My take on piracy.

[First off no I will not "blog it"]

Disclaimer... I'm probably way off, so I'd like people to correct me (don't flame me) where I'm wrong, but this is my take on the matter.

When we talk about piracy we're talking about the illegal distribution and aqquisition of software that was never paid for either by digital download or from a retail store (this excludes gifts obviously). But what I think is overlooked far too often is the nature of the "pirate". Pirates aren't taking hard copies from retail stores and giving them out. (this is where my argument becomes flimsy) Retail stores have already paid for their copies, so they don't lose money, and the developers have alreay been paid, so they don't lose money.

What is lost is "potential sales". What this means is that rather than a pirate going out and buying a game because he has no other choice, he distributes or downloads a game rather than pay for it. However (and pay attention because this is important) it's more than likely that this person was NEVER going to buy the game anyway. The only reason he's downloading it is simply because he can. If he didn't have that option he probably wouldn't buy the game anyway.

I'm not a pirate, so I can't speak for all of them, but I'm a bit tired of the "pirates are destorying PC gaming" argument as if they've actually stopped sales, or in some way hampered sales. As a side note I go into my local stores and I couln't find Bioshock. I could not find Bioshock. I looked in 10+ retail stores and even got a couple of them to look on their databases and ring other stores, so let's say 15 stores. NOTHING. No Bioshock. I don;t own a credit card, and even if I did I want a physical copy. So what could I do? (Note I eventually found it but I didn't buy it because I wasted my money of Mass Effect [sad face]).

This is where we get the secondary pirate, the downloader. In some cases games just aren't in stores, in other cases people don't want to buy games because of DRM or because they're not sure how it will perform on their computer; or because there are no demos. Pc gaming is very tricky. If you buy a game and you open it, you generally can't return it. Now we know how PC gaming is. There are an infinate number of hardware combinations and no game is gaurenteed to work, so what incentive does the PC gamer have to fork out so much money if the prouct might not even work, or if they won;t even like the game because there's no way to take a test drive? In short, people don't want to risk their money. (I myself wish I didn't spend $150AU on Far Cry 2 and Mass Effect, and another $90AU on GTAIV, but what were my options?-- Break the law)

To conclude pirates are dealing with things that don't exist, both the products and the "lost" sales; and piracy is so rampant because PC gamers are bullied and told what they can and can't do with their own property.

What are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree with what I've said?

I somehow don't think that pirating will make developers and publishers not put DRM on their games. The way I see it, they want to kill the resale market, and they have acheived that.
chandu83

To simply put, Piracy is bad, I don't recommend it. I've known numerous Pirates that illegally downloaded games due to it's a free mechanism with no impact on their personal income. Potential lose? Yes, I agree, but there's still an impact on sales as a whole, and certainly does not make a good image on PC Gaming. Multiplatform games? Yes, potentially due to the cost of game development (basic common sense).

As a consumer what do I do? Spend your money logically and support developers that actually makes effort on our platform.

Agree with most of what you've said. How do some developers expect to sell their game if they don't release a demo?

I disagree. If someone wasn't able to download a game, they most likely would go and buy it. Not everyone, but a lot of people would, enough people to make a big difference in sales numbers. The DRM thing is getting out of control though. When I installed GTA IV, I have to sign up for this and that... it's annoying. I just want to play the damn game. Pirated software is definitely much easier to work with. Just click on the icon and play the game. So really, it's a toss up.TheDuffman26

I agree with your logic... but... I don't think you should be looking at pirates as gamers. Pirates are pirates. They'll hack anything and mess around with software because that's what they do. They're not "fans" because they're not supporting the developers, they're not doing things the legitimate way, they crack software and then play games they say can laugh at the pathetic anti-piracy attempts that were made, then they say "dis gaem was totally sux em glad i dint pay for it."

I also disagree with the sales numbers. Pirates were never going to buy the game in the first place (excuding people who download games to "test" [demo?] them, and then go buy a real copy), so they wouldn't be making up for "lost" sales, they'd be getting sales that they didn't forecast.

Buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Future-Controversial-Twenty-First/dp/1559708794

Buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Future-Controversial-Twenty-First/dp/1559708794

Baranga

[QUOTE="Baranga"]

Buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Future-Controversial-Twenty-First/dp/1559708794

DigitalExile

It's even better than the original most of the times, without dumbass copy protections, or even available earlier (FEAR 2 olololololol).

Both accepting and rejecting piracy are correct IMO.

It's even better than the original most of the times, without dumbass copy protections, or even available earlier (FEAR 2 olololololol).

Both accepting and rejecting piracy are correct IMO.

Baranga

When we talk about piracy we're talking about the illegal distribution and aqquisition of software that was never paid for either by digital download or from a retail store (this excludes gifts obviously). But what I think is overlooked far too often is the nature of the "pirate". Pirates aren't taking hard copies from retail stores and giving them out. (this is where my argument becomes flimsy) Retail stores have already paid for their copies, so they don't lose money, and the developers have alreay been paid, so they don't lose money.

okay think of it this way if the store buys 300k copies of halo 55 for the pc the devs do get the money from gamestop so only 200k sell in the first month ouch bad sales well why? becuase 1/3 of the people stole it. well gamestop orders 100k more copies for month 2 only 80k more sell the store doesnt buy any more from devs =( the devs probadly dont make a sequel do to bad sales good games get wasted =( 4 months later due to bad sales its in the bargin bin =(

now in a perfect world store buys 300k copies of halo 55 for the pc they sell 280k store buys more most of them sell aswell game sells well for 12 more months

then gets a price drop soon a sequel is realeased

[QUOTE="TheDuffman26"]I disagree. If someone wasn't able to download a game, they most likely would go and buy it. Not everyone, but a lot of people would, enough people to make a big difference in sales numbers. The DRM thing is getting out of control though. When I installed GTA IV, I have to sign up for this and that... it's annoying. I just want to play the damn game. Pirated software is definitely much easier to work with. Just click on the icon and play the game. So really, it's a toss up.DigitalExile

I agree with your logic... but... I don't think you should be looking at pirates as gamers. Pirates are pirates. They'll hack anything and mess around with software because that's what they do. They're not "fans" because they're not supporting the developers, they're not doing things the legitimate way, they crack software and then play games they say can laugh at the pathetic anti-piracy attempts that were made, then they say "dis gaem was totally sux em glad i dint pay for it."

I also disagree with the sales numbers. Pirates were never going to buy the game in the first place (excuding people who download games to "test" [demo?] them, and then go buy a real copy), so they wouldn't be making up for "lost" sales, they'd be getting sales that they didn't forecast.

^ I just read your last comment, and I think you have it backwards. It is the gamers responsibility not to pirate games, not the developers.TheDuffman26

[QUOTE="TheDuffman26"]^ I just read your last comment, and I think you have it backwards. It is the gamers responsibility not to pirate games, not the developers.portujoel5

Commenting on the highlighted part.

It's a common critisism of the game industry (probably any industry out there). While I'm sure your right I think the opposite is true as well. Do gamers really care about the individual developers who's writing the code and designing the games, do they care about the developers profit and ability to keep their studio running? Or do they 'just' care about the games? In other words, I do think your right developers mainly care about the money, but I don't think gamers are any diffrent.. they mainly care about the games.

Regarding the piracy and potential lost sales. I don't think anyone can argue that of course not all pirates would have bought a copy if they couldnt download it for free just like I don't think anyone can reasonable argue that piracy dosent reduce the number of sales by some amount. I think what is currently causing the conserns is the incredible number of games that are being downloaded. Right now your typically seeing around 10 illegal downloads for each sold copy! Thats a bloody vast number.

On consoles it's generally the opposite. One download for every 10 sold copies. These obviously differ from game to game but the overall trend appear to be pretty consistant. In addition to that those numbers are based on jsut the public torrent sites so they don't even take into account piracy over irc, use-net, private torrent sites, file share piracy, FTP's or people making and selling hard copies of said games.

I don't think gamers are any diffrent.. they mainly care about the games. I strongly disagree. When a publisher gets money for a game it does not care if it comes from a teenager, an adult, a senior, or whatever... Green is green. But when a gamer spends money, he usually spend it on a game he likes... rewarding companies with good products, and somehow punishing the companies with inferior products. So it is not the same, even if not conscious of his choice, the gamer cares about the company because buying the game is a vote for the developers. Also have a look at gamer forums. Just look at what people say about companies like valve, Bioware, or Bethesda compared to less ambitious companies. You will see that gamers care A LOT, and know the developpers, and this translate often into sales. So I disagree, gamers do care about developers... Especially about developers that reciprocate the care. Valve is a good example of this.candoitagain

The first part really reinforces my point. They reward companies for what they deem good products. They don't care about what conditions the developer worked under, what funding they did or did not have, they care about the games and buy the games and products they like. I'm not saying thats wrong, but I don't think it's any diffrent from what the developers are doing. Developers first and formost (but not exclusivly) care about the 'green', gamers first and formost (but not exclusivly) care about the product.

You are right that gamers develop loyalties towards companies for various reasons (supporting 'their' platform, making games they like, not including DRM and so on), Developers are not that diffrent. They do care (I work in the games industry so I know first hand :)). But while a gamer might support, like or argue on the behalf of Valve, the bottom line is going to be the games they can buy from valve or others. I actually think you said it better than me in the post right after mine. At the end of the day it's a sale and a product.

Piracy has nothing to do with copying. Its about violating license aggrements. Basically, you make promises and reneg on those promises. By using the software, your legally obligated to abide by the EULA. Copying the software directly conflicts with almost every EULA you come across. What does these mean?

Integrity. People who copy or "pirate" games have none. Through their actions they are basically telling everyone that they are pieces of crap who can't be trusted. Its theft, regardless of whether people think its victimless or not. Its no different than stealing a car, or telling yoru mother your need money for food, borrowing it, then buying drugs with that money, because you had to violate an agreement with her to buy food in order to get the drugs.

I've heard it said that many "pirates" are younger people who didn't have money to buy the games in the first place, therefore no sales were lost in the process. I won't argue this point, because on some level its probably true. However, its still wrong, regardless of how you spin it, because integrity is always a personal thing. Where am I going with this? People who pirate are liars. By using software illegally, the lie comes in the form of usage, because by using it he/she had to lie to those who distributed that they had purchased it legally.

So, in short, I'd like to say that I find people who pirate to have no self integrity, no self awareness, no consideration for people who create the content....well basically all around rude.

If you get offended by this, just think about it this way. I'm on judging based on actions. If you cheat, your a cheater. If you lie, your a liar. If you steal, your a thief. Simple as that. Forget about the legality of it. This is a simple judgement of morality and ethics. The law is merely the facilitator.

Thats my take on piracy. Actions speak louder than words.

EDIT : everyone currently has the right to make one backup of their legally owned software. This is not about that.

okay think of it this way if the store buys 300k copies of halo 55 for the pc the devs do get the money from gamestop so only 200k sell in the first month ouch bad sales well why? becuase 1/3 of the people stole it. well gamestop orders 100k more copies for month 2 only 80k more sell the store doesnt buy any more from devs =( the devs probadly dont make a sequel do to bad sales good games get wasted =( 4 months later due to bad sales its in the bargin bin =

now in a perfect world store buys 300k copies of halo 55 for the pc they sell 280k store buys more most of them sell aswell game sells well for 12 more months

then gets a price drop soon a sequel is realeased

07pops07

Hackers are the people who actually develop the cracks, they are few and far between. But thousands of gamers (potential sales) are the ones who download from these hackers/pirates on torrent sites, and just like that all those potential sales are lost and the game developers suffer. That is the problem.TheDuffman26

So let's say a store buys 20 copies of a game and plans to sell those but only sells 15, the other 5 sales aren't lost to pirating, because those pirates would have been extra sales (sale 21, 22, 23, 24 etc), which is why I disagree that pirating is hurting the industry.

[QUOTE="07pops07"]

okay think of it this way if the store buys 300k copies of halo 55 for the pc the devs do get the money from gamestop so only 200k sell in the first month ouch bad sales well why? becuase 1/3 of the people stole it. well gamestop orders 100k more copies for month 2 only 80k more sell the store doesnt buy any more from devs =( the devs probadly dont make a sequel do to bad sales good games get wasted =( 4 months later due to bad sales its in the bargin bin =

now in a perfect world store buys 300k copies of halo 55 for the pc they sell 280k store buys more most of them sell aswell game sells well for 12 more months

then gets a price drop soon a sequel is realeased

DigitalExile

Hackers are the people who actually develop the cracks, they are few and far between. But thousands of gamers (potential sales) are the ones who download from these hackers/pirates on torrent sites, and just like that all those potential sales are lost and the game developers suffer. That is the problem.TheDuffman26

So let's say a store buys 20 copies of a game and plans to sell those but only sells 15, the other 5 sales aren't lost to pirating, because those pirates would have been extra sales (sale 21, 22, 23, 24 etc), which is why I disagree that pirating is hurting the industry.

[QUOTE="DigitalExile"]

[QUOTE="07pops07"]If the store isn't selling it's not going to buy more stock. Video games are not perishable. If they have too many that run into month 2 they won't restock (or they'll stock to expected forecasts for month 2 [which will be lower than month 1 obviously]).

[QUOTE="TheDuffman26"] Hackers are the people who actually develop the cracks, they are few and far between. But thousands of gamers (potential sales) are the ones who download from these hackers/pirates on torrent sites, and just like that all those potential sales are lost and the game developers suffer. That is the problem.TheDuffman26

So let's say a store buys 20 copies of a game and plans to sell those but only sells 15, the other 5 sales aren't lost to pirating, because those pirates would have been extra sales (sale 21, 22, 23, 24 etc), which is why I disagree that pirating is hurting the industry.

[QUOTE="TheDuffman26"][QUOTE="DigitalExile"]But in my opinion "potential sales" are sales that aren't currently on the shelves.

So let's say a store buys 20 copies of a game and plans to sell those but only sells 15, the other 5 sales aren't lost to pirating, because those pirates would have been extra sales (sale 21, 22, 23, 24 etc), which is why I disagree that pirating is hurting the industry.

DigitalExile

the 2nd part, more specifically "because those pirates would have been extra sales (sale 21, 22, 23, 24 etc), which is why I disagree that pirating is hurting the industry." There is no such thing as an extra sale. A sale is a sale, the higher the better.TheDuffman26

as a general rule, people that pirate do it because they can get something for free and with little effort. they then hide behind some morale high-ground that it is out of principal or they use it to "try it first", but they never ACTUALLY buy the full version of the game after they "try it". Some also claim that they do it because the company they steal from only makes crap games... but it is good enough to steal and play.

Anyone who comes in here ranting that I am wrong ismore than likelyone of these people.

Some also claim that they do it because the company they steal from only makes crap games... but it is good enough to steal and play.

weirjf

Nobody knows how good a game is unless they try it. So it's not "good enough to steal and play".

[QUOTE="TheDuffman26"] the 2nd part, more specifically "because those pirates would have been extra sales (sale 21, 22, 23, 24 etc), which is why I disagree that pirating is hurting the industry." There is no such thing as an extra sale. A sale is a sale, the higher the better.DigitalExile

as a general rule, people that pirate do it because they can get something for free and with little effort. they then hide behind some morale high-ground that it is out of principal or they use it to "try it first", but they never ACTUALLY buy the full version of the game after they "try it". Some also claim that they do it because the company they steal from only makes crap games... but it is good enough to steal and play.

Anyone who comes in here ranting that I am wrong ismore than likelyone of these people.

weirjf

[QUOTE="weirjf"]

Some also claim that they do it because the company they steal from only makes crap games... but it is good enough to steal and play.

GodLovesDead

Nobody knows how good a game is unless they try it. So it's not "good enough to steal and play".

it's called a demo, and their is a demo for nearly every pc game.TheDuffman26

None of those are reasons to pirate a game. If you don't like a game for any kind of reason, because it offers little value or creativity, is overpriced, is drm'd, etc... then don't buy it. Pretty simple. TheDuffman26

Doesn't really make sense to say, "the game offered little value, so I stole it!", or "the game is overpriced, so I stole it!". TheDuffman26

I don't blame developers for placing drm on their products, I blame the pirates. Pirates are the cause, and DRM is the effect. It's a vicious cycle.TheDuffman26

Speaking for myself, I can say that I care about developers. chandu83

Right? And since when did they care about you? This is business from their end and so should it be from yours.
Now, I do not encourage people to pirate their games/movies/music/whatever, but I do recommend
that we show our dissatisfaction by not bying. I can easily live without all these bugg ridden poor excuses
for entertainment that are showed in our faces on a regular basis.

I don't think its a coincidence that over 50% of the voted worst movies ever on IMDB is from 2000 and onforth.
People are sick and tired of getting ripped off and they have started to realise that 50$ (even more here in
europe) for a game and some €25 for a DVD is way to much for the mainstream-mass produced-crap.
Could it be that this is the reason for why the industry is crying crocodile tears over falling sales figures (which
I seriously doubt in the first place)?

I also refuse to pay money and spend man-days on Q&A which the producers/developers should have done in
the first place. "It will be patched.." is not good enough. I can buy that you can't forsee everything even with
an extensive Beta and Q&A procedure, but for the love of god, some of these games are not playable from
out of the box. They should not, and I repeat NOT, have been released without including atleast the 2 first
patches in the vanilla version. They are spitting in our faces and then they CHARGE us for the "pleasure".

The industry (gaming/movie and music) are charging us for a product and if the product is not good enough,
noone will pay for it. Compare it with a car, do you seriously think that a car company could sell a ten-year
old model for the same price as a new car? No. Would they cry tears over the "evil market"? No.
They go out of business. As simple as that. They were not good enough and pay the price and the same
should apply for the industry. If you can't take the heat, get out of the sauna and start doing something else.

They clearly show their contempt for us when we ask for help because, i.e. a game doesn't even work properly
and then at the other end they are begging for sympathy? Jesus. H. Christ.
They can all go out of business for what I care. I don't need them. It will leave space for the ones that
really deserve attention and that actually tries to do something different.

If you are a stinkin' PIRATE...

STOP IT! REPENT NOW!

God may still have mercy on your soul!

Oh and if not for the wrath of God, don't do it because its really a pretty lame thing to do.

[QUOTE="chandu83"]Speaking for myself, I can say that I care about developers. azynkron

Right? And since when did they care about you? This is business from their end and so should it be from yours.
Now, I do not encourage people to pirate their games/movies/music/whatever, but I do recommend
that we show our dissatisfaction by not bying. I can easily live without all these bugg ridden poor excuses
for entertainment that are showed in our faces on a regular basis.

I don't think its a coincidence that over 50% of the voted worst movies ever on IMDB is from 2000 and onforth.
People are sick and tired of getting ripped off and they have started to realise that 50$ (even more here in
europe) for a game and some €25 for a DVD is way to much for the mainstream-mass produced-crap.
Could it be that this is the reason for why the industry is crying crocodile tears over falling sales figures (which
I seriously doubt in the first place)?

I also refuse to pay money and spend man-days on Q&A which the producers/developers should have done in
the first place. "It will be patched.." is not good enough. I can buy that you can't forsee everything even with
an extensive Beta and Q&A procedure, but for the love of god, some of these games are not playable from
out of the box. They should not, and I repeat NOT, have been released without including atleast the 2 first
patches in the vanilla version. They are spitting in our faces and then they CHARGE us for the "pleasure".

The industry (gaming/movie and music) are charging us for a product and if the product is not good enough,
noone will pay for it. Compare it with a car, do you seriously think that a car company could sell a ten-year
old model for the same price as a new car? No. Would they cry tears over the "evil market"? No.
They go out of business. As simple as that. They were not good enough and pay the price and the same
should apply for the industry. If you can't take the heat, get out of the sauna and start doing something else.

They clearly show their contempt for us when we ask for help because, i.e. a game doesn't even work properly
and then at the other end they are begging for sympathy? Jesus. H. Christ.
They can all go out of business for what I care. I don't need them. It will leave space for the ones that
really deserve attention and that actually tries to do something different.

Perhaps they don't care about me as a customer. I agree with what you are saying. We shoud not encourage half hearted attempts at entertainment. So I protest by not buying, but not by pirating. That would not solve the problem. If people were to show their dislike for the product by not buying it, and spending their money wisely, then I am sure we would see less buggy games and bad console ports.

Trust me on this one.

So the next time you want to buy a game, make sure you read the reviews, play the demo, watch videos and then spend your money. It doesn't matter if you can afford to splurge on games. The point is to appreciate quality, and the best way to do that is by paying for it.

Whats destroying gameing is the DRM and scare of piracy. Instead of lowering game costs and supporting titles better and working with gamers, they are try to go against gamers which ultimatly increases piracy.

Whats destroying gameing is the DRM and scare of piracy. Instead of lowering game costs and supporting titles better and working with gamers, they are try to go against gamers which ultimatly increases piracy.

Wasdie

Games have been the same price for as long as I can remember. There is nothing wrong with the price of games. How many other forms of entertainment can you get 20+ hours of entertainment for $50?

And "working with gamers"? So many games get patches, mod support, user websites and forums, free online support, customer support, free DLC, and many other things. The companies provide demos, screenshots and movies, copies to game sites/publications to review, and god knows how much else. What more do you want them to do? My god man...game companies practically bend over backwards to try and sell us a game.

What's hurting (not destroying) the game industry is the people stealing the games, robbing developers and publishers of money they should have earned.

So wrong...!! Trust me, a lot of games are not available for download online and are not found in shops. I tried to buy Planetscape : torment recently, and it was very hard to find a copy. I finally found one, but a lot of people would have given up and just pirated it seeing how hard it is to find. Another (recent) example is Drakensang, which is an euro RPG that was released last month but was hard to find in shops because they ordered very few copies and it was out of stock everywhere. I was lucky to find it on Steam. (I am in Canada by the way!) [QUOTE="TheDuffman26"] That is exactly what is happening right now. Thanks for at least acknowledging that there are legitimate reasons for not buying those games. [QUOTE="TheDuffman26"]Doesn't really make sense to say, "the game offered little value, so I stole it!", or "the game is overpriced, so I stole it!". candoitagain

I don't blame developers for placing drm on their products, I blame the pirates. Pirates are the cause, and DRM is the effect. It's a vicious cycle.TheDuffman26

This is exactly the kind of rationalization I was refering to in my original post. This post should be the poster-child. They always have some excuse or reason.

In the end: if gaming is so poor, so expensive, so lame...they need a different hobby besides being a thief.

"They"? Who are those "they" you refer to? Pirates? So I try to rationally analyze the situation and come up with solutions, and in your failure to come up with sound arguments, you just classify everyone as a pirate and move on. Funny thing is, I probably gave more money to the game industry than you have ever done, or ever will. But in your blindness, you just classify anyone as a thief, as soon as they try to understand or explain the source of the problem. You are like those who called people unpatriotic and traitors as soon as they opposed war on Iraq, silencing them without the need for arguments. Convenient. But fine. Have it your way. I'll stay clear of this debate until someone with a brain can actually bring something to the discussion instead of just calling people thiefs and calling it a day.candoitagain

They; the people who are stealing.

I find it convenient that people who like to steal games have an entire list of reasons why it is OK. In the end, the only answer that matters is; if you don't like it, let your wallet do the talking. If it is worth playing, buy it. If you want to know how good it is first; play a demo, try it at a friend's house, find a site or magazine that agrees with your taste most of the time. If you buy it and hate it, put it for sale on a site like half.com and get most of your money back.

The problem with it all is that just because it isn't a physical thing it is suddenly OK to steal it. The problem with that way of thinking is that the product costs the same whether you get the download version or the hard copy and therefore costs the developers the same amount in future revenuewhen it is pirated. So, by all means pirates... feel free to go to the store and swipe a copy off of the shelf and see where it gets you. Then you can explain how it isn't stealing.

by the way, I have been gaming without piracy since PONG was a new release, so just keep thinking you have supported gaming more than me kiddie

If you buy it and hate it, put it for sale on a site like half.com and get most of your money back.

weirjf

Hurts the devs:)