solo? Never."
"Well, Murphy was solo, after all."
"Yeah, but, my God, a level-12 Bishop..."
"Hey...what level are you? 12? 13? Of course, you need more than that. To switch to Bishop, you need double the experience points. You know that's no piece of cake. Look at Murphy. Took him forever. Yeah. A whole lot of time, a whole lot of cash. Still, he ended up with about as many points as anyone, I guess. Even so, didn't do him much good in the end, did they?"

*"I want us to form a team. Standard set-up of six members. Me and two other warriors, a Thief, of course...and, if possible, a Mage."

[QUOTE="Jinroh_basic"]

speaking of which, it'll be great if Mamoru Oshii can bring the coolness of Jinroh (!!!!!) to jrpgs. :D

teardropmina

well, what the heck, this thread has already off track to the lockable proportion,

yeah, his Kerberos stuff, especially manga and animated films are good for games. however, I'm thinking more of story driven squad base RTS/TBS or SRPG. Jinroh just doesn't seem to fit the JRPG flavor.

another thing, judging from Avalon, I suspect that Mamoru Oshii is actually more of a CRPG fan...here are some diaolgues from the film (original in Polish):

*"I wish I was a Warrior like you. Then I can play solo. I'm a thief, and who the hell's ever heard of a solo Thief? huh? We're nothing without a team. We scrounge our supplies...snoop around, scout ahead. We're like tour guides."

*"...a secret level where you can't reset to escape, a level that's got to be played to the end. It's a killer. The degree of difficulty is off the charts. But then, so's the number of experience points you could get."

*

"You gonna make the switch? Warrior to Bishop? It's one way of finding the Ghost, yeah?"
"As a solo? Never."
"Well, Murphy was solo, after all."
"Yeah, but, my God, a level-12 Bishop..."
"Hey...what level are you? 12? 13? Of course, you need more than that. To switch to Bishop, you need double the experience points. You know that's no piece of cake. Look at Murphy. Took him forever. Yeah. A whole lot of time, a whole lot of cash. Still, he ended up with about as many points as anyone, I guess. Even so, didn't do him much good in the end, did they?"

*"I want us to form a team. Standard set-up of six members. Me and two other warriors, a Thief, of course...and, if possible, a Mage."

hah, you definitely know your Mamoru Oshii, teardrop, but i must respectfully disagree with you. i think, instead of crpgs, he's referring to the Japanese TBS, which was already at its prime long before the genre began to find popularity on pc. :) the "switching" definitely proves my point there, because, unlike the cIass system in crpgs, "job switch" is a key gameplay element in many Japanese TBS and the earlier Final Fantasy games. i know the idea of JTBS doesn't warm up to you, teardrop, but really, check them out - it's a whole new world with a huge pedigree and countless hours of fun. :) while you wait for Armoured Princess, that is. :D

[QUOTE="teardropmina"]

before I left my PS2 somewhere in my room gathering dust, I left FFxii unfinished.

JRPG is part of young Japanese anime/manga/novel subculture. trinity soul is no different.

if you're into it, finely tuned with it...it's fine, but that doesn't appeal to everybody, including the gaming side of life.

a moving story of any JRPG could easily be overtly sentimental and melodramatic in the eyes of those who're outside of the Jpop circle.

If JRPG's story by average has the quality of a Mamoru Oshii or a Satoshi Kon films, I might give them more respect, but that's not the case. moreover, even so, that'll be because of elements other than "gameplay" which is the most important thing in gaming.

Jinroh_basic

i would rather not talk about this on a pc forum, but since you all don't seem to mind, i'll just share my 2 cents here. but i'll keep it short. :)

imo, jrpgs are vastly misunderstood by the westerners, whose judegement rarely goes beyond the face value of these games. in jrpgs, stories are often melodramatic and characters are stereotyped - that much no one can deny. but underneath these conventions are a wide range of mature themes and cultural concerns that, for instance, crpgs rarely, if ever, touch upon. Take FFX as an example. i'm sure many of you are turned away by the part when Yuna and Tidus yell together. too bad, because in its core FFX is about death, loss, reconcilation, and the courage to move on. FFVII, on the other hand, is deeply rooted in the environmental concern, a crucial aspect of the Japanese culture. I can go on for all day long.

the standard w/crpgs definitely get the point for being - looking - grittier and having more belieavable characters, but ultimately, the stories are often standard thoroughfare that allows very little concern for true human conditions. i'd go as far as saying that, in terms of story, none of the top crpgs appear to me as especially sophisticated and subtle. none except Planescape Torment, which is surprisingly philosophical.

I'm not here to change anyone's decision about jrpgs - but i'm not worried either. because knowing and loving a good story is a privilege that not everyone has - in this case, i guess i can count myself lucky. :)

Seriously...what the **** were they thinking???? I guess this kind of stuff is popular these days, and maybe my taste isn't with the "times"...but damn.

i think, instead of crpgs, he's referring to the Japanese TBS, which was already at its prime long before the genre began to find popularity on pc. :) the "switching" definitely proves my point there, because, unlike the cIass system in crpgs, "job switch" is a key gameplay element in many Japanese TBS and the earlier Final Fantasy games.

Jinroh_basic

I think you're right; guess I mistook "job switching" for dual classing in DnD, especially the one implemented in Torment. I didn't play those JTBS, however I did play plenty of clones made by Taiwanese years ago. another thing for my mistake is the mentioning of thief...from the JRPGs I've played, jobs have no role-playing value except for different skills and powers used in combats, and only noticable rouge skill is to steal money and item during combats~"~ that's not much of role-playing for me.

like i said, mate.... it's all beneath the looks. :) but of course, there's no point trying to stomach it if you reall can't. nothing wrong with that. i guess i just have a different approach that makes it easier for me to look through the often androgynous character setting and the seemingly teen-flick storyline. i look at Wakka, Laguna and Zack, and they show me how the true strength of a warrior comes from faith and love; i look at Tidus, and realise he's that lonely everyman whose quest is really all about self-conciliation. sure, i don't get to hang out with macho heroes and cut-throat antagonists which western rpg gamers often feel compelled to identify with - but that doesn't make jrpg characters any less true. quite the contrary - underneath the quirky attire they have flesh, blood, and a heart full of stories to share with us.

[QUOTE="Jinroh_basic"]

i think, instead of crpgs, he's referring to the Japanese TBS, which was already at its prime long before the genre began to find popularity on pc. :) the "switching" definitely proves my point there, because, unlike the cIass system in crpgs, "job switch" is a key gameplay element in many Japanese TBS and the earlier Final Fantasy games.

teardropmina

I think you're right; guess I mistook "job switching" for dual classing in DnD, especially the one implemented in Torment. I didn't play those JTBS, however I did play plenty of clones made by Taiwanese years ago. another thing for my mistake is the mentioning of thief...from the JRPGs I've played, jobs have no role-playing value except for different skills and powers used in combats, and only noticable rouge skill is to steal money and item during combats~"~ that's not much of role-playing for me.

in this case you're absolutely right. you see, the battlefield is often where the roleplaying is at in JTBSs, and that's where your characters really come alive with action and personality. that's also why i find King's Bounty unappealing - i have nothing to relate and in the end it's a very detatched experience. but i guess it's a matter of personal preference.